Shepparton Gold Cup

[Richard prior]

A great drive by Luke McCarthy to win on The Gold Ace last night. I really thought this horse might have lacked a bit of guts when it came down to a fight, but he put that to rest against one of the all time toughest horses we have ever seen in Smoken Up. Another great run by Old Trigger and he just never ceases to amaze, Luke attacked at the exact right time and at first it seemed like suicide to take Trigger on in this fashion as when it comes down to a dog fight, Trigger wins 9 out of 10 times. Pretty disappointed with Restrepo who appeared to have a good camp on them and appeared to be bolting.

[Smoken]

Amazing race to watch. Great win by TGA, but what can we say about Mighty Trigger? Just unbelievable!!! Trigger is nearly double TGA age.. Out of this world!! And he was from
30m handicap.
It will be a very sad day when he retires, but the memories will be cherished forever!
Hope he has a 2 week freshen up :)

[aussiebreno]

I wonder if its a deliberate tactic (or maybe even before McCarthy had him, I don't follow NZ closely) to run that third quarter quick. Done the same at Cranbourne. If deliberate tactic seems to work a treat.

[Messenger]

On top of that Brendan, LM may have noticed what brought Trigger undone at Horsham and so did the same. I thought TGA was going to hold that head adv all the way down the str but thought Trigger put nose back in fr at one stage - amazing animal but maybe to expected when he is built like Mr Universe (even if he is 11yo!)

[Richard prior]

You beat me to the punch there Kev, Luke done a similar thing to Smoken Up last year with Excel Stride and as you mentioned, A few of the drivers seem to be adopting this tactic now against Trigger. I guess you could say it takes the stream out of the swoopers as well as they still finish off but can't make up the distance.

[Smoken]

Very good observation Kevin. They know Trigger has lost a bit of his high cruising speed, apart from Menangle, and where he loses that most is around the bends. The younger horses have the young fresh legs to give them that advantage, which makes it more difficult for the Champ to come back and win. Restrepo had every chance. BOB capitulated after the best run, & I hope he comes better after a spell. ICT was not bad but never was going to win. Clearly the best runs were Trigger and Tga.

[Richard prior]

Very good track at Shepparton and it appeared that Trigger had no issues on the bends.

[Smoken]

Top track @ Shepparton, just going on what Lance said a few months ago, regarding Trigger. Lance could have gone again a bit quicker in the last 400 metres, but I am sure he is looking after the Champ for the bigger races.
The Gold Ace was deemed to start unsafely, so that means no Hunter Cup for him...
His only chance is to bypass the Ballarat Cup, & try run in the Pure Steel and doesn't make even 1 little mistake!

[Maorisidol]

The Gold Ace has now definitely gone to a higher level under the McCarthys! Previous to this preparation there's no way he could have done what he did at Cranbourne and in Shepp Cup, he was a bit gutless in my opinion in last 2 years, however different over a mile if leading...
He loves SS races and in the Hunter Cup will b very hard to beat.
I'm Corzin Terror same, loves SS and depending on his draw in Hunter, will b dangerous.
Hopefully Trigger is in same race and doesn't get a too harsh handicap.
Restrepo got close from 1/1, HFNK, thought he might have won tho.
Bitobliss crap.

[Maorisidol]

Top track @ Shepparton, just going on what Lance said a few months ago, regarding Trigger. Lance could have gone again a bit quicker in the last 400 metres, but I am sure he is looking after the Champ for the bigger races.
The Gold Ace was deemed to start unsafely, so that means no Hunter Cup for him...
His only chance is to bypass the Ballarat Cup, & try run in the Pure Steel and doesn't make even 1 little mistake!

Yeah wow McC's will go straight to Pure Steel I reckon

[Toohard]

Yeah wow McC's will go straight to Pure Steel I reckon

Stewards comment said CODS so assume he was already ODS before last night. Only stand last 12 months. So at moment not eligible Hunter Cup. Going away in Pure Steel gets him into Hunter Cup (last night race made him exempt any ballot). But he still be ODS for Hunter Cup? Going away once won't get him back in draw if has poor record from stand? Maybe Ballarat Cup better option?

