Where is Harness Racing Headed?

[Pena]

I notice a trainer has been stood down pending an enquiry.
http://www.harness.org.au/news-article.cfm?news_id=23135
If you watch the races you can see why but I am sure Justin will put up a spirited defence. My biggest issue is if you are running TAB races that have fixed odds on them and people can get on Betfair and lay the horse and the race is only worth $2000 ($1085 to the winner) what do you expect. If a horse wins a TAB race and the owner does not even receive enough to pay one months training fees then the system is bound to be rorted. I think the industry has a whole needs to reassess. I personally think the difference between big races, Metropolitan races and the C and R races is too far. If the interdom was worth $400k I do not think it would make a difference to the coverage but the money would be better distributed through the whole industry. Add this to the fact that there are just to many races. Prizemoney at grass roots levels need to increase or the likelyhood of incidents occurring as above will definitely be reduced. Don't think I am staying stopped as someone will always be looking to rort the system but at the current standard it is a disgrace.

[doncht]

and lay the horse and the race is only worth $2000 ($1085 to the winner) what do you expect.

I think they could have done something better than this though. https://imagicon.info/cat/10-3/smile4.png

[aussiebreno]

Prizemoney level no excuse. Say I have runner $100,000 gp 1. First horse gets $60000. I could lay my horse for $30k. Guaranteed profit $30k win lose or draw. Without knowing facts of this case, 99% of other participants managed to follow the rules at $2000 restricted meetings.

[Pena]

Obviously from your comments you really mean lose, lose or lose.

[Messenger]

Obviously from your comments you really mean lose, lose or lose.
No doubt he does Jack. He also makes a good point about how a bigger staked race could be rorted but I believe that would be more likely a temptation to a trainer or a driver - an owner (esp of a mare or horse) is likely to want the Gp 1 win for 60k or at least 25k for 2nd

[Danno]

Good to see the stewards are keeping a close eye out for this type of activity, I remember a few years ago I was in a low prizemoney race at Wyong in January 1999 with a horse called Travellers Chek and we were subjected to VERY heavy team driving, to the point we got beat with no doubt the best horse in the field, but the shysters didn't get the money either, when, ( as we were pulling up) I laughed at the guy who was driving the horse that was given the task of making sure we had little chance that his mate didn't get the bickies either, he spat the dummy out and called me a "F___en Diego". I still think that is hilarious...very Italian name Gibson.Ha Ha.
The stipes didn't get him that day, but gee I hope they catch up with him!!!!

[aussiebreno]

http://www.harness.org.au/news-article.cfm?news_id=23135

???

[Pena]

Brenno, your reference was to laying the horse so the term win, lose or draw would not apply.
I have to disagree though that it is far less likely to occur in a Group race or a race that cover good prizemoney. I don't disagree that it can still hapen but is far less likely if there a a good paycheck at risk and no risk of disqualification etc. I douby Chris Gleeson would have done what he did if it was the Miracle Mile.

[aussiebreno]

Brenno, your reference was to laying the horse so the term win, lose or draw would not apply.
I have to disagree though that it is far less likely to occur in a Group race or a race that cover good prizemoney. I don't disagree that it can still hapen but is far less likely if there a a good paycheck at risk and no risk of disqualification etc. I douby Chris Gleeson would have done what he did if it was the Miracle Mile.
Your horse wins the race, you win $60K prizemoney less $30K laying.
Your horse draws the race, you win $30K prizemoney less $15K laying
Your horse loses race, you get no prizemoney but win $30K laying.

Calculations and figures may be wrong, but point is you can still win money win lose or draw.

Didn't say this situation was likely to play out, just that because there more money involved here, it would seem low prizemoney shouldn't be used as an excuse for criminals.

[Messenger]

The best return in the above scenario would be coming second Breno LOL. $20k+ prizemoney and $30k laying is nearly as good as winning :D

[Pena]

Just one little thing you forgot Brenno is "THE PRICE" Unless your horse is $1.04 then your numbers don't add up and you don't see to many of those in Group 1 races. . Your horse is $5 then you lay for $30k you win $6k. Seems a pretty low chance of this happening.

