How to destroy a horses chances

[Wayneo]

I have always wondered why members of this forum never really complain or comment on drives that show how incompetent some drivers really are. Let's start with Bathurst race 1 tonight. Stormfortheboys. Kevin Rivett. I don't know how long it takes for the replays to go onto the website but when you get a chance to look at the race can you give your opinion on this bloke and can someone tell me if Kevin taught Lauren how to drive.

[Wayneo]

Kevin drives the 2nd fav in race 2. Let's see how he goes here

[Wayneo]

Kevin had barrier 1 and Amanda Turnbull was on the $2.4 fav from barrier 4 and she goes strate to the front. Kevin must of thought that getting 3 back pegs in the 7 horse field with the fav leading was a smart move. Has to stay on the fence the entire race and coasts home for 3rd not beaten very far for 2nd by the horse that was driven the way he should have driven his.

[Wayneo]

Danno I stated in my 1st post that I don't work in the harness industry and I have never owned a horse in the harness industry. I gamble most days on harness and gallops horses. I'm just offering a opinion from someone who watches a lot of races and sees things that most people with half a brain would see and laugh at. I have a lot of experience with thoroughbred racing. Before you laugh at me and say something stupid about the sports being if fervent and bla bla bla why don't you watch and comment on ome of the drives I post about.

[Wayneo]

Different not if fervent

[DRUIDRACING]

are we talking about race 1 at Bathurst as Kevin Rivett was on the 6 and it was caught 3 wide not three pegs..generally kevin drives them well. I know this because I backed the 1 stopped in the straight like 30/1.

[DRUIDRACING]

Bathurst is not the place to wager at the moment as one stable is very dominant and the markets are a false reflection on the horses actual chances. Very tough to win over that stable at the moment.

[brent_L]

Not sure how the 6 horse could have been driven better in the first race sorry Wayne......he showed GS, was caught 5 wide early, balanced up and moved to the chair. I didn't see another option I'm sorry?? In the 2nd race I can understand the question being asked as to why he didn't push the horse out a little more, but can also cop to the fact that there were higher graded stablemates that were going to work for each other (which is the norm) and pressure him early on his outside so why burn unnecessary petrol.

[Wayneo]

Brent don't you think he could of made a decision or had a plan and stuck to it. The only reason that he ended up outside the leader was because of the trouble that occurred and if that had not have happened he would have been caught 3 wide the entire. I reckon it looked like he didn't have plan. He challenged early which in hindsight was never going to happen. I think after realising that was no go he decided to come back. I think he than realised that was no go so he decided to try and go forward again and ended up in the death nearly 1 lap after the start which is where he tried to be at the start. In my opinion he was no hope going forward than back than forward so why not either go back strate away or keep pressing on for the death from the start. He was on the 2nd fav so other drivers would deffinitly have given up the death to him.

[Messenger]

Funny : Messenger, pedestal, then - get it right mate.

[brent_L]

Manners hey gents!

Can't agree sorry Wayne but it's just one guys opinion. Firstly let me say that I have never driven......personally I'd prefer a horse that I've backed to ease out of an early speed burn when the lead position is futile and look for a place to slot in, or in turn await a slackening of the pace then press forward (which is pretty much what happened in this particular race....28.7 first qtr followed by a 32). Looking at the form of #6 and seeing that of its last 5 starts it has put in two ordinary efforts when driven off the pace as opposed to 3 nice efforts when on top of the speed so I understand the drivers inclination to try and take up a forward spot tonight.
Does sound like u r talking thru your kick?? Apologies if u aren't.
Cheers

[Wayneo]

Brent layed the winner and the horse that we are talking about and the winner winning was a better result for me. I think I only lost about $20 or $30 on that race which is ok for me. I started this topic to talk about some wild drives that you see and how you see some big fat blokes bouncing up and down and taking off on horses and giving them no hope. The next one that I see I will put on here and see what you think. If I have bet on something that I think has been burnt I don't sulk or complain. A lot of my betting is laying in the run on the city tracks and I would love it if betting in the run was available on some of the country tracks. Cheers Brent.

