cobalt

[aussiebreno]

http://www.harness.org.au/news-article.cfm?news_id=22313

Are we going to see a flurry of positives?

[Messenger]

Nowadays it is bloody hard to defend the racing industry - may as well just stick to barracking for the Bombers OOPS

[barney]

Seems there has been 6 positives to this in Nsw harness although non yet in Gallops.
Seems like it is the same as Epo and can cause a horse to collapse and even die.Can be administered by needle or tablet.
Dare say we need to wait and to see the outcome.

[djgood]

6 positives? haven't seen any do you know something we dont ?

[aussiebreno]

Gallops no positives because they once again behind the eight ball.

http://forum.thoroughbredvillage.com.au/cobalt-chloride-taking-over-from-epo_topic48586.html

[Lucky Camilla"s Lovechild]

What a cool name for a racehorse!

[Messenger]

Gallops no positives because they once again behind the eight ball.

http://forum.thoroughbredvillage.com.au/cobalt-chloride-taking-over-from-epo_topic48586.html

That is the story that led the back page of The Age this morning. It is very hard to follow as the first line says Racing authorities admit to not having the means to test for it and then in the middle of the story it says 'Bailey said Racing Victoria had been warned a year ago about the effects of cobalt chloride, and that he instructed his panel to test extensively over the spring carnival. He said no high readings have been discovered.'

[barney]

What a cool name for a racehorse!

Try to get it registered see how you go.

[Chariots]

Seems there has been 6 positives to this in Nsw harness although non yet in Gallops.
Seems like it is the same as Epo and can cause a horse to collapse and even die.Can be administered by needle or tablet.
Dare say we need to wait and to see the outcome.

Sweeping statement Barney, anything to back it up or are you insinuating that it is being kept quiet?

[Messenger]

Another article in The Age today which hones in on NSWharnesss again and contains a table of findings from the last 30mths but I do not see Cobalt.

http://theage.digitaleditions.com.au/OLIVE/ODE/ONLINE/LandingPage/LandingPage.aspx?href=QUdFLzIwMTQvMDIvMDQ.&pageno=NDk.&entity=QXIwNDkwMA..&view=ZW50aXR5

[BenScadden]

If you had to have a bet, you'd reckon there's a fair chance at least one trainer has used/is using the stuff. It's the nature of our gain. Someone will always take an advantage (legal or otherwise) if they can get one. Be interesting to see if any trainer's results dip after recent publicity.

[teecee]

http://www.harness.org.au/news-article.cfm?news_id=22313


http://www.harness.org.au/news-article.cfm?news_id=21795

[BenScadden]

http://www.harness.org.au/news-article.cfm?news_id=22313


http://www.harness.org.au/news-article.cfm?news_id=21795

good to see some acknowledgement by the authorities. Puts everyone on notice.

[barney]

Sweeping statement Barney, anything to back it up or are you insinuating that it is being kept quiet?

Cant see anything to suggest that i think its been hushed up.I havent seen any mention in stewards wrap of positives to this so may have been kept quiet i have no idea.

[Chariots]

Who and where are the six positives as stated by you then Barney?

[Lucky Camilla"s Lovechild]

Cant see anything to suggest that i think its been hushed up.I havent seen any mention in stewards wrap of positives to this so may have been kept quiet i have no idea.
You obviously know something Barney. This is the second forum you have brought up this subject. I wont go into the rest of what you posted, because it wouldnt last long on this forum. Your either full of s**t, or you know whats going down. Which is it Barney?

[Richard prior]

Good work Trish and Barney.

[trish]

Chief Steward Ray Murrihy has warned Racing NSW officials will step up surveillance and testing measures. Source: News Limited
CHIEF steward Ray Murrihy has downplayed suggestions a new performance-enhancing drug is being used in NSW racing.


But Murrihy warned Racing NSW officials will step up surveillance and testing measures after the drug cobalt chloride was found to be in use the harness racing code.
"This substance has been around for 12 months or more in harness racing,'' Murrihy revealed.
"We are well aware of it and if cobalt chloride is in use elsewhere, we must be alive to the prospect someone might experiment with it in the gallops.
"If this is an issue in harness racing, then we won't put our heads in the sand and say it won't happen here.
"There is no intelligence to suggest that is the case in NSW racing but we (stewards) are on top of it and keeping a close eye on things.''
The drug cobalt chloride stimulates a horse's system to produce more erythropoietin thus increasing stamina and endurance.
There has been six positive tests to cobalt chloride in NSW harness racing and the drug has been detected in US racing.

[barney]

You obviously know something Barney. This is the second forum you have brought up this subject. I wont go into the rest of what you posted, because it wouldnt last long on this forum. Your either full of s**t, or you know whats going down. Which is it Barney?
I know what is on the internet various sites as much as you guys

What i put on the other site was a pure fact undisputable that a horse from the Triton stable and also a galloper from the Moody stable have collapsed and died at the races recently .I also said coincidental only time will tell i guess
What part of the is shit as you said none undisputable horses did collaspe and die

[trish]

http://m.smh.com.au/sport/horseracing/racing-probe-into-cobalt-chloride-use-started-more-than-a-year-ago-says-integrity-officer-20140203-31xdv.html

[Messenger]

That is what I read in The Age and tried to link in post 8 Trish - thanks for doing a better job than me

[Lucky Camilla"s Lovechild]

I wonder if all this has something to do with the thread Danno started 2 weeks ago under the title 'Hope yet' ?

[barney]

I wonder if all this has something to do with the thread Danno started 2 weeks ago under the title 'Hope yet' ?

Thought the same thing

[trish]

http://www.harness.org.au/news-article.cfm?news_id=22677

[barney]

That is interesting to say the least on at least 2 reports i read they quoted harness has had 6 positives.
As i have said we will just have to wait and see

[Messenger]

Thanks again Trish. The supposed 6 positives did not really make sense as the newspaper articles had a table of positives and none were for cobalt

[barney]

What throws me is they stated in those reports that one positive was over 3500mls seems like an interesting period ahead as someone must have supplied them that info 200 is the allowable limit and that is said to be generous.

[Danno]

Brian that limit of 200 has been set since the positive. From my understanding there has been quite a lot of work thrown at coming up with a limit that is both accurately and consistently detectable.
cheers,
Dan

[barney]

Dan in light of the harness .org news release that has been posted on here where they deny positives.I am now more confused as they say irregularities and have been sent for further testing.To me that means some have tested positive and sent for confirmation.

Is this what you were alluding to in your other thread .Hope yet.

[Danno]

All I can say Brian, is that from my information the Cobalt issue is real, and as one would suspect a little more widespread than first thought, it appears news can travel fast when there is an advantage to be had.

Cheers,
Dan

[trish]

http://www.rsn.net.au/audioplayer/1391473378.mp3

[Messenger]

http://www.rsn.net.au/audioplayer/1391473378.mp3

Any chance of a summary trish as I am too deaf to listen to an audioplayer

[trish]

Any chance of a summary trish as I am too deaf to listen to an audioplayer

I have sent a PM to you Kevin.

[trish]

http://www.nydailynews.com/blogs/theraces/2014/01/meadowlands-is-cracking-down-on-cobalt-will-ban-trainers

[teecee]

It seems that this thread is full from start to end with numerous "inaccuracies" even despite the official releases on the subject by governing bodies.
Cobalt Chloride exists in several feed preparations. It is also to occur naturally as a trace element. Hence those governing bodies with real concerns and given some thought to the initial concerns and pending further substantive studies have placed a threshold level on its presence in test samples.
The presence of cobalt chloride in a test sample is not a positive swab.


As HRNSW have been at pains to state their has been no "Positive" detections by them. They have actively refuted the claims of others of 6 positive tests within their jurisdiction.
They are the only body currently testing for excesses in Cobalt Chloride.


The claims being made by others in the media and on this forum are not, therefore substantiated.
This thread remains open in the interim pending some substantiation of the claims made. If that is not possible then move on.

[broncobrad]

Trish, thanks for radio interview...would be great to have heard from Reid Sanders as he was about to be interviewed. Can you get your hands on that? This is all pretty new to me this cobalt stuff, but from what I have heard and read about, the authorities are aware of its (improper) use and have been for a while now. Cannot fault the regulatory boys approach to this thus far, they have to be cautious in working out what would be an acceptable level within an animal in training and racing. Cheats do their best to stay ahead of the game, the labs are always playing catch up, but all that investment by HRNSW may well be paying dividends after the Green Light Scandal...they have taken the lead on this one.

[Greg Hando]

http://www.rsn.net.au/audioplayer/1391473378.mp3

Thank you Trish very informative.

[Messenger]

Thank you Trish very informative.

Let's hope all informative threads can remain open

[trish]

Let's hope all informative threads can remain open


There shouldn't be any problem with this thread staying open because its talk about cobalt and not about any person or persons.

[Danno]

Don't know what you are all going on about, according to Teecee, we should all be moving on! Apparently there is no issue! HAhAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!

Thats Gold Teecee!!

[Danno]

Found this article/add whilst surfing around on the net, seems to agree with many things that I have heard and read about cobalt chloride, therefore there must be numerous inaccuracies I guess, however consistent the information.??

http://www.vpxsports.com/article-detail/drugs/cobalt-chloride-for-increasing-epo

[trish]

And this from the USA



Racing Medication and Testing Consortium, said that Cobalt

is definitely a drug that can be used as a

performance-enhancer.

"People believe is that it causes the bone marrow to

stimulate more blood cells. It's not unlike EPO," she said.

Gural said he first became aware of Cobalt when hearing

rumors that a trainer with a long list of violations on his

record was offering to sell it to people. No racing state was

testing for the drug, so Gural took samples collected by his

investigator Brice Cote and sent them to a lab in Hong Kong,

where the excessive Cobalt levels showed up. Yet, he

doesn't believe he has solved the problem.

"The real problem is that this is a drug that disappears

from the system very quickly," he said. "That makes it hard

for us to pick it up. My guess is that with the two really bad

cases where the trainers were banned their horse probably

got this stuff a half an hour before we tested the horses. We

were probably lucky to catch them."

[Danno]

This article states Victorian Stewards are also testing extensively for Cobalt Chloride, must be more numerous inaccuracies.

http://www.bunburymail.com.au/story/2064418/racing-probe-into-cobalt-chloride-use/?cs=12

If this article is correct then perhaps HRNSW are not the only body currently testing for this substance.

I suppose the Meadowlands putting out statements that they have found excessive levels of the substance are another instance of numerous inaccuracies.

[teecee]

Exactly... this thread started with claims of 6 positive in NSW harness racing. Although no evidence was provided to back up the claims, in the days subsequent several further articles have quoted as evidence. That claim and all the others are based on articles from the mainstream print media.
They are claiming from such sources as Racing NSW, Racing Victoria, Meadowlands racing among others.
None are directly from Racing governing bodies. Any official statements are refuting all of these claims made in these "articles".
..... Bag racing again....Anything to sell a story to sell a newspaper!!

[teecee]

There shouldn't be any problem with this thread staying open because its talk about cobalt and not about any person or persons.