[aussiebreno]

Just one little thing you forgot Brenno is "THE PRICE" Unless your horse is $1.04 then your numbers don't add up and you don't see to many of those in Group 1 races. . Your horse is $5 then you lay for $30k you win $6k. Seems a pretty low chance of this happening.
Reread my post and you might see this "Calculations and figures may be wrong, but point is you can still win money win lose or draw".

[Pena]

There is no doubt that if you lay your horse in any race even a million dollar race and make money. But, work with me Brenno surely you must conceed if the prizemoney is higher there is less likelyhood and generally less need. Imagine winning a big race and thinking you would have to share your prizemoney with Betfair customers. Even the risk of it would drive me crazy.

[aussiebreno]

There is no doubt that if you lay your horse in any race even a million dollar race and make money. But, work with me Brenno surely you must conceed if the prizemoney is higher there is less likelyhood and generally less need. Imagine winning a big race and thinking you would have to share your prizemoney with Betfair customers. Even the risk of it would drive me crazy.
Reread my post and you might see this "Didn't say this situation was likely to play out, just that because there more money involved here, it would seem low prizemoney shouldn't be used as an excuse for criminals."

[Danno]

http://www.harnesslink.com/International/Steve-Wolf---Justin-Abbott

[Richard prior]

Looking at a nice sized holiday Danno, This is complete stupidity and we certainly don't need that in the game.

[Messenger]

Looking at a nice sized holiday Danno, This is complete stupidity and we certainly don't need that in the game.
It won't be to America :)

[doncht]

Back to AUS, too bad for him. https://imagicon.info/cat/10-3/1.gif

[hillbillydeluxe]

Yes it is a shame the current amount of trainers thinking that they have to use drugging there horses. It can't be for the prizemoney as its poor and it can't be for the punt as you can't get a great deal on.
Lets go over to the gallops, I have the od one racing in the country and fortunately a consistent one pays for my passion in Harness racing. There needs to be a huge over haul and increase in prizemoney to attract new owners to the sport and trainers need to be aware of daily rates as some are reasonable and others are living in fantasy land. What owner is going to pay a trainer $50 a day in Harness racing to race around Newcastle when I can have a galloper trainer charge me less than that to race for 3-4 times the prizemoney. does not need a mathematician to work out which is the better deal.

[jackthepunter]

Yes it is a shame the current amount of trainers thinking that they have to use drugging there horses. It can't be for the prizemoney as its poor and it can't be for the punt as you can't get a great deal on.
Lets go over to the gallops, I have the od one racing in the country and fortunately a consistent one pays for my passion in Harness racing. There needs to be a huge over haul and increase in prizemoney to attract new owners to the sport and trainers need to be aware of daily rates as some are reasonable and others are living in fantasy land. What owner is going to pay a trainer $50 a day in Harness racing to race around Newcastle when I can have a galloper trainer charge me less than that to race for 3-4 times the prizemoney. does not need a mathematician to work out which is the better deal.
what gallops trainer chargers that? any desent gallops trainer i know thats any good charges a least 100 a day with out any number of add ons.

[hillbillydeluxe]

Lots of Country trainers is what I am referring to. You can get country as low as $35 plus shoeing & vet, the norm is $50-60. I even know of trainers at Wyong charging $60 a day plus add ons.
Yes most city trainers are $110 + add ons.
My current country trainers Ballina & Wauchope are $55 & $50 plus shoeing $70 & $90 respectively- one includes trackwork rider one doesn't. one will have no transport charge within 150 k's the other free. there are all different liitle perks.


I know trainers in the harness industry that charge $60 for shoeing yet when I worked with a trainer back in the 80's & different one in the 90's they would do there own shoeing and charge bugger all not like these days, actually theres a thread I wonder how many younger trainers can actually shoe? not just tack on a shoe. I don't think there as many horseman as there was even a decade ago. Just my opinion.


When I was getting prices a lot of Menangle trainers wanted $1400 a month plus costs that's not to say your horse would race at headquarters depending on what we know, ability so it could enevitably race at Penrith or Newcastle etc.