How do we make Harness Racing strong via today's sports betting market

[Messenger]

The last couple of posts in the sprint lane thread have scared me. Some weeks back I posted that a well known gallops personality teased me that Harness would be irrelevant in a few years.

With all forms of racing being dependent on their share of the gambling pie what can we do to stay viable

Suggestions pop up from time to time on various threads. Harness bodies conduct surveys and I imagine would be interested in what you people have to say so let's do our bit right here and start a list.

Eg.

Recently I remember someone suggesting that it cannot be that hard to make all runners as easily identifiable as the Doggies do

In the Sprint lane thread I was swayed that in this day and age every horse has to have an opportunity in the straight and that this should be uniform for all tracks

If you want to expand the title a little go ahead. The punting dollar is no doubt our lifeblood but we have to have horses and owners putting on the show

Over to you .......

[Danno]

The game needs more exposure to the wider public, in recent years we have been marketing the game to it's brethren.

How you do this is the tricky bit, we get next to no coverage ( unless it's bad) on Radio, TV and the papers, how can we change that?
Does harness racing need a team of highly professional, "runs on the board" publicists? If so what shape does that take and how does it get paid for?

The gallops are facing a similar problem to us but from a completely different standing, look at the papers, they are getting a pretty fair run there.

[p plater]

There can be no doubt the amount of dollars spent by the gallops in newspapers keeps it and creates interest. Over the last 10 to 20 years harness racing has lost its valuable scribes eg Bill Ellis (retired), Adam Hamilton (to TAB) plus others. I remember talking talking to Bill Ellis some years ago about his column getting smaller all the time and the answer was $$$$$$$, the gallops paid for the space he had and his space was reduced.

The other area where this paid for space has a great impact is that it allows the gallops to create personalities such as trainers " Waterhouse, Moodie, Cummings" etc plus jockeys stories on their life and hardships or just feel good stories. Harness racing does not have the space to develop a following of any participant, unless its bad.

Who are the good looking, talented young drivers to promote a Groupie following in harness racing......we must appeal to the young generation with new technologies

[Lucky Camilla"s Lovechild]

I presume none of you answered the recent questionaire online?

[barney]

A good start to increase the sport of harness racing to appeal to punters would be to limit who can drive at a metro track.
Some of the drives recently leave a lot to be desired and surely now its time to make a rule that only compnent drivers can drive in town.I wont name names but there was a shocker yesterday at Melton driver seemed either in compnet or disinterested or both.The horse was long odds but had trialed well.

[Chariots]

A very good question Leigh, I completed the survey and encouraged others to do the same.

[Messenger]

I presume none of you answered the recent questionaire online?
Did you mean to say "I presume all of you" but Guilty there Leigh. You know how it is - when it the survey lobs depends on its chances, I would receive around 20 surveys a year and probably complete half of them.

What were the highlights of the survey Leigh ie its strengths/areas it focused on?

Unfortunately the survey which was released in mid March is now closed. I noticed that Ray (the only posting reply) mentioned it had a strong focus on integrity

[Messenger]

The game needs more exposure to the wider public, in recent years we have been marketing the game to it's brethren.

How you do this is the tricky bit, we get next to no coverage ( unless it's bad) on Radio, TV and the papers, how can we change that?
Does harness racing need a team of highly professional, "runs on the board" publicists? If so what shape does that take and how does it get paid for?

The gallops are facing a similar problem to us but from a completely different standing, look at the papers, they are getting a pretty fair run there.

Danno, I completely agree with you and Bailey. I think TV advertising pushing free admittance should be a major part. Let people know that there is a free show on - and make it a show.

Recently our little zoo in the Grampians decided to have a gold coin donation Sunday to say thank you to the Fireys . They ran a few ads for it on local Win TV. People came from 100's of Kms away in there thousands. We are a small tourist town that attracts big numbers especially on long weekends and school holidays and especially Easter for the athletics Gift in neighbouring Stawell. The zoo is a few km out of town but I have never seen the town so full eg I went down the Main St a few times and there were always queues coming out the doors of the food stores. I have never seen anything like it. The pub a couple of km away that normally does 50 meals on such a Sunday did about 500 until they ran out of food.

Probably a bit too much detail there but I wanted to illustrate how keen people can get when they sense value for money. You might think that the appeal was raising money for charity but I know otherwise. You would also gather that although the attraction might be value for money - the people still spent money.

Getting some TV race coverage, might help. You would think it would certainly help but you have to make the general public aware of it and build an audience. I think one off's like the ch9 Inter coverage fall down for the reason that it takes weeks to build an audience other than current devotees. I think the gallops initiative of showing Saturday racing on 7TWO (about 30? - every major Sydney or Melb meet) is an interesting one but I do not know what their audience figures are. I do know that it is not publicized well enough and that there are still punters that do not know that it is on

Someone once posted to me that Menangle has better prize-money that Melton thanks to the Harold Park sale. If this is true then use that premium to promote the game in the media instead as a few years of improved prize-money means nothing if the sport starts to falter in a few years

[strong persuader]

Tragically, I fear that we may have gone too far down the track ever come back. Some of the initiatives implemented by our controlling bodies in the past have done nothing but drive our industry down into despair. So whatever is done from now on needs to focus on what it is that makes our industry what it is.

For one, we are not thoroughbred racing, never were and never will be, we were the best alternative to the sport of kings and we should focus on being just that.

Austrotforum had an interesting piece on 3/5/14, http://www.austrotforum.com/weblog/ worth a read I think. The author states that in previous times a strong healthy base of 'hobby' owner/trainer/drivers negated the need for the larger stables to have 3-4 runners in a race and the obvious negative reaction when one of their longer priced runners gets home over the much more fancied stablemate.

Another kneejerk reaction to keeping fields full is the dropback clause. It now means that many horses that were once capable of winning 3-4 races are now limited to 1 or 2 wins if they manage them in order (R0 then C0) and are no longer competitive. The faster they bring in conditioned racing and do away with this ridiculous situation of winning a maiden and then lining up against horses that may have won in excess of a dozen races, the better.

Decreasing the number of meetings at the smaller bush tracks has also resulted in a decline in the number of participants and consequently the number of horses available to make up fields. In the 80's I remember being at Bathurst Showgrounds in the rented stables when there were over a twenty trainers amongst the tenants, some of them even getting up to 20 or more horses, as of yesterday, there are 2 trainers on the showground and they would be lucky to have a ten horses betweem them. Granted some of moved out to their own establishments, but the alarming fact is that over a dozen hobby owner/trainer/driver types have disappeared from the industry.

Harness racing evolved from farmers, tradesman and the like having nice cart horse that showed a bit of toe on the way to town. We need to get back to showing people how versatile this breed is, promote the fact that people can own a horse that they may race, have as a showjumper for the kids, and then still be quiet enough for the youngest to take to pony club. How many of us have had the pleasure of seeing one of our kids take out one of our race horses into the show arena in the ridden events and then raced later in the day in a show trot. Talk to some of the people that have brought back the trots to the local shows, they love having them there for the simple reason they excite the people.

Educate the general population that harness racing isn't easy, we can't just take a horse out of a paddock, throw it into a barrier and hope the jockey can hang on for 800 metres to win a race. Standardbreds have to trained to be drivable, score up behind a moving car or be able to pace away from a standing start, not overrace no matter where it is in a field of 10 horses, over distances up to two miles. Tell them that owners and drivers accept that they sometimes have to go 3 back on the fence with a horse that isn't overly tough and drive them for luck. That it takes a pretty good horse to sit in the chair, hell, we all grew up calling it the death seat for obvious reasons. We are limited in what we can do with most horses, that we can't just whizz around the field and tough it outside the leader for five furlongs and still be competitive. That we are racing animals that are flesh and blood, not machines. To come along and enjoy all the intricacies and a good time with less focus on making money from the punt.