The claims made and being made about cobalt are not based on any factual data. Rather based on unsubstantiated hearsay and rumour mongering. The scientific research has hardly commenced let alone been comprehensively proven one way nor the other Hence the stance being taken by those in authority. As you for one who well knows similar such claims made about a previous similar issue discussed here in a similar manner proved "egg on the face " for some. The difference with this thread is the rebuttal by official bodies e.g.HRNSW...of the misinformation. Be assured this thread wont end as those previous have done.
Discussing people or persons is not the only cause to end a discussion here. An issue being discussed needs to have some factual base to it. So far there appears none with this issue.

[Danno]

We won't have long to wait to see who has egg on their face over this one, there is too much similar data available from too many different sources for me to pretend to myself there isn't an issue and it's just a press "beat up". And unfortunately I am the sort of person to say "I told you so"

[aussiebreno]

We won't have long to wait to see who has egg on their face over this one, there is too much similar data available from too many different sources for me to pretend to myself there isn't an issue and it's just a press "beat up". And unfortunately I am the sort of person to say "I told you so"
No Danno nothing too it. HRNSW only had a completely random idea to set a cobalt chloride threshold for shits and giggles, no substance or as Teecee says FACTS behind it. No other reason, its not like they know trainer/s are using it. Close the thread and stop bloody testing for it.

[Danno]

No Danno nothing too it. HRNSW only had a completely random idea to set a cobalt chloride threshold for shits and giggles, no substance or as Teecee says FACTS behind it. No other reason, its not like they know trainer/s are using it. Close the thread and stop bloody testing for it.

:):rolleyes:;)

[teecee]

We won't have long to wait to see who has egg on their face over this one, there is too much similar data available from too many different sources for me to pretend to myself there isn't an issue and it's just a press "beat up". And unfortunately I am the sort of person to say "I told you so"


You still haven't produce any data to suggest there is anything untoward going on here. Each of the articles put up by you to justify your view has no scientific basis. They are not in part or all research into Cobalt Chloride and its effects on the HORSE. They are not written by anyone partaking in a scientific study of such, (nor for that matter human effects).
So far the only evidence you have presented here of the issue is from your own expression..."a press beatup".

[Boydy]

Tony, not sure if you listened to the interview on this thread, but I was pretty convinced the vet knew both what he was talking about and he was doing so on the basis of credible research and information.

The niavity of your comment about if you have a threshold all is OK. Why have the authorities in the last few month made this threshold. I will give you the tip its not because someone came to authorities and said look guys I have this product and I think it makes horse go faster. It was because they were getting irregularities. Thats why they brought in the threshold.

Bicarb has a threshold, does that mean itsok and not being used??

[Danno]

Teecee, you are entitled to remain uninformed if you so wish, you can also keep saying "there's no facts" if you so wish, this reminds me of an old expression "you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink"

I am definitley not telling you how to form your opinions Tony, but as some would say, "opinions are like a butt, everyone has one and some of them stink more than others."

Oh and by the way, I have done a truckload of research in recent weeks on this subject which I have not shared on this thread for several reasons. The time for pushing our heads in the sand is over, this is a real issue, but you don't have to believe me, just watch and see how it all unfolds.

[p plater]

Just saw carpet layers going into Headquarters. Apparently large bumps under the carpet.....maybe someone is trying to hide things and not confirm other reports.

Could be wrong.

[teecee]

Tony, not sure if you listened to the interview on this thread, but I was pretty convinced the vet knew both what he was talking about and he was doing so on the basis of credible research and information.
My point here is this.....
No posts on this thread lead me to Credible research. HRNSW has yet to consider "credible research". That is why they have a threshold double that of HKJC who also have a threshold level for Cobalt Chloride.
When you speak of others naïve after a statement like above......Have you never considered a second opinion? especially when it comes to medical conditions of animals. Or can you talk to your animals???

The niavity of your comment about if you have a threshold all is OK.
The naivety lies with you. Thresholds exist because the element under consideration can / does exist within the normal bodily function/ makeup or metabolism of the animal. It is outside of that threshold that things can be considered to be abnormal. The other reason why thresholds are set is because the authorities are uncertain what they are dealing with. i.e. the scientific evidence is not available or is inconclusive.
The naivety is with you as I have not stated all is okay where you have a threshold.
Why have the authorities in the last few month made this threshold. I will give you the tip its not because someone came to authorities and said look guys I have this product and I think it makes horse go faster. It was because they were getting irregularities. Thats why they brought in the threshold.

Bicarb has a threshold, does that mean itsok and not being used??
BiCarb is a naturally occurring event within the metabolism of the animal. Research into this shows evidence the natural occurrence to be at a level below the set threshold. BiCarb at a level above the threshold is indicative of additional factors and allows authorities to consider prima facie interference in the natural processes of the horse. Boldenone is similar along with many others including Cobalt Chloride.

[teecee]

[QUOTE=Danno;30515]Teecee, you are entitled to remain uninformed if you so wish, you can also keep saying "there's no facts" if you so wish, this reminds me of an old expression "you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink"

I am definitley not telling you how to form your opinions Tony, but as some would say, "opinions are like a butt, everyone has one and some of them stink more than others."

Oh and by the way, I have done a truckload of research in recent weeks on this subject which I have not shared on this thread for several reasons. The time for pushing our heads in the sand is over, this is a real issue, but you don't have to believe me, just watch and see how it all unfolds.[/QUOTE
]Hey Danno That's fine. Each has his own opinion. I'm not saying your view is neither right nor wrong. So far you have chosen to back up your opinion with newspaper cuttings none of which is backed up by scientific studies. You may remember the Boldenone discussions on the forum. Some pretty strong views on both sides which included scientific study and analysis yet the end result even stumped the experts. The result remains unresolved as we take a parallel path with a not dissimilar naturally occurring substance. Only trouble is as I see it there is not the science exposed to back the views.
You can get me to drink that water simply by guiding me to the secret articles within the scientific community where you have your evidence. PM is fine.


PS... that's my personal view on the issue. As for a moderator's view I am still to see any evidence which backs up the opinion expressed throughout this thread. Evidence of 6 positives to Cobalt Chloride with Harness Racing in NSW and it is the tip of a much wider drugs scandal in Australian Racing industry.

[trish]

This is a notice to participants from Reid Sanders published in the February official & notices & programs booklet.
http://hrnsw.com.au/hrnsw-notice1.html

Reid Sanders states that it is being used in the Harness Racing industry.
Forget your scientific proof. Isn't it enough that when used in high doses it can be dangerous & even fatal. When does the welfare of the horse come into it?
That's good enough for me.

[trish]

The British Medical Journal states that CC causes Hypoxia like responses from the body.
Keep that in mind & read the following. Very interesting.
http://cyclingtips.com.au/2013/02/the-future-of-blood-doping-epo-gene-doping/

[trish]

The USTA is the Governing Body for the Sport of Harness Racing for the entire US & the Atlantic Province of Canada.
This article was published by them & is the foundation of a newspaper article that I posted earlier.
Interesting reading.
http://xwebapp.ustrotting.com/absolutenm/templates/article.aspx?articleid=57329&zoneid=1

[Messenger]

The USTA is the Governing Body for the Sport of Harness Racing for the entire US & the Atlantic Province of Canada.
This article was published by them & is the foundation of a newspaper article that I posted earlier.
Interesting reading.
http://xwebapp.ustrotting.com/absolutenm/templates/article.aspx?articleid=57329&zoneid=1
They sound like exactly the right sort of men to have in charge

[Toohard]

BiCarb is a naturally occurring event within the metabolism of the animal. Research into this shows evidence the natural occurrence to be at a level below the set threshold. BiCarb at a level above the threshold is indicative of additional factors and allows authorities to consider prima facie interference in the natural processes of the horse. Boldenone is similar along with many others including Cobalt Chloride.

Cobalt Chloride is a naturally occurring event? Cobalt maybe but Cobalt Chloride? It's a compound of Cobalt and Chlorine. Look here http://www.ehow.com/list_7791350_uses-cobalt-chloride.html
Manufactured for use in paint and ink.

Re http://hrnsw.com.au/hrnsw-notice1.html

If they didn't get any positives to it, how did they know it was being used?

[trish]

Exactly Paul.
Thought the same myself.



(Quote from HRNSW release)... HRNSW have been on record in recent days that there are a number of samples under further investigation since the introduction of the threshold.
If these samples were within the normal range, why then would they be under further investigation?

[trish]

http://www.harness.org.au/news-article.cfm?news_id=23118


Well done Reid, keep it up!

[BenScadden]

Bet they won't be the last, either, Trish

[Danno]

Hey Teecee,
where are you mate?

running around looking for a corner in a round yard??

more yet to come................stay tuned


cheers,
Dan

[trish]

While you ask for emotion to be left out of it I find it very humiliating, belittling and condescending that you toy with the idea of rubbing it in people's faces that they ate humble pie and even had to offer a retraction when 'common sense' prevailed.
With Boldenone there was in fact a positive swab for Barry Lew that he served 6 months for.
It is also concerning that you are quick to condemn those who offer resistance to the usage of prohibited and possibly harmful substances, yet when there is a defence of prohibited substances you turn a blind eye. I point to this thread where HRNZ and Mightymo have said Boldenone is naturally occuring with no basis to back those words up. (HRNZ and mighty I could well be correct in what they say, I only bring it up to point out no science was linked to support it, which is Teecees gripe) http://www.harnessracingforum.com/showthread.php?5459-Boldenone&p=30309

Now back to the common sense comment of yours. As per the above hyperlink, you will see a post of mine that links to a article that talks about one of your beloved scientific studies. (You now have to register to the site to view the article.) That study says boldenone is not naturally occuring. So as for boldenone being found in Mach Wipers sample...there was not one iota of 'common sense' behind that. The consensus at the conclusion of the saga was that nobody anywhere in the whole world has any idea what was happening with that sample. Yes McCarthy was correctly found not guilty, because to condemn on the basis of that weird sample wouldn't have been fair to McCarthy, it wasn't a normal sample and couldn't be determined McCarthy presented a horse to race with a prohibited substance. Innocent, nobody knows how the boldenone got in that sample. So to call it common sense and rub it up the noses of people is a fair dinkum insult to some people on this forum.

It is also disappointing with your legal knowledge and hush hush persona that you mention a retraction in your post, yet bait Danno into possibly sharing information that could get him in the shit.



Well said Brendan.

[Danno]

No one published a claim of having evidence Tony, that is stretching the facts a tad.

Post #44





We won't have long to wait to see who has egg on their face over this one, there is too much similar data available from too many different sources for me to pretend to myself there isn't an issue and it's just a press "beat up". And unfortunately I am the sort of person to say "I told you so"


It's a real issue, only two have been busted so far and I'm certain that when HRNSW sent out notification that a threshold had been set a number of trainers have made some adjustments to their treatment regimes.

Theres been a bit of baiting going on Tony, I'm not pretending your the only one.

Dan

[barney]

2 trainers have had there cases adjourned to 30/4/14 .They have 3 charges between them source [url]www.harness.org.au/

[aussiebreno]

http://www.harness.org.au/news-article.cfm?news_id=23393

Apologies if the link does not work, I am on my phone. 2.5 yrs Hardy and 3 yrs Nicholson. Won't be missed.

