Total removal of 2yo racing for the benefit of the industry

[Danno]

the title of this thread ( Removing 2yo racing) is obviously going to get a few people off side, but I ask people to step back and take a breath before launching anything.

Firstly I think we should honestly ask the question...why did anyone think racing 2yo's was a good option.

Secondly, how did this actually get off the ground in a "democracy"

and third,

how on earth have so many people been seduced into thinking the 2 yo racing hype was sustainable in our particular horse game?

cheers,
Dan

[Mitch]

Hi Dan,

I'm interested to hear your thoughts on why you think we dont need it and how the industry will benefit from removing it?

Cheers,
Mitch.

[Triple V]

Hi Dan,

I'm interested to hear your thoughts on why you think we dont need it and how the industry will benefit from removing it?

Cheers,
Mitch.


[VVV] That makes two of us.

[Danno]

G'day Mitch and Jamie,
I posted three questions in the thread, would you like to have a go at providing your opinion on those?

the questions are basically,

Why? ( did we even start racing 2yos)

How? ( who/what caused the big $$$ for 2yo racing)

Sustainability? ( how much longer will it take to kill every owner out of the game)

Cheers,
Dan

[thepacingman]

2YO racing in both codes can be defined by one word - GREED.
It's another example of the "get rich quick scheme" which is so prevalent in today's world.

If 2YO racing is held what should happen is that the prize money for any 2YO race should not be greater than the base prize money for the meeting.
No Pacing Gold, Breeders Crown, Golden Slipper, Blue Diamond etc. type races should be allowed.

[HISGEN65]

I am not against 2YO racing but I am dead set against the amount of focus & prizemoney that is thrown at it..
Way too many impressive 2YO's & 3YO's end up disappearing into the "stats" vortex not to mention the "wastage" in general.
I think the sport would be far better off spreading the prizemoney across the board..I guarantee we would see alot more genuine FFA horses
& most importantly a bigger pool of horses which inturn means more participants at every level which our sport is crying out for.
Its such a ludicrous situation when you think about it...a handful of horses racing for $100K with only 1 or 2 capable of winning it(1 in QLD)
when the true battlers,which make up a big majority of our sport,are out there racing week in week out for 2 fifths of ****all

[HarnessFan]

I totally agree, not so much the removal of 2yo racing, but the removal of feature races.
I believe that a 2yo is not physically ready to race without significant wear and tear.
You can talk to most in the industry and they will agree - "but I have to, that is where the money is"

[Bandito]

Seeing as though we are being controversial. I cannot remember his name or how long ago it was (I am old enough to have memory problems when it comes to details!) but I do remember a leading American trainer who specialized in 2yo's and then moved them on - no matter how good they were. He believed there was a greater chance of ability and legitimate training skill prevailing in 2yo races and he was not prepared 'to compete with the chemists' in the older races!

[Mighty Atom]

Have to agree with the big money for two year olds being removed. High probability that you will not have a horse as a 3, 4 or 5 year old if over-raced as a 2 year old and I don't think the industry can afford this.

[aussiebreno]

G'day Mitch and Jamie,
I posted three questions in the thread, would you like to have a go at providing your opinion on those?

the questions are basically,

Why? ( did we even start racing 2yos)

How? ( who/what caused the big $$$ for 2yo racing)

Sustainability? ( how much longer will it take to kill every owner out of the game)

Cheers,
Dan

the title of this thread ( Removing 2yo racing) is obviously going to get a few people off side, but I ask people to step back and take a breath before launching anything.

Firstly I think we should honestly ask the question...why did anyone think racing 2yo's was a good option.

Secondly, how did this actually get off the ground in a "democracy"

and third,

how on earth have so many people been seduced into thinking the 2 yo racing hype was sustainable in our particular horse game?

cheers,
Dan
1) One extra year earning income is better than paying costs for no return. Cue short term investment type whinge. So what? If trainers have a horse up and pacing and ready to race at two why should he have to turn it out just so an arbitary date on the calendar tells him his horse is now ready?

2) Wouldn't disallowing 2yo racing be more against democracy? Should have the freedom to race 2yos. Short term investment would be a key one. Cue whinge. But what's wrong with that?

3) 2yo racing has been sustained for a long time now and is growing pretty healthily compared to industry as a whole. Bit rich saying 2yo racing is killing owners out of the game? Any evidence or even a statement on why you think so?

[mightymo]

Nobody says you have to race a horse at 2. No different to drafting footballers at 17. Those that are ready, play in their first season. Others may not play for 2-3 seasons.

Im the mightyquinn raced 8 times as a 2yo. Racing better than ever now as a 9yo.

Our Sixpence raced 7 times as a 2yo. Almost 7 now and had her best ever season.

Forever Gold raced 15 times as a 2yo and now in career best form

Washakie raced 6 times as a 2yo and still racing in GC company at 9

Has the Answers - the ultimate war horse raced 15 times as a 2yo and still very competitive at the FFA level

These are just a few examples I quickly looked up. Im sure there are countless others. The bottom line is that some horses mature early and others later, but just because you race at 2 doesnt mean you wont be racing successfully much later on.

[Mighty Atom]

I should probably retract that statement about removing the big money from 2 year old racing because it is taking away the choice to race a horse that has matured early but I do know over many years
I have seen many outstanding young horses show great promise as a 2 year old and when bought back for their 3 & 4 year old campaign have been extremely disappointing. Harvey gives some good examples
of horses that have raced on but I guarantee there are just as many that haven't and you would be hoping that a 2 year old that's shown superiority over its rivals to continue the pattern.