I think it is paramount that all racing clubs take up the challenge of providing a good restaurant area with good viewing of the racing so that our sport is more of an entertainment less business like. Maybe even a few dual seat carts whereby we can take patrons out between races for a feel of what it is like to be out there on the track. Even ask a few trainers to have race night assistants so that people can experience what goes on into putting the horses out there to race. I am yet to meet someone who has sat beside me on a horse jogging and not been enthralled with the idea of driving one. I know the head office will be having kittens at this thought, but most trainers aren't stupid, they know their horses and which ones they can do this stuff with.

Lets return to the basics, bring back the differences, right handed racing, standing starts, grass tracks, highlight the versatility of the breed, the enjoyment of going to the trots with your horse.

[Messenger]

I love the idea of the double cart rides between races Phil (or entertainment of some sort on the track between races)
The good restaurant/food suggestion would seem a no brainer - let's make it happen

How do you capture the general public to educate them about the breed is probably the question and we would have to see if today's younger folk even care

I wonder about handicap stand races, history books seem to suggest the public was captivated by champions making up huge starts. I wonder however if owners are likely to be interested

How important do you think it is for us to capture our share of the punting dollar?

ps Wanting to highlight the enjoyment of going to the trots with your horse you might want to change your signature ;)

[Danno]

Thats a great post Phil, you have highlighted many of the strong points that need promoting and a few of the mistakes that have been made in the past and present. Lots of relevant content IMO.

[gutwagon]

I took the survey .
I think we need our own dedicated station on sky. The current admin has lost touch with the industry, Montes and dash races (under 1609m) are stupid and embarrassing . I'm still not convinced that sprint lanes are an improvement .
I think the pony trots are a great idea, I always watch them when I'm on course. They should be better promoted.
With betting shifting online, all tracks should have free wi-fi. Nothing more frustrating than poor reception on your smart phones at some tracks .

[Messenger]

Rick, I said YES! when I read your reminder about Pony trots as they are great entertainment and a great promotional tool but then I remembered they are only going to happen at day meetings on non-school days but at least there are a few of them.
I wonder whether our own Sky station will only cater for the current enthusiasts and lose us converts?

Facilities have to be improved too - I would have gone to Hamilton today but I was partly put off by the weather and remembering that last winter the lounge only had 2 bar radiators on chairs for heating :eek:

[cityboy]

there is no help for harness racing , except for wa who set a good example, and victoria in a lesser degree, as for the rest you can leave me out as a participant and leave me out as a punter. they look after their pretty selves and i as a punter dont want to give them anything because they dont deserve punters like me and as far as im concerned they can starve like they have done to others......who wants to go to the trots and be surrounded by idiots and children doing mini trots? punters want 1. money. 2. have a good drink and feed. 3. plenty of chicks. 4. have a good time - money is not going to come from pensioners and children, and certainly not from driving punters that have a go out of the sport - there is the industry good luck leave me alone .

[p plater]

Bye George, you obviously, don't have your own chick nor God forbid children. There are plenty of others around who can enjoy themselves without your type of attitude.

Bali is good this time of year.

[cityboy]

nope your right there bailey, and i certainly dont want to go to bali (unless i got 4kg of marijuana in my surf bag) or jail like some of the crooked trainers and stewards, but i got better things to do like go to a pub or club and bet on the tab or net, (maybe pick up chicks) and not be caught up in the b@#$it that goes on the trots (or be involved with a trotting chick). if they want turnover then its about attracting people that will turnover money not market it to people that dont have capacity to turn over money. > people get burnt = industry sinks (except for new people putting in) as a spectator it doesnt look too pretty on tv. have fun baily with whats left of the industry, maybe one day it will be feasable for me to be a trainer/driver or some1 will have the guts to put up with me and i repay by kicking some butt. one thing i reckon would be a hit is the next underbelly being called `THE RED HOTS` after all the corruption thats gone on and the participants surrounding it, with a bit of fictional twist.

[p plater]

Sorry George, there would not be enough room for you and your ego.

[cityboy]

ah well bailey it takes a coward to be in a fight and guts to walk away from one for me it aint worth it. if i get treated with more decency and respect then yes i may be interested being involved on a daily basis. but with all the propaganda and innuendo im not happy being involved. thankyou baily for sharing your thoughts and wish you well. peace man..

[Messenger]

George suggests we need to market to people that have the capacity to turnover money but that we do not look that pretty on TV (I love the trots but have never asked an unbiased person what they think)
I will throw in some alternative ideas
What if we cannot get a big enough share of the sports betting market? Do we even want to be at the mercy of the punting dollar?
Should we be happy to be a distant 2nd/3rd tier of racing and cut our cloth accordingly
Should we be aiming to be an entertainment package. Football is now attracting a big slice of the sports betting market but it does not even need it - they have a product that people love to watch/attend.
I think Phil's earlier post is on this track

The sun is out now! I should be at Hamilton :)

[cityboy]

one interesting point i have to my previous comments about `not looking pretty on tv` at bankstown paceway there is a `hock -a-car ` billboard on the turn entering the back straight - that business owner was part of the crimminal underworld who commited suicide in 2011 and was all over the newspapers and that business ceased trading. dont you think hrnsw would take some initiative and spend a few hundred dollars to have it covered over. and possibly put some new fences in just to make it look a bit prettier on tv? maybe new sponsers and just have a more vibrant promotional crew or maybe even `tender it` on a performance for payment basis? maybe there is not a place for all the outgoing tracks as im aware of big plans for incoming tracks , so i suppose there is this transition period of about 1-3 years for everything to be completed, thought there is this flat spot we are debating. (thought there is nothing left for city folk) whom most dont want to travel to the new tracks.

[Amlin]

Interesting comments coming through. I recently managed a club on a p/t basis - my second stint there after a stint there some years back. There is no comparing the industry now to back some 10 years ago sadly.


Majority of clubs are struggling for money within the industry, even some of the larger ones. You would be surprised how many clubs in fact. A club receives 10% of on-course turnover but there is not much incentive for a club to promote a day like today for example, so your on-course hold (TAB and bookmaker) would be lucky to exceed $8000. Add to this a gate of about $150 and probably $200 at the bar and you can see how difficult it is for a club to generate income, let alone pay wages, bills etc.


Turnover on some weekday/night meets can be as little as $2000-$3000 on-course.


Clubs receive marketing $$ for their Cup only (once a year) which must be matched dollar for dollar, unlike the greyhounds where a marketing budget exists year round.


Having also worked in the broadcast media mainly across the greyhound code for the last couple of years, I have experienced how their meetings are promoted/received. While their crowds on average are not better than the trots, their sport is promoted exceptionally well, although of course this does all come at a cost.


One thing they do offer in Vic is that all their Cup races are staged for virtually the same minimum stake - as an example the Warragul Cup carries the same stake as the Ballarat Cup unlike in the trots where there is around $100,000 difference. This would be difficult to implement in the trots due to the different class of horse competing across the Cup's, however consider that the Warragul Cup stake of $25,000 has not risen since 2006, and that the club probably puts in some $10,000 of its own money to that stake, unlike the dogs.


And where are the earning opportunities for horses once they win their M0? Once you are out of an M0 you will probably encounter Smoken Up each week. Going back some 10-15 years you could win 3 or 4 in town then sell the horse to WA or USA - I don't know if this still happens as frequently.


I am sure we all remember trips to the Valley and dining in the members or Celebrity Room and watching the car park fill up. The biggest mistake was leaving the inner city, where the money is re potential owners/investors in our sport. The research proved some years back that the majority of members of the then VHRC lived in the Eastern suburbs. While the trainers are "out the other side" they will find it hard to train without owners.


