Colts v Fillies

[Gtrain]

The obvious disdain of Aussie buyers for fillies is well known and solutions to this are constantly debated everywhere. When you look at it realistically though it's a hard sell. No mare has been truly dominant in harness racing practically ever like they can be in the thoroughbreds. Now I understand weight pull however look at Saturdays racing at Rosehill. The first seven in the golden slipper are fillies. Now that can't just be 2kgs. BMW winner is a mare.
I am getting to my question and keen to here answers from those breeders who know the ins and outs of the standardbred but why do thoroughbred mares/fillies seem to be able to compete with colts, particularly at the elite level, where Standardbreds clearly cannot? Is there some genetic disposition of standardbred mares that sets them at a disadvantage?

[Danno]

Don't pretend to have the answer Grant, but I have done a bit research on heart score in Standardbreds over the years and there is an indication that standardbred mares are generally 2 to 4 points lower than their male counterparts, obviously there are exceptions to the rule and heartscore is not the be all and end all measure of whether a horse is up to it or not, but there is sufficient information out there to give this some credibility in my opinion.

I have no idea how thoroughbreds go in the HS department and if there is any gender factor at work.

Gait is a consideration also, for instance I believe we have seen more trotting mares competitive at the top level than pacing mares.

Another thing that has just entered my thoughts is the tying up problem that we see in many mares but fewer males, I've had to deal with many a mare tying up over the years, but have never really done much work on why it is the mares more so than colts and geldings?? If a larger percentage of mares never reach their full potential due to this problem then what impact does that have?

Temperament is a consideration but I would not think our standardbred mares are any more whimsical than their thoroughbred counterparts.

It's a great question and I look forward to hearing other people's views.

cheers,
Dan

[Pena]

I think the programming in general says that fillies/mares just don't race against each other as 2 and 3 year olds and even as 4 years (with Breeders Crowns etc.) like they do in the gallops so I think it is almost impossible to assess.
Also with the weight relief that mare/fillies get the only penalty that you could give mares in harness racing is PBD on sex. I am pretty sure there are no Group 1 races that offer this concession.
Truth is if you owned a mare like Frith why would you not in you restrict her to fillies/mares racing. I think there is $625k reasons to stick to racing their own sex.

[Gtrain]

I think the programming in general says that fillies/mares just don't race against each other as 2 and 3 year olds and even as 4 years (with Breeders Crowns etc.) like they do in the gallops so I think it is almost impossible to assess.
Also with the weight relief that mare/fillies get the only penalty that you could give mares in harness racing is PBD on sex. I am pretty sure there are no Group 1 races that offer this concession.
Truth is if you owned a mare like Frith why would you not in you restrict her to fillies/mares racing. I think there is $625k reasons to stick to racing their own sex.

Hey Jack,
Im not denying the option of racing against your own sex makes absolute sense however it is a NECESSITY in the trots more so than the gallops because the fillies and mares CANNOT compete regularly. The odd one in a generation can. Frith, while she is a great mare, would get donkey licked by guaranteed, chilli palmer etc. It just seems a real anomaly in the trots to have a mare that could keep up with colts. We have a miracle mile where you will only ever see 1 mare take its place in the race, rarely win it, and its position in the field is often debated.

Black Cav dominated in the gallops at wfa and handicap at G1 level. As did Diva. Look back through history ad it is very very hard to find a mare that has DOMINATED like a colt or gelding can. They have won odd races here and there but never regularly. Surely there has to be something to this.

[aussiebreno]

Is the question why are fillies in Standardbreds unable to compete, or is the question why are fillies in Thoroughbred racing able to compete? I reckon the more pertinent question is why are Thoroughbred fillies able to compete with their male counterparts.
In humans, we know men eclipse the girls in running, swimming etc.
We know in the animal kingdom that the boys usually do the hunting because they are quicker and stronger.
We see Testosterone (in both humans and horses) being used as a performance enhancer regularly. We don't see estrogen.
I reckon whatever usually makes males better at running is exactly why standard bred males are better performed than fillies. But why can thoroughbred fillies compete? As you sort of mentioned, WFA scale would be one key reason. That said, that can't be only reason for the result in the Slipper as the fillies ran top 7 and I reckon would have trifectaed it at level weights. But generally speaking I reckon main reason is the WFA scale.
As for giving a similar advantage in harness, we do have PBD/S and I doubt there is a fairer system, but we limited by the nature of how we race.