[mightymo]

Lombo Pocket Watch is the best 2yo I have seen race. He was a very, very good 3yo but nowhere near as dominant and then as a 4yo and older he came back to the pack.

Some may say that if he never raced at 2 he would have been much better at 3 and onwards. On the other hand, he may have been no better and instead missed out on being the special 2yo that he was.

[Greg Hando]

To the first question Danno i know 2yo's were racing in 1939 as the family won the Goulburn Sapling Stakes back that far.I have a picture of it somewhere the only reason i know that far back. I think a lot of the 2yo's going around shouldn't be, they just aren't ready yet but a lot of that come's from greed and stupidity by pushing them to early when not ready. Bathurst alway's has a good line up for the crown but the Breeders Challenge fields were very ordinary as far as number's were concerned, why is this i wonder.

[aussiebreno]

Lombo Pocket Watch is the best 2yo I have seen race. He was a very, very good 3yo but nowhere near as dominant and then as a 4yo and older he came back to the pack.

Some may say that if he never raced at 2 he would have been much better at 3 and onwards. On the other hand, he may have been no better and instead missed out on being the special 2yo that he was.Good point Harvey. One just needs to look at the inconsistencies of the AFL draft and or junior champs in any sport to see that things change as some mature.

[HarnessFan]

Here are the last few APG 2y0 winners - not one champion (except Majestic Mach)

2002
12
(Melb)
BLACK LINE (T J Robinson)
1609m
2:00.0
2003
13
(Bris)
KATHRYN DANCER (K E Gath)
1609m
1:58.0
2004
14
(Syd)
EMMAS ONLY (K E Gath)
1760m
1:58.2
2005
15
(Melb)
SAME OLD MACRAY (A E Tubbs)
1609m
1:58.2
2006
16
(Bris)
LOMBO POCKET WATCH (G J Fitzpatrick)
1660m
1:56.9
2007
17
(Syd)
GREG KELLY (B A Harpley)
1770m
1:59.3
2008
18
(Melb)
BUS TO HARLAND (G Lang)
1609m
1:58.6
2009
19
(Bris)
CUTTHEATTITUDE (J C Brown)
1660m
1:57.0
201020(Syd)ROYAL VERDICT (I J Dornauf)1609m1:57.1201121(Melb)MR NICKEL (G R Sugars)1720m1:56.5201222(Bris)MAJESTIC MACH (G W Dixon)1609m1:55.8

[strong persuader]

Whilst I am not against 2yo racing, I am definitely against 2yo's that get busted in an endeavour to be a 2yo!

I like to point out to people that when we start talking about millionaire horses, we are talking about older horses that have won InterDominions and Miracle Miles etc, though if you have a handy 2yo, only a fool would not have a crack at putting some money in the bank account.

Here is an article that suggests that if we think we are saving them by not racing them at 2, we may be robbing both the horse and ourselves!
http://horsetalk.co.nz/2013/07/14/study-finds-no-adverse-effects-in-racing-tbs-as-two-year-olds/#axzz2ZCqnr5Od

[Gtrain]

Here are the last few APG 2y0 winners - not one champion (except Majestic Mach)

2002
12
(Melb)
BLACK LINE (T J Robinson)
1609m
2:00.0
2003
13
(Bris)
KATHRYN DANCER (K E Gath)
1609m
1:58.0
2004
14
(Syd)
EMMAS ONLY (K E Gath)
1760m
1:58.2
2005
15
(Melb)
SAME OLD MACRAY (A E Tubbs)

1609m
1:58.2
2006
16
(Bris)
LOMBO POCKET WATCH (G J Fitzpatrick)
1660m
1:56.9
2007
17
(Syd)
GREG KELLY (B A Harpley)
1770m
1:59.3
2008
18
(Melb)
BUS TO HARLAND (G Lang)
1609m
1:58.6
2009
19
(Bris)
CUTTHEATTITUDE (J C Brown)
1660m
1:57.0
201020(Syd)ROYAL VERDICT (I J Dornauf)1609m1:57.1201121(Melb)MR NICKEL (G R Sugars)1720m1:56.5201222(Bris)MAJESTIC MACH (G W Dixon)1609m1:55.8


Gee if Lomobo Pocketwatch isn't a champion your a hard task master!! Emma's Only returned the next season to win the Vic Derby and Greg Kelly was the fastest horse I have ever seen. He was quite simply too fast for his own legs. Remember that the APG is not an open invite to all 2yos in the land. It is a sales graduate race.

[HarnessFan]

I think the thread is more alluding to the fact that good 2yo's are very unlikely to be competitive in grand circuit races due to wear and tear. My list is therefore self explanatory. Yes I agree, some of these may be lucky to have some residual soundness left to be competitive as 3yo's.

[mightymo]

In Emmas Only year, Make me Smile and Sir Galvinator both raced in the final
In Same Old Macray's year, Special Albert and I am Sam both raced in the final
In Greg Kelly's year, Rohan Home ran 3rd
In Bus to Harland's year, Garnet River made the final
In Cuttheattitude's year, Chariot King ran 2nd

All this shows is that whilst the winner may not go on, there are many others that did go on to be FFA horses

[mightymo]

But if they dont race at 2, there is nothing to suggest that they would turn out to be compettive at GC level. They might have just been well gaited, early maturing types

My daughters play rep basketball. The kids that were the best 2 and 3 years ago are no longer the best. Some of them simply havent grown much and are now too small to compete against the bigger girls who were late maturers

[mightymo]

Blacks a Fake raced 5 times as a 2yo.