One thing we can probably all agree on is that too many mistakes have been made by successive boards/administrators, and I certainly noticed in my second brief stint in management that there was very little in the way of support or money in my club. If this is reflective of other clubs then yes it will be an interesting/challenging next decade for our sport.


I have gone on for too long but two final points - I took a trots veteran to the dogs on a feature night at Sandown last year and he couldn't believe the atmosphere and the quality service in the dining package we had - I think he said he went home and cried! Secondly, the Gippsland Harness Training Centre has some 17 full-time students at present, many from the Latrobe Valley region (Traralgon) where racing ceased nearly 20 years ago. This course has run since 1997 largely without any support from the controlling body. Indeed the Chairman toured the facility recently and stated he had no idea that such an operation even existed.


I can tell you a lot more, maybe some other time. I retain a committee involvement but have become disillusioned somewhat with the racing industry in recent times for a variety of reasons, and I do feel sorry for those still battling away in the trots who throw their heart and soul into it seven days a week.

[Toohard]

Perfectly said Phil.

Pity thread spoilt by negative comments.

Need people to think "Why did I get involved?" and try pass that on to others. I don't have a 'horse' background. A school mate of mine did. I got caught up in it because of he and his familys involvement. Been involved ever since. Not a big punter so not helping that way but spending on the breeding & racing side.

Don't have to push people into it. Just need to get them to be part of it. Let them see how much work goes into it and then might appreciate why people get so excited when they have a small success and join in. Won't be everyones cup of tea but there must be people out there who would get the same enjoyment out of it as we do.

My young son not a big fan at first. He loves it now and I was a little amazed when asked him a while back why he liked it so much.

Happened to breed a good horse that turned our household upside down and still does.

Was that it?
Nope.

So was because of Smoken Up?
Nope.

Scratch head.. so why?
You remember that day Fez won at Yarra Glen.

Never forget it. That why?
Yep.

Why?
Coz you were so excited and happy and you had so much fun chasing him around. Even when he got beat every time you were still happy when you got home. Fez (eventually) won a C0 and was then retired.

It's a different world these days. A 'soft' world. But surely there are people out there whose 'passion' can be awoken like mine and my sons was.... hard work, little or no reward, but then one day....

Phils post is spot on. Don't need marketing types. Need people who can show the challenge that it is. The non-stop work that people put in to get a horse to the races let alone win one.

When can you start Phil??

[Richard prior]

I think Phil should be running the show but no job for you George sorry, On ya bike!!

[Amlin]

And as soon as Phil and his ideas start operating successfully he and the blueprints will be poached by the gallops!

[Toohard]

Just reading this..

http://www.harness.org.au/news-article.cfm?news_id=23419

Whether you agree or disagree with the concept not the point. All that work done by HRA for nothing and a bid to attract new viewers thwarted because Sky Channel didn't come good with their side of the bargain. Good work them!

[Messenger]

Did that involve Cranbourne races 2&3 tonight Paul?

[Toohard]

Don't know for sure Kevin. There was certainly no mile races in the program I looked at. Assume they have been changed to mile races after the sky channel debacle.

[Lucky Camilla"s Lovechild]

Just reading this..

http://www.harness.org.au/news-article.cfm?news_id=23419

Whether you agree or disagree with the concept not the point. All that work done by HRA for nothing and a bid to attract new viewers thwarted because Sky Channel didn't come good with their side of the bargain. Good work them!
Gee, just browsing at what that hot shots is, it looks really exciting, at risk of putting the traditionalists off side.
And the fact they've got a few states involved is a great idea.

[Triple V]

Both Hot Shots and the similarly mindless ridiculously named tripe HRNSW served up here...complete with the dish licker colours...is nothing short of an absolute bloody travesty. It's a HRA green lighted TAB powered attempt to debase Harness Racing and turn it into a churn and burn Dog Lotto style product. Those behind it should individually and collectively hang their &$#ing heads in shame.

[Lucky Camilla"s Lovechild]

My hats off to them for at least trying something. Afterall, its only a few races. Its not as if its going to be a staple. Get it in the right time slot (maybe a Thursday or Friday afternoon) and we may be able to get some ground back off the Greyhounds.

[gutwagon]

Hot shots could only work if the races started on time and that just doesn't happen ! They need to fix that problem first.
Shorter gaps between races would help too. 20 to 25 min is plenty. 40 is crazy !

[Messenger]

I like that they are trying but cannot see why making them mile events could not be accommodated. Simplifying the colours is long overdue

ps Rick I did not tune into Sky until right on start time for each of the 7 races at Hamilton yesterday and they were spot on

[Amlin]

It is hard not to be negative particularly those who have seen what the sport was capable of achieving and comparing that to how it is perceived/supported now.


How about some thoughts on what you would do if offered the opportunity to help turn the sport around. What ideas do you have that could be implemented?


I have a couple of thoughts that have nagged me.


Firstly, we read in the gradually shrinking morning paper down here that Victoria is the best racing state in Australia, and has been for a great number of years. Why then do we not match this position, and given the amount invested on gambling on racing each year, with a decent daily formguide available to all punters for a minimum price? It could be sold in TAB outlets, or made available for free? The TAB could subsidise it - and before the argument is raised over the cost, surely this would be offset by increased turnover! And remembering, for the majority of its life, the TAB's core income has been through racing. Yet in recent years quality of service and facilities in TAB agencies for racing punters has dropped away.


Over in WA the Tabform used to be available at least twice a week for an extra dollar or so. A spinoff called Allform ran here for a little while - well over 100 pages each Friday covering Fri, Sat and Sun for $2, with just form and barely any editorial.


Each day the Tele runs nearly every meeting with fields, even the Advertiser in Adelaide does too. Yet here in Victoria they can't even include all local meets in the guide on a Sunday.


On another matter, there are three "house" ads in the sports section in today's paper - surely there is not one person on the staff who could have written 100 words about the trots rather than just a filler ad? I think two identical ads were even published on consecutive pages! That blows away the argument about not being any space in the paper to promote the sport!


Secondly, it is interesting to note Victoria is the only state in Aus where the major racing venue is controlled/managed by the controlling body. Do people in Victoria feel this may be holding the sport back?


Yes all the other metro stand alone clubs receive money from and are responsible to the state body but they do have dedicated staff who are responsible only for the operation/promotion of the city venue. In turn the controlling body then can focus on marketing/supporting the sport at a country level, with overlap where required.


Most importantly, the city club has its own bank balance. If the controlling body has xx dollars allocated for marketing and that has to be spread across city and country, no one benefits.


The AFL oversees its competition, but does not operate a club on a day to day basis. Both city greyhound clubs in Melbourne are stand alone entities, while RVL does not control the day to day operations of horse racing at Caulfield.


Is one state right and five wrong or vice versa?

[Toohard]

Jaimie..wasn't saying in favour of the short trip racing. Just trying to show how hard it is to do anything. Sky Channel not ready..can all the work that's been done. WTF!!

Had mate worked for HRA for while. Said was the biggest 'tail wagging dog' place ever worked for. The states run it and even within the states the clubs run it.

Don't know the answer but for starters lets get Phil, Amlin and the Ballarat club to take charge!!