Had horse once that was put ODS after 1 failed attempt. 2 trials and 1 race to get back in draw believe back then. He didn't gallop out. Just stood there. Well it was a 'standing' start race! Horse just misread form guide...thought was a 'standing still' race.

[Richard prior]

Hahahahaha, Good one Paul

[The Escape Club]

Top track @ Shepparton, just going on what Lance said a few months ago, regarding Trigger. Lance could have gone again a bit quicker in the last 400 metres, but I am sure he is looking after the Champ for the bigger races.
The Gold Ace was deemed to start unsafely, so that means no Hunter Cup for him...
His only chance is to bypass the Ballarat Cup, & try run in the Pure Steel and doesn't make even 1 little mistake!


The highlighted doesn't make sense to me. Firstly, how do you know he could've gone quicker? Secondly, if he won. he's guaranteed a Hunter Cup start. To me, looking after the horse is winning and getting the guarantee and as a consequence being able to tailor the lead up with no pressure to do anything in particular beforehand.


The fact that SU is 11 is neither here nor there. Like a footballer, if he's out on the park then he's good to go against all comers.

[Smoken]

I meant that, Lance should have stoked him up earlier, & I am sure Trigger could have done that.. Same thing happened in the Horsham cup.
As for your opinion regarding his age, I totally disagree. It's incoherent what you have just stated for common sense logical reasons. Only freaks of nature do what Trigger does, and even then it still has to take it's toll on the ageing body!
It's like you saying, the best of the best young boxers, going against the best of the best grandpa boxers...
Can you see my point of view?
P.s I am confident Trigger is already a good thing to make it to the Hunter Cup...
Maybe I am wrong, but I doubt it very much!

[p plater]

Anyone notice Lance's whip style down the staight, using left hand.

Could this have been that TGA hung in badly around the 400 when Luke grabbed hold of him from his charge forward, stewards indicate he Hung In, it also appears lances gig hits a couple of pegs around that area with the gig bobbing.

Maybe Lance had SU on one rein to get back on line and with the pressure on he didn't have time to change whip hands

[Smoken]

Agree with everything you just stated Bailey! When the race was in real time, I was thinking WTF is Lance doing, then after watching replay, I concur with everything you wrote.
Good news is, Lance reported to Ballarat Courier, that Trigger pulled up Enormous, and is a 80-90% chance of running in the Ballarat cup :) TGA can run in the Ballarat cup, if he choses to bypass the Hunter Cup, which somehow logic tells me he will risk him in the pure steel. That's his only chance.

[The Escape Club]

I meant that, Lance should have stoked him up earlier, & I am sure Trigger could have done that.. Same thing happened in the Horsham cup.
As for your opinion regarding his age, I totally disagree. It's incoherent what you have just stated for common sense logical reasons. Only freaks of nature do what Trigger does, and even then it still has to take it's toll on the ageing body!
It's like you saying, the best of the best young boxers, going against the best of the best grandpa boxers...
Can you see my point of view?
P.s I am confident Trigger is already a good thing to make it to the Hunter Cup...
Maybe I am wrong, but I doubt it very much!


No I don't see that particular point of view and it's a silly analogy. Mike Tyson was winning world heavyweight championships at 20/21 beating the best who were all older, George Foreman won a world heavyweight championship at around 50 beating all comers who were of course all younger.


If you're competing in an open class competition there are no age concessions.


You're probably right in that he's a good thing to be in the Hunter Cup, but you should never assume. If, as you say, he could have gone faster then why not and just remove any doubt? You don't have to rely on some arbitrary decision from someone else then.

[Smoken]

Silly to you it might be, but not to myself :)
And who was Foreman beating? They may have been younger, but were they high class fighters, with speed/strength/stamina? Try this analogy.. Tyson in his prime fighting an old Ali, & Ali whooping him or just losing on unanimous point decision.. I believe he could have gone quicker earlier, he simply didn't. Why? Neither you or I will truly ever know. We can merely share our opinions. Doesn't make you wrong or vice versa. A very good reason could be, Lance didn't want to bust him right out? He knew he had done enough to make it to the Hunter cup? Hunter Cup worth a lot more $ than the Shep cup? All very plausible reasoning...
Btw, you are assuming that Trigger couldn't have gone quicker, so by that logic, it's illogical in itself. I guess your only proof is, that he didn't.. Unless I am 'Assuming' that you are "assuming" :p
That's no objective truth.
The odds so far for Trigger to make it in the Hunter Cup are very very good.
Can't say the same thing for TGA unfortunately. It's ironic that he won and most highly probably gonzo for the Hunter, unless he runs in the Pure Steel, & "assuming" he steps as clean as a whistle.