In the end i believe its up to the trainer that you entrust your horse with. Some will push too hard, but there are plenty good horsemen and horsewomen that can do the right thing by you and your horse and include racing at 2

[Mitch]

G'day Mitch and Jamie,
I posted three questions in the thread, would you like to have a go at providing your opinion on those?

the questions are basically,

Why? ( did we even start racing 2yos)

How? ( who/what caused the big $$$ for 2yo racing)

Sustainability? ( how much longer will it take to kill every owner out of the game)

Cheers,
Dan

C'mon Dan,

You don't start a thread like this without having an opinion yourself. So please enlighten us with your opinion?


Mitch.

[HarnessFan]

Ah Blacks A Fake, what a fantastic example of how to produce a grand circuit horse.
Race four times as a 2yo in the last month of the season to knock out the greenness and then 8 times as a three year old followed up by a one year spell.
This is the last horse I would market as a 2yo going on to be a grand circuit horse.
This is the classic example of how to look after a good horse.

[Triple V]

I'm unable to sit on the sidelines any longer.

Firstly...
There have been a number of studies carried out in both the Standardbred & Thoroughbred Industries and both returned the finding that there is absolutely no evidence whatsoever that 2yo racing has any deletorious effect on the longevity of the racing population.
In fact evidence has been repeatedly found that strongly suggests the horses which begin their careers at 2yrs have notably longer racing careers, they have more starts per year & they win more money per head by their career's end than those who begin racing at 3yrs & older.
Furthermore this particularly pertains to horses that have raced at 2yrs having overall better developed/notably more robust musculoskeletal health. For some interesting reading on the subject, I think Phil might already have posted this link here? but if not, here it is. http://www.horsetalk.co.nz/news/2012/02/169.shtml#axzz2ZIcjWj79 .

Secondly...
Insofar as the Standardbred Breed is concerned, unlike our counterparts in the TB's, we as an Industry make the HUGE mistake of repeatedly FAILING to recognise a great many insurmountable, inescapable physiological and genetic aspects inherently present in our Breed. Despite what some believe and what some would have us believe, like the TB's we ALSO have early maturing and late maturing sirelines & we ALSO have early maturning & late maturing maternal familes. Similarly we have within our Breed sirelines and families ranging from high speed/fast twitch muscled/'sprint' distance types through to gridning/slow twitch/'staying' distance types.
Further to this, IMO, because of our Industry's perculiar and I would argue overall negative resulting fixation with breeding a 'Jack Of All Trades' type of horse that will go early over a short distance from a mobile but is also expected to go on and race until aged over distance from a stand...we produce a great many horses that are scattered through various points in between.
Essentially this widespread ignoring of the various inherant aspects of our Breed and the failure to emphasise/breed towards/capitalise upon them IMO dooms a large number of the annual foal crop to mediocrity, they ultimately end up being neither one thing nor the other.
I've gone onto a bigger issue there but I think it pertains directly to the question this thread raises just the same. Bringing this reply back to the bare bones of the thread title I firmly believe as a proposal that it similarly...I would argue traditionally...ignores those insurmountable, inescapable physiological and genetic aspects inherently present in our Breed I mentioned above. The fact is that some horses are naturally/genetically destined to be all they'll ever be at 2 & 3 and even within that tight 2& 3 subset there are some who are all that they'll ever be at 2yrs & they will never improve a yard at 3yrs & beyond.
As distasteful as it is for me to admit it, the way in which the TB's revel in and focus upon the various sireline/maternal family/genetic traits/strengths of their breed which range from Golden Slipper 2yo speed scampers to Milers through to Melbourne Cup 2 Mile slogs is a book from which we should seriously think about taking a page or two.

It will never happen however, by way of suggesting that we as an Industry should totally remove 2yo racing from our activities, Dan...you are by default or otherwise suggesting we ignore or remove that section of the Breed who's genentics are responsible for early going precocious juvenile speed/performance, something which is obviously impossible to do.

[mightymo]

Blackie actually got injured as a 3yo otherwise would have raced a lot more in his 3yo season. My point being that Blackie did race as a 2yo (all be it very late). What about all the other examples i have of horses racing in the biggest 2yo race and still becoming FFA

If you think your best chance to produce a GC horse is to not race them at 2, then dont! That is your choice. You may be right!

On the other hand, if i think i have a precocious type, I may choose to race him at 2.

[Triple V]

Ah Blacks A Fake, what a fantastic example of how to produce a grand circuit horse.
Race four times as a 2yo in the last month of the season to knock out the greenness and then 8 times as a three year old followed up by a one year spell.
This is the last horse I would market as a 2yo going on to be a grand circuit horse.
This is the classic example of how to look after a good horse.

[VVV] How to produce a GC horse? :confused: C'mon now.
These days, with the quality and range of Sires available juvenile performers can be specifically bred for and they can duly be produced with ever increasing degrees of certainty...but anyone who thinks for one minute that they can set out to breed an Open Class/Aged GC performer is kidding themselves in a huge way. GC horses can and they do come from anywhere. They are not bred for, they are not specifically produced with Aged GC duties in mind. They simply occur, they are born, and exclusive of the efforts of all & sundry.

[Gtrain]

I always find it interesting to look at the breeding of FFAs. Tinted Cloud, Badlands Hanover, Panorama, Washington VC, Iraklis, Echelon. These sires have thrown out and out champions. You could buy a straw of each for one Bettors or Art Major! If there is an example of a 2yo but mainly 3yo who should have been burnt out at the moment it's Excel Stride. Watching that horse chase around Sushi Sushi and the work he was doing to get to the chair each time was demoralising. But he has improved, sure he isn't dominating, but there's no doubt he has improved.