[Pena]

I know sometimes the facts are sometimes hidden by the facts.
I heard this morning that it was the second time in history that fillies ran 1-2-3, so it is not as if it happens all that often but it did happen last Saturday.
Despite getting a massive weight advantage and many of the best generation I think the last 3yo filly to win the Cox Plate was Surround and I will be surprised if a 3yo filly wins again in the next 20 years.
Truth is it is very difficult for mares/fillies to compete against colts geldings notwithstanding 2yo thoroughbred racing. Even if you look at races like the Coolmore (Sprint) , Cox Plate and 3yo Autumn races you get very different statistics. Mares like Sunline, Makybe Diva and Black Caviar are the exception not the rule. Look at a last seasons star fillies, Guelph and Overreach likely to be retired and in the breeding barn this season.
The point I am making is particularly as 2yo the fillies and colts really never compete so the comparison is not relevant.

[Gtrain]

I definitely see your point Jack. But we have seen mares like Sunline, Cav, Diva, Allinghi, Private Steer, More Joyous, Miss Andretti, Miss Finland etc. we have no real bona fide pin up girl of harness racing, no freak story of a mare beating up on the boys.
I certainly wish your stat about fillies in the cox was wrong. Samantha Miss would have been a great result for my wallet. She was competitive and maybe even unlucky, imagine putting a 3yo filly in against Smoken up? I know I have neglected the weight pull in that example but are thoroughbred mares just 'up to it' more physically?

[Lucky Camilla"s Lovechild]

Blossom Lady says hi!

[Richard prior]

Not as often as the TB's but we've seen some pretty good race mares, Totally agree with Blossum Lady and then you have the likes of Scotch Notch, Pride of Petite, Robin Dundee, Armalight, Delightful Lady and more recently Lombo Rapida was very handy. Norms Daughter and Baby Bling were also good enough to win the Miracle Mile.

[Danno]

Yeh Leigh so does Norms Daughter, Tailamade Lombo,Delightful lady,Roma Hanover, Sabilize, Teeny Rena, Stella Frost and Robin Dundee, and please forgive me if I've left someone out, but thats my memory of mares that could be regularly competitive at the highest level.....not many in 45 years is it?

[p plater]

Just having a look at Menangle's new site and see the list of track records http://www.menangleparkpaceway.com.au/racing_trackrecords.html
Comparing the sexes records is interesting for this thread and discussion.

[Danno]

Thanks Bailey, sort of backs up what we have heard about the difference between S/Bred genders, but can someone find any credible information around times in the T/Bred world? We all know the thoroughbreds are no way near as "hung up" on times as we are ( something that continues to annoy me)

[Mitch]

Whilst I don't know the answer I don't believe the WFA scale of weight in thoroughbred racing is the reason like some have suggested. The 3 best mares in recent times and possibly of all time are Sunline, Black Caviar & Makybe Diva. I doubt anyone would argue that?

All 3 won handicap races carrying well above WFA and on multiple occasions. The best thoroughbreds, male or female, are almost expected to win handicaps carrying weights in excess of the WFA scale to be considered champions. Many still argue horses such as Lonhro are not champions as they couldn't win major handicaps carrying weight.

[Viv Strangman]

The situation has certainly changed over my lifetime. As a youngster Robin Dundee and then Stella Frost were as good if not better than the boys. Right through the 1980s and 1990s there were plenty of mares that dished it up to the boys in Nz. From Hilarious Guest to Armalight, Delightful Lady, Bonnies Chance and Blossom Lady to name just a few, the best mares were more than a match for the colts. But from the turn of the century the colts in the main have had it to themselves. Adore Me as a five year old will take on the boys on the grand circuit next year but she is the exception rather than the rule these days

[Mighty Atom]

Yeh Leigh so does Norms Daughter, Tailamade Lombo,Delightful lady,Roma Hanover, Sabilize, Teeny Rena, Stella Frost and Robin Dundee, and please forgive me if I've left someone out, but thats my memory of mares that could be regularly competitive at the highest level.....not many in 45 years is it?