[Smoken]

Btw, if HRV decide to ok TGA for whatever reason, they should scrap all there rules, as it would clearly be based on discretion.
I wonder how Lance would react, if that was to become reality... I wouldn't blame the guy!

[The Escape Club]

Btw, if HRV decide to ok TGA for whatever reason, they should scrap all there rules, as it would clearly be based on discretion.
I wonder how Lance would react, if that was to become reality... I wouldn't blame the guy!


Which will they give more weight to in the decision do you think? The exemption from the ballot that The Gold Ace has earnt by winning the Shepp Cup or the requirement that the horse must have been qualified to race from the stand?

[Smoken]

I personally would like to see the Gold Ace run, BUT.. Rules are rules, so if they bend rules when they feel like, or for a particular person or horse, then it is clearly unfair why they wouldn't do the same for others. Let's not forget that TGA is considered and unruly standing start horse, in NZ, the last 12 months anyway..
So in saying that, they should change the rules for next years Hunter Cup, & TGA should run in the Pure Steel.

HRV
RULE
In every year since 2007, it has been a condition of the AG Hunter Cup that ‘A horse must have contested and began safely in a minimum of one standing start race in the 12 months prior.’

[broncobrad]

Both horses have already met the conditions and are both certain starters surely Smoken. The Gold Ace has won the Shep Cup. He began safely, he galloped AFTER the start. SU has contested the Shep Cup and began safely, his brilliant form will ensure he starts.


Conditions for Hunter Cup from HRV http://www.harness.org.au/programme-search-results.cfm?penalty=All&class=&sex=&start=SS&club=3804%3B10177194&gait=PACERS&trials=No&month=Feb-2014&state=vic&hdgait=EITHER&submit=Submit


This is the reason SU was overlooked last year http://www.harness.org.au/news-article.cfm?news_id=19814


I cannot see what the debate is about!!!????

[Smoken]

I am happy that TGA is allowed to run on a personal level, but seriously... How does the HRV clearly state he is a non runner yesterday, then today decide to interpret the "rules" differently?
Did they see the replay wrong yesterday? Under the rules, TGA didn't begin safely, and that happened while at the beginning. Did the steward simply follow the rules that were stated?
Now it all depends what we perceive as beginning.. Is it the first second? The first few seconds until horses find there positions? Do HRV know the meaning of there rules/policies/procedures, or is it open to flexibility on personal discretion?
I for one know more than a few people that are not happy with the decision, based on principle alone.
I know the reason Trigger didn't go through last year, but why not see common sense and let him run since it was only 2 months over? You will Say rules are rules, and that's fine, but the same applies here.
Mick Guerin thinks TGA start wasn't "too bad" but too bad is still not good enough for the so called rules. Lance would be ***** off!!!
They should have changed it next year, as it looks pretty bad and unprofessional, & it clearly shows to me, that they just changed the rule, because they are the authority that can. SUX!

[aussiebreno]

What is everyones problem? It is great news for trainers of 2yo trotters. They will no longer need to teach their horses to get away cleanly and safely. Also great news for those who need to hold the tape and qualify them. They won't need to hang around at the trials for Take 2 and Take 3, just say the first attempt 'wasn't too bad".

[broncobrad]

I was unaware that HRV had said yesterday he is a non runner yesterday, but clearly have reviewed that decision (correctly), he only galloped when the horse in front of him inconvenienced him. Correct call...don't often see justice, just stupid by the book rulings!


And have only just read this now Smoken which puts the whole matter to bed.


http://www.harness.org.au/news-article.cfm?news_id=22518


That drive by McCarthy would have to be one of the best I have ever seen getting TGA home the other night...the only difference between the two horses.