[HarnessFan]

The best 2 male two year olds in Excel Strides year were Royal Verdict and Sushi Sushi. I wonder if we will see them race as well as they were. I don't think there is anything to do with the breeding of these horses that make them incapable of racing regularly as older horses.

If you race at the highest level as a 2yo, you are extremely likely to have issues later on. Yes we can find the odd exception with Excel Stride.

You only need to look at the top 20 stake earners over the last 10 years to be staggered at the lack of racing that good 2yo's can sustain at an age beyond 5.

[aussiebreno]

The fascination that improvement is linear and the same horses who dominate at two should dominate at open level is bizarre. In what other avenue of life is improvement linear, where others can't progress faster or slower, or one can plateau? Why is racing any different?

[mightymo]

The fascination that improvement is linear and the same horses who dominate at two should dominate at open level is bizarre. In what other avenue of life is improvement linear, where others can't progress faster or slower, or one can plateau? Why is racing any different?

Spot on Brendan. I used to play and still follow tennis very closely.

Go back over the last 20 years and tell me which junior champions became grand slam champions - the record is horrible. Does that mean they shouldnt start playing tennis till they are 18. If that was the case would they become world no 1's? Jason Stoltenberg, Todd Woodbridge, Mark Kratzmann, Todd Reid were all junior grand slam champions yet none of them won a senior grand slam. There were many of their opponents in junior days who couldnt get near them, yet went on to win senior grand slams and become world no 1's.

[mightymo]

I started the current racing season with 6 two year olds. Out of these only 1 has raced as he was the only one who showed he was ready to race as a 2yo. Ironically he is the youngest of the 6, born around Xmas time.

Only time will tell, but Im very confident he will turn out to be the best of the 6 and still be racing years from now despite having raced at 2.

[aussiebreno]

Spot on Brendan. I used to play and still follow tennis very closely.

Go back over the last 20 years and tell me which junior champions became grand slam champions - the record is horrible. Does that mean they shouldnt start playing tennis till they are 18. If that was the case would they become world no 1's? Jason Stoltenberg, Todd Woodbridge, Mark Kratzmann, Todd Reid were all junior grand slam champions yet none of them won a senior grand slam. There were many of their opponents in junior days who couldnt get near them, yet went on to win senior grand slams and become world no 1's.
Too right Mightymo.
The kids in the Under 15 state sides of sports barely resemble the Under 18 version let alone open age.
The kids getting straight A's in year 6 aren't necessarily the kids getting the big results in Year 12.
The trainee/apprentice who picks it up quicker isn't necessarily the one who becomes boss.
Most of us would have started talking at one or two. Most of can put a sentence together by four. Einstein couldn't talk until he was four. He couldn't put a sentence together until he was nine. Does that mean the rest of us peaked too early?
A maple tree only takes 10 years to grow to 20m. A Southern Magnolia may take up to 50 years to grow...but it reaches 30m. Those rosh bushes my mother planted, one shot up quickly and looked a winner but died shortly after. The other one wasn't much to start with but 5 years later looks a million bucks.

By all means hold your own (your own = people in general not targeted at anyone) 2yos back if that is what you think is best but don't go sprouting crap to others.

[Triple V]

The best 2 male two year olds in Excel Strides year were Royal Verdict and Sushi Sushi. I wonder if we will see them race as well as they were. I don't think there is anything to do with the breeding of these horses that make them incapable of racing regularly as older horses.

If you race at the highest level as a 2yo, you are extremely likely to have issues later on. Yes we can find the odd exception with Excel Stride.

You only need to look at the top 20 stake earners over the last 10 years to be staggered at the lack of racing that good 2yo's can sustain at an age beyond 5.


[VVV] Show me a rule, I'll show you an example to dispute it.
Pelicanrama raced 24 times at 2yrs & she travelled so much that season she made the Leyland Brothers look like a pair of stay at homes.
She then had about 4 weeks off from around end of August that year, she came back in November at 3yrs & she did almost the same, went everywhere, raced everyone. I think she had 23 starts at 3yrs. She was then on sold to the US where she had a further 102 race starts. 149 starts lifetime.

[Triple V]

The fascination that improvement is linear and the same horses who dominate at two should dominate at open level is bizarre. In what other avenue of life is improvement linear, where others can't progress faster or slower, or one can plateau? Why is racing any different?

[VVV] Testify Brother Breno. Amen.

[broncobrad]

If you blokes are wondering where the orchestrator of this thread has been, I would suggest you check out the result of Tamworth race 3 this afternoon...you mightn't be hearing from him for a while lol

[Bandito]

Holy crap - when did we last see a 175/1 winner ???

It is obvious - we should not race them until they are 7yo's !!!

[Mitch]

If you blokes are wondering where the orchestrator of this thread has been, I would suggest you check out the result of Tamworth race 3 this afternoon...you mightn't be hearing from him for a while lol

Congrats to Dan, any winner is a thrill but at $176 that is awesome!

[Bandito]

$176 is awesome if he had something on it. $10 would have doubled his prize money - much more and it would not have been $176

[Triple V]

Congrats Dan. A result's a result's a result...price be damned.
I can clearly remember that mare's damsire racing, Typhoon Lobell.
He was by a son of Nero named Lucius Lobell. Years later his (Lucius Lobell's) maternal line produced no less than Somebeachsomewhere. Typhoon Lobell was very smart, a bit ironic in terms of this thread title in that he was a very good 2yo. A bloke by the name of Adams used to drive him. End Trivia.