[Wayneo]

2014-03-12
18:08 AUS Bath (AUS) 12th Mar / 18:08 R1 1730m Pace M / 6. Stormfortheboys
Lay 3.1012.00Won 12.0057.38https://au.site.sports.betfair.com/exchange-web/resources/betfair/standard/common/content/images/common/spacer.gif
2014-03-12
18:08 AUS Bath (AUS) 12th Mar / 18:08 R1 1730m Pace M / 4. Dominique Prieur
Lay 2.5614.00Lost(21.84) 45.38

[Wayneo]

https://au.site.sports.betfair.com/exchange-web/resources/betfair/standard/common/content/images/common/spacer.gif
2014-03-12
18:38 AUS Bath (AUS) 12th Mar / 18:37 To Be Placed
Comm Charged 5.59% On Net winnings of AUD22 ---(1.23) 52.50https://au.site.sports.betfair.com/exchange-web/resources/betfair/standard/common/content/images/common/spacer.gif
2014-03-12
18:38 AUS Bath (AUS) 12th Mar / 18:37 To Be Placed / 1. All Scar
Lay 2.2122.00Won 22.0053.73

[brent_L]

Good to see another punter aboard Wayne. It's a really informative forum with a lot of well educated industry participants but I feel there could be more in the way of betting material. Keep an eye out on the 'SELECTIONS' page....I'm gonna start tipping in there and hopefully others will join in and maybe we can all make a buck or two. Brendan also occasionally does a form write-up for the bigger races which are insightful.

Bad drives/driving is unfortunately one of the negatives that harness fans have to put up with unfortunately. Although it also occurs (rides in this case of course) in the gallops, it is much more discernible in harness due to the more organised racing patterns IMO.
I feel some slack must also be cut to those who are in the game as a hobby....I for one don't expect the same skill from them as I do the McCarthys, Sugars, Alfords etc. nor should anyone else IMO and my betting trends follow accordingly. I've said it to my mates time and time again, 'if you're gonna bitch about a ride/drive stop betting the horse and start betting the jockey/driver'.
Cheers

[Wayneo]

Globe Derby race 2. Have a look at Island Dreamer. That would have to be as unlucky as you can get. The driver Ricky Frearson was deffinitaly trying but just no luck

[Wayneo]

Shepparton race 7. Have a look at David Aikens 2 runners. David drives the $15 winner and Alford drives the fav. Look how quiet David sits on the leader and the winner down the strate.

[Wayneo]

You have to watch this one. Gloucester race 4 Hokonui Ben. Thankyou Aldo Cortopassi I layed you for the win and the place and you could not of done anything else to get me a collect.

[brent_L]

Globe Derby race 2. Have a look at Island Dreamer. That would have to be as unlucky as you can get. The driver Ricky Frearson was deffinitaly trying but just no luck FREARSON WON THE RACE....NOT SURE WHAT YOURE ON ABOUT (no horse named ID)

Shepparton race 7. Have a look at David Aikens 2 runners. David drives the $15 winner and Alford drives the fav. Look how quiet David sits on the leader and the winner down the strate. AIKEN HAD 4 RUNNERS & THE WINNER HAD WON 5 OF ITS LAST 6......ITS NOT A CRIME TO WIN WHILST SITTING 'QUIET', WATCH G LANG!

You have to watch this one. Gloucester race 4 Hokonui Ben. Thankyou Aldo Cortopassi I layed you for the win and the place and you could not of done anything else to get me a collect. WHAT DID HE DO WRONG?? IMO, NOTHING!

U SMOKIN SOMETHING WAYNEO??

[Wayneo]

Brent at Globe Derby race 2 I meant the 2nd horse Katesaroyal driven by D Hill.

[Wayneo]

Brent if Hokonuis drivers plan was to just go out and show no initiative go forward than back and then wander up 3 deep with no cover and just sit there and than flop up and down and get nosed out of 3rd than it was a perfect drive.

