Change of Trainer NON Notification

[Maorisidol]

Whats your thoughts everyone on an "official" notice of some sort in race guides as to the announcement that a particular horse is having its first start under a new trainer?
This can quite often make a significant difference to a horses chances, new or newer training styles, feed, atmosphere of new stable and care taken by staff, etc...
And yes an opposite effect can happen, either way, do you think it would be a good thing?

[aussiebreno]

Whats your thoughts everyone on an "official" notice of some sort in race guides as to the announcement that a particular horse is having its first start under a new trainer?
This can quite often make a significant difference to a horses chances, new or newer training styles, feed, atmosphere of new stable and care taken by staff, etc...
And yes an opposite effect can happen, either way, do you think it would be a good thing?
If ya half serious about reading form or even just following racing you should know. Don't need spoon feeding.

[Messenger]

I am with you Ash, the form tells us who drove the horse of late but not the more important info of who trained it. Not highlighting a change of stable is not spoon feeding, it is an omission that should be corrected. If you follow Brendan's line of thinking they should not tell us anything - hell, why would you want to encourage punters LOL

[aussiebreno]

I am with you Ash, the form tells us who drove the horse of late but not the more important info of who trained it. Not highlighting a change of stable is not spoon feeding, it is an omission that should be corrected. If you follow Brendan's line of thinking they should not tell us anything - hell, why would you want to encourage punters LOL
http://www.harness.org.au/fields.cfm?mc=YU150314

The official fields there list the trainers. If you're doing the form from the paper or a tab sheet you're doing it wrong to start with, and if you someone cant realise a horse has changed trainer are they really going to take the time to be looking at a notification of changed trainers or even gear changes? There are unknown variables like eating up and how the horse worked during the week that are more important and there is no reporting on that.

[Messenger]

I get it Brendan - you are a super punter. While the fields list trainers you do not have the previous starts field list for comparison at your finger tips. The average punter likes the form but I guess you would argue they should stop putting who drove the horse for its previous starts too. You talk about important unkown variables BUT the change of trainer is NOT an unkown variable - it is listed but it gets lost in the wash and I think Ash's point is, that if they list the trainer for each start in the form guide or made a note of a change it wouldn't. Hardly a biggie

[aussiebreno]

I get it Brendan - you are a super punter. While the fields list trainers you do not have the previous starts field list for comparison at your finger tips. The average punter likes the form but I guess you would argue they should stop putting who drove the horse for its previous starts too. You talk about important unkown variables BUT the change of trainer is NOT an unkown variable - it is listed but it gets lost in the wash and I think Ash's point is, that if they list the trainer for each start in the form guide or made a note of a change it wouldn't. Hardly a biggie
Super punter? No. Able to click a mouse yes. Able to recall and process some basic info yes.
http://www.harness.org.au/fields.cfm?mc=YU150314
The results with listed trainers are right at your fingertips.
Do we also need a registrar for change of barrier position? There has to be some kind of edge for those bothered to delve a little deeper. Punting is a battle of intellect and knowledge (and luck), no exam I've ever endured has laid out the answers, those students who chose to study a bit harder done better.
Your drivers argument is moot, trainers barely change, drivers can change from race to race quite regularly.

[arlington]

Whats your thoughts everyone on an "official" notice of some sort in race guides as to the announcement that a particular horse is having its first start under a new trainer?
This can quite often make a significant difference to a horses chances, new or newer training styles, feed, atmosphere of new stable and care taken by staff, etc...
And yes an opposite effect can happen, either way, do you think it would be a good thing?


I think Ash has a point. Just following the form, most times I'll notice a change of stables. More-so, if I do notice a change, that will be significant to my thoughts on the race. Once again, if I do notice, I might delve deeper into trial results. But for me, it's only for interest sake.

The form does list previous barrier positions and drivers and on the subject of gear changes, purely for interest sake, I'd be interested in Brendan's view on all gear changes. Are there some you think are pretty insignificant?
Certainly not denying the astute form student reaping the rewards but IMO some of the gear changes notified aren't as significant as a change of trainer. I guess there's only so much space in the form guide so something might have to give.

[aussiebreno]

I think Ash has a point. Just following the form, most times I'll notice a change of stables. More-so, if I do notice a change, that will be significant to my thoughts on the race. Once again, if I do notice, I might delve deeper into trial results. But for me, it's only for interest sake.