[Bandito]

Congrats Dan. A result's a result's a result...price be damned.
I can clearly remember that mare's damsire racing, Typhoon Lobell.
He was by a son of Nero named Lucius Lobell. Years later his (Lucius Lobell's) maternal line produced no less than Somebeachsomewhere. Typhoon Lobell was very smart, a bit ironic in terms of this thread title in that he was a very good 2yo. A bloke by the name of Adams used to drive him. End Trivia.
A good 2yo who did not race past 4yo :)
That family U118 sure did produce Somebeachsomewhere from left left field (maybe Cam Terrific provided the hint)

[Mitch]

Congrats Dan. A result's a result's a result...price be damned.
I can clearly remember that mare's damsire racing, Typhoon Lobell.
He was by a son of Nero named Lucius Lobell. Years later his (Lucius Lobell's) maternal line produced no less than Somebeachsomewhere. Typhoon Lobell was very smart, a bit ironic in terms of this thread title in that he was a very good 2yo. A bloke by the name of Adams used to drive him. End Trivia.

Jaimie, Off topic here but how are the Gelato sessions with Dot down at Norton St going?

[Mitch]

I have no issue with racing 2yo's.

As many others have already suggested it's certainly not for every horse. Some are at their best at 2, while many others improve as they get older.

I think it's quite easy to explain why champion 2yo's often don't go on and perform later in their careers. Quite simply, they are early maturing horses and they are at their best at 2yo. Just like a late maturing horse might peak at 6, 7 or even older.

What I think can be improved with juvenile racing is the crazy prize money on offer in the futurities. Whilst futurity series are all self funding via the 'sustaining' fee process I would much prefer to see the APG (now only a 2yo series), Breeders Crown, Breeders Challenge etc have an even spread of prize money across all age groups and like the Jewels in NZ be extended 5yo's as well. The lure of such big prize money forces owners and trainers to make short term decisions which are not in the best interests of horses at times.
If the breeders crown for example was of $150k for 2yo's, 3yo's, 4yo's & 5yo's you would still get the best juvenile horses compete.

It will never be removed and nor should it.

[Danno]

What I think can be improved with juvenile racing is the crazy prize money on offer in the futurities. Whilst futurity series are all self funding via the 'sustaining' fee process I would much prefer to see the APG (now only a 2yo series), Breeders Crown, Breeders Challenge etc have an even spread of prize money across all age groups and like the Jewels in NZ be extended 5yo's as well. The lure of such big prize money forces owners and trainers to make short term decisions which are not in the best interests of horses at times.
If the breeders crown for example was of $150k for 2yo's, 3yo's, 4yo's & 5yo's you would still get the best juvenile horses compete.




Spot On Mitch,
I only used the word "ban" in order to get people talking because things have been a bit quiet lately,IMO the big end of town prizemoney can itself lead to some/many young horses being pushed too far too many times because of the temptation, training 2YO's is a balancing act that not everyone gets right all the time and who pays the price when it goes wrong? the horse and the owner.

Thanks for the goodwill messages guys, that mare was never going to be a 2yo as she had a development issue as a baby and I never broke her in til she was a late 2YO, then she cut her tendon almost in half in the paddock 3 years ago when I was about to take her to the trials to qualify, getting her to the races was a good thing in itself but today brought a lump to my throat, her mother was an orphan and didn't race at all due to an injury in the paddock just after I broke her in and her grand dam looked like being a nice mare but stuffed her shoulder in the stable....it's been a long time coming that little R0 at Tamworth...

Cheers guys,
I think the debate is showing many people believe that the level of prizemoney for the major 2 yo races is out of step with what the game needs, which is pretty much my opinion, I've raced a couple of 2yo's myself and one of them won a country classic "Sapling Stakes", but yeah he was really an early comer, not many are and therein lies the problem when there is big money tempting people.

Cheers,
Dan

[Toohard]

Thanks for the goodwill messages guys, that mare was never going to be a 2yo as she had a development issue as a baby and I never broke her in til she was a late 2YO, then she cut her tendon almost in half in the paddock 3 years ago when I was about to take her to the trials to qualify, getting her to the races was a good thing in itself but today brought a lump to my throat, her mother was an orphan and didn't race at all due to an injury in the paddock just after I broke her in and her grand dam looked like being a nice mare but stuffed her shoulder in the stable....it's been a long time coming that little R0 at Tamworth...



Many congratulations Dan !!!
Cheeers
Luke and Paul

[strong persuader]

Congrats on the win Dan, even sweeter when you know the background :)

[G-Mac]

Great story Dan. Congratulations.

[HISGEN65]

Great story Dan...congrats mate

[mightymo]

Well done Dan. I assume you will be sipping Pino coladas in the Bahamas next week!!

[Danno]

Thanks Luke and Paul,Phil Glen,James and Harvey, Danno is a very happy camper today and Harvey I am definitley sipping cold VB's under the shade of breezy palm in my mind at the moment.

Thanks again guys.

[little fish]

I have no issue with racing 2yo's.

As many others have already suggested it's certainly not for every horse. Some are at their best at 2, while many others improve as they get older.

I think it's quite easy to explain why champion 2yo's often don't go on and perform later in their careers. Quite simply, they are early maturing horses and they are at their best at 2yo. Just like a late maturing horse might peak at 6, 7 or even older.