[Chariots]

Wayneeo Cortopassi endeavoured to work the breeze but Halls who previously trained Hokonui Ben decided to leave him posted and he had no option but to go back. Then he had to try to get into the race rather than stay back last and rated up three wide. Interesting that you have not cited Hall's drive on Passion Stride which could have sat on Hokonui Ben yet elected to retain the breeze and run unplaced. You are starting to embarrass yourself with you obvious lack of knowledge and understanding of form and driving tactics.

[brent_L]

Wayneeo Cortopassi endeavoured to work the breeze but Halls who previously trained Hokonui Ben decided to leave him posted and he had no option but to go back. Then he had to try to get into the race rather than stay back last and rated up three wide. Interesting that you have not cited Hall's drive on Passion Stride which could have sat on Hokonui Ben yet elected to retain the breeze and run unplaced. You are starting to embarrass yourself with you obvious lack of knowledge and understanding of form and driving tactics.
Agree regarding the tactics with Passion Stride. It's WA form in no way suggested it be driven that way at all (stewards did manage to come up with a QDT). I dare say most form guys would have had Ben death seating outside the 1 with Jnr sweet seating. Do hope it wasn't a tactic used out of pettiness......life too short for that nonsense, especially with the stable that they've got.
Anyhow, on review of the race, hats off to HBen. The only time there was any sort of speed in the race he was 3 deep (both early & late) and beaten only 3m. He definitely hasn't regressed with the change of stables.

[Wayneo]

Wayneeo Cortopassi endeavoured to work the breeze but Halls who previously trained Hokonui Ben decided to leave him posted and he had no option but to go back. Then he had to try to get into the race rather than stay back last and rated up three wide. Interesting that you have not cited Hall's drive on Passion Stride which could have sat on Hokonui Ben yet elected to retain the breeze and run unplaced. You are starting to embarrass yourself with you obvious lack of knowledge and understanding of form and driving tactics.



Chariots look where the 3 horses that drew outside of Hokonui were after 50 metres and then look where Hokonui is and then where he ends up and have a think about where Hokonui could have been if there was a bit of quick thinking involved. Some simple advice also to drivers is if you ever drive a horse that was previously trained by another trainer and driver and that trainer and driver won a lot of races with the horse you are driving and the previous trainer and driver have a runner in the same race as you are about to compete in and they have drawn inside you than there could be a slight chance that they might just try and hold you out and make you work harder than you might have to so you could probably help your horses chances by being awake to this and having a plan B.

[Wayneo]

2014-03-14
22:20 AUS GlPk (AUS) 14th Mar / 22:20 R4 2130m Pace M / 4. Hokonui Ben
Lay 2.6043.00Won 43.00337.01

[Wayneo]

2014-03-14
22:21 AUS GlPk (AUS) 14th Mar / 22:20 To Be Placed / 4. Hokonui Ben
Lay 1.28100.00Won 100.00299.47

[HarnessFan]

Wayneo, as the owner of Hokonui Ben, I would like to remind you that the normal racing pattern is to go forward in these circumstances. You seem to allude to the fact that we should of known there would be some sort of pay-back.


Red salute was supported heavily on Betfair by the few people in the know.


We tried plan A to go forward and reverted quickly to plan B, the stewards queried Aldo in terms of why we didn't persevere with Plan A. The response was that it was unlikely that junior would accept a nice trail.


Can you imagine the scrutiny we would of received had we gone back at the start on the assumption that we knew Passion Stride would be driven in a way that compromised the horses chance?


All I can say is a lot of people knew, I suspect Emilio didn't.


Its a great shame that the harness world knows when incidents like these should be predictable.

[Wayneo]

Harness fan you should tell Aldo to tell the stewards that they are embarrassing themselves with their obvious lack of knowledge and understanding of driving tactics and form for asking any questions about his drive.