[Messenger]

Kyle, I would have thought that the internet is where everybody gets their form nowadays (even oldies like me) - they can then access race replays too if they like. I would buy Harness Racing Weekly if it was more news and less form.
The paper you are talking about is The Herald Sun? The ads would be paid for or are 'house' ads promoting themselves? The Age never ever gives the trots a mention, when I got the HS I remember there being a write up next to the form on Mondays. Adam Hamilton was a great advocate for Harness - we should have in our industry not the gambling industry

[Triple V]

Everyone needs to ask themselves why it is that SKY is apparently so willing to commit all those resources with microphones on Drivers, trackside interviews, stats and background stuff from Hosts...thereby showcasing all those positive aspects...if a shortening of the race distances to less than a Mile and thus heading down the Dog Lotto road was not their underlying agenda/goal.
A good mate of mine made an excellent suggestion to HRNSW some time ago now. Why not place a couple of Stewards in the back stretch to signal all clear instead of waiting for the horses to return to the front stretch? This whole push to shorten races is about getting the Punters to re-invest ASAP. Why not work on shortening the declaration of all clear time and for that matter the time between races? Up to 40mins between races is just absurd.

[Richard prior]

I'll 2nd your suggestion Paul and I think that David Aldred would be handy as well, Read a long and detailed article about how he turned Harness Racing In Canada right around for the better. Pretty sure David James from Empire would be able to help out with the programming of fillies/mares races and as Rick suggested, 20 minutes between races would be much better than 40 minutes, Experienced this at Yonkers a few years ago and it gives you enough time to study the form, grab a coffee or beer and by that time, The horses are scoring up.

[Triple V]

HRV has the inestimable programming talents of John Peck right on their doorstep. Why they do not use him to line up on special projects such as Fillies and Mares racing remains one of life's great mysteries.

[Messenger]

The more I think about it, the more I think getting people back to the trots is the key.
Tv advertising free admission and attractions, good food/dining options.

We have had some attractions already mentioned. I will add more half mile TT events. Make it a betting event with decent prize-money and one horse trialling between each of the regular races, as it is, the time between races can be a bit of a drag (not everyone is interested in interstate, esp on course). I would opt for half mile as that way trainers will be less concerned about having their horse 'flattened' by a full mile. Of course as far as gambling goes there will be the odd meet where the first horse and the last horse to trial will experience different conditions but that is all part of punting

If we can get a good following again (read punting base), maybe somewhere down the track we can get a 2hr slot for 4+ races on one of the lesser TV channels, maybe Fri or Sat in the NON football season, or Thursday all year. Alternatively looking to the future maybe we could aim for and promote a slot such as this of 'unmetered' internet viewing

2nd thoughts - the TT is unlikely to get Sky coverage and therefore it would not attract much of a punting pool but simply be between races entertainment Hmmm?

[Amlin]

I suggested at a forum last year that potentially we could grab Sky2 as well as Sky1 for a Friday night for a more detailed coverage with interviews, parade ring footage etc, but it was felt the cost of an extra cameraman per week would be prohibitive.


What about a fixed camera overlooking the parade ring? A more in depth coverage like what used to be presented on Ch31 surely could only increase turnover, and pay for that cameraman!!

[Triple V]

i suggested at a forum last year that potentially we could grab sky2 as well as sky1 for a friday night for a more detailed coverage with interviews, parade ring footage etc, but it was felt the cost of an extra cameraman per week would be prohibitive.

What about a fixed camera overlooking the parade ring? A more in depth coverage like what used to be presented on ch31 surely could only increase turnover, and pay for that cameraman!!

vvv-amen!

[Danno]

I will say it again.....the answer is NOT changing how we race, it is about exposure to a wider audience, get more people involved, as Phil outlined in his earlier post, we are targeting our game to an ever shrinking market of participants, participants are the lifeblood of this game, everthing else follows, it has been the case from day one when trotting went from racing your carthorse to town and back to formalised racing on set circuits, the game has thrived or otherwise on participation levels...turnover, prizemoney,foal numbers,yearling prices, etc,etc will all grow when participation grows.....participant growth will not occur, until exposure levels improve.

cheers,
Dan

[Lucky Camilla"s Lovechild]

I will say it again.....the answer is NOT changing how we race, it is about exposure to a wider audience, get more people involved, as Phil outlined in his earlier post, we are targeting our game to an ever shrinking market of participants, participants are the lifeblood of this game, everthing else follows, it has been the case from day one when trotting went from racing your carthorse to town and back to formalised racing on set circuits, the game has thrived or otherwise on participation levels...turnover, prizemoney,foal numbers,yearling prices, etc,etc will all grow when participation grows.....participant growth will not occur, until exposure levels improve.

cheers,
Dan
Danno, no one is changing the way we race. But as you say we need more exposure. Currently what we are doing is obviously not working. Simple as that! I say lets use that small window of opportunity to show the wider public a smidgen of what harness racing is about, and how exciting it can be. Dog lotto, hot shots, whatever you want to call it, I say give it a go and lets see what happens. It sure as f**k beats sitting on your thumbs reminising bout the good old days while our sport is slowly haemmoraging!

[Messenger]

I have been all about exposure Danno - TV advertising is the best option IMO.

[Messenger]

Just thinking about TV exposure/advertising. I just realized the things I laugh about on country TV (god our weekend visitors love the ads LOL) should be working to Harness's advantage.

The Western District is pretty much the home of harness so why is it that I get someone come on (during what would be a prime ad slot in Melbourne but we have different ads remember) and tell me that Drung South 27.15 defeated Cuddgyware 1.1 etc AND our news (yes we have local news when you get your Current Affair) will have about 15min of local footy every night but never anything about Harness.

The local gallops trainer like Weir and the local gallops meets will get a brief mention but NEVER harness. I played for one of these football teams once long ago and if you knew the standard of some games it is mind-boggling to think that up here thanks to Win any old stuggling footy team can get as much air time as any AFL team.

Reading the history of the Horsham Trotting Club, they always seemed to have people of influence involved so surely todays harness officials have as much clout as the President of Drung South so why can't we lobby for a bit of coverage.

[Danno]

Danno, no one is changing the way we race. But as you say we need more exposure. Currently what we are doing is obviously not working. Simple as that! I say lets use that small window of opportunity to show the wider public a smidgen of what harness racing is about, and how exciting it can be. Dog lotto, hot shots, whatever you want to call it, I say give it a go and lets see what happens. It sure as f**k beats sitting on your thumbs reminising bout the good old days while our sport is slowly haemmoraging!

Leigh,
I'm not saying lets sit our collective thumbs, more saying that our proble lies in the ever shrinking number of participants, be they owners, trainers, breeders,drivers and punters or any combination of the afforementioned.
This silly game we play had it's origins and was developed by its PARTICIPANTS.

The TAB turnover will grow when we have more participants because that is how this game has always been relevant...Little Johnny from up the road has a horse going OK and gets a following, young Mary does the same, etc etc. This is not and never was the sport of kings, it is and always was the horse racing caper of tradesmen, publicans, farmers and "ordinary folk".

In my humble opinion, therein lies a large part of our problem, we have forgotten who we are and who we should be projecting ourselves toward.

Cheers,
Dan

[Lucky Camilla"s Lovechild]

I think we need to get TAB turnover growing first. Prizemoney will increase, and then participants will return. But before we can get TAB turnover growing, we need to address the integrity of the sport. I dont believe anyone in the sport has forgotten who we are and why we got involved in harness racing. We just need people not invovled in harness racing to believe they can invest their hard earned, on or in an honest above board sport. I believe syndicates are a great way of introducing new people to our sport for a modest outlay. I know its not a new idea. But have the HRV or HRNSW ever invested heavily in it before.

[Sofoulis]

Very interesting thread and it is clear that everyone posting is wanting the best for harness racing.


For what it is worth, I think TV advertising and exposure on news or other TV programs is a great way to reignite the memories of attending the trots in the glory days. Many of my colleagues who see random pictures I have of my horses will comment "oh, I remember going to Gloucester park as a kid, I absolutely loved it" and I think TV 'reminders' of this is a great way to reinitiate their interest and the big events (take inters night at Gloucester Park a few years ago) demonstrate that this still works and that the trots resonates with the community. The tricky part is getting people interested in the industry for more than just one night a year and, in my view, a good way to do this is through an ownership interest. The problem is, most people (including me a few years back) have absolutely no idea how to get involved or are worried about being screwed over financially (again, like what happened to me a few years back).