What I think can be improved with juvenile racing is the crazy prize money on offer in the futurities. Whilst futurity series are all self funding via the 'sustaining' fee process I would much prefer to see the APG (now only a 2yo series), Breeders Crown, Breeders Challenge etc have an even spread of prize money across all age groups and like the Jewels in NZ be extended 5yo's as well. The lure of such big prize money forces owners and trainers to make short term decisions which are not in the best interests of horses at times.
If the breeders crown for example was of $150k for 2yo's, 3yo's, 4yo's & 5yo's you would still get the best juvenile horses compete.

It will never be removed and nor should it.

I'm not as knowledgable as you guys but I agree it would be much better to spread the $$ evenly over 2yo 3yo 4yo and 5yo.

I'm relatively 'young' I think in this industry, I spend a fair bit at the yearling sales and plan on doing so well into the future, and I can tell you if they had a better spread of prizemoney like mentioned above it would only enhance my enthusiasm to be buying more horses and yearlings into the future.

However if it stays like it is now with the 2yos getting the lions share, well put it this way I have given serious consideration this year to not paying my yearling up for the Gold just because it is so focused on 2yo with nothing for any other age group.

I don't think that sort of lure is good for the industry overall, to be encouraging owners to get their horse absolutely flying as a very early 2yo.

[Triple V]

It's a popular misconception that the older horses are 'missing out' on prizemoney because it's being diverted to big $$$ 2yo events.
Fact is the finance for big $$$ for 2yos largely comes in the form of Futurity events where Breeders & Owners pay up along the way and the Industry annually races for its own money.
When the Owners of C0's etc spring 2-3-4-5k each from the pockets to get a pool together then they can race for a 300k purse as well. Until then, IMO they need to get a little perspective on exactly where the $$$ for those juvenile events actually comes from.

[little fish]

Triple V my point is I think it would be far more attractive to me as a buyer to spend more money at the sales - to both pay more for a horse and also possibly buy more horses - if there were race series for 2yo 3yo 4yo and 5yo worth 100k-150k each, rather than just everything thrown into their 2yo year.

The way I think, if my horse misses the 2yo race due to a minor setback or he's not an early maturing gun type, then I still get a race to aim him at in 3yo year, and 4yo year and then at 5yo year too.

Mate I guarantee you that would get me pumped at the sales.

If the same horse is good enough to win every year then doff the hat to that gun he is the best and deserves every cent. But if 4 different horses get a win then every single purchaser at the sales has 4 times as much chance at a very good win for their money! And that would be much more reason to put up your hand at the sales I reckon.

And I would suggest it would be good for the longevity of the horses because I don't think the pressure would be on as much to get them going full bore at such a young age due to that being the only shot at the pot of gold.

Seems logical to me.

[mightymo]

The ID final is worth 750K, the Miracle Mile 750K, Hunter Cup 400K, Vic Cup 400K.

The biggest 2yo races are APG 300K and Breeders Crown 300K. Both of these are futurity races ie self funded .There is not very much industry money put in 2yos. That is a big misconception.

It really only starts with the various Oaks/Derbies as 3yos

The one area that needs work on is 4yos. Most are not ready to take the step into free for all/grand circuit racing and there is very little around outside of sires stakes. There is nothing at all for mares and only Chariots of Fire for colts unless you go to WA for Golden Nugget

[Triple V]

Triple V my point is I think it would be far more attractive to me as a buyer to spend more money at the sales - to both pay more for a horse and also possibly buy more horses - if there were race series for 2yo 3yo 4yo and 5yo worth 100k-150k each, rather than just everything thrown into their 2yo year.

The way I think, if my horse misses the 2yo race due to a minor setback or he's not an early maturing gun type, then I still get a race to aim him at in 3yo year, and 4yo year and then at 5yo year too.

Mate I guarantee you that would get me pumped at the sales.

If the same horse is good enough to win every year then doff the hat to that gun he is the best and deserves every cent. But if 4 different horses get a win then every single purchaser at the sales has 4 times as much chance at a very good win for their money! And that would be much more reason to put up your hand at the sales I reckon.

And I would suggest it would be good for the longevity of the horses because I don't think the pressure would be on as much to get them going full bore at such a young age due to that being the only shot at the pot of gold.

Seems logical to me.

[VVV] That would be pretty good I must admit. Kind of along those lines I'd like to see the Grand Circuit extended so that it covers both sexes of 2yos, 3yos, 4yos & Open Class.

[little fish]

The ID final is worth 750K, the Miracle Mile 750K, Hunter Cup 400K, Vic Cup 400K.

The biggest 2yo races are APG 300K and Breeders Crown 300K. Both of these are futurity races ie self funded .There is not very much industry money put in 2yos. That is a big misconception.

It really only starts with the various Oaks/Derbies as 3yos

The one area that needs work on is 4yos. Most are not ready to take the step into free for all/grand circuit racing and there is very little around outside of sires stakes. There is nothing at all for mares and only Chariots of Fire for colts unless you go to WA for Golden Nugget

I dont think it's that much of a misconception, I definitely know how the funding works with the industry money and various crown, vicbred and gold series races.

My point is I think APG in particular should be spreading the $ more evenly up to their 5yo year. I think it would make a more attractive enticement for buyers to get involved (which would benefit breeders like yourself) and would also help the industry by removing the all or nothing emphasis on getting your 2yo up and going at such an early age.