[Frano1982]

Maybe a couple more to follow them out the door???
It's all happening here in NSW...


http://www.harness.org.au/news-article.cfm?news_id=23392

[Messenger]

You just posted seconds before me Brendan but I am letting you have the free NZ trip and week at TeeCee's (you foiled my plan LOL)

[Richard prior]

Would love to be a fly on the wall if Danno won a trip to Teecee's, That would be interesting.

[Toohard]

Would love to be a fly on the wall if Danno won a trip to Teecee's, That would be interesting.


Danno 2nd prize... 2 weeks at Teecee's

[Richard prior]

Lmfao!!!!

[Danno]

I reckon Tee Cee has well and truly earnt a 2 week visit from Danno, but I'm not so sure that Danno has earnt 2 weeks at Tee Cee's!!! the events Adam highlighted were not surprising.....some people seem to think they can't train horses without some sort of edge. Mind they are only suspended so far, not proven guilty of anything yet.

we will wait and see. you never know some samples may change in the lab inexplicably.

Cheers,

Dan

[barney]

Must admit i am astounded by Dean McDowell as i have spoke to his Dad Colin on numerous occassions and he is vehmently anti drugs.Col is going to represent Australia as the amatuer rep in an overseas comp.

[Lucky Camilla"s Lovechild]

Rhys Nicholson as well. As far as im aware, his father Bulldog has never been rubbed out before. Makes you wonder who they have been associating with.

[barney]

Probably a case of cant beat them join them sad really

[trish]

Must admit i am astounded by Dean McDowell as i have spoke to his Dad Colin on numerous occassions and he is vehmently anti drugs.Col is going to represent Australia as the amatuer rep in an overseas comp.

Yes Colin & Cheryl loath drug cheats & I feel really sorry that they have to go through this. Colin has put a fortune into the game because he loves it.
I see he has a couple nomed for Menangle Tuesday so I wish him all the best.

[trish]

Probably a case of cant beat them join them sad really

Probably right Brian but I can not get my head around that they think its ok to cheat. Its NOT. When some performances still raise a RED FLAG they have a long way to go to clean this game up. Unfortunately this puts some NSW trainers at a disadvantage because trainers from outside this state inc NZ are not under the same intense screening and can come to our biggest race days without that constant pressure to run clean.

[Lucky Camilla"s Lovechild]

Probably right Brian but I can not get my head around that they think its ok to cheat. Its NOT. When some performances still raise a RED FLAG they have a long way to go to clean this game up. Unfortunately this puts some NSW trainers at a disadvantage because trainers from outside this state inc NZ are not under the same intense screening and can come to our biggest race days without that constant pressure to run clean.
Since when are interstate horses/trainers not swabbed in NSW?

[trish]

They are Leigh , but some of these drugs I believe , aren't being tested for in other states . NSW is light years ahead and I hope they keep it up . From what I have read and understand , some drugs have an affect that carries on for some time after the chance of getting a positive has gone . So a hit and run is possible

[trish]

And Its not possible but wouldn't it be great if HRA took Jeff Gural's Approach & banned cheats from racing at any registered tracks for life......that would be a certainty to either clean up OR finish the sport, it needs to do one or the other because if it doesn't do one the others a certainty!

“I didn’t spend $100 million to build a


racetrack so that dishonest people

could make a living racing there.”


–Jeff Gural

[Lucky Camilla"s Lovechild]

They are Leigh , but some of these drugs I believe , aren't being tested for in other states . NSW is light years ahead and I hope they keep it up . From what I have read and understand , some drugs have an affect that carries on for some time after the chance of getting a positive has gone . So a hit and run is possible
But if NSW are light years ahead, surely their testing will pick it up then?

[trish]

But if NSW are light years ahead, surely their testing will pick it up then?

My comment before explains that the affects of some drugs carries on long after it is possible to get a positive swab

[Lucky Camilla"s Lovechild]

My comment before explains that the affects of some drugs carries on long after it is possible to get a positive swab
Trish, how do you know what drugs visiting interstate and NZ trainers are using?

[Viv Strangman]

Probably right Brian but I can not get my head around that they think its ok to cheat. Its NOT. When some performances still raise a RED FLAG they have a long way to go to clean this game up. Unfortunately this puts some NSW trainers at a disadvantage because trainers from outside this state inc NZ are not under the same intense screening and can come to our biggest race days without that constant pressure to run clean.

If that were true then the hundreds of Kiwi horses in both codes who cross the Tasman to race each year would test positive at some point. To my knowledge none have and some have been there months. The reputations you are smearing here deserve way better than an ill informed wide sweeping rant as you have done here. If you have some proof, lets see it. Otherwise the only person here whose reputation is going down in a hurry is yours.

[trish]

If that were true then the hundreds of Kiwi horses in both codes who cross the Tasman to race each year would test positive at some point. To my knowledge none have and some have been there months. The reputations you are smearing here deserve way better than an ill informed wide sweeping rant as you have done here. If you have some proof, lets see it. Otherwise the only person here whose reputation is going down in a hurry is yours.

Haven't smeared anyone's reputation . I said that NSW trainers were put at a disadvantage as the testing procedures here are far more extensive and outside trainers have the OPORTUNITY to exploit it . Read what I wrote , not what you want to read into it . By the way , our testing procedures should be what all other states and NZ should be doing . Leave my reputation out of it .

[trish]

Trish, how do you know what drugs visiting interstate and NZ trainers are using?

Hi Leigh , never said they were . You know as much as me . What I said was they has an opportunity to exploit it where the NSW trainers are tested week in week out and tested for everything that is possible to test for at this stage .

[Messenger]

Hi Leigh , never said they were . You know as much as me . What I said was they has an opportunity to exploit it where the NSW trainers are tested week in week out and tested for everything that is possible to test for at this stage .
Maybe this just balances out the years when NSW players could pay a steward not to be tested ;)

[Danno]

Maybe this just balances out the years when NSW players could pay a steward not to be tested ;)

I think it's fair to say Kevin, that out of that disgraceful set of events, NSW is , as Trish indicated setting higher than previously seen standards and they are in fact IMO leading the way for other jurisdictions to follow.

Call me an idiot if you like but that was how I read the thrust of Trish's other posts on this thread...not that people coming into NSW were some how "rorting"anything, but in fact quite the opposite.

I'm sure Tee Cee will clear this up when he gets back from long service leave.


Cheers,
Dan

[trish]

I think it's fair to say Kevin, that out of that disgraceful set of events, NSW is , as Trish indicated setting higher than previously seen standards and they are in fact IMO leading the way for other jurisdictions to follow.

Call me an idiot if you like but that was how I read the thrust of Trish's other posts on this thread...not that people coming into NSW were some how "rorting"anything, but in fact quite the opposite.

I'm sure Tee Cee will clear this up when he gets back from long service leave.


Cheers,
Dan


Your far from an idiot Dan just educated enough to read it as I meant it. 10 outta 10 my lad.

[trish]

Maybe this just balances out the years when NSW players could pay a steward not to be tested ;)


Well what can I say!!!

[trish]

Viv.
On reflection I realise that I didn't answer your post fully. Your right, a lot of horses have come over from NZ to compete in Australia at the highest level. Without being negative I pose this question to you & I am truly interested. If we managed to breed a very good horse & want to race him at the top level in NZ, we would want to send him to a trainer whose reputation is unblemished & has competed consistently & regularly at the top level in Australia as well as NZ. This trainer would also have to have ZERO positive swabs. Can you give me the names of trainers who come here on a regular basis from NZ, compete at the highest level & fill all the criteria above because there is where our horse would go . Thanks

[Lucky Camilla"s Lovechild]

Maybe this just balances out the years when NSW players could pay a steward not to be tested ;)
Gold Kev!!!!

[aussiebreno]

Maybe this just balances out the years when NSW players could pay a steward not to be tested ;)
Hahahaha!!!

[Mitch]

Must admit i am astounded by Dean McDowell as i have spoke to his Dad Colin on numerous occassions and he is vehmently anti drugs.Col is going to represent Australia as the amatuer rep in an overseas comp.

I agree. I don't know them personally and I'm no fan of Colin as a driver but I highly doubt the McDowells would engage in this type of behaviour. They run an extremely successful business and harness is more of a hobby for them. It doesn't really make sense.

[Mitch]

They are Leigh , but some of these drugs I believe , aren't being tested for in other states . NSW is light years ahead and I hope they keep it up . From what I have read and understand , some drugs have an affect that carries on for some time after the chance of getting a positive has gone . So a hit and run is possible

I hope all states continue to take a thorough approach to catching drug cheats. I also hope all states put more effort into improving all areas of integrity in our sport. Drug cheats are only part of the problem, there are many other aspects that aren't being appropriately addressed that have just as big an impact on participation and generating wagering increases.

[Richard prior]

Yes, The cheats need to be driven out of the game and as you mentioned Mitch, The controlling bodies all need to take a firm stance as one and address the problem. As this topic has raged on we have seen a lot of different opinions and for those that have stuck their heads in a hole, It's real and not in your imagination and i'm fairly sure we haven't seen the end if it yet. Congrats to HRNSW for their good work with this problem and I hope that all of the other states get on board ASAP.

[Mitch]

Yes, The cheats need to be driven out of the game and as you mentioned Mitch, The controlling bodies all need to take a firm stance as one and address the problem. As this topic has raged on we have seen a lot of different opinions and for those that have stuck their heads in a hole, It's real and not in your imagination and i'm fairly sure we haven't seen the end if it yet. Congrats to HRNSW for their good work with this problem and I hope that all of the other states get on board ASAP.

Rich, the point I was trying to make is that I think more needs to be done in areas of integrity outside of drug testing. Things like the application of the change of tactics rule, restricted access to race day stables at every meeting, better training of inexperienced stewards to read race patterns and identify questionable tactics etc etc.

I believe the average punter couldn't give a rats if a trainer is drugging their horse, they care more about race tactics and patterns being properly enforced by stewards because that what's they know and thats what's visible in the form guide. Unless they have inside info they wouldn't have a clue if a horse has been drugged, so from a pure punting perspective it's insignificant in many ways. It's the other industry participants (mainly trainers and owners) that care more about the drug cheats.

The reason I say this is the tricky balance all racing bodies have to manage is how to drive wagering revenue and increase participation at the same time. As stupid as it sounds this is somewhat at odds with each other when you look at the challenges faced.

If people think rubbing out all the drug cheats is good for wagering revenue then I think they are wrong. In fact it may end up having an adverse effect. Think about it.....

Integrity is a very broad topic. So whilst I encourage drug testing regimes to continue I also urge all racing bodies to invest harder and faster in other areas of integrity that will drive wagering revenue because that is the single most important thing our sports needs.

I hope that makes sense.

[Messenger]

First of all Rich - you need to empty your inbox

Mitch, whether rubbing out all the drug cheats is good for the sport as in good for wagering is an interesting one. One thing I would suggest is that the big pro punter is always going to punt and the small punter that has a tipple is probably never going to read about it, so the only one's possibly effected/put off would seem to be the enthusiasts - so I think not. Was there a drop in punting as a result of the NSW stewards scandal?