A few of the clubs have got 'club horses' and this is a great idea - but perhaps it only gets exposure to those already involved in the industry. I think though, each of us can play a small part that collectively could make a big difference by just introducing or reintroducing people to our great sport.


As an example, a few weeks back there was a charity quiz night I was involved in. Prizes were the usual (a nights accommodation, or a bottle of wine or a voucher etc.) but the winning team also got a 5% share in a standardbred. Thanks to the trainer, it is being trained on a 50/50 basis so they are not going to be out-of-pocket. Thanks to the agent, commission was reduced and thanks to the existing owners who agreed to give up just a small % each etc (contributions from everyone involved)...


The winning table consisted of 5 people, none of whom had ever owned a horse, but:
1 grew up going to Gloucester Park and loved it
1 always wanted a 'pony' as a kid and says she is now effectively living that dream
1 didn't even know horses could race "with a cart on their back"
and all 5 of them are emailing me explaining how exciting it is and how they love telling their friends and family about it etc. etc. and the interest in our sport becomes exponential. Whether or not they ever get another horse is still to be seen, but it can only be good for the sport.


And, as an owner in the sport, there is nothing better than sharing the experience with others - both the highs and lows!!!


To clarify, I am not suggesting we all put our hands in our pocket and give everyone free shares in our horses, I am just suggesting that this personal 'marketing' of our sport is something we can do ourselves without relying on HRA or the state bodies or the clubs.....

[Njcstables]

Both Hot Shots and the similarly mindless ridiculously named tripe HRNSW served up here...complete with the dish licker colours...is nothing short of an absolute bloody travesty. It's a HRA green lighted TAB powered attempt to debase Harness Racing and turn it into a churn and burn Dog Lotto style product. Those behind it should individually and collectively hang their &$#ing heads in shame.

Absolutely couldn't agree more!

[cyclone george]

While I agree whith most of what has been discussed I really believe you have all missed the most important thing that harness racing has not built on . Yearling sales , or should I say lack of promotion. The apg site is a total disgrace ,we have had our race series no mention of any winners ,not even a word about the sensational achievement of bill and Anne breading both winners, that follows the stars cost about 20 grand only( I think) .

I know Kyle rang our local win news in gippsland and did a story on queen of pop's win ,it was a very good story interviewed Gary and Debbie , show the race etc, so it can be done.

In nz as a horse that's wins a group race anywhere in Australia or nz there is story about it on the nz website. How many of the horses that mark has brought out of the sales here have become top line horses ,and not a word on apg site or harness site.

I've just syndicated a horse , and the people have had a few gallopers as such with not a lot of luck , it's a well bred yearling,I haven't promised them anything but one thing it really did surprised them was the amount of money the horse could race for. Eg apg ,sires,breeders crown etc ,derbys,breeders crown again etc, and they can't believe how cheap it is to train one compared to gallopers.

There plenty to promote ,the social aspects, fun of owning one ,more owners will breed more punters and it all starts with sales, honest educated trainers,(that's where the kiwis kill us),and vibrant administrators, I believe in the theory that your CEO should be changed every 6-8 years ( there is exceptions) because they have new ideas,new directions just look at footy clubs.

Vvv I would like to see 1 race per meeting 1000-1200m for three months ,every meeting race 3 ,call it the sprint or whatever,any class ,our horses are going so quick now like gallopers a lot can't even stay a flat out 1200. 20 years ago every horse could run a mile and a half ,now there a lot can there best up to 1800, and it will extend a few horses careers. I bet very little but I always bet on the sprints.

[Maorisidol]

Today we live in a mobile digital world.
Most people these days have the internet in their pocket on their smartphone.
Most people ON a trotting track these days have grey hair.
In 10 or more years 70% of them or more will not be with us.
Hence we need new people.
We need to connect with them thru Social Media, cos thats where they are.
Its the biggest shift in technology and communication EVER and its happening virally faster than most realise.
Make it specky, make it exciting, make it social, make it fun, make it relevant.
The trots should be on Instagram, with shots from a sulky, shots from the bar, shots from the grandstand, shots from a Go-Pro camera looking back at the driver mounted on the saddle.
To CONNECT with nearly anyone under 50 years of age, you will find them,(and might i say way cheaper than TV ads and other traditional forms of advertising that were all relevant 20 years and 10 and 5 years ago,) on Facebook, Instagram, Snapchat etc.
I was in San Diego recently at the IHRSA World Fitness Convention and Trade Show, and of the key speakers to present to the absolute most powerful Club Owners in the US Europe Asia NZ and Australia was a guy called Gary Vaynerchuk and he blew the 2000 people away. He was the only person over 4 days to get a standing ovation, it was amazing, incredible, moving, stunning, i left that presentation went back to my hotel room and went online to buy 2 of his books. he was all about Social Media and he grabbed those 2000 people by the shirt, slapped them in the face and told them they are ALL advertising in a 2004 kind of way expecting a 2014 result. Ya gotta change. Ya gotta get relevant. Ya gotta get CURRENT.
Now i am not saying this is THE answer but by hell if you are not on it, you’re not in it. You wanna learn about Social Media, google Gary, and if you don’t think this is real, by hell you will change your mind if you read enough, it won’t take long.

I think the Kids trot races are one of the cleverest innovations. Its gets the kids a taste of the electricity of being in a race and funnels them into junior drivers and so on.
Their families follow them thru their journey, their friends come to the track to watch and you must imagine it should produce us better drivers in the long term. Just like most Formula 1 race car drivers started in go-karts, makes sense.

As others have alluded to, how about pushing syndicates?
Have a marketing team put together a package to sell to businesses from a staff bonding, Team Building, Social Committee point of view that brings the staff together and to bond out of work. Employees are always after a great staff environment and want to be known as a “preferred employer”.
The company could buy a $10,000 or $20,000 racing pacer. The staff can "buy in" for $50, $100, $500 or whatever, hell the company can even make a profit on it if they are smart. It can be part owned or at least guided by a HRV staff member (for example) who get a local Melton trainer to PRIMARILY race at Melton cos most syndicate owners may live not too far away.
Each club could have a similar concept where the sole purpose of this horse with maybe 100 owners or 10 owners race regularly at each local meeting to get as many owners TO THE TRACK as possible. And of course they will bet…
Sell 100 syndicates around Australia and thats a lot of people. Give each horse a Facebook page that the owners regularly go to and virally all the “friends” of the owners find out about the trots!

[HaroldParker]

"Driver Chris Alford (Chilli Palmer, $1.40 fav) explained that he had attempted to gain a three wide trail into the race, initially behind Kotare Roland NZ (Emmett Brosnan), however when that gelding failed to shift wider he gained a trail on Im Barney Rubble NZ (Lance Justice) which failed to take him sufficiently into the race. Mr Alford added that over the fast final quarter it would always be difficult for Chilli Palmer NZ to make up ground when wide on the track."

Back to back weeks Chris Alford has got away with shockers on Chilli Palmer but at least this past week the Stewards noted it and probably apologized for bothering him afterwards : )

A 1.51 on the CV Track/Distance, a 4yo Classic in WA and a recent Geelong Cup win and as a red hot Fav he's playing cat and mouse with no hopers back in the field when the leaders are crawling in front.

Ballarat April 24, I'm Smouldering (Gavin Lang) 1-3 Fav, tucks in 6th of 8 in the running line, makes no effort at all to improve his position with the leaders dawdling, closes late for the 3rd. Not a peep from the Stewards.