The form does list previous barrier positions and drivers and on the subject of gear changes, purely for interest sake, I'd be interested in Brendan's view on all gear changes. Are there some you think are pretty insignificant?
Certainly not denying the astute form student reaping the rewards but IMO some of the gear changes notified aren't as significant as a change of trainer. I guess there's only so much space in the form guide so something might have to give.
I'm just a punter, not a trainer, I have a vague idea of what gear is for but not fully up to speed. But even if I was fully up to speed, are you able to put a quantifiable amount of improvement on a horse? Ok we've put deafeners in, will that improve the horse a length or two? Will letting the hopeless out improve the horse a length or two? Because the difference between a length and two lengths could be the difference between winning and losing. Gear changes for me are more are moreso a part of saying, ok I got the form wrong on that horse, maybe it was the gear change that improved it.

If you want a change in the way form guides and results are presented I would be pushing for 200m sectionals rather than 400s. If a horse takes 400m to work forward three wide to the death between 1400 and 1000m and first two quarters are 31 and 32 you might say the horse got there easy enough. But the 200m sectionals can tell a different story. They could be 16 15 15 17 or 15 16 17 15. Working forward in 15 and 15 means you worked pretty hard, working forward in 16 and 17 means you got there pretty cheap. Same story last 400m. Horse may appear to be getting home well late, but if last 400 is covered in 13 and 14 well maybe it was other horses stopping, whereas if it getting home in 14 and 13 well that could be a ripper final 200m. Probably wouldn't be as much variance as I've put in my examples, and to some extent you can tell the change of pace watching a video, but the big difference between thoroughbred and harness racing form is the recording of sectional times from a furlong to two furlongs.

[brent_L]

Although it's not a 'biggie' I get where Ash is coming from. It could easily be listed on the 'Horse's Racing Performance' list (and as it's not right in front of u on the formguide it couldn't be regarded as 'spoon-feeding'), it would definitely be a whole lot easier than having to go back and search the results page from horses previous start(s) (as Kevin pointed out).

Whilst on the formguide issue, the harness.org.au really needs to sort their **** out when it comes to how the formguide reads of a horse that crosses the Tasman....it's all over the place, and has been for a long time now.

[brent_L]

If you want a change in the way form guides and results are presented I would be pushing for 200m sectionals rather than 400s. If a horse takes 400m to work forward three wide to the death between 1400 and 1000m and first two quarters are 31 and 32 you might say the horse got there easy enough. But the 200m sectionals can tell a different story. They could be 16 15 15 17 or 15 16 17 15. Working forward in 15 and 15 means you worked pretty hard, working forward in 16 and 17 means you got there pretty cheap. Same story last 400m. Horse may appear to be getting home well late, but if last 400 is covered in 13 and 14 well maybe it was other horses stopping, whereas if it getting home in 14 and 13 well that could be a ripper final 200m. Probably wouldn't be as much variance as I've put in my examples, and to some extent you can tell the change of pace watching a video, but the big difference between thoroughbred and harness racing form is the recording of sectional times from a furlong to two furlongs.
And that's exactly why the 'experts' watch tape.....not read formguides.

Buy the way, big bucks in it for u if u can get me that trackwork/eating-up info.....PLEASE!!

[Toohard]

If you want a change in the way form guides and results are presented I would be pushing for 200m sectionals rather than 400s. If a horse takes 400m to work forward three wide to the death between 1400 and 1000m and first two quarters are 31 and 32 you might say the horse got there easy enough. But the 200m sectionals can tell a different story. They could be 16 15 15 17 or 15 16 17 15. Working forward in 15 and 15 means you worked pretty hard, working forward in 16 and 17 means you got there pretty cheap. Same story last 400m. Horse may appear to be getting home well late, but if last 400 is covered in 13 and 14 well maybe it was other horses stopping, whereas if it getting home in 14 and 13 well that could be a ripper final 200m. Probably wouldn't be as much variance as I've put in my examples, and to some extent you can tell the change of pace watching a video, but the big difference between thoroughbred and harness racing form is the recording of sectional times from a furlong to two furlongs.

YES I agree Breno! Also all of our quarters have got bend in them somewhere (except for Menangle I guess). If got furlong splits heaps better guide eg. 3 wide around a bend in a quick furlong much different to 3 wide in a straight line.

I did hear something about some upcoming changes to to the sectional times a few months back. Don't know if this is what it was it but would definitely handy.