[Smoken]

And I also thought these were the RULES regarding standing starts...

A horse must not delay the start through intractability. It must leave the barrier at its correct gait and then negotiate the first 300 metres without losing gait or rhythm and complete the trial/race

I would say that's black and white.
Surely they don't make decisions on personal preferences.....

Since TGA began safely, I use that word very loosely, then no ODS for him.. Lance should have been better buddies with John Anderson, or not so outspoken... Damn!

[broncobrad]

Do you think an injustice (sic) has occurred or not?


Has the horse fulfilled the conditions of entry for the Hunter Cup or not?

[Smoken]

Going by there rules/policies, there is no way he could have. The hrv rules clearly state that for itself.
How can TGA be ODS when he began "safely", or will they change that clause as well?

[broncobrad]

I think you will still be debating this well after they have crossed the line in the Hunter Cup. Obviously you are not comfortable with the review or the ruling that they have come up with, I am. So is HRV, so are the connections of TGA (I would imagine). I would think that Lance would be pretty philosophical about it.

[Smoken]

I agree that I am not happy about it for the reasons of integrity, something that Harness racing seriously lacks.
The rules have been posted for everyone to see for themselves. It really does not matter about what the consensus is, it's about the facts of the rules, which I repeat have not been adhered to.
I bet that Lance is pissed as **** to be honest!
It truly seems that HRV bend the rules when they want to, & for who they want to.
That's a good assumption to make or at least plausible.
I would also think, when HRV made there initial decision regarding TGA, I am sure they looked at the replay through different angles etc etc..
Lame excuse that they now come up with! ICT was not the cause of TGA galloping!
HRV are trying to rewrite/replay reality...

[The Escape Club]

So, in your opinion, the standing start requirements take precedence over the automatic qualification for winning the Shepp Cup?


I'm with Brad on this one. He stepped fine then was inconvenienced by I'm Corzin Terror who was galloping.

[Smoken]

Seriously guys, ICT didn't do squat for TGA to gallop. In fact, ICT slightly shifted and galloped compared to the galloping action of TGA. Again, you don't think the HRV Stewards made the original decision carefully before reaching the conclusion that he was a non runner? HRV simply bent the rules, nothing more! So to answer your question, of course it takes precedence. He keeps the win but not the start for the Hunter cup.
So why the ODS? Put him back in the draw.

[aussiebreno]

So, in your opinion, the standing start requirements take precedence over the automatic qualification for winning the Shepp Cup?


I'm with Brad on this one. He stepped fine then was inconvenienced by I'm Corzin Terror who was galloping.the auto entry is for a horse who wins a lead up race but may not otherwise have gained a start, eg Wartime Sweetheart probably not in best field nommed for Vic Cup but got in based on winning lead up. So it gives Gold Ace an exception from ballot (not that he needed it) but he still needs to qualify for the ballot before he can be excepted from it. To qualify for ballot would involve starting the race properly.

[Toohard]

Both horses have already met the conditions and are both certain starters surely Smoken. The Gold Ace has won the Shep Cup. He began safely, he galloped AFTER the start. SU has contested the Shep Cup and began safely, his brilliant form will ensure he starts.


Conditions for Hunter Cup from HRV http://www.harness.org.au/programme-search-results.cfm?penalty=All&class=&sex=&start=SS&club=3804%3B10177194&gait=PACERS&trials=No&month=Feb-2014&state=vic&hdgait=EITHER&submit=Submit


This is the reason SU was overlooked last year http://www.harness.org.au/news-article.cfm?news_id=19814


I cannot see what the debate is about!!!????


Reading that link to last years decision..

Read this bit

"This condition was recommended by an Industry Consultative Group (the Strategic Planning Advisory Group consisting of representatives from Industry Stakeholder Groups) to HRV and was approved by the HRV Board in 2007 following a number of Hunter Cups where horses with little or no standing start experience in the previous 12 months had begun badly in the race and caused severe interference to other runners at the start of the event. "
　
Before Gold Ace galloped at start of Shepparton Cup his previous two stand starts;

13/11/2012 NZ Cup - Galloped first 100m

One before that 2/11/2012. Took out Auckland Reactor at start. Auckland Reactor lost all chance.
Gold Ace finished 2nd. Relegated to 9th due to severe interference caused another runner.