Fast forward a week and racing for 25K, I'm Smouldering (Gavin Lang) around them from the second line to sit parked as soon as they settled. Not a peep from the stewards and no COT.

Three of the four examples above (this past fortnight) resulted in the defeat of prohibitive short priced public elects. All of which were basically ignored by Stewards.

When similar occurs at the Gallops, Stewards are all over it. Alford and Lang might be the best drivers in Victoria but the best jockeys in Victoria wouldn't get away with it. Jockeys would be reprimanded for their lack of initiative.

I missed a chunk of Aussie harness from 2003 - 2012 working abroad. 10+ years ago those policing the sport were far more on the ball than this current mob.

The sport has a credibility problem from the ground up. It needs to start there.

[cyclone george]

One thing I did miss - integrity is vitally important ,but don't think it improves betting turnover. When the blue magic saga was going on in Vic turnover went up about 6 per cent , which means exposure of any kind can help. For f&$@ sake people put money in poker machines. I am also a big fan of driver colors- sex sells we've got a lot of good looking girls driving ,let's get a following of the blokes that follows drivers as well just promote the whole circus not have of it.

[Messenger]

You are right Ash - we need young ideas. I am one of the oldies (young retiree ;)) at the trots but I am talking day meetings and you would expect most younger people to be at work. I am not interested in facebook, twitter, instagram etc but I know that is where we need to be.

[Lucky Camilla"s Lovechild]

I hear Bill Vlahos isn't doing much nowadays. Now that bloke could generate capital! ;)

[HaroldParker]

and I cringe every time I see or hear that ridiculous "we will trot you" advertisement.

A carrot for those who wear flannos over their Rose Tattoo T-Shirts to lose their pay in the on course pokies.

When it was released I heard someone mention that it was to attract a younger audience. If that person or those who bought into it believe that, they don't have a clue.

[Lucky Camilla"s Lovechild]

and I cringe every time I see or hear that ridiculous "we will trot you" advertisement.

A carrot for those who wear flannos over their Rose Tattoo T-Shirts to lose their pay in the on course pokies.

When it was released I heard someone mention that it was to attract a younger audience. If that person or those who bought into it believe that, they don't have a clue.
+2

[cyclone george]

Hey bob you can ride gallopers in Vic ,have ten grand on the fav ( your on second fav) get ten months ,,but it was his first bet remember . That the integrity we should be fighting for.

[Njcstables]

I will say it again.....the answer is NOT changing how we race, it is about exposure to a wider audience, get more people involved, as Phil outlined in his earlier post, we are targeting our game to an ever shrinking market of participants, participants are the lifeblood of this game, everthing else follows, it has been the case from day one when trotting went from racing your carthorse to town and back to formalised racing on set circuits, the game has thrived or otherwise on participation levels...turnover, prizemoney,foal numbers,yearling prices, etc,etc will all grow when participation grows.....participant growth will not occur, until exposure levels improve.

cheers,
Dan

Danno, you are absolutely spot on.

[HaroldParker]

Someone commented on it within this thread but the location of the main track in NSW and Victoria is a big problem. In regards to on track attendance, Menangle and Melton aren't in the City and what is there to do afterwards ?

Trying not to be a snob here : ) but it's a far different crowd at Menangle that it was at Harold Park, same for Melton than at Moonee Valley.

Go to Gloucester Park on any Friday night and you'll see the difference.

[HaroldParker]

Hey bob you can ride gallopers in Vic ,have ten grand on the fav ( your on second fav) get ten months ,,but it was his first bet remember . That the integrity we should be fighting for.

Only 10K ? laying Chilli Palmer is far more profitable : )

[HaroldParker]

First race at Menangle on Saturday night is 4.55pm. It's 10 degrees colder there in Winter and 10 degrees warmer in Summer.

Every Friday night my mates and I would get to the first for Harold Park for 7pm from Pennant Hills (car or train) and kick on nearby after the last.

What young blokes or Ladies is making there way to Menangle for a 4.55pm kick off unless you live around the corner and have no thought of doing anything afterwards.

Another problem is, Harness Racing just doesn't have the same atmosphere in the day as it does at night.

I couldn't make the one and a half hour express from the City to Menangle on Len Smith day but I hear it was very quiet out there.

[Triple V]

Leigh,
I'm not saying lets sit our collective thumbs, more saying that our proble lies in the ever shrinking number of participants, be they owners, trainers, breeders,drivers and punters or any combination of the afforementioned.
This silly game we play had it's origins and was developed by its PARTICIPANTS.

The TAB turnover will grow when we have more participants because that is how this game has always been relevant...Little Johnny from up the road has a horse going OK and gets a following, young Mary does the same, etc etc. This is not and never was the sport of kings, it is and always was the horse racing caper of tradesmen, publicans, farmers and "ordinary folk".

In my humble opinion, therein lies a large part of our problem, we have forgotten who we are and who we should be projecting ourselves toward.

Cheers,
Dan

VVV- Beautifully put Dan. That should be printed out, framed and hung upon the office doors of many an Industry Administrator, sadly so very few if any of which are actually participants.

[brent_L]

I have no idea on how to improve participation but surely out of town (agree wholeheartedly with Bob #61) metro tracks that are hours out of the way are a massive setback in attracting folks to give them a taste of the trots (do love the syndication idea however).
In regard to improving turnover, the hotshot races in Brisbane this arvo don't really appear to be the answer IMO. I have mentioned somewhere before that punters need to be able to identify their runners(s) more easily plus not have to guess which track does/not have a sprint lane.....make them all the same (won't bother me either way, I will still be punting).
Finally, a question for those a lot smarter than I. Could/would overall turnover increase, if like the gallops' Saturday arvo, we had our own time-slot dedicated to metro racing. I mentioned this in the recent survey and questioned would Sunday arvo/twilight be viable. As someone mentioned before this could include specialist coverage on Sky2. I know where I'd be if I could watch/bet Melton, Menangle, Albion, Globe & Gloucester together in one block of time! Not at the movies with the missus that's for sure.

[Toohard]

Very interesting thread and it is clear that everyone posting is wanting the best for harness racing.


For what it is worth, I think TV advertising and exposure on news or other TV programs is a great way to reignite the memories of attending the trots in the glory days. Many of my colleagues who see random pictures I have of my horses will comment "oh, I remember going to Gloucester park as a kid, I absolutely loved it" and I think TV 'reminders' of this is a great way to reinitiate their interest and the big events (take inters night at Gloucester Park a few years ago) demonstrate that this still works and that the trots resonates with the community. The tricky part is getting people interested in the industry for more than just one night a year and, in my view, a good way to do this is through an ownership interest. The problem is, most people (including me a few years back) have absolutely no idea how to get involved or are worried about being screwed over financially (again, like what happened to me a few years back).


A few of the clubs have got 'club horses' and this is a great idea - but perhaps it only gets exposure to those already involved in the industry. I think though, each of us can play a small part that collectively could make a big difference by just introducing or reintroducing people to our great sport.


As an example, a few weeks back there was a charity quiz night I was involved in. Prizes were the usual (a nights accommodation, or a bottle of wine or a voucher etc.) but the winning team also got a 5% share in a standardbred. Thanks to the trainer, it is being trained on a 50/50 basis so they are not going to be out-of-pocket. Thanks to the agent, commission was reduced and thanks to the existing owners who agreed to give up just a small % each etc (contributions from everyone involved)...


The winning table consisted of 5 people, none of whom had ever owned a horse, but:
1 grew up going to Gloucester Park and loved it
1 always wanted a 'pony' as a kid and says she is now effectively living that dream
1 didn't even know horses could race "with a cart on their back"
and all 5 of them are emailing me explaining how exciting it is and how they love telling their friends and family about it etc. etc. and the interest in our sport becomes exponential. Whether or not they ever get another horse is still to be seen, but it can only be good for the sport.