[Triple V]

Yes Colin & Cheryl loath drug cheats & I feel really sorry that they have to go through this. Colin has put a fortune into the game because he loves it.
I see he has a couple nomed for Menangle Tuesday so I wish him all the best.

VVV- I don't think for a minute that anyone has done anything wrong but at the same time I can't help thinking that if it were certain other stables involved here Trish....ones you're no great fan of...that you'd instead be all over them like a Seagull on a hot chip. Call me a cynic.

[trish]

VVV- I don't think for a minute that anyone has done anything wrong but at the same time I can't help thinking that if it were certain other stables involved here Trish....ones you're no great fan of...that you'd instead be all over them like a Seagull on a hot chip. Call me a cynic.

Hi Jaimie . No one has been found guilty as yet . We learnt our lesson and as far as that "other stable" is concerned , things are quite amicable . We met at Newcastle the other week and he asked us how we were doing . No problems or hard feelings there at all . You need to let go Triple . My post was about Collin and Cheryl . No one else .

[trish]

"I believe the average punter couldn't give a rats if a trainer is drugging their horse"

Hi Mitch
That's fine and probably right as far as the gallopers & dogs are concerned but harness racing is unique in as much that the majority of punters have a direct link to the industry. If participants leave then they take many punters with them. We've seen participation drop constantly over the last decade & paralleling this has been a decline in punting to the point where we now sit at the bottom of the code pool. We speak to many , many people who are feed up & have already planed to leave because of the cheats. We have a dozen horses & now have glimmer of hope that they may be able to compete at an even level.
We applaud Reid Sanders & his team, he may save the industry yet.

[BenScadden]

Harness racing is unique in as much that the majority of punters have a direct link to the industry
I've never seen a shred of evidence to suggest that's the case, Trish.

[Greg Hando]

Two more licenses suspended for Cobalt - Neil Day and Noel Tyndall

[aussiebreno]

Two more licenses suspended for Cobalt - Neil DaylIf anybody is familiar with Brian Taylors commentary this is all I could think of when reading this "Boy oh boy, wow wee".

[trish]

I've never seen a shred of evidence to suggest that's the case, Trish.

No problem Ben, next time your at the TAB talk to anyone you might find betting on harness racing & may find like we have they know someone.
Cheers

[trish]

Two more licenses suspended for Cobalt - Neil Day and Noel Tyndall

oh that's sad if its true......

[BenScadden]

No problem Ben, next time your at the TAB talk to anyone you might find betting on harness racing & may find like we have they know someone.
CheersHaving worked directly with senior management at corporate betting agencies and TABs for more than 20 years, I've never seen any research that suggests people who bet on harness racing are any different than those who wager on greyhound or thoroughbred racing. Chatting to 20 people at your local TAB probably doesn't offer a true cross-section of the tens of thousands of people who have a punt each day. Cheers

[trish]

Having worked directly with senior management at corporate betting agencies and TABs for more than 20 years, I've never seen any research that suggests people who bet on harness racing are any different than those who wager on greyhound or thoroughbred racing. Chatting to 20 people at your local TAB probably doesn't offer a true cross-section of the tens of thousands of people who have a punt each day. Cheers

Fair enough Ben, that's what we've found over the years. Its probably something that the Authority should have researched years ago . Surely they should know the people that they are trying to sell something to . All the best

[BenScadden]

Fair enough Ben, that's what we've found over the years. Its probably something that the Authority should have researched years ago . Surely they should know the people that they are trying to sell something to . All the bestNo worries. The betting agencies (including TABs) spend vast sums doing market research to get a better sense of who's using their product. They're turning over billions of dollars every year - and knowing their customer base is a significant focus of their business.

[mightymo]

Just playing devils advocate here:

Some of the trainers returning positives to Cobalt have very long and unblemished careers but with a threshold for Cobalt only recently introduced late last year, is it possible that the level that has been set is just too low??

[aussiebreno]

Just playing devils advocate here:

Some of the trainers returning positives to Cobalt have very long and unblemished careers but with a threshold for Cobalt only recently introduced late last year, is it possible that the level that has been set is just too low??
This and similar excuses crossed my mind too, but Nicholson and Hardy both pleaded guilty. Of course they pled guilty to presenting a horse to the races with prohibited substance, rather than pleading guilty to actually administering Cobalt which is two different things. BUT...while I personally have only read stewards wraps and some media reports, I haven't seen Nicholson or Hardy try to protest some form of innocence that they did not actually administer cobalt. If they aren't protesting innocence or leniency in that they didn't actually administer cobalt, then surely one can assume that they did in fact administer it?

Whether it's a new or an old level I guess people can always try and argue that the level is set too low. I wonder if we need to review the level for Bicarb, Bute etc what do you think?

Edit: I just read another link saying Hardy pled not guilty so there goes this post lol!

[mightymo]

Im not an expert in this field, but we have years of data to use regarding most of these naturally occurring substances. Many jurisdictions and codes have yet to implement any levels for Cobalt as they dont know what level to use as a threshold.

With these positives all happening long after trainers were put on notice about the cobalt issue, I just cant believe that so many trainers would be stupid enough to continue using and hence i have concerns that the level may be too low and is picking up positives where there has been no additional administration of cobalt.

PS - i have no relationship with any of the trainers suspended so its not like im going in to bat for someone. I am genuinely raising a possible issue

[trish]

Hi Harvey . HRNSW have set their level at twice what the Hong Kong Jockey Club set their level at . Reid Sanders would never jump in half baked . I understand he left no stone unturned and worked closely with the HKJC to establish a more than fair level that actually is biased towards the trainer . They've set this level for a reason and as an owner / breeder I actually feel that a weight has been lifted and now that , if our horses are good enough , they have a fair chance .

P.S None of us know how far over the limit these trainers went so your argument may be invalid

[mightymo]

I wasnt aware that the level is actually double the HKJC. if that is the case, then maybe there are a whole bunch of dumb trainers who are either cheating or giving there horses products of which they do not know the contents...

[Njcstables]

Harvey, I believe you've hit the nail on the head on both counts there!

[mango]

Hi Harvey

I think it is 90 for cobalt in America and 200 in n.s.w but I will try and confirm that (America). A lot of horse products have cobalt in them and when using multiple products it may raise the horses levels. As I don't know how high the levels have been with the trainers who have been stood down I'll sit on the fence on this one. The question I would like to ask is why does a trainer get stood down and has to move horses to other trainers before he has been before the stewards and a decision handed down, because if found not guilty it could open up legal ramifications for h.r.n.s.w one would think.

[Toohard]

Am no expert but believe Cobalt by itself is not performance enhancing. Natural element in ground. Guess works its way into horses via grazing on pasture. Most feeds you buy contain cobalt. Enough to make up for any deficiency in pasture have read. Feeds for younger horses contain more than feeds for older ones. Guess something horses need when growing. From what have read feeding a product with cobalt in it when paddock already had enough cobalt in it would put you nowhere near the limits recently introduced.

Cobalt Chloride a different thing. Man made. Think it mainly used like a paint stripper. Poisonous. But in small doses can make horse 'fight' against it by producing heaps red blood cells. Red ones carry oxygen. Refer EPO, etc.

Told and read there is no test for Cobalt Chloride. The chloride part disappears real quick as horses body removes it by producing red bloods cells to combat it. But the cobalt hang around for a while and can be tested for.

Guess you get over limit to it (cobalt) they saying "How it get there?" Can't be from feed (maybe) so how it get there?

Do Google search "Cobalt Chloride" and have a read. One still there today says "Doesn't swab"...

[trish]

I wasnt aware that the level is actually double the HKJC. if that is the case, then maybe there are a whole bunch of dumb trainers who are either cheating or giving there horses products of which they do not know the contents...

For the first time ever Harvey we fully agree.
In Hong Kong the threshold is 100 micrograms per litre.
At the Meadowlands it is 200.

[Lucky Camilla"s Lovechild]

Hi Harvey

I think it is 90 for cobalt in America and 200 in n.s.w but I will try and confirm that (America). A lot of horse products have cobalt in them and when using multiple products it may raise the horses levels. As I don't know how high the levels have been with the trainers who have been stood down I'll sit on the fence on this one. The question I would like to ask is why does a trainer get stood down and has to move horses to other trainers before he has been before the stewards and a decision handed down, because if found not guilty it could open up legal ramifications for h.r.n.s.w one would think.
But arent they guilty already because they have a 'positive', and are waiting for the sentence? After that they have to prove their innocence? Is that correct?

[barney]

Has anyone noticed that in Nsw Dean McDowell licence suspeneded immeadiatly but in Vic Braun has also had positive but is still training.Different drug but positive is a positive.
I see Col has the horse in Tuesday in his name

[Lucky Camilla"s Lovechild]

Good point!

[Triple V]

Hi Jaimie . No one has been found guilty as yet . We learnt our lesson and as far as that "other stable" is concerned , things are quite amicable . We met at Newcastle the other week and he asked us how we were doing . No problems or hard feelings there at all . You need to let go Triple . My post was about Collin and Cheryl . No one else .

VVV- As they say in the classic Courtroom Dramas..."You opened the door Counsellor".
Trish, do you know if there's any Rule that covers unsolicited Third Party involvement/influence/pressure being brought to bear with regard to the Driver choices of other Owners? :confused:

[barney]

On the other point i have been involved in insiderail.com/forum for a long time now and the interest in harness racing has never been lower.I see it every day with comments members on there make and the main reason seems to me to be the dominance of stables so people dont bet on a lot of the races mainly Cramp in Mildura which used to be one of our popular tracks now interest zero.
I personaly have a lot of success in Nsw country and Newcastle as well.

[trish]

VVV- As they say in the classic Courtroom Dramas..."You opened the door Counsellor".
Trish, do you know if there's any Rule that covers unsolicited Third Party involvement/influence/pressure being brought to bear with regard to the Driver choices of other Owners? :confused:

Hi Jaimie
No I don't. Maybe ask Harvey he has his finger on the pulse. Let me know if you find out.

[trish]

But arent they guilty already because they have a 'positive', and are waiting for the sentence? After that they have to prove their innocence? Is that correct?

Hi Leigh
NO.
A positive does not make them guilty, believe me.
maybe its a bit like being arrested for a crime, you still have your day in court.

[trish]

Someone pasted this before maybe Dan??? not sure.

http://www.vpxsports.com/article-detail/drugs/cobalt-chloride-for-increasing-epo

The rat died at day 8......that can not be good.

[Frano1982]

And not all of them are let out on bail are they???
So if they're stood down, their stood down...
I kinda like it because it should go somewhere to stop the ridiculous adjournment of enquiries all the time and the constant appeals on a stay of precedings when they're very unlikely to succeed!!!

[teecee]

The rules relating to presenting a horse to race with a prohibited substance, or in case of excess of a set threshold, in its system is a rule of absolute liability. Stewards only have to present the evidence in the form of an analysts certificate confirming the presence of the prohibited substance. It is on that basis that stand downs are applied.