If we're going back 45 years you can add another to the list.......the brilliant Dainty's Daughter, back then, the world record holder for two miles.

[Danno]

Thanks for that Rod, how could I miss her?, but you know what the message is, there are far fewer mares in that top echelon than colts and geldings, in particular, as Viv pointed out, in recent times.

[Messenger]

Maybe the ability to carry weight and thus win top WFA and Hcap races is the difference between the codes in producing more champion mares. Maybe size is a factor in ability to carry weight and I am thinking a lot of the open filly Tbred champions are built like colts. Then with Harness is pulling weight considered much of a factor and if not big mares have no advantage. LOL I am not even convincing myself

[brent_L]

Great question Grant.
Remember folks, Grant mentioned 'dominant', not just competitive (apologies if some of those horses mentioned were in fact the best of their time, they were well before my time). In the twenty years I've been following am I right in saying 2 trotting mares have been dominant......Pride Of Petite & Sumthingaboutmaori?? Think they both started fav in Inter finals + other G1s. Sure haven't seen a pacing mare do similar.
Cheers

[Richard prior]

Hi Brent, Yes it is a great topic posted by Grant and it's certainly another of the mystery's of the harness racing game. As a small time breeder, I would prefer that my filly's raced against their own sex during their careers and to race against the boys at G1 level, A filly or mare would have to be truly outstanding against her own sex. Can't quite remember if Elect to Live started favourite in the Aust Derby or it's Group status at the time but, She was outstanding and ran the boys off their legs to win.

[arlington]

A great discussion, especially bringing up all those wonderful females.
With the advent of same sex juvenile racing we may not see the return of a dominant mare. Significant prize money can be earned without a filly needing to compete against the boys before she turns five. That is the big incentive for knowledgeable buyers to look at fillies. Perhaps there is the hype surrounding stallions during yearling sales time that flows through to the colts on offer.
Taking a quick look at a couple of this season's 2yo's, a filly like Rosie OReilly, race 10 Melton, 4 Apr 2014 I'd imagine would be more than competitive with the boys if given an advantage like the Slipper fillies. Would the thoroughbred calculation of 1.5kg = 1 length be appropriate considering the weight has to be carried the entire race. Would 1kg be equivalent to 10 metres start?
I think another significant difference between the codes is a filly can focus on one distance range through out her career in the thoroughbreds. Of course the males can too but wonder what the result would be if that was the case in harness racing, and considering WFA.

[racenut]

Tailamade Lombo regularly raced against the boys, even as a 3 year old. She won an Australian Derby, ran second (to Holmes DG) in a NSW Derby and ran 3rd in a Qld Derby.
She then came out as an early 4 year old and beat the boys in the 4&5 yr old Melton Plate and followed it up with a 2nd in the Miracle Mile (to Christian Cullen)
She continued that season with a 3rd in Ballarat cup, 4th in Vic Cup. Won the Grand Prix (Beating Safe And Sound)
She also won Bendigo and Cranbourne Cups as well as a Queensland Pacing Championship (Beating Courage Under Fire)

[Richard prior]

We've all overlooked lots of the great mares over the years and it's good to reminisce. Adore Me is certainly heading towards that same status, She was super last night in NZ. Off 40m she gave Border Control 30m start and a beating. More than capable of sticking it to the boys without a doubt.

[mightymo]

We've all overlooked lots of the great mares over the years and it's good to reminisce. Adore Me is certainly heading towards that same status, She was super last night in NZ. Off 40m she gave Border Control 30m start and a beating. More than capable of sticking it to the boys without a doubt.

She does look a fantastic mare, but that race last night didnt have the open age free for allers. I cant see her beating Beautide and co

[Richard prior]

Agree Harvey, Beautide and Co are another level up IMHO.