[Chariots]

Harness fan, support for Red Salute was hardly surprising as it has an excellent record when drawn to lead. The only surprising feature of the race was Passion Stride electing to breeze rather than have the last drop on the two favourites.
Also thought Matthew White lacked urgency in getting a run on Sensational Gabby but he does tend to drive that way most of the time.

[Wayneo]

Have a look at Melton race 5 tonight. Zedalite Rodney Petroff. That race is an example of a driver that looks as though he done the form and speed of the race and came up with a plan and stuck to it.He was prepared to make a decision nd throw it all on the line. Anyone that backed that horse would not of complained if he got beat because it was so obvious that Petroff was trying his best

[Messenger]

I will let you in on a little secret Wayne - the main reason why horses get beat is that they are not good enough on the day which includes having a draw that they cannot overcome

PS you sure are reading a lot into Petroff's get the lead drive lol

[Messenger]

Have a look at Melton race 5 tonight. Zedalite Rodney Petroff. That race is an example of a driver that looks as though he done the form and speed of the race and came up with a plan and stuck to it.He was prepared to make a decision nd throw it all on the line. Anyone that backed that horse would not of complained if he got beat because it was so obvious that Petroff was trying his best

I wasn't sure you understood why most horses get beat ;) as you don't seem convinced that drivers are nearly always trying their best.

[Wayneo]

Races 1 and 2 at Wagga tonight. Who is the worst? Tony Peacock as a trainer or Mark Pitt as a driver. If they are not laying their horses they should be.

[doncht]

Has this been proven to be working yet? https://imagicon.info/cat/10-3/smile4.png

[HISGEN65]

"How to destroy a horses chances"...there was one at Menangle on Sat night that would surely fall into that category ?

[brent_L]

"How to destroy a horses chances"...there was one at Menangle on Sat night that would surely fall into that category ?
R3???

[Messenger]

http://www.harness.org.au/meeting-results.cfm?mc=BA020914&ms=vic#BAC02091401

Last race at Ballarat tonight
Inquiry Adjourned
Jason Lee could be in a heap of trouble for his drive on 2nd Fav Narra Operative
1x2 approaching bell with only the Fav behind him in a field of 7
He dropped down to be 3 pegs at a track with no sprint lane
You won't be surprised to hear he was HU Held Up
HU could also mean Hung out to dry, if he was told Narra was to be INoperative tonight - NOT good enough

[cisco]

http://www.harness.org.au/meeting-results.cfm?mc=BA020914&ms=vic#BAC02091401

Last race at Ballarat tonight
Inquiry Adjourned
Jason Lee could be in a heap of trouble for his drive on 2nd Fav Narra Operative
1x2 approaching bell with only the Fav behind him in a field of 7
He dropped down to be 3 pegs at a track with no sprint lane
You won't be surprised to hear he was HU Held Up
HU could also mean Hung out to dry, if he was told Narra was to be INoperative tonight - NOT good enough





Not good at all

[Richard prior]

Hang your head in shame Jason Lee!!!

[thepacingman]

Not the best drive you will see but not really a surprise either.
I've always thought Jason Lee is a great example (and not the only one by any means) who is OK when his drive is leader, behind leader or outside leader. But when back in the field and he has to make decisions during the race is found sadly lacking.

[Messenger]

Being the last race and pretty much the last race anywhere for the night if we had access to technology/facilities like RV
(see http://www.theage.com.au/sport/horseracing/victorian-racing-embraces-digital-age-to-ensure-a-level-playing-field-20140822-107a0h.html)
I would love to see all bet payouts over $500 frozen until inquiry completed.
I am not declaring this race to be a betting scandal but in some races where you see such cold driving you have to consider whether they are doing more than saving the horse for another day

[brent_L]

Not a good look I agree but I'll cut him some slack (easy to do I suppose as I didn't bet in the race).....reckon he just outsmarted himself coupled with the fact he didn't have total control due to the horse pulling quite fiercely. Ducked to the pegs when he thought the speed was going to go right on rounding the turn into the straight, that speed didn't really eventuate, the 5 horse dropped the bit outside of him and with his horse 'keen' on the back of the one in front wasn't able to come back out into the running line. Reckon he clearly wanted to come off at about 150m from the winning post. Bad drive: no doubt. Running dead: a bit harsh IMO.