Such situations in no way reflect a day in the criminal court.

[Danno]

Absolutley true Tony, but its a real issue, that affects real races, with real ramifications hey? not just a "media story". this particularly dangerous substance has been used by quite a few trainers as I alluded to some time ago. Told you so. More "victims" to come, as I also told you.

[p plater]

Hey Dan, with your inside knowledge ....is there any truth in what a trainer told me some time ago that the "supplier" was from up your way and the product comes from USA

[Messenger]

It is indeed interesting that they have been stood down straight away ie when you compare to say Braun in Vic.
It has got me beat why you would use a banned sub when you were warned and told a date for a threshold being introduced.

[Richard prior]

It is indeed interesting that they have been stood down straight away ie when you compare to say Braun in Vic.
It has got me beat why you would use a banned sub when you were warned and told a date for a threshold being introduced.

Greed Kev!!!

[Messenger]

Makes me think of nicotine - didn't they believe the warnings. At least with the fags we are talking about an addiction - if the trainers were taking the cobalt it would almost make more sense LOL

[Richard prior]

Lmfao, Maybe they are!!

[Triple V]

Hi Jaimie
No I don't. Maybe ask Harvey he has his finger on the pulse. Let me know if you find out.

VVV- So during your time in the Industry you've never had any experience of that sort of thing ever happening? Never even heard of it happening before?

[trish]

VVV- So during your time in the Industry you've never had any experience of that sort of thing ever happening? Never even heard of it happening before?

Hi Jaimie . I did answer your question . I don't know of such a rule , but, there are rules covering threats and intimidation . We've never had the need to find out . Have you ?

[Messenger]

VVV- As they say in the classic Courtroom Dramas..."You opened the door Counsellor".
Trish, do you know if there's any Rule that covers unsolicited Third Party involvement/influence/pressure being brought to bear with regard to the Driver choices of other Owners? :confused:

VVV is this a private point between you and Trish or has it got something to do with Cobalt Chloride?

[trish]

http://www.harness.org.au/news-article.cfm?news_id=23612

[djgood]

4 positives in total today , never ending battle

[Danno]

4 positives in total today , never ending battle

Dave, I dont want to sound like a cranky old irrelevant bloke, but yes the game is leaning towards trainers with chemistry skills are more successful than trainers with hosemanship skills................................join the dots mate, examine the form, each individual horses ability before and after and after going through that exercise make your own judgement/opinion.

[aussiebreno]

Dave, I dont want to sound like a cranky old irrelevant bloke, but yes the game is leaning towards trainers with chemistry skills are more successful than trainers with hosemanship skills................................join the dots mate, examine the form, each individual horses ability before and after and after going through that exercise make your own judgement/opinion.
It's funny how some horses can grow a leg in 7 days. At least be smart about it and wait 4-6 weeks.
I hate how you and other honest trainers have to gear up and stable next to cheats, I don't know how the chemists can look honest horsepeople in the eye and say Gday.
Not you, but there are honest/good people in the industry who say congratulations and celebrate the success of these cheats. It's sad. If someone steals a $200 flat screen TV they are scum of the earth, if someone juices up their horse and cheats you out of prizemoney they get celebrated in the media for getting 4 winners or some crap.

[Messenger]

I can't remember the details but I do remember decades ago there was a leading american trainer who only trained 2yo's then sold them as he said he had no desire to compete with the chemists [said 2yo's were not a favourite of the chemists - too much 'training' skill required]

[Danno]

It's funny how some horses can grow a leg in 7 days. At least be smart about it and wait 4-6 weeks.
I hate how you and other honest trainers have to gear up and stable next to cheats, I don't know how the chemists can look honest horsepeople in the eye and say Gday.
Not you, but there are honest/good people in the industry who say congratulations and celebrate the success of these cheats. It's sad. If someone steals a $200 flat screen TV they are scum of the earth, if someone juices up their horse and cheats you out of prizemoney they get celebrated in the media for getting 4 winners or some crap.

As for the cheats looking you in the eye mate I don't know how other people think Brenno, but my theory is they think they are being "smarter" than the rest of us, I have witnessed the behaviour of many types of people with poor ethics and they more often than not find a way to justify their behaviour to themselves..........the rest of us in this game just look at them like they are the scum are and leave it at that....do or say anything more and your labelled "jealous" or "disrespectful".

But yes it is not easy, particularly when you are the guy that runs second to them knowing full well they are not participating on a level playing field.

cheers,
Dan

[jackthepunter]

It's funny how some horses can grow a leg in 7 days. At least be smart about it and wait 4-6 weeks.
I hate how you and other honest trainers have to gear up and stable next to cheats, I don't know how the chemists can look honest horsepeople in the eye and say Gday.
Not you, but there are honest/good people in the industry who say congratulations and celebrate the success of these cheats. It's sad. If someone steals a $200 flat screen TV they are scum of the earth, if someone juices up their horse and cheats you out of prizemoney they get celebrated in the media for getting 4 winners or some crap.

Its the sad fact of life that a lot of leading trainers in this sport as well as the thoughbreds are not able to be leading trainers with out the help they give their horses.
And also the way the media treat them as great blokes when a lot of them are not when the camara's ain't around.

[jackthepunter]

[QUOTE=Danno;32634]As for the cheats looking you in the eye mate I don't know how other people think Brenno, but my theory is they think they are being "smarter" than the rest of us, I have witnessed the behaviour of many types of people with poor ethics and they more often than not find a way to justify their behaviour to themselves..........the rest of us in this game just look at them like they are the scum are and leave it at that....do or say anything more and your labelled "jealous" or "disrespectful".

But yes it is not easy, particularly when you are the guy that runs second to them knowing full well they are not participating on a level playing field.

Thats the problem most of us know who these people are. But for some reason their uncatchable. Who knows the real reasons as to why?

[trish]

These idiots don't realise they are destroying their own industry..........derrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr. The dishonesty in this game is disgusting.
And they don't care. Maybe they will when harness racing ceases to exist because of them. You will know who they are , they will scream the loudest. I think that they actually believe that they are good trainers . We see some of these multiple offenders are recognised as "great trainers" and hero's of the sport . THINK ABOUT THAT . Some of our hero's are just cheats . Sounds like we're building our foundations on a swamp . Our CEO reminds me of Captain Francesco Schettino of the Costa Concordia , he's bailing out before the ship sinks , but who can blame him . He hasn't taken an oath .

[jackthepunter]

These idiots don't realise they are destroying their own industry..........derrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr. The dishonesty in this game is disgusting.
And they don't care. Maybe they will when harness racing ceases to exist because of them. You will know who they are , they will scream the loudest. I think that they actually believe that they are good trainers . We see some of these multiple offenders are recognised as "great trainers" and hero's of the sport . THINK ABOUT THAT . Some of our hero's are just cheats . Sounds like we're building our foundations on a swamp . Our CEO reminds me of Captain Francesco Schettino of the Costa Concordia , he's bailing out before the ship sinks , but who can blame him . He hasn't taken an oath .
Thats one of the big issues the person consider the greatest trainer and driver
the sports ever seen was possible the biggest drug cheat ever.

[p plater]

[QUOTE=aussiebreno;32630]It's funny how some horses can grow a leg in 7 days. At least be smart about it and wait 4-6 weeks.

Like in race 6 tonight at Penrith

[Arty]

Hi everyone ... I have been watching and reading these posts on this site for some time now and if it's ok with the group I just have a few questions if anyone would like to oblige. Sorry if some of my observations are not accurate but I base my knowledge of this sport on information collected from close friends and family involved in the sport and my own observations.

Question 1

Are the trainers that you all are referring too as drug cheats that can't be caught. Are these trainers that have never been found to be using drugs at all in their past . Is there any evidence to suggest otherwise other than your opinion ???

[Danno]

Hi everyone ... I have been watching and reading these posts on this site for some time now and if it's ok with the group I just have a few questions if anyone would like to oblige. Sorry if some of my observations are not accurate but I base my knowledge of this sport on information collected from close friends and family involved in the sport and my own observations.

Question 1

Are the trainers that you all are referring too as drug cheats that can't be caught. Are these trainers that have never been found to be using drugs at all in their past . Is there any evidence to suggest otherwise other than your opinion ???

G'day Arty,
the people I was referring to have been busted at least once but most of them multiple times.

I think you will find most people are referring to these types rather than people who have not been busted, but I'll let others do their own talking.

cheers,
Dan

[trish]

Hi everyone ... I have been watching and reading these posts on this site for some time now and if it's ok with the group I just have a few questions if anyone would like to oblige. Sorry if some of my observations are not accurate but I base my knowledge of this sport on information collected from close friends and family involved in the sport and my own observations.

Question 1

Are the trainers that you all are referring too as drug cheats that can't be caught. Are these trainers that have never been found to be using drugs at all in their past . Is there any evidence to suggest otherwise other than your opinion ???


Here you go Arty.
You can start here.
http://www.harness.org.au/news-archive.cfm?period=all&pCategoryId=7&limitToState=AUS&x=41&y=11

[Arty]

Thanx guys. I am well aware of the people that she been caught with the current testing of cobalt. And from what I have been told cobalt needs to be treated on race day which in itself against the rules . I was just under the understanding that a lot of the comments about certain leading trainers improving horses and winning multiple race are the ones that haven't been convicted or even linked to any positive swabs yet are still being accused of being cheats . Is this correct ?

[Arty]

2nd question ::

I have been told that levels of cobalt above 200 are very very dangerous to a horses health particularly a horses liver can anyone confirm this and if this is the case does this mean this substance is more than just a performance enhancing treatment charge ?

[trish]

Did you hear about the American guy called Arty who strangled 2 people for the measly sum of 1 dollar?
Headlines read the next day Arty chokes 2 for 1$.
HAHAHA

[aussiebreno]

Hi everyone ... I have been watching and reading these posts on this site for some time now and if it's ok with the group I just have a few questions if anyone would like to oblige. Sorry if some of my observations are not accurate but I base my knowledge of this sport on information collected from close friends and family involved in the sport and my own observations.

Question 1

Are the trainers that you all are referring too as drug cheats that can't be caught. Are these trainers that have never been found to be using drugs at all in their past . Is there any evidence to suggest otherwise other than your opinion ???Personally I stick to publically criticising those with a positive swab or guilty verdict over their head. Privatelly Ive suspected a few trainers over the years and I reckon my hits v misses is about 90% and rising.

[Arty]

I guess what I am getting at is the following. If HRNSW is currently the leader in drug testing in Australia which I think we could all agree is the case. Then the trainers that have risen to the top over the past few years and are still achieving the same result after being continuously tested . Would it then become blatantly clear that maybe these trainers are infact the best trainers and horseman. At which point to we stop suspecting foul play and start acknowledging the level of their achievements. Not only am I talkig abou the leading trainers but also those trainers with selective stables who pound for pound do a tremdeous job . The trainers that either have been caught since the improvements in drug testing or have lost the ability to retain the level of achievement due to being unable to treat their horses surely these people are the butt of the conversations not the people who are achieving career best goals even under the strict drug testing currently imposed on trainers in nsw . Thoughts ?