　

[aussiebreno]

http://www.harness.org.au/news-article.cfm?news_id=6610

Have HRV applied the rules as they were intended, to limit the the potential for interference at the start?

The way the Gold Ace started at Shep the potential for interference was definitely there imho.

[Smoken]

Let's not forget that TGA is considered an unruly standing start horse, in NZ, the last 12 months anyway.. One of my earlier posts. He stuffed it up more than once in NZ as Paul mentions, and if you look at the replay very carefully, the reason he galloped is because of the momentum he had going, not ICT. It even seems that Luke did hardly nothing to try get him back pacing, he was galloping quickly and made unfair ground. That is the way i see it, only an opinion.

[Smoken]

Lance's thoughts..
I can only say if smoken up turned his head while trying to miss gallopers he would be out ......no doubt

Rules for one and rules for the others
Wouldn't consider changes last year re hunter cup

I have to agree with Lance 100%

[p plater]

I agree that I am not happy about it for the reasons of integrity, something that Harness racing seriously lacks.
The rules have been posted for everyone to see for themselves. It really does not matter about what the consensus is, it's about the facts of the rules, which I repeat have not been adhered to.
I bet that Lance is pissed as **** to be honest!
It truly seems that HRV bend the rules when they want to, & for who they want to.
That's a good assumption to make or at least plausible.
I would also think, when HRV made there initial decision regarding TGA, I am sure they looked at the replay through different angles etc etc..
Lame excuse that they now come up with! ICT was not the cause of TGA galloping!
HRV are trying to rewrite/replay reality...

There is definately no favours expected from HRV Head Office with regards to Smoken Up, cast you mind back to the past Horse of the Year award comments by the CEO http://www.harnesslink.com/News/CEO-John-Anderson-s-Victoria-viewpoint-102084

[broncobrad]

Why oh why am I continuing to be part of this debate is beyond me...however, if an animal has fulfilled the conditions as required to, what more does the horse have to do? Solemnly swear with hoof on bible that "I will do everything within my power to make sure I do not skip, jump, fart or gallop when the tapes release. If I do step away as required then I will, to avoid any embarrassment to my driver, ensure I drive straight up the back of the horse in front of me, even when it is taking my rightful running. I will do my damnedness not to break into a full stretched gallop if my driver takes the common sense approach of avoiding aforementioned horse"


The horse has got a list of convictions a mile long. The horse didn't write the conditions that had to be fulfilled, HRV did. Take it up with them. THEIR STEWARDS DEEMED THE HORSE GALLOPED AFTER THE START, NOT AT THE START. This isn't a court of inquiry here, its a bunch of opinions being expressed earnestly by forum contributors, nothing more. Going over the same territory doesn't change what has occurred. Anyone here seen the camera angle down the back at the start of the Shep Cup? Doubt it, nor have I? I will take the word of the Chief Steward.


Now when the conditions of the Cup were drawn up back in 2007, the committee was doing the right thing in protecting the interests of other starters...they put the Clauses in it that still apply today. Let them review the conditions AFTER this cup if they deem it needs to be changed, because obviously there are a shitload of people who think it should be.


Smoken, if that is what Lance said so be it, but it wasn't HRVs fault his champ wasn't left out of the cup last year...and I was one that thought he should have been there, but his horse had not met the criteria. Tough potatoes!


Finally horses are not machines, they are not foolproof or bombproof or can offer no guarantees. They surely cannot be penalised for doing something they may or may not do in the future. There is an existing system in place that deals with actualities. Its called "back to the trials" And BTW, can anyone tell me the last time they saw SmokenUp break into a full gallop?

[Smoken]

No one has an issue with any horse Brad. They are not accountable for there actions, people are accountable for there actions for many reasons. That is what separates us from animals. Our morality, ethics etc etc.
It still does not change the fact one bit, that HRV bent the rules, and I agree they can. That doesn't make it right now does it...
Trigger galloped hopelessly @ 2012 Interdominion in Perth.

Geez Paul, top investigative work :)
That is pathetic!!! And they call themselves professionals.. Pfffft!