[cisco]

Hi Guys,


I would be interested in your opinions on the drive of Sovereign Faith in race 5 at Menangle on the 23/8/14.

[Messenger]

Not a good look I agree but I'll cut him some slack (easy to do I suppose as I didn't bet in the race).....reckon he just outsmarted himself coupled with the fact he didn't have total control due to the horse pulling quite fiercely. Ducked to the pegs when he thought the speed was going to go right on rounding the turn into the straight, that speed didn't really eventuate, the 5 horse dropped the bit outside of him and with his horse 'keen' on the back of the one in front wasn't able to come back out into the running line. Reckon he clearly wanted to come off at about 150m from the winning post. Bad drive: no doubt. Running dead: a bit harsh IMO.
Totally dead IMO Brent - if he argues that he thought the 1x1 was going to fade and this was an easier way to get around him (only defence IMO) then the stewards call it a really bad drive and give him weaks anyway - may help him improve.
From seeing quite a lot of PM's horse race around here, I have to say that I lean toward the fact that they choose which races they are going for a win. A little harsh maybe but just what I believe.

[HISGEN65]

IMHO this sort of thing,not this particular one but in general,is our sports biggest scurge - anything that is visually seen by the punting public & the public in general has to be in my opinion more damaging to the sport & to the sports ability to capture & contunually capture it's fair share of the punting market place,than anything else.I know a few chaps that lost a wag of money on several suspect performances in heats of series up here & sorry to say they will not punt on harness ever again.Yes we need to attempt to deal with other huge integrity issues for sure but this one needs to carry a lot bigger penalties in my opinion because without TAB turnover we got nothing.

[Richard prior]

Reckon you've hit the nail right on the head James, The industry in driven by the almighty punting dollar and this will certainly dry up if horses aren't driven on their merit. Another thing that I find annoying is how the hell can a driver get a stay for bad driving??? For EG: Continually taking another horses legs out, The appeal process certainly needs to be looked at if an experienced driver has become a serial offender.

[Messenger]

IMHO this sort of thing,not this particular one but in general,is our sports biggest scurge - anything that is visually seen by the punting public & the public in general has to be in my opinion more damaging to the sport & to the sports ability to capture & contunually capture it's fair share of the punting market place,than anything else.I know a few chaps that lost a wag of money on several suspect performances in heats of series up here & sorry to say they will not punt on harness ever again.Yes we need to attempt to deal with other huge integrity issues for sure but this one needs to carry a lot bigger penalties in my opinion because without TAB turnover we got nothing.
Definitely spot on James. As far as heat betting goes - I think the answer might be in making Winning heats more attractive than just qualifying. A possible incentive could be that the connections get to select their barrier for the final according to their placing ie Fastest winner down to last to qualify. Gives them a massive incentive and a massive advantage but why shouldn't they get one - a bit like football ladder leaders getting an advantage in finals

[thepacingman]

if horses aren't driven on their merit.

Don't see that mentioned much any more. I can't remember the last time a driver went down on Rule 147 (failing to allow a horse to run on it's merits). Must be many, many years ago. And they usual penalty they got was 12 months DQ.

Now it's all 149 (reasonable and permissible measures). An easy cop out for the stewards in many ways. But the problem is above them.

The appeals boards have a lot to answer for in that they are the reason penalties are so lenient these days especially in Victoria. In that they hear the appeal and say appeal dismissed but more often than not they will reduce the penalty. That's how they justify their existence.

I can't find it at the moment (i'll keep looking) but there was a HRV appeal on a 149 not so long ago and they reduced it down to 11 days. Ridiculous. But I keep tossing up in my mind whether with the HRV appeals board the reason is ignorance or incompetence.

