I Smell a Rat

[p plater]

I made comment on another thread that I was told " Im Corzin Terror" who is ODS after the Shep Cup was at the trials on Tuesday.

At the trials he stepped away and went half a lap and pulled out.

The rules clearly state the trial must be completed. Now in the Pure Steel and nominated for the Hunter Cup.

Now heres the rat. All the replays of the trials are on the Victorian Site for the 20th January and all available to see except one, trial 3 which replays in about 3 seconds at super fast forward.

A bit hard to confirm what I was told, can anyone verify my mail please.

[aussiebreno]

I made comment on another thread that I was told " Im Corzin Terror" who is ODS after the Shep Cup was at the trials on Tuesday.

At the trials he stepped away and went half a lap and pulled out.

The rules clearly state the trial must be completed. Now in the Pure Steel and nominated for the Hunter Cup.

Now heres the rat. All the replays of the trials are on the Victorian Site for the 20th January and all available to see except one, trial 3 which replays in about 3 seconds at super fast forward.

A bit hard to confirm what I was told, can anyone verify my mail please.
https://www.youtube.com/user/HarnessRacingVic

Can clearly see him dropping out with lap and half to go even though it is in fast forward.

Original clip uploaded to youtube went for 3mins18, one assumes it has since been changed.

Two swiftys this week? Not good enough if so.

Well picked up p plater.

[Richard prior]

That's a disgrace!!

[Toohard]

Im Corzin Terror already passed that Hunter Cup 'rule' thats sometimes applied and sometimes not. He went away in Maryborough Cup 3rd December 2013. Doesn't matter if he gallops out every time now. Still in Hunter Cup under that 'rule'. Might still be out of draw but still eligible.

At next stand "checked at start and broke" but not put out of draw. ODS now coz of Shep Cup. Still allowed in Pure Steel but out of draw.

Maybe just doing stand practice at trials

[Smoken]

Would he have to go to the trials just to practice his standing start?
Is that a requirement? Or does the horse have to start safely and complete the trial as stated?
These rules are all over the place, & it does seem that certain rules apply to some but not for others.
Hmmmm....

[p plater]

Paul, what's your take if the trial is counted and he steps away in the Pure Steel, then has the ODS removed for the Hunter Cup.
I still smell a rat here.

[aussiebreno]

Im Corzin Terror already passed that Hunter Cup 'rule' thats sometimes applied and sometimes not. He went away in Maryborough Cup 3rd December 2013. Doesn't matter if he gallops out every time now. Still in Hunter Cup under that 'rule'. Might still be out of draw but still eligible.

At next stand "checked at start and broke" but not put out of draw. ODS now coz of Shep Cup. Still allowed in Pure Steel but out of draw.

Maybe just doing stand practice at trialsGood point. Rule probably needs changing, I think someone stated in another thread can go away safely once and you qualified even if other 9 times galloped out.

[Toohard]

Good point. Rule probably needs changing, I think someone stated in another thread can go away safely once and you qualified even if other 9 times galloped out.
They obviously not worried about horses with a history of bad stand manners as they let Gold Ace in even though BAS. So why have rule in first place? I can fluke going away in stand Sunday after Hunter Cup. Gallop out at next 5 and take half the field out. Still qualify.

[Toohard]

Paul, what's your take if the trial is counted and he steps away in the Pure Steel, then has the ODS removed for the Hunter Cup.
I still smell a rat here.

Nah don't think that can happen Bailey. Could be wrong but wouldn't have thought so. After last Saturday night maybe it can? "The trial must be completed" for the trial to count. But its only the start interested in for ODS? Theyd be hard pressed not counting it as a safe start after what classified as safe start last week.

[Toohard]

Would he have to go to the trials just to practice his standing start?
Is that a requirement? Or does the horse have to start safely and complete the trial as stated?
These rules are all over the place, & it does seem that certain rules apply to some but not for others.
Hmmmm....

No wouldn't have to go. Wouldn't be requirement. Good opportunity to practice though. Away from home on a racetrack. Just thought what might be doing.

[Njcstables]

I have no problem with him pulling out of trial after the start if they just wanted the practice. I can't imagine they would have wanted a full trial hit out 2 days after shep. As long as it doesn't count towards the horse getting back in draw. If the horse goes away in pure steel and fronts up as back in draw for hunter cup then there'll be hell to pay.

[arlington]

Fairly sure a precedent was established a few years back when one of Tim Butt's(?) needed to get back into the draw before the Hunter Cup. Granted permission to start the trial and complete a short distance 200 - 400 metres to the satisfaction of the stewards.

[p plater]

Fairly sure a precedent was established a few years back when one of Tim Butt's(?) needed to get back into the draw before the Hunter Cup. Granted permission to start the trial and complete a short distance 200 - 400 metres to the satisfaction of the stewards.

Surely can't be correct, would "Johnny Noname" get the same leg up. Rules are rules. I can't find a sub clause which allows this.