[Toohard]

http://www.harness.org.au/news-article.cfm?news_id=6610

Have HRV applied the rules as they were intended, to limit the the potential for interference at the start?

The way the Gold Ace started at Shep the potential for interference was definitely there imho.

Which intention brenno? The original intention, last years intention or this years?

Am told Gold Ace not in 2013 NZ Cup coz trainer said horse won't go away.

What about person(s) who misses out on start coz CODS horse allowed to run?

[aussiebreno]

Why oh why am I continuing to be part of this debate is beyond me...however, if an animal has fulfilled the conditions as required to, what more does the horse have to do? Solemnly swear with hoof on bible that "I will do everything within my power to make sure I do not skip, jump, fart or gallop when the tapes release. If I do step away as required then I will, to avoid any embarrassment to my driver, ensure I drive straight up the back of the horse in front of me, even when it is taking my rightful running. I will do my damnedness not to break into a full stretched gallop if my driver takes the common sense approach of avoiding aforementioned horse"


The horse has got a list of convictions a mile long. The horse didn't write the conditions that had to be fulfilled, HRV did. Take it up with them. THEIR STEWARDS DEEMED THE HORSE GALLOPED AFTER THE START, NOT AT THE START. This isn't a court of inquiry here, its a bunch of opinions being expressed earnestly by forum contributors, nothing more. Going over the same territory doesn't change what has occurred. Anyone here seen the camera angle down the back at the start of the Shep Cup? Doubt it, nor have I? I will take the word of the Chief Steward.


Now when the conditions of the Cup were drawn up back in 2007, the committee was doing the right thing in protecting the interests of other starters...they put the Clauses in it that still apply today. Let them review the conditions AFTER this cup if they deem it needs to be changed, because obviously there are a shitload of people who think it should be.


Smoken, if that is what Lance said so be it, but it wasn't HRVs fault his champ wasn't left out of the cup last year...and I was one that thought he should have been there, but his horse had not met the criteria. Tough potatoes!


Finally horses are not machines, they are not foolproof or bombproof or can offer no guarantees. They surely cannot be penalised for doing something they may or may not do in the future. There is an existing system in place that deals with actualities. Its called "back to the trials" And BTW, can anyone tell me the last time they saw SmokenUp break into a full gallop?
Gold Ace CODS. Why? If he started safely no need. If he begun the race properly, then no need for ODS. Luke McCarthy should be questioning this why he is still ODS if he begun properly. I've never ever seen any other horse put out of draw because it got inconvenienced by another. Which one is it????

[Smoken]

It seems that nobody can answer such a simple question Brendan..
Maybe HRV will change the CODS regarding TGA, because they have no other choice without making them look absolutely STUPID & BIASED!!

[broncobrad]

Gold Ace CODS. Why? If he started safely no need. If he begun the race properly, then no need for ODS. Luke McCarthy should be questioning this why he is still ODS if he begun properly. I've never ever seen any other horse put out of draw because it got inconvenienced by another. Which one is it????




I am sorry Brendan, if you are asking me for the answer, I cannot help you. On this score I can offer you no reasonable explanation.

[The Escape Club]

I was unaware that HRV had said yesterday he is a non runner yesterday, but clearly have reviewed that decision (correctly), he only galloped when the horse in front of him inconvenienced him. Correct call...don't often see justice, just stupid by the book rulings!


And have only just read this now Smoken which puts the whole matter to bed.




http://www.harness.org.au/news-article.cfm?news_id=22518


That drive by McCarthy would have to be one of the best I have ever seen getting TGA home the other night...the only difference between the two horses.


As a follow up to the above, here's the steward's report that is essentially what was in the article.


Im Corzin Terror NZ began badly and shifted outwards soon after the start and as a consequence The Gold Ace NZ was briefly inconvenienced and after originally placing this horse outside the standing start draw stewards were satisfied that due to the inconvenience caused the horse did not gallop of its own accord however will remain outside the standing start draw. Im Corzin Terror NZ was subsequently placed outside the draw.