[teecee]

Hi Guys,


I would be interested in your opinions on the drive of Sovereign Faith in race 5 at Menangle on the 23/8/14.


Asked and answered previously.
Check out the post but no thread line. (I know you already have.!!!

[Maorisidol]

Im Not A Trotter, Race Fav at Terang Trotters race slaughtered, 3 wide most of the race in a 7 horse field. No, i didn't have a dollar on it,. Quite a bad drive the drive before as well when suspended, leave the driving to Brooke, Bob...
http://www.harness.org.au/meeting-results.cfm?mc=TE030914&ms=vic#TEC03091407

[Messenger]

Where does one keep an eye out for the results of an adjourned inquiry - anyone know?
(I hope they don't just pop them on the bottom of another meets Stewards report)

[Race For Fun]

Where does one keep an eye out for the results of an adjourned inquiry - anyone know?
(I hope they don't just pop them on the bottom of another meets Stewards report)

Think they do!

http://www.harness.org.au/stewards-reports-detail.cfm?mc=PE040914&fromstate=nsw

[allanjg]

if your talking about doping or any other misconduct etc. you will find the info that you might be looking for on the harness racing vic. home page--news room---stewards rap...

[Messenger]

if your talking about doping or any other misconduct etc. you will find the info that you might be looking for on the harness racing vic. home page--news room---stewards rap...
Is the Stewards rap only there sometimes Allan? I found news room but no rap - maybe there is no stewards news this week as yet.
I am really wanting to catch the result of the adjourned Narra Operative Inquiry so if anyone spots it please let us know.

[bbd]

Is the Stewards rap only there sometimes Allan? I found news room but no rap - maybe there is no stewards news this week as yet.
I am really wanting to catch the result of the adjourned Narra Operative Inquiry so if anyone spots it please let us know.

What you're looking for Kev, will in the Stewards Reports added to the end of whatever meeting they continue the enquiry at.

[allanjg]

just checked stewards wrap....nothing on narra operative...give me the horses trainer,the offence,and the race meeting and date...their are other avenues.for some reason HRV are very tardy in releasing any results of possitive tests and other offences...

[brent_L]

just checked stewards wrap....nothing on narra operative...give me the horses trainer,the offence,and the race meeting and date...their are other avenues.for some reason HRV are very tardy in releasing any results of possitive tests and other offences...
It was Jason Lee's drive on the above mentioned last Tuesdy that Kev wasn't happy with.......I'm just hoping he wasn't watching the last race at Bendigo last night, he would now be less happy!!

[Messenger]

What you're looking for Kev, will in the Stewards Reports added to the end of whatever meeting they continue the enquiry at.
Thanks Colin - I feared as much - one has to read every Stewards Report

[Messenger]

just checked stewards wrap....nothing on narra operative...give me the horses trainer,the offence,and the race meeting and date...their are other avenues.for some reason HRV are very tardy in releasing any results of possitive tests and other offences...
Thanks Allan - see my post number 37 for this thread in relation to Ballarat on the 2nd of this month

[Messenger]

It was Jason Lee's drive on the above mentioned last Tuesdy that Kev wasn't happy with.......I'm just hoping he wasn't watching the last race at Bendigo last night, he would now be less happy!!
I meant to be on in it next start Brent but down in Melbourne and busy missed it. They sure did not want to be 3 fence this week did they.
Makes you wonder why a horse that can Death and come home in 56.2 to win easily, would leave the 1x1 to go 3f at Ballarat. I hope the stewards ask Jason Lee that Q

[allanjg]

i down loaded the race in question,there is no doubt the kid has brain drains at times...takes me back to the last race of bliss man at melton earlier this year...trainers instructions....get off the fence no matter what...1x1 would be nice but any where back...give as easiest run as possible and wait,wait,till the the last 200 mtrs,he will do the rest.....leaves the 1x1,sits 3wide,mile rate 1-53.1..kills the horse. (smoken ups last race 1-53.9 same distance)