And, as an owner in the sport, there is nothing better than sharing the experience with others - both the highs and lows!!!


To clarify, I am not suggesting we all put our hands in our pocket and give everyone free shares in our horses, I am just suggesting that this personal 'marketing' of our sport is something we can do ourselves without relying on HRA or the state bodies or the clubs.....

That's awesome!! Great work!!

[strong persuader]

I sincerely hope that the administrators are reading this, the suggestions contained within this thread could just be the salvation of our industry.

I agree with 90% of them, I cannot come at the sprint races sorry, maybe a little too traditional in that regard. :) How about whilst we have their attention with a 'sprint' race, how about we get them to ask the drivers about their change of strategy in the following race, a mile and half standing start. :)

Here is a random thought that has been kicking around in my head for 15 years or so courtesy of Gordon Campbell :) Why can't we have a mobile with handicaps, using technology to create a visible light beam at the appropriate distances.

Perhaps we could adopt the motto of "Back to the Future". Return what made the sport great, with an eye on the modern ways to do it.

[thepacingman]

Interesting thread this one. Some good ideas.

As for Phil's comment about mobile handicaps. They had the angled barrier starts at Albion Park some years ago when Rod Osborne was chief steward. Were scrapped after a short period. Not popular at all with participants and punters. I think some of these races might have been held at MV as well.

As for betting more preferential draws. Good example Newcastle Derby the other nite. Bling It On draws the pole starts $1.10. Stifles betting. If it gets barrier 10 might be $1.50 and put more interest into the race and the betting. There are many instances where this happens. If you have these situations because of a RBD at least keep the race out of the quaddie. Get some value into it.

Totally agree with others regarding Melton and Menangle being basically country tracks. You will not attract new people to the sport at these venues. You are only preaching to the converted. But what's done is done and I'm not sure how you solve this.

[Messenger]

http://www.smh.com.au/business/tabcorp-boss-david-attenborough-blasts-online-bookmakers-20140506-37uo4.html

Tabcorp boss blasts online bookies (.... over their small contribution to the racing industry)

This is making me think that providing entertainment and getting people back to the tracks is most important
Melton only covers one side of Melbourne, if we cannot have a city track (too late now) can we develop maybe Yarra Glen and Cranbourne or ? to cover more points from the city (as well as capturing the townsfolk of our big country tracks of course)

http://www.smh.com.au/business/tabcorp-boss-david-attenborough-blasts-online-bookmakers-20140506-37uo4.html

[Lucky Camilla"s Lovechild]

http://www.smh.com.au/business/tabcorp-boss-david-attenborough-blasts-online-bookmakers-20140506-37uo4.html

Tabcorp boss blasts online bookies (.... over their small contribution to the racing industry)

This is making me think that providing entertainment and getting people back to the tracks is most important
Melton only covers one side of Melbourne, if we cannot have a city track (too late now) can we develop maybe Yarra Glen and Cranbourne or ? to cover more points from the city (as well as capturing the townsfolk of our big country tracks of course)

http://www.smh.com.au/business/tabcorp-boss-david-attenborough-blasts-online-bookmakers-20140506-37uo4.html
Developing Cranbourne further would be a great idea. It is a huge growth area out that way. I'm not sure what there is in the way of public transport from the city out to Melton. Maybe someone knows. Does it need improving or looking at?

[barney]

Have read this topic and everyone had good ideas and agree nothing better to get interest is to get people involved, syndicates were way to go.Have organised a few in the past and have tried gain just recently to no avail as the sport has at the present moment got a smell about it like it or deny it it is true.
Went to harness .org.au this morning and read story about Dean Braun having 3 chances to upset Smoken up.Go to stewards wrap and 2nd story there is about his positive and case being adjourned until 30/5.
Honestly how can people have any faith in the sport when things like this happen.
Nsw seems to be on the right track now and other states need to follow suit to rebuild faith in sport and help it get rid of the reputation of being corrupt.

[Danielle]

This is a very specialised area - media and marketting. How to ramp up the image of the sport needs professional advice from people who are qualified and expert at giving such advice. I would recommend that the industry invests in professional marketting consultants to make an informed report with key recommendations for the board and membership. Sadly, many industries have dwindled because of poor marketting, research and/or investment decisions. I can tell you as a social scientist, we know that the most successful businesses engage in ongoing research and development to ensure that their product is ahead of the market and provides what the market needs. Is Harness Racing Australia engaged in ongoing Quality marketing and research. I underline the word quality - because there are some people who do such consultancy work, however, they are not suitably qualified or skilled to do what is needed.

[Mighty Atom]

My incursion into "trotting'' as it was called in those days occurred way back in 1967 when at the age of 17 I attended the Interdominions in Perth which was an unbelievable event. The interest generated by media saturation was one of the reasons a huge crowd was in attendance. We are talking horses of the calibre of First Lee ,Tongue Twister from N.S.W., Goulburn View ( second in final ) from Vic, Robin Dundee and Waitaki Hanover from N.Z. ,Minuteman, Bon Adios from S.A., the great Halwes from Tassy and Blue Pennant, Binshaw ( winner of final ) and Coneeda (third in final) from W.A. and 7 other interstate horses. I know that trotting was held in higher regard back then but media advertising was a lot more prevalent and I think more advertising is needed today particularly in all major harness events (not just skyracing ads where you are preaching to the converted) if you want people on track. The fact that so many interstate and N.Z. horses were in W.A. before the advent of chartered air flights shows how important the I.D. was on the pacing calender. Back to my story.........I continued for the next few years as a punter until I considered it a mug's game but my love of the horses and racing steered me towards owning my own horse, I was not interested in syndication as I wanted to be more personally involved. I purchased a city horse I had seen racing and sent him to trainer friend of mine. After a time he decided to cut back on his team and as my bloke was just running around with the field he returned the horse to me. I was in a dilemma what to do so I decided to take out an owner/trainer permit without having any experience in training pacers. As I considered myself reasonably intelligent and a lovely horse that taught me a lot we never looked back. Under my training he improved out of sight. Here lies another dilemma in getting people interested in trotting/pacing, back then as an owner I was able to obtain a trainers permit on a fairly limited knowledge of training I'd be surprised if that is the case now and it appears the only alternative is syndication with a million other owners to reduce training fees. I feel the stewards now have take control of horses out of the trainers hands to some degree in an attempt to make it more professional and at the same time taken the fun element out the equation. Burgeoning costs is another show stopper many years ago it was the battlers sport where any person could have a horse or two in their back yard - not any more. The solution to these problems I don't know but one thing I am certain of is that city racing has to return to Saturday nights not Friday especially at Melton if you want people back at the track. Who wants to rush home from work on a Friday night and then race off to the track? - not many.

[gutwagon]

YES Rod, must get city racing back to Saturday nights. Couldn't agree more.
As for melton they should run free shuttle busses to and from the city on race nights. Its way to expensive to get a taxi there and to hard to get public transport.
Another thing not helping is that there are just too many races to bet on nowadays , you can bet on races somewhere in the world all day and all night !

[Amlin]

Without doubt social media is the way forward, but what we are seeing at Victorian level no doubt needs some work. We do see pictures of the winners after each event at Melton but they are almost always blurry, clearly captured on a mobile phone camera. And by the way, how many people photographed in the stalls after a race with their horse have inappropriate footwear on!


Agree regarding syndications, have seen numerous examples where there have been many happy owners, but also recall having 50 individual owners of one horse proving an inconvenience for the board as they had to register 50 new owners in the computer!


Horses aren't household names like they used to be. For those on Facebook, below is something I have had a bit to do with which just shows how people will warm to the right campaign to positively promote our sport in social media.