[Smoken]

Why should TGA remain ods if it has done nothing wrong?????? That is just insane!!! Ohh, they truly know that it did gallop due to its own accord, otherwise it will be not ods! Unbelievable! It picked up speed to quickly for his own good, hence breaking, not ICT fault. This just proves that HRV do as they please, when they please. Shonky *****

Nothing else to say really. I will stop here :p

[p plater]

Heard this happened tonight at the trials...it appears Im Corzin Terror was in the 3rd trial a stand. Stepped away, went half a lap and pulled up.
Now are the stewards going to allow this as a genuine trial as the Vic rules clearly state a horse must finish the trial without breaking gait.
Are they trying to get the ODS removed

[Toohard]

I'll stop here too Smoken!

Watched replay son recorded on TV. Watched few times. Slow mo even.

No head on shot but if that horse galloped because of I'm Corzin Terror I'll eat me hat.

I'm Corzin Terror moves up the track before Gold Ace gets near him but is straightened by time Gold Ace gets there. Gold Ace is positioned up the track at start. There's heaps of room for Gold Ace to get through. Gold Ace does not slow up when reaches I'm Corzin Terror. Not like had to grab hold and go sideways to avoid I'm Corzin Terror.

Gallops as passes I'm Corzin Terror and continues to make ground galloping whilst the other ones galloping are restrained to get back into a pace. Then starts pacing.


Gold Ace. Galloped at last 3 stands. Once knocking another horse out of the race and being subsequently relegated to last. Passes conditions of rule.

Smoken Up hadn't had stand for 14 months last year. So hadn't had stand for 26 months before Shepparton Cup. Began perfectly. Last year doesn't pass conditions of rule.

As people said last year... "The point of the rule is ?????"

[Njcstables]

First of all, after watching replay at sheparton, tga appears to step well and pace cleanly for about 50m before galloping trying to avoid ict. He does appear to gallop for a long way however before getting back on gait. Personally I'm satisfied with the process of the review, the rules state that a trainer can ask for a review if a horse is put ods or cods. if the stewards actually spoke to the trainers/drivers after the race, before making their ruling, then this would never have been an issue.

On the issue of whether or not tga should still be cods, there are a number of reasons this can still be the case. Firstly to get back in the draw you need to have satisfactorily began clean at two consecutive trials/races. Secondly the trainer needs to sign a form prior to the start of the race indicating that he wishes to have his/her horse put back in the draw should it begin safely. Perhaps Luke is happy for the horse to be ods because he can stand up the track out of harms way and that gives tga his best chance to begin safely. None of us know what the actual circumstances are.

Finally if that is true about ict at trials tonight then it shouldn't be considered as one of his two starts to get back in draw because the rules state that you must complete the trial.

Ps. Smoken up is a freak, not the best horse just a great one and I hope he goes to hunter cup and I hope hrv finally get their handicapping of the race right cos it hasn't been for a long time.

[Toohard]

Ps. Smoken up is a freak, not the best horse just a great one and I hope he goes to hunter cup and I hope hrv finally get their handicapping of the race right cos it hasn't been for a long time.

Gday
No handicaps in Hunter Cup this year. All start from the front (RBD)

[aussiebreno]

http://media.harness.org.au/vic/BNC12121307.mp4

For benefit of Broncobrad. Watch Giacomo in the yellow from four one the front line. He went just as far if not further than Gold Ace before going sketchy for a couple strides. He was made ODS. Hope that clears up the at start/after start for you.

[Smoken]

I lied, I can't stop :p
Everything about this is just plain wrong! It's doing my head in that some people can't see this!
Scrap the rule book, and replace it with a book of Circus Clowns!
I have seen that replay over 40 times, and my opinion is exactly what I stated!
I am glad Paul saw what I saw for the last 40 times :)
Just saw that replay brenno posted. Gee **** wiz!!

[p plater]

From the Victorian rule book.

8.2.2
In a standing start
-
not delay the start through intractability and leave the
barrier at the correct gait then complete the trial in a competitive manner
without losing gait or rhythm.

[broncobrad]

http://media.harness.org.au/vic/BNC12121307.mp4

For benefit of Broncobrad. Watch Giacomo in the yellow from four one the front line. He went just as far if not further than Gold Ace before going sketchy for a couple strides. He was made ODS. Hope that clears up the at start/after start for you.