Why would proven Grand Circuit be excluded from the same benefit, if true. Lets face it, most Grand Circuit horses get handicapped out of standing start races in Aust because of the lack of them and the preference to mobile racing. No such problem in NZ

Mobile racing is preferred because of the limited time allowed by the TAB......must run on time.

[arlington]

Surely can't be correct, would "Johnny Noname" get the same leg up. Rules are rules. I can't find a sub clause which allows this.

Why would proven Grand Circuit be excluded from the same benefit, if true. Lets face it, most Grand Circuit horses get handicapped out of standing start races in Aust because of the lack of them and the preference to mobile racing. No such problem in NZ

Mobile racing is preferred because of the limited time allowed by the TAB......must run on time.


In regards to the rules, 12. RE-INCLUSION INTO BARRIER DRAW In particular 12.1 stating two consecutive occasions, race or trial & 12.3, noting the reference to the first 300 metres. Quite possibly this rule was in place so an apology to the reference to T Butt might be in order. Whether it be "Johnny" or other, I can see merits in the granting of some leniency in a horse not being required to complete the entire trial in the scenario being discussed. Am positive the stewards/authorities would be more than happy to afford Johnny the same grace leading into the Hunter Cup. Would it not be good for the sport?

[p plater]

In regards to the rules, 12. RE-INCLUSION INTO BARRIER DRAW In particular 12.1 stating two consecutive occasions, race or trial & 12.3, noting the reference to the first 300 metres. Quite possibly this rule was in place so an apology to the reference to T Butt might be in order. Whether it be "Johnny" or other, I can see merits in the granting of some leniency in a horse not being required to complete the entire trial in the scenario being discussed. Am positive the stewards/authorities would be more than happy to afford Johnny the same grace leading into the Hunter Cup. Would it not be good for the sport?

Wayne, 12.3 contains a bit more........must complete trial
12.2
A trainer seeking to have his/her horse re
-
included into the barrier draw must
notify Stewards on the day of the race meeting or trials fixture prior to the
horse’s racing engagement, as well as completing and signing the Horse Bar Record
form which is located with the Stewards.
12.3
To be deemed a satisfactory start:
-
12.3.1
Mobile Start
–
A horse must score up and be in its correct barrier position and
within one m
etre of the barrier from the candy pole to the starting point, then
negotiate the first 300 metres without losing gait or rhythm and complete the
trial/race.
Standing Start
–
A horse must not delay the start through intractability. It
must leave the barri
er at its correct gait and then negotiate the first 300 metres
without losing gait or rhythm and complete the trial/race.

[Greg Hando]

Still ODS on harnessweb trial results have him down as running 5th not FTF.

[arlington]

Wayne, 12.3 contains a bit more........must complete trial
12.2
A trainer seeking to have his/her horse re
-
included into the barrier draw must
notify Stewards on the day of the race meeting or trials fixture prior to the
horse’s racing engagement, as well as completing and signing the Horse Bar Record
form which is located with the Stewards.
12.3
To be deemed a satisfactory start:
-
12.3.1
Mobile Start
–
A horse must score up and be in its correct barrier position and
within one m
etre of the barrier from the candy pole to the starting point, then
negotiate the first 300 metres without losing gait or rhythm and complete the
trial/race.
Standing Start
–
A horse must not delay the start through intractability. It
must leave the barri
er at its correct gait and then negotiate the first 300 metres
without losing gait or rhythm and complete the trial/race.


G'day Bailey,


No intention of misleading, merely emphasising the first 300 metres. Am still sure a precedent had been established. Irrespective of who it was, I'm sure Johnny would be well within his/her rights to approach the stewards citing such. As for whether every peculiarity of every rule can be displayed in the rule book, not sure.

[arlington]

Still ODS on harnessweb trial results have him down as running 5th not FTF.


Quite possibly my posts are irrelevant, he only needed to go away cleanly for the first 300 metres then jog around for the rest of the journey, over the finish line. He wasn't qualifying to race, needing to trial in a competitive manner. He steps cleanly tonight, back in the draw I imagine.

[p plater]

Quite possibly my posts are irrelevant, he only needed to go away cleanly for the first 300 metres then jog around for the rest of the journey, over the finish line. He wasn't qualifying to race, needing to trial in a competitive manner. He steps cleanly tonight, back in the draw I imagine.

Notice Thats Mister Ali also in trial No 3 and the Pure Steel tonight. He is not entered for the Hunter Cup but had he been and stepped tonight he would have the ODS removed as he completed the trial.

You would think a trainer of John Justice's standing would know you only had to do 300m and go home.

[Richard prior]

Thats Mister Ali hadn't raced since 11th of January and maybe he needed a solid hit out before tonight's race.

[arlington]

Thats Mister Ali hadn't raced since 11th of January and maybe he needed a solid hit out before tonight's race.

Would say that would be the case Richard, horses for courses, an astute training decision on J Justice's part.

[p plater]

Now we will never know, as he galloped out and is CODS.

[arlington]

Quite possibly if the trial wasn't accepted he might have gone to RODS after Saturday night.