[Maorisidol]

Although it's not a 'biggie' I get where Ash is coming from. It could easily be listed on the 'Horse's Racing Performance' list (and as it's not right in front of u on the formguide it couldn't be regarded as 'spoon-feeding'), it would definitely be a whole lot easier than having to go back and search the results page from horses previous start(s) (as Kevin pointed out).

Whilst on the formguide issue, the harness.org.au really needs to sort their **** out when it comes to how the formguide reads of a horse that crosses the Tasman....it's all over the place, and has been for a long time now.

Thanx Brent, arlington and Messenger.
As you say guys in the Form Guide it lists the trainers name, and the driver of last 5 starts but not even when you click on the horses name and go to its Racing Performance life history does it mention the trainer at any part of its career, and unless you are aussiebrenno astute form guide expert who seemingly knows which stable every horse in Australia is in week by week race by race, sometimes like Arlington said "if" i noticed, if i had time, if i wasn't rushing back to my room like i was last night while attending a conference in San Diego and not in my norm with Sky Racing on the TV and the iPad at hand sitting on my couch in Melbourne, sometimes i might miss something that at other times i may have worked out.
Case in point last night at Shepparton race 4 the $35 winner Sweetasay, i did notice David Miles was driving but somehow missed he was also now the Trainer and it was racing on Miles' home track. This horse has always shown ability and is well bred with a Tennotrump/Maori/Sundon family tree. If i had read a Trainer notification that said "new trainer d miles since 1/3/14" (for example) i would have said to myself, thats significant, i like the horse, has a good barrier, new trainer, there is a $1.20 D Aiken fav tho so at $4.80 a place i'm in for $50! or maybe even 40 a place and 10 a win cos trotters gallop and you just never know what can happen, they are less predictable than pacers, particularly if you do follow the trotters a lot like i do and can get a good feel for some good ones and bad ones who can tend to be erratic.
And as far as a stable change to be maybe not as important as eating up and training good/bad etc, we have trainers in the top 20 across each state and a plethora not in the top 50! So if a horse with some good potential goes from a NON top 50 stable to a top 10 stable, you better take notice cos a top 10 trainer doesn't usually take on "donkeys" that are gonna waste their time, they aren't in it for the hobby, they will mostly take on something they reckon they can improve and make a dollar on.
Hence as Brent and Messenger pointed out it would be a hell of a lot easier than going back to search thru results pages, cos its not even mentioned in the horses racing history where it would actually be clearly seen

[aussiebreno]

and unless you are aussiebrenno astute form guide expert who seemingly knows which stable every horse in Australia is in week by week race by race, sometimes like Arlington said "if" i noticed, if i had time, if i wasn't rushing back to my room like i was last night while attending a conference in San Diego and not in my norm with Sky Racing on the TV and the iPad at hand sitting on my couch in Melbourne, sometimes i might miss something that at other times i may have worked out.
How many stable changes are there though anyway? Of those the majority would be to different states which everybody would notice anyway.
As I said about being even half serious, that isn't doing form in a rush whilst away at conferences.

I still maintain if ya half serious about things you should work it out anyway, and that it still is spoon feeding, but having slept on it I guess it couldn't hurt and it probably is a good idea Ash.

[Maorisidol]

How many stable changes are there though anyway? Of those the majority would be to different states which everybody would notice anyway.
As I said about being even half serious, that isn't doing form in a rush whilst away at conferences.

I still maintain if ya half serious about things you should work it out anyway, and that it still is spoon feeding, but having slept on it I guess it couldn't hurt and it probably is a good idea Ash.

Holy Moses i nearly fell off my balcony of the 15th floor at the Marriott Marquis Marina, Brenno agreed with ME after a good sleep and considers "it couldn't hurt"!!! :p

[Messenger]

How many stable changes are there though anyway? Of those the majority would be to different states which everybody would notice anyway.
As I said about being even half serious, that isn't doing form in a rush whilst away at conferences.

I still maintain if ya half serious about things you should work it out anyway, and that it still is spoon feeding, but having slept on it I guess it couldn't hurt and it probably is a good idea Ash.

Like I said - hardly a biggie. Brenno, you must realize that the industry is all about making it easy for the punter in the hope of increasing turnover. I can relate to your 'edge' concerns as I quit punting seriously decades ago when they made it easy for everyone - replays for starters!

[Messenger]

How about notification of a change of trainers name - am I right in thinking Michelle Manning is now Michelle Wight