[aussiebreno]

I guess what I am getting at is the following. If HRNSW is currently the leader in drug testing in Australia which I think we could all agree is the case. Then the trainers that have risen to the top over the past few years and are still achieving the same result after being continuously tested . Would it then become blatantly clear that maybe these trainers are infact the best trainers and horseman. At which point to we stop suspecting foul play and start acknowledging the level of their achievements. Not only am I talkig abou the leading trainers but also those trainers with selective stables who pound for pound do a tremdeous job . The trainers that either have been caught since the improvements in drug testing or have lost the ability to retain the level of achievement due to being unable to treat their horses surely these people are the butt of the conversations not the people who are achieving career best goals even under the strict drug testing currently imposed on trainers in nsw . Thoughts ?

Thoughts are youre jumping at shadows. Trish and others have only linked and spoken about cases where trainers have received positives.

[jackthepunter]

I guess what I am getting at is the following. If HRNSW is currently the leader in drug testing in Australia which I think we could all agree is the case. Then the trainers that have risen to the top over the past few years and are still achieving the same result after being continuously tested . Would it then become blatantly clear that maybe these trainers are infact the best trainers and horseman. At which point to we stop suspecting foul play and start acknowledging the level of their achievements. Not only am I talkig abou the leading trainers but also those trainers with selective stables who pound for pound do a tremdeous job . The trainers that either have been caught since the improvements in drug testing or have lost the ability to retain the level of achievement due to being unable to treat their horses surely these people are the butt of the conversations not the people who are achieving career best goals even under the strict drug testing currently imposed on trainers in nsw . Thoughts ?

lance armstrong ring any bells?

[Arty]

You know what I was wondering what would happen if someone actaully spoke up for the people that everyone seems happy to criticize. So in response I get accused of being someone I'm not and then get abused. I guess it shows the mind set of the people involved in this environment and their one track way of thinking.

[trish]

Arty who told you its needs to be used on race day?
That's a long way from the truth.

[trish]

I can assure you that I'm NOT sticking up for them. Mark keeps saying woof woof in the background, does that help.

[Wilso]

I can assure you that I'm NOT sticking up for them. Mark keeps saying woof woof in the background, does that help.

I didnt mean you Trish sorry.
Haha yes that helps.
From my understanding it can be used up to 3 days out?
It can also be used on day of the race.
Maybe Mr Peterson is giving us an insight into something. .......

[trish]

I didnt mean you Trish sorry.
Haha yes that helps.
From my understanding it can be used up to 3 days out?
It can also be used on day of the race.
Maybe Mr Peterson is giving us an insight into something. .......


No worries.
Best results can be obtained using it several weeks out.

[Wilso]

No worries.
Best results can be obtained using it several weeks out.

Ahh ok. I don't even think HRNSW knows enough about it to be honest.
I did see today Darren Smith was stood down by racing NSW after a stable inspection and cobalt irregularities

[trish]

http://www.sportsfan.com.au/nsw-stewards-open-cobalt-probe/tabid/91/newsid/132947/default.aspx

There ya go . Saves everyone looking for it

[Richard prior]

Ooops!!

[Danno]

I bet all the honest trainers in thoroughbred racing love Darren Smith too! a career littered with multiple substance breaches!

http://www.sportsfan.com.au/nsw-stewards-open-cobalt-probe/tabid/91/newsid/132947/default.aspx

[Wilso]

My previous post has been removed by Teecee, I understand why but I am still aloud to say. .
WOOF WOOF!

[jackthepunter]

I bet all the honest trainers in thoroughbred racing love Darren Smith too! a career littered with multiple substance breaches!

http://www.sportsfan.com.au/nsw-stewards-open-cobalt-probe/tabid/91/newsid/132947/default.aspx

The stewards in this country for all codes are piss weak, this guy had 8 drug related
changes before and his still been training. Stuff this fineing or 6-12months crap. The industry
needs to grow a big pair of balls, regradeless of what drug it is, bi carb , epo or cc,what ever,their
caught with. First time caught 5 years, second,10 years and,of their stupid enough for a third give
them life. The pentiles they give out are a joke.

[Lucky Camilla"s Lovechild]

Spot on Jack! Its just a revolving door at the moment.

[Messenger]

You know what I was wondering what would happen if someone actaully spoke up for the people that everyone seems happy to criticize. So in response I get accused of being someone I'm not and then get abused. I guess it shows the mind set of the people involved in this environment and their one track way of thinking.
What people specifically are you speaking up for Arty - name some cleanskins that have been singled out on this forum.
What is your involvement or qualification that makes you knowledgeable on this topic?
Has an abusive post been deleted or are you only referring to those still posted? TIP: Ocean swimmers smear themselves with lard to protect their sensitive skin
LOL your last sentence is as one way as you get as you seem to be suggesting there is only ONE mindset

[Wilso]

What people specifically are you speaking up for Arty - name some cleanskins that have been singled out on this forum.
What is your involvement or qualification that makes you knowledgeable on this topic?
Has an abusive post been deleted or are you only referring to those still posted? TIP: Ocean swimmers smear themselves with lard to protect their sensitive skin
LOL your last sentence is as one way as you get as you seem to be suggesting there is only ONE mindset

I had a post deleted mate because I suggested that "Arty" wasnt who he said he was and that he was in fact a certain guilty trainer.
However I cant prove my theory so moderators removed my post.

[djgood]

Arty
I had a trainer come up to me complaining bout people talking bout him accusations of using drugs I thought about this for a while since and I have a suggestion for trainers worried about it , open your stable to the accusers offer them a few weeks observing training and feeding regimes and race day preps , kill the rumours straight up that way ,
When Trish won the trainers premiership at Newcastle the talk was the same but her and her training partner were living and training on my property and I dispelled lots of rumours cause I was there 99% of the time and can gaurentee no drenches were used no drugs of any sort

[djgood]

Also my time training in the U.S opened my eyes up to the stuff being used lots if stuff that wouldn't make a blip on a drug test back then ,

Also a lot of Chinese herbs are coming in that won't pick up in a swab but are well known to help bleeders and act as painkillers , couple of Newcastle stables using I know of due to loose lips by drunk stable associates

[cyclone george]

Since when have herbs been drugs!

[djgood]

Not saying they are but depends on when given to horse ?

[djgood]

A lot of them have to be given race day and that's illegal

[djgood]

A rule I believe is wrong I think vitamins , and electrolytes should be able to be given on race days especially hot days

[cyclone george]

I feel sorry for every stable in Newcastle with a post like that ,you have slurred every stable in Newcastle because of a couple of so called drunks at a pub .herbs for Christ sake I better get my horses of honey and garlic,anyway if a natural herb stops a horse bleeding isn't that good that allows that horse to reach it natural ability without using drugs

[Wilso]

I feel sorry for every stable in Newcastle with a post like that ,you have slurred every stable in Newcastle because of a couple of so called drunks at a pub .herbs for Christ sake I better get my horses of honey and garlic,anyway if a natural herb stops a horse bleeding isn't that good that allows that horse to reach it natural ability without using drugs

I know there was one certain herb ( the name escapes me atm),
That you could buy from Garrards that used correctly aided in the stopping of bleeding.
To be used correctly it would be used in a pre race administration.
The product is no longer available at Garrards

[trish]

http://www.csicop.org/si/show/herbs_are_drugs

[cyclone george]

Trish do I need to say anymore . Read the first and last paragraphs,there no signitific proof they do anything, and are basically useless except maybe if your horse has depression. For Christ sake if people believe herbs and vitamins give your horses to race above there ability then I believe Jesus will reappear next week. All they do is maintain a healthy immune system in your horse hopefully but a lot of that is unproven. They did a human trail on vitamin and herb pills on about fifty people that swore that they felt better on there supplement program ,they gave 30 of the 50 make beleive pills for one month at the end of the trail every one ,that's right 100% said they were still on there supplement program. I don't know if they could run faster though and I'm not sure if the trial was in Newcastle

[trish]

I not having a go at you but most drugs are derived from plants, this is apparent from a number of people having positive swabs from horses grazing in paddocks.
Also it has been proven a vitamin supplement everyday you will live longer. That is fact. People on the east coast have a 4 times more likely chance of dying of a heart attack than the west coast & this has been accredited to the mineral content in the water.
Mate I take vitamins & minerals everyday.

[cyclone george]

If that's a fact Trish kiwis would live for ever with there mineral water,no wonder all there doctors are over here

[djgood]

I use Chinese herbs on my horses , how have I slurred them ? Used correctly herbs are fine , I'm sorry if I slurred all stables in Newcastle cause a couple of stable hands like to boast at the trots I was just stating what I've been told

[djgood]

Sorry I reread my posts and yes they do sound slanderous and I'm sorry for it , I was trying to put forward that it's not so clear cut anymore traditional doping is gone and trainers getting more sophisticated and with google now you can find almost anything you want the cobalt issue just confirms that point a item used in a lot of horse products used in big enough doses can affect performance

[Wilso]

Each trainer has there own husbandry practices they believe in.
If it be certain vitamins daily, a iron injection once a week, your herbal medicine,
Bute after a race to aid recovery.
A saline drench or drip before or after a race.
Everyone has there own practice they believe in.
None are incorrect however if you get a positive swab then they obviously are.
If you choose to administer something that swabs you are playing with fire, its a risk you take.
You are only a cheat once you get caught IMO LOL

[trish]

http://m.theage.com.au/sport/horseracing/harness-racing-australia-goes-global-in-its-war-on-drugs-20140531-zrtpg.html

[jackthepunter]

Cobalt Chloride use had been detected in Victoria

Darryl Sherer - 1/06/2014
Victorian-trained horses had been detected with excessive levels of Cobalt Chloride in their system prior to it being listed as a prohibited substance.

Racing Victoria chief steward Terry Bailey said there had been evidence of its use and that had prompted Racing Victoria to identify it and introduce a threshold limit of 200 micrograms per litre in urine from April 14 this year.

"Cobalt occurs naturally in a horse and introducing rules for a threshold was not straightforward but we are fortunate the Racing Victoria board and Bernard Saundry backed us by putting a rule in place and it puts us on solid ground in Victoria.” Bailey said on Radio RSN Sunday.

Racing NSW stewards conducted a search of trainer Darren Smith’s Broadmeadow stables on Friday morning and found evidence of Cobalt Chloride use, scratching Smith’s two runners at Rosehill on Saturday and refusing nominations of horses trained by him.

Bailey said ‘posession of Cobalt Chloride is an offence’ for licenced persons and the Racing NSW case is ‘interesting and one that we will watch with interest’

"All we want is an equal playing field and we are satisfied that the rule we have in place is adequate until further tests are done on this substance,” he said.

Bailey confirmed that swab samples had detected horses with elevated levels of Cobalt Chloride in their system prior to the threshold limit rule being introduced.

"Since the rule came in we’re certainly pleased and confident we don’t have an issue with it here (Victoria) based on the results so far.

"We did have some evidence of that prior to the rule being implemented but I’m pleased to say the rule seems to have served as a deterrent and our tests are suggesting that.” he said.