Take notice next time you are in a waiting room somewhere - people are always on their phones, and I reckon they are on Facebook or similar, not looking up topics on a search engine.


https://www.facebook.com/popularalm


Regarding Cranbourne, the facilities in place are more than adequate for a Saturday night type crowd in terms of dining room, lawn area etc. And the population is out in this area too, though they won't commit to getting involved in an activity that is only on occasionally. It needs to be say the first Saturday of the month, so everyone knows that's when we go to the trots.


You would be relying on patrons in cars though as the train takes a good hour from the city and then probably a half hour walk from the station to the track, so this places Cranbourne in a similar position to Melton. It would be quicker to catch a country train to Warragul where the track is 500 metres from the station and the population growth is projected just as high as Melton or Cranbourne in future years.


In order to capture a city and inner suburban audience and bring them back to the track (like when they used to go to the Valley) you would need a track built in the inner east/south east, no further out than say Oakleigh.


Ironically there is a training track in Oakleigh still - perhaps a deal could be done with the council to develop this and surrounding land into a second, true "metro" track?

[Lucky Camilla"s Lovechild]

Kyle, I dont think we can support 2 metro tracks in Victoria. And besides , I dont think Oakleigh council will tie up crown land in harness racing, when they can flog it off for housing development if they get crash strapped. We really needed to develope the showgrounds further, but I guess it would have meant getting in bed with the Agricultural society, and then it may have been the same scenario as it was with Moonee Valley racing club.

[Mitch]

In my opinion there are 5 key things that need to be addressed collectively by all state bodies, endorsed and supported by HRA for harness racing to sustain its rightful place. I have summarised them below.

1. World Class Integrity. This includes but is not limited to;
Comprehensive drug testing regime including out of competition testing.
Introduction of transparent levels for certain substances.
Consistent enforcement of race tactics and driving capability (including the COT rule and how it is applied).
Restricted access to race day stalls to licensed persons and properly identified owners only at all venues Australia wide.
Introduction of relegation rule.

2. Improved Professionalism Across the Industry. This includes but is not limited to;
Introduction of a premium drivers licence for professional drivers only. Limited by state and capability tested.
Introduction of professional drivers only meetings in all states.
Dress code for trainers & drivers at all TAB meetings.
Strict rules re use of mobile phones and other communication devices on course by licensed drivers competing on race day.
Investment in youth development programs.
National Trainer/Driver development centre.

3. Programming & Alignment. This includes but is not limited to;
All states to align to either Friday or Saturday night for feature Metropolitan meeting with 30mins between races at all venues.
Better coordination across all states in programming of feature events, especially juvenile races & mares races.
Ongoing review and adjustment to the balance of conditioning racing based on current horse population.
Improved programming for fillies & mares to prolong racing careers and to earn genuine black type status.
Ownership of the PM time slot. Minimise TAB meetings during the daytime, leave this space for non TAB events.
Introduction of a Sunday grass track racing calendar in eastern states by 2016.

4. National Consolidation of Services. This includes but it not limited to;
Creation of RISA style services centre for Harness Racing to remove state duplication for administration functions such a registration, racing etc.
Complete review of all governing body functions and realign duplicated functions into a national centre

5. New Minimum Standard for Infrastructure & Facilities. This includes but is not limited to;
State by state review of tracks and facilities. Reduction required.
Greater accountability placed on clubs re general standards of all services.
Free entry for owners with horses engaged for all meetings Australia wide.
Free entry to general public for every meeting outside 1 nominated feature meeting per club each year.

There are more things required under each area and plenty of detail to be determined and agreed but hopefully the summary above gives a reasonable insight into my point of view.

If we are able to achieve the above then, and only then, will we have a product that is worth investing in a comprehensive marketing, attraction and recruitment program. Investing without the above is pointless as the product isn't good enough or consistent enough.

I was once taught a very good lesson:
'great execution will always make up for poor marketing but great marketing will never make up for poor execution.'

The above will also create a wagering product that is more desirable to punters, big & small.

Harness racing needs to be rebuilt brick by brick starting with the core fundamentals that make a great product. It requires ruthless intent and application of a clear set of goals collectively by the state bodies, ably supported by HRA.

It can happen.

[Messenger]

I like your thinking Mitch. Realizing that we must get the execution right first cannot be overstated.

A couple of small points. I understand that night slots are preferable but I am worried about making day meetings non TAB as I am not sure they would survive and I would miss nice sunny days at the trots. Of course this also means a lot of country tracks would have to light up or die. Most of us want a shorter time between races but I wonder whether the TAB has something to do with this too.

There are a lot of cluey people putting valuable thought into this question. I think I will email HRA CEO Andrew Kelly again to let him know that this thread compliments his recent survey - I did not receive any acknowledgement of my first email (that to me is something that should be mandatory for any well run administration)

[Amlin]

Agree Leigh - the remaining land at Oakleigh as an example is too small anyway, and the present board will be flat out paying for what has been developed at Melton anyway.


While the location of Melton is on the right side of town for the participants, the higher amount of disposable income is on the opposite side of town. A dilemma well beyond the control of our sport, and something we are stuck with. Melbourne is a big place, and potential new owners from the Eastern suburbs won't travel out to the other side of town to watch their horses race in peak hour traffic for a 5:30 start on a Friday.


Regarding Mitch's views on where the future direction should be headed for the sport, these are the kinds of strategies that should be being discussed and implemented at state and national level but are the various boards thinking of intelligent ideas like these? If not, what are they discussing for the future at their monthly meetings?

[mightymo]

In my opinion there are 5 key things that need to be addressed collectively by all state bodies, endorsed and supported by HRA for harness racing to sustain its rightful place. I have summarised them below.

1. World Class Integrity. This includes but is not limited to;
Comprehensive drug testing regime including out of competition testing.
Introduction of transparent levels for certain substances.
Consistent enforcement of race tactics and driving capability (including the COT rule and how it is applied).
Restricted access to race day stalls to licensed persons and properly identified owners only at all venues Australia wide.
Introduction of relegation rule.

2. Improved Professionalism Across the Industry. This includes but is not limited to;
Introduction of a premium drivers licence for professional drivers only. Limited by state and capability tested.
Introduction of professional drivers only meetings in all states.
Dress code for trainers & drivers at all TAB meetings.
Strict rules re use of mobile phones and other communication devices on course by licensed drivers competing on race day.
Investment in youth development programs.
National Trainer/Driver development centre.

3. Programming & Alignment. This includes but is not limited to;
All states to align to either Friday or Saturday night for feature Metropolitan meeting with 30mins between races at all venues.
Better coordination across all states in programming of feature events, especially juvenile races & mares races.
Ongoing review and adjustment to the balance of conditioning racing based on current horse population.
Improved programming for fillies & mares to prolong racing careers and to earn genuine black type status.
Ownership of the PM time slot. Minimise TAB meetings during the daytime, leave this space for non TAB events.
Introduction of a Sunday grass track racing calendar in eastern states by 2016.

4. National Consolidation of Services. This includes but it not limited to;
Creation of RISA style services centre for Harness Racing to remove state duplication for administration functions such a registration, racing etc.
Complete review of all governing body functions and realign duplicated functions into a national centre

5. New Minimum Standard for Infrastructure & Facilities. This includes but is not limited to;
State by state review of tracks and facilities. Reduction required.
Greater accountability placed on clubs re general standards of all services.
Free entry for owners with horses engaged for all meetings Australia wide.
Free entry to general public for every meeting outside 1 nominated feature meeting per club each year.

There are more things required under each area and plenty of detail to be determined and agreed but hopefully the summary above gives a reasonable insight into my point of view.

If we are able to achieve the above then, and only then, will we have a product that is worth investing in a comprehensive marketing, attraction and