If the 2yo race goes from 300k to 125k it wouldn't worry me one iota if the trade off was having a 3yo 100k, 4yo 100k and a 5yo 100k. Funding could come from re-jigging the sustainer amounts or adding a small extra sustainer for the 3yo 4yo and 5yo years.

They have changed the APG structure that many times already, they are obviously willing to look at better ways of doing it.

I was genuine in my comment that I seriously considered not paying up for the gold this year. My thinking was that I wanted to relieve the pressure from my trainers to be pushing the 2yos before they were ready. I trust my trainers, but the industry does it hard, and it is 300 grand after all.

[Danno]

I dont think it's that much of a misconception, I definitely know how the funding works with the industry money and various crown, vicbred and gold series races.

My point is I think APG in particular should be spreading the $ more evenly up to their 5yo year. I think it would make a more attractive enticement for buyers to get involved (which would benefit breeders like yourself) and would also help the industry by removing the all or nothing emphasis on getting your 2yo up and going at such an early age.

If the 2yo race goes from 300k to 125k it wouldn't worry me one iota if the trade off was having a 3yo 100k, 4yo 100k and a 5yo 100k. Funding could come from re-jigging the sustainer amounts or adding a small extra sustainer for the 3yo 4yo and 5yo years.

They have changed the APG structure that many times already, they are obviously willing to look at better ways of doing it.

I was genuine in my comment that I seriously considered not paying up for the gold this year. My thinking was that I wanted to relieve the pressure from my trainers to be pushing the 2yos before they were ready. I trust my trainers, but the industry does it hard, and it is 300 grand after all.

Barry I think your ideas are very close to what our game needs, the commercial breeders will need to adjust their approach to the marketing of their product and the whole industry will need to make similarly sized adjustments, but if our game is going to survive in the longer term, the types of changes you are proposing are IMO, going to improve the returns and aspirations for the people who attend the yearling sales and also encourage the hobby breeder(s) to continue in a similar vein.

The sooner we stop people relying on "winning the lottery" and instead allow their horse to develop without undue pressure the more owners will see a positive result from their faith in our game.

Thanks ,
Dan

[Triple V]

Into the bargain an Owner could ask their Trainer & the Farrier & the Feed bloke & the Vet & so on to make similarly long term investments in a horse and similarly wait 2-3-4 years + for their money.

[Bandito]

With the two different camps on this debate, does anyone think that if the Miles could do it all again, they would have spelled Mindara P after she was crook in the lead up to the VSS final last month.

[aussiebreno]

Hindsight a wonderful thing...

[Danno]

Your dead right Brenno, hindsight is a wonderful thing, but so too is experience and history, because they help us ( if we take heed of the lessons ) to not continually make the same mistakes.
The thing that annoys me in this particular issue is that when it comes to 2yos, you have very few opportunities to bounce back from the damage that comes from mistakes when trying to make 2yo race horses out of horses that are not forward enough to do so. More often than not the damage is done and it's more often than not permanent.

People who have trained horses and learned from mistakes ( often called hindsight Brenno) will tell you the dangers are real, people who have a product to sell may tell you what they need to tell you in order to sell the product.....and if you get caught, that would be seen from the benefit of hindsight too mighten it?


Sometimes people need to make their own mistakes, it just annoys me when it's the horse that is the one that suffers the most.

cheers,
Dan

[aussiebreno]

If not for a perfect drive from B Trembath Mindarie Priddy wins the Vic Sires and not a word is spoken about her ill health. I will back the judgement of David and Lisa Miles in this case. Miles has a lot of experience and history, and has trained a lot of good horses and one would assume he had made mistakes and learnt from them down the track. Did you get on the phone to them and tell them to scratch and spell pre Vicbred final?

[little fish]

Your dead right Brenno, hindsight is a wonderful thing, but so too is experience and history, because they help us ( if we take heed of the lessons ) to not continually make the same mistakes.
The thing that annoys me in this particular issue is that when it comes to 2yos, you have very few opportunities to bounce back from the damage that comes from mistakes when trying to make 2yo race horses out of horses that are not forward enough to do so. More often than not the damage is done and it's more often than not permanent.

People who have trained horses and learned from mistakes ( often called hindsight Brenno) will tell you the dangers are real, people who have a product to sell may tell you what they need to tell you in order to sell the product.....and if you get caught, that would be seen from the benefit of hindsight too mighten it?


Sometimes people need to make their own mistakes, it just annoys me when it's the horse that is the one that suffers the most.

cheers,
Dan

The problem about hindsight is if you make what hindsight suggests would've been the 'wise' choice at the time then you miss all the big money races - which hurts - but obviously your horse doesn't break down either and yes it gets given the time it needs to develop but because it didn't break down you are left thinking what might have been.

It is like that movie 'sliding doors' - you keep going and it breaks down, but you stop and then you see horses you were running against are starting to have success in the big races and you think hmmm could that have been us.

I will always err on the side of resting them. I had a couple of nice 2yo's this season one whom in particular we were aiming at the crown, he showed signs he would be a better horse if given time in the paddock instead of being pushed right now, and even though we thought we would've been competitive in the big 2yo races we decided to pull up stumps and give him a few months in the paddock. I think we have done the right thing by the horse, but it would be a much easier decision if the 2yo races were worth 150k instead of 300k

[Bandito]

If not for a perfect drive from B Trembath Mindarie Priddy wins the Vic Sires and not a word is spoken about her ill health. I will back the judgement of David and Lisa Miles in this case. Miles has a lot of experience and history, and has trained a lot of good horses and one would assume he had made mistakes and learnt from them down the track. Did you get on the phone to them and tell them to scratch and spell pre Vicbred final?
I must say I was a little wary starting this thread up again on the back of the Miles misfortune but it seemed to me a classic scenario for thrashing out the issue. I know David is a big boy and would have had opinions on the topic before and since Saturday. Only he and Lisa could tell us if there is even a 1% chance they might have missed something but it goes without saying they would always have the welfare of their champion filly in mind . As for phoning them, you're just being silly - that would be like me sticking my beak into your marital affairs!