Brendan, I have already said I can offer no reason why the horse is still ODS, please ask HRV or Luke. They will have the answer, not me.


Your example to clear up the at start/after start only muddies the waters. Giacomo skipped of his own accord, he didn't have a horse parked in front to cause the driver to take evasive action as TGA had to. The stewards report that he 'broke after start' but as you say he was made ODS (as were about 150 horses in that race).


It is a matter of opinion/conjecture as to why TGA galloped, it is plain as day that Giacomo broke without another horse interfering with him.


Smoken, you are a big fibber lol

[aussiebreno]

Why oh why am I continuing to be part of this debate is beyond me...however, if an animal has fulfilled the conditions as required to, what more does the horse have to do? Solemnly swear with hoof on bible that "I will do everything within my power to make sure I do not skip, jump, fart or gallop when the tapes release. If I do step away as required then I will, to avoid any embarrassment to my driver, ensure I drive straight up the back of the horse in front of me, even when it is taking my rightful running. I will do my damnedness not to break into a full stretched gallop if my driver takes the common sense approach of avoiding aforementioned horse"


The horse has got a list of convictions a mile long. The horse didn't write the conditions that had to be fulfilled, HRV did. Take it up with them. THEIR STEWARDS DEEMED THE HORSE GALLOPED AFTER THE START, NOT AT THE START. This isn't a court of inquiry here, its a bunch of opinions being expressed earnestly by forum contributors, nothing more. Going over the same territory doesn't change what has occurred. Anyone here seen the camera angle down the back at the start of the Shep Cup? Doubt it, nor have I? I will take the word of the Chief Steward.


Now when the conditions of the Cup were drawn up back in 2007, the committee was doing the right thing in protecting the interests of other starters...they put the Clauses in it that still apply today. Let them review the conditions AFTER this cup if they deem it needs to be changed, because obviously there are a shitload of people who think it should be.


Smoken, if that is what Lance said so be it, but it wasn't HRVs fault his champ wasn't left out of the cup last year...and I was one that thought he should have been there, but his horse had not met the criteria. Tough potatoes!


Finally horses are not machines, they are not foolproof or bombproof or can offer no guarantees. They surely cannot be penalised for doing something they may or may not do in the future. There is an existing system in place that deals with actualities. Its called "back to the trials" And BTW, can anyone tell me the last time they saw SmokenUp break into a full gallop?



Brendan, I have already said I can offer no reason why the horse is still ODS, please ask HRV or Luke. They will have the answer, not me.


Your example to clear up the at start/after start only muddies the waters. Giacomo skipped of his own accord, he didn't have a horse parked in front to cause the driver to take evasive action as TGA had to. The stewards report that he 'broke after start' but as you say he was made ODS (as were about 150 horses in that race).


It is a matter of opinion/conjecture as to why TGA galloped, it is plain as day that Giacomo broke without another horse interfering with him.


Smoken, you are a big fibber lol
Forgetting The Gold Ace for a second, the only point I was trying to clarify was what is at the start / after the start for you. 50m down the track is still considered part of the start (even if BAS stands for Broke after start) as that is considered part of the start. If they break in home straight you will notice they only say broke...not Broke after start even though technically it is.

[The Escape Club]

I lied, I can't stop :p
Everything about this is just plain wrong! It's doing my head in that some people can't see this!
Scrap the rule book, and replace it with a book of Circus Clowns!
I have seen that replay over 40 times, and my opinion is exactly what I stated!
I am glad Paul saw what I saw for the last 40 times :)
Just saw that replay brenno posted. Gee **** wiz!!


How many of those 40 times was it the head on vision that you've watched?

[Smoken]

I can't lie and say I have seen head on, but I don't need to lie, as it's clear as day to see that as Paul said, Luke had an option to what to do, and if you were to look at the replay as many times as I have, if you're honest, you will admit that the interference was extremely minimal if any at all caused to TGA!
He simply galloped out because he started to quickly, and as I said, his galloping was at the same speed if not quicker, & Luke did absolutely nothing to try bring him back into a pace!
That ground he made up was unfair, look at it again and judge for yourself.

I agree Brad, I am a fibber, but not on this occasion :)