Every swab sample taken in Victoria from April 14 has been tested for Cobalt Chloride.


This has to been the greatest piss take of all time. Basically will work out witch trainers are over the limit, give them plenty of warning to stop then start testing for it what a joke. Terry Bailey has said in the past their know about it possible use for over 12 months and hong kong have had their level set at 100mg for some time.
Yet harness racing always cops the bad rap, because some of the time we go after people before the fact. Yet the gallops of course are so clean when they race for millions of dollor and we race for a few thousand. Your got to have a good laugh at this.

[jackthepunter]

Harness Racing Australia goes global in its war ondrugs

Date May 31, 2014

Chris Roots (http://www.smh.com.au/sport/by/Chris-Roots)

Racing writer for The Sydney Morning Herald



·(0)
Harness Racing Australia in collaboration with theOntario Racing Commission is set to go live with sharing integrity informationon July 1 to help in the battle with prohibited substances.
The initiative, part of the new "InternationalRacing Integrity Intelligence System", is aimed at making it easier forregulatory authorities around the world to share information quickly.
Harness Racing NSW integrity chief Reid Sanders hasplayed a big role in its development and HRA chief executive Andrew Kelly willonce again present it to the International Trotting Association as chair of itsmeeting in Chicago this week.
"The second day of the meeting is focused onintegrity. Most people have seen IRIIS and want to be a part of it," Kellysaid. "It has been running successfully in test mode for some time and wego live on July 1."
Sanders has been in contact with thoroughbred chiefstewards about the system and the World Anti-Doping Agency has shown someinterest in it.
It played a role in HRNSW leading the nation in thecobalt investigation. Sanders and his team have already outed two trainers forthe use of racing's latest designer drug and have stood down anotherhalf-dozen.
Cobalt works like Erythropoietin in that it needsto build up over time but a dose is usually given within 24 hours of racing tohave best effect, as it is quickly out of a horse's system.
"We have a threshold level and we believe ourwork has had a big effect on the use of cobalt in our sport," Sanderssaid. "In September last year, our intelligence was that it was widelyused in equine athletes.
"Our focus has shifted to something else, nowwe have a rule in place, which appears to be working."
Meanwhile, Kelly said the export of Australiantrotting to France had a landmark day last weekend. The two races fromMenangle, including the NSW Oaks, were beamed into France at lunchtime onSaturday and they out-held (money-wise the Elitloppet meeting in Sweden.

Finally a postive to come out of all this. Looks like both codes of racing can finally put aside egos, petty differences and work together for the benefit of both codes.Should have happen years ago, but better late than never. I can't understand why all 3 codes of racing are not working together state wide and australia wide. Surely all 3 codes need to come under the one brand of racing, to realise the benefits of working together on matters of Integrity, promotion and to pool all our resources together to benefit everyone

[Messenger]

Welcome Jeff but you need to look down the page. There is a thread on Cobalt that has had about 19,000 views. We have all done it - a beginners mistake. Cheers

[Lucky Camilla"s Lovechild]

Here we go again! So you want an open discussion on cobalt, but post that slanderous garbage. You can probably knock this troll quickly on the head TeeCee.

[Messenger]

Oops - I did not open the link, lucky you are on the ball Leigh

[Lucky Camilla"s Lovechild]

Night shift Kev!

[trish]

http://www.harness.org.au/news-article.cfm?news_id=24108

[Mister JayKO]

From a punting point of view, publishing of that data has certainly helped me - similar to how it has helped the horses.

[trish]

http://www.harness.org.au/news-article.cfm?news_id=24118

[djgood]

They keep coming Trish ,
Just wondering if they did develop a test for Products that work similar to EPO such as aranesp ?

[kung fu man]

At least 8 more to go ,good riddens!

[Plunge Punter]

I have searched high and low through the AHRC rule book and HRV local rule amendments and I can not find a rule that bans cobalt chloride or defines the measurable threshold. HRV are saying they have got a positive swab for cobalt, I cannot see how HRV can charge a trainer for using cobalt if there is no rule or threshold against it. Im wondering how HRV can charge a trainer, under what rule can they charge them for using cobalt?

[trish]

I have searched high and low through the AHRC rule book and HRV local rule amendments and I can not find a rule that bans cobalt chloride or defines the measurable threshold. HRV are saying they have got a positive swab for cobalt, I cannot see how HRV can charge a trainer for using cobalt if there is no rule or threshold against it. Im wondering how HRV can charge a trainer, under what rule can they charge them for using cobalt?


Hi Steve, If RV have set a threshold you would think HRV would have done the same. I can not find anything either but someone will let you know.
http://www.racenet.com.au/news/99252/Victoria-introduces-threshold-limit-for-Cobalt-use

[Plunge Punter]

You would think HRV would have a threshold, my experience in harness racing tells me to assume nothing!

[trish]

http://www.harness.org.au/news-article.cfm?news_id=24317


Congratulations Barbara.
You've got your hands full in SA, but your doing a great job , hopefully you will breath some life back into Harness Racing down there.
GO GIRLFRIEND!

[trish]

http://www.harness.org.au/news-article.cfm?news_id=24318

[Race For Fun]

Are you satisfied with 2 years Trish? Seems a good starting point to me. Those with previous form might not agree.

[trish]

Are you satisfied with 2 years Trish? Seems a good starting point to me. Those with previous form might not agree.

Hi Toni . I think that's really positive , but I would love to see anyones second offence with such drugs their last

[trish]

Just a question. And you can ALL answer.....With regard to no particular reading , level or offence . At what level should the stewards notify the RSPCA that a cruelty offence may have been committed?

[Race For Fun]

Not sure but if harness racing for any space in newspapers they would already know. Is the level that affects racing the same level that is a cruelty issue?

[cityboy]

yeehaa yipee lets get rid of all the drug cheats and cheer the stewards for cleaning the industry up. by the way they are going we will be left with a bunch of losing trainers and punters that go to a pub on afternoon or evening having a bet . who the hell wants to back a bunch of whinging losing trainers or a bunch of trolls jealous on others success. they risk life and limb to get the success. the trots are the red hots. the good old saying goes if ya cant beat em join em. why would i want to feed losing trainers? or harbour them for that matter? they keep the industry running 1. product , 2. winners for the punters, 3. returns for the owners, 4. a good image for outsiders looking in.

for christ sake look at it from a punters perspective they want to back winners and not people they havent heard of that rarely get winners, let alone they safety issues to all the whingers that are bagging all the trainers and industry. lets face the facts whingers dont have a go or are not good enough and want the competition gone so they can take over. it doesnt work like that. horses are expensive to keep in training & and returns with losing trainers , well thats a no brainer - why should people spend their hard earned on losers? losers should just go and find another hobby, and it will be cheaper for the people that spend money on horses for losers to waste. p.s - if i still owned horses id want my horses running places and not winning so they didnt get up in grades, so it would be a pleasure for cheats to keep winning so my horses racing life would be preserved.

[trish]

I don't think Harness gets much newspaper attention, but I did read somewhere that it is harmful and can kill horses in some circumstances. I'm not sure at what level this would occur. IMO its nasty stuff. But so is Meth, so is EPO, so is electrocution & the same question could be asked. I wonder if any case has ever been forwarded to the RSPCA before ?

[trish]

yeehaa yipee lets get rid of all the drug cheats and cheer the stewards for cleaning the industry up. by the way they are going we will be left with a bunch of losing trainers and punters that go to a pub on afternoon or evening having a bet . who the hell wants to back a bunch of whinging losing trainers or a bunch of trolls jealous on others success. they risk life and limb to get the success. the trots are the red hots. the good old saying goes if ya cant beat em join em. why would i want to feed losing trainers? or harbour them for that matter? they keep the industry running 1. product , 2. winners for the punters, 3. returns for the owners, 4. a good image for outsiders looking in.

for christ sake look at it from a punters perspective they want to back winners and not people they havent heard of that rarely get winners, let alone they safety issues to all the whingers that are bagging all the trainers and industry. lets face the facts whingers dont have a go or are not good enough and want the competition gone so they can take over. it doesnt work like that. horses are expensive to keep in training & and returns with losing trainers , well thats a no brainer - why should people spend their hard earned on losers? losers should just go and find another hobby, and it will be cheaper for the people that spend money on horses for losers to waste. p.s - if i still owned horses id want my horses running places and not winning so they didnt get up in grades, so it would be a pleasure for cheats to keep winning so my horses racing life would be preserved.



Gee Dougie . If you take the cheating out you still get winners , and winners in every race . Fact is that form may even stand up . So are you saying you don't mind trainers being cruel ?

[cityboy]

people take epo for most of their lives to keep healthy ,as for meth, i wouldnt think trainers would give their horses more than one dose before it races (once a week). iv seen people take meth most days for years i suppose you guys should be giving them some sort of attention. i so i wouldn't think its all that abusive compared to what has gone on in the past. all the trainers are doing is raising hemoglobin levels for them to have more endurance.

[trish]

people take epo for most of their lives to keep healthy ,as for meth, i wouldnt think trainers would give their horses more than one dose before it races (once a week). iv seen people take meth most days for years i suppose you guys should be giving them some sort of attention. i so i wouldn't think its all that abusive compared to what has gone on in the past. all the trainers are doing is raising hemoglobin levels for them to have more endurance.

For starters Dougie , people who take EPO have depleted bloods levels and are not healthy . Giving it to a healthy , normal body is dangerous . No ifs no buts .
Meth doesn't do anything for haemoglobin levels but it does kill people every year , Is that ok is it ?

[cityboy]

not saying epo is cruelty, people that give horses meth are just butcher trainers, though punters want to see trainers regularly getting winners , if these trainers where outed you will be left with a bunch that share the winners round and opens up other forms of `race fixing` or `honestly bad drives from time to time . if they where smart you wouldnt need drugs to fix a race just trust from the happy family that would be left. = a new bunch to whinge about

[Race For Fun]

Wow Doug. Is it too hard to pick winners without backing horses that have been given a boost. Wow

[cityboy]

sorry im not in the know of any race fixing that goes on, and yes it is hard to back winners without trying to pick who the drug cheats are, so much so im at a loss. NOW THE QUESTION IS WHAT WOULD BE THE RESPONSE?

[cityboy]

why dont we have a tipping competition and try to prove a point? or should i give up betting on the trots. honestly the only whingers would be the bookmakers losing their money on winning punters or the tab fixed odds.

[aussiebreno]

George,

If you do land a job as a foreman will you take it onto yourself to drug the horses up? Will you knock back jobs at honest stables? I wouldn't have thought someone with A grade trainers aspirations should be advocating cheating.