[Triple V]

Your dead right Brenno, hindsight is a wonderful thing, but so too is experience and history, because they help us ( if we take heed of the lessons ) to not continually make the same mistakes.
The thing that annoys me in this particular issue is that when it comes to 2yos, you have very few opportunities to bounce back from the damage that comes from mistakes when trying to make 2yo race horses out of horses that are not forward enough to do so. More often than not the damage is done and it's more often than not permanent.

People who have trained horses and learned from mistakes ( often called hindsight Brenno) will tell you the dangers are real, people who have a product to sell may tell you what they need to tell you in order to sell the product.....and if you get caught, that would be seen from the benefit of hindsight too mighten it?


Sometimes people need to make their own mistakes, it just annoys me when it's the horse that is the one that suffers the most.

cheers,
Dan

[VVV] I understand she bled Dan...you can hardly blame David and Lisa for that. Hindsight has been mentioned elsewhere in this thread.
EIPH is almost always a cumulative issue & so with the 20/20 benefit of that...perhaps a prior disapointing peformance or two by the filly suggested she had previously done so, as in bled,...only this time around it was such that the evidence of same became visible.
Maybe she could have been scoped straight after she returned her first sub par effort?
At the time, did the minds of anyone else here immediately go to her possibly having bled?
I'd certainly not have immediately thought of that. Anyone else?
Even if it was identified, what could they have done about it anyway? Our rules don't allow for the use of Lasix, Aicar etc. Hindsight indeed.
On a related note, EIPH is by far and away the single biggest animal welfare issue both Horse Racing codes could seek to address...and only for the fact that 8 or 9 times out of 10 it remains all but hidden (as in the aspirated blood remains in the lungs/lower airways as opposed to the upper airways/nostrils) we'd have the RSPCA and PETA on our case on a daily basis.
On a further related note, there's a large body of evidence in a few studies that I've read to suggest horses that race up on the enginel/hot/pull hard are many times more likely to experience EIPH issues than their more relaxed counterparts.
Is it a coincidence that this particular filly seemed to race pretty hot, especially so in her initial starts? Did that contribute to and ultimately cause her to bleed? Perhaps...perhaps not. Food for thought.
One thing's for certain, NONE of it has anything at all to do with racing her as a 2yo.
I'd like to have one that was not forward enough to race who nevertheless at her 1st & 2nd lifetime starts went within a Bee's todger of becoming the fastest 2yo filly ever in the Southern Hemisphere. Making her the Poster Child for lets ban 2yo racing is a pretty fair old stretch, IMO.

[Danno]

Jamie,
my comments were more generic about "hindsight" than just the issue with this filly on this occasion, and my comments were also about learning from experience rather than ignoring the experience and calling it "luck" or "bad luck".

I have had a couple of bleeders in my time, one that gave classic warning signs and another that gave NONE, so I was not having a shot at the Miles' or anyone else for that matter, simply making the point that history and experience should not be ignored, allowing "hindsight" to be used as an excuse for failure.

I think we would all like to have the benefit of 20/20 hindsight, but also not be looking to use it as an excuse.

[
QUOTE]One thing's for certain, NONE of it has anything at all to do with racing her as a 2yo.[/QUOTE]

as usual Jamie, that is an absolute ripper of a totally baseless statement, I'd be interested to see what science this statement is supported by.

Cheers,
Dan

[Bandito]

Thanks for the debate men. Not being a horseman, I am always interested in hearing the viewpoint of those that are. Is bute banned out here too? One article I read mentioned that it and lasix are the only medications allowed in a racing horses bloodstream in the US and suggested bute causes "thinner" blood with some suggestion that the problem of EIPH is exacerbated by thinner blood. I know that a 2yo would not be on bute and do appreciate that Mindara's bleed is probably a cruel blow that just came out of left field. Danno does have a point however VVVV, in that we cannot say NONE of it has anything at all to do with racing her as a 2yo - being a smart alec here but I can't imagine her bleeding out in the paddock

[Triple V]

Fellas, a lack of effort there on my part for not properly putting my comment across.
The point I was trying to make was...Is there a higher instance of 2yos bleeding as compared to older, more mature horses? Obviously not and therefore it follows that her age or lackthereof has had absolutely nothing to do with what happened to her. Mutually exclusive.

[Toohard]

Without wanting to buy into the argument...

I’m the trainer. I'm very good at what I do. I do it for a living. Not a pastime or hobby, but a living. If it’s forced upon me or not, I do the very best for the people that support me (the owners) and the horse. That means tipping the horse out for while or whatever

I'm the owner. Been trying my whole life to get the fast one. I got the best one going around and there’s a $300k race staring me in face.

Horse is 100% OK.

What do I do?

[Bandito]

What do I do?

Ask the trainer what he would do if he was the owner ;)

[Danno]

http://www.harnesslink.com/International/2YO-Breeders-Crown

I know I'm a pain, but it just keeps urking me that profit comes before the sport, after all thats why I'm in the game for sport/fun....thats why Bob's comments and observations cause me to get concerned!!!!