[cityboy]

Ther are lots of ways to fix a race without giving a horse drugs, depends on what extreme the `fixers` would go to

[cityboy]

George,

If you do land a job as a foreman will you take it onto yourself to drug the horses up? Will you knock back jobs at honest stables? I wouldn't have thought someone with A grade trainers aspirations should be advocating cheating.
MY ARGUMENT IS NOT ABOUT `DRUGGING` IN PARTICULAR BUT `CHEATS` I FOR ONE AS ABOVE MENTIONED IF I WAS AN OWNER I WOULDNT MIND RUNNING PLACINGS TO CHEATS AS IT WOULD PRESERVE THE HORSES PRIZEMONEY EARNINGS (EXCEPT FOR 2 & 3YO) IN THOSE CASES ON MOST CIRCUMSTANCES YOU WOULD NEED A EXCEPTION HORSE ANYWAY. I PERSONALLY WOULDNT DRUG MY HORSES BECAUSE OF THE SEVERE PENALTIES IN PLACE THOUGH I UNDERSTAND IF OTHER TRAINERS DID. THOUGH NOT TALKING MYSELF UP THOUGH IVE SEEN A LOT OF GOOD TRAINERS AND A LOT OF BAD TRAINERS, AND THERES NOT MUCH PROFIT TO BE MADE ITS JUST THE SPORT I WAS COMPETITIVE AT. I HAVE BEEN TO SEVERAL OUTSIDE JOBS AND I CANT ESCAPE THE b%$#T THAT GOES ON TURNING FULLTIME TO CASUAL JOBS, WHINGING SO OTHERS CAN GET THE SHIFTS ETC - ITS NEVER ENDING.

[cityboy]

George,

If you do land a job as a foreman will you take it onto yourself to drug the horses up? Will you knock back jobs at honest stables? I wouldn't have thought someone with A grade trainers aspirations should be advocating cheating. - i preferbly wouldnt like a job with a dishonest stable as sooner or later i wouldn't have that job, though preferably i would like to find a trainer or person with a property who may be struggling & i could take the hands on position of preparing the horses to race so they can concentrate on obtaining horses or breeding /relaxing etc. i dont wish to be constantly ridiculed and lose sleep over something thats not leisurely or im comftorable with. you could give me thousands of dollars a week but i would be getting up at 4am 7 days a week and not stopping till after dark and somecases into the wee hours of morning.

[Greg Hando]

yeehaa yipee lets get rid of all the drug cheats and cheer the stewards for cleaning the industry up. by the way they are going we will be left with a bunch of losing trainers and punters that go to a pub on afternoon or evening having a bet . who the hell wants to back a bunch of whinging losing trainers or a bunch of trolls jealous on others success. they risk life and limb to get the success. the trots are the red hots. the good old saying goes if ya cant beat em join em. why would i want to feed losing trainers? or harbour them for that matter? they keep the industry running 1. product , 2. winners for the punters, 3. returns for the owners, 4. a good image for outsiders looking in.

for christ sake look at it from a punters perspective they want to back winners and not people they havent heard of that rarely get winners, let alone they safety issues to all the whingers that are bagging all the trainers and industry. lets face the facts whingers dont have a go or are not good enough and want the competition gone so they can take over. it doesnt work like that. horses are expensive to keep in training & and returns with losing trainers , well thats a no brainer - why should people spend their hard earned on losers? losers should just go and find another hobby, and it will be cheaper for the people that spend money on horses for losers to waste. p.s - if i still owned horses id want my horses running places and not winning so they didnt get up in grades, so it would be a pleasure for cheats to keep winning so my horses racing life would be preserved.
These losers as you say keep the game going and we get rid of the supposed good trainers with pos swabs then it evens up the playing field and those co called losers will win races perhaps you should be the one leaving the game instead of having a go at the battlers that keep our game afloat.

[cityboy]

good suggestion, as for leaving the game yes i left the game in 2010 and been doing it on and off since year 2000, just looking expressions of interest on what sort of work is out there, my findings are there isnt any money for trainers to be paying staff unless you a massive stable then they would work the c$%^&& out of you 6-7 days a week for the minimum wage so i havent been persuaded to make a return. as for trainers being left after all the (cheaters) being outed , i dont know hwre the horses are going to come from as as far as the owners i know wouldnt support other trainers but would just give the game away. the only possibility would be breeders having no option but to send their horses to trainers on deals. its to strengthening the industry its weakening. remember the days of going to the trots to follow the money a get a tip, or someone buying a horse a getting a thrill out of winning? now its more of a prizemoney sport and people arnt prepared to risk money , its too precious to invest in whats left.

[Messenger]

good suggestion, as for leaving the game yes i left the game in 2010 and been doing it on and off since year 2000, just looking expressions of interest on what sort of work is out there, my findings are there isnt any money for trainers to be paying staff unless you a massive stable then they would work the c$%^&& out of you 6-7 days a week for the minimum wage so i havent been persuaded to make a return. as for trainers being left after all the (cheaters) being outed , i dont know hwre the horses are going to come from as as far as the owners i know wouldnt support other trainers but would just give the game away. the only possibility would be breeders having no option but to send their horses to trainers on deals. its to strengthening the industry its weakening. remember the days of going to the trots to follow the money a get a tip, or someone buying a horse a getting a thrill out of winning? now its more of a prizemoney sport and people arnt prepared to risk money , its too precious to invest in whats left.

I am not sure you are putting enough thought into some of these post Dougie.
Do you think the emboldened part has changed?!

I understand that there may be less people prepared to take the risk of buying a horse but what does "its too precious to invest in whats left" mean?

[trish]

http://www.harnesslink.com/USA/Indiana-and-New-York-new-cobalt-rules

Good read.
Any one know how much 25 parts per billion (ppb) is??

[Danno]

http://www.harnesslink.com/USA/Indiana-and-New-York-new-cobalt-rules

Good read.
Any one know how much 25 parts per billion (ppb) is??

Not sure if the ppb bit is right trish, the current level in NSW is 200mg/litre which is 200 ppm, which would be equivalent to 200,000 ppb?

something not right there,

cheers,
Dan

[trish]

Not sure if the ppb bit is right trish, the current level in NSW is 200mg/litre which is 200 ppm, which would be equivalent to 200,000 ppb?

something not right there,

cheers,
Dan

I just copied it from the article .....The threshold level will be 25 parts per billion (ppb).
I wouldn't have a clue Dan but thanks for answering.
Cheers,
Trish

[Greg Hando]

25 ppb is 0.025 ppm

[kung fu man]

Hopefully we get the same max level here sooner rather then later, im predicting a fair few horses may go backwards when we do. By backwards i mean back to thier original ability!

[teecee]

http://www.harnesslink.com/USA/Indiana-and-New-York-new-cobalt-rules

Good read.
Any one know how much 25 parts per billion (ppb) is??


http://www.rapidtables.com/convert/number/ppm-to-ppb.htm


http://www.endmemo.com/sconvert/mg_lppb.php

[teecee]

http://www.ethicalagents.co.nz/EA%20Newsletters/February-2014.pdf

[Race For Fun]

http://www.smh.com.au/sport/horseracing/harness-racing-trainers-neil-day-and-dean-mcdowell-challenge-rulings-court-20140928-10n73z.html

[Messenger]

http://www.smh.com.au/sport/horseracing/harness-racing-trainers-neil-day-and-dean-mcdowell-challenge-rulings-court-20140928-10n73z.html
They even make a harness racing story mostly about the gallops!

[Race For Fun]

They even make a harness racing story mostly about the gallops!

Yes true and the trots get the big drug heading not the gallops, but I bet there are a few trainers eagerly awaiting the outcome of this case.

[strong persuader]

So here is a little whinge from me. The Dean McDowell and Neil Day case began on Monday. It was scheduled for 3 days, meaning it finished on Wednesday. Any mention of the outcome by any of the authorities? Not a bloody whimper! And they wonder why the industry runs on rumour and innuendo!

[Messenger]

So here is a little whinge from me. The Dean McDowell and Neil Day case began on Monday. It was scheduled for 3 days, meaning it finished on Wednesday. Any mention of the outcome by any of the authorities? Not a bloody whimper! And they wonder why the industry runs on rumour and innuendo!
Phil, the following link makes it sound like it is not being heard until this Monday

http://www.smh.com.au/sport/horseracing/harness-racing-trainers-neil-day-and-dean-mcdowell-challenge-rulings-court-20140928-10n73z.html

[Danno]

Phil, the following link makes it sound like it is not being heard until this Monday

http://www.smh.com.au/sport/horseracing/harness-racing-trainers-neil-day-and-dean-mcdowell-challenge-rulings-court-20140928-10n73z.html

The way it reads to me Kev is as Phil stated, I have no truck in the deal but I assumed it was being commenced this Monday passed ( 29/09/14)

[cyclone george]

Read on the USA web site during the weak(I don't know how to post it) that after
research and testing many horses they are recommended that the level be set at 70.

[Messenger]

Phil, the following link makes it sound like it is not being heard until this Monday

http://www.smh.com.au/sport/horseracing/harness-racing-trainers-neil-day-and-dean-mcdowell-challenge-rulings-court-20140928-10n73z.html
Thanks Danno
Apologies Phil
I was looking at todays date on the Fairfax banner at the top of the page
Under the title it says Sept 28
so yes Phil we should have heard

ps Greg did warn me in another thread that I may be reading old Fairfax publications ;)

[trish]

http://www.caselaw.nsw.gov.au/action/pjudg?jgmtid=173075


The matter is listed for hearing on 29 September with an estimate of five days;

[strong persuader]

Thanks Trish, much appreciated. So it finished today. Though one rumour already circulating around these parts is that it got thrown out on the first day :)

[barney]

Just wondering what has happened to them.Havent had horses nominated for awhile now and havent seen Col around.I know they were due to go to court re Cobalt chloride but cant find any details anywhere.
Do any of you guys know whats happening as he is a nice bloke.

[barney]

Answering my own question lost the court case and now will have to front the stewards re cobalt chloride.The national body have agreed on a standard reading so will be in effect nationwide About time.

[trish]

Hi Brian.
In my opinion I believe the threshold is WAY TO HIGH as I think it only encourages people to use it and I think it should be given the same scrutiny as steroids in that the level should never be exceeded in the horses life. Horses should able to be tested 24/7 for anything.
One question I have is , " are horses tested upon their arrival into the retention barn ?" & if not they bloody well should be.
maybe you can answer that Adam..................thanks.

[Danno]

http://www.harness.org.au/news-article.cfm?news_id=24659

No surprises from my perspective, not happy seeing people rubbed out but happy to see measures to maintain integrity successfully defended,

[Triple V]

The World is a funny place. I trust that the ironic undertones of the defence was not lost on those assembled.

[Race For Fun]

Credit where credit is due. HRNSW must be given a huge pat on the back of the work done to win this court case. If they had lost who knows where trotting would have ended up.

[Danno]

Credit where credit is due. HRNSW must be given a huge pat on the back of the work done to win this court case. If they had lost who knows where trotting would have ended up.

Not just Harness Toni, would most likely have had huge ramifications for the Gallops and just about every other sport that is trying to implement control measures.

[Race For Fun]

http://www.harnesslink.com/International/HRNSW-Media-Release---DAY---MCDOWELL-LOSE-SUPREME-COURT-ACTION

http://www.caselaw.nsw.gov.au/action/PJUDG?jgmtid=174661

This is from the Harnesslink web site.

I haven't read the entire Supreme Court finding and some will most likely go over my head but I don't understand how anyone would have thought challenging HRNSW's right to implement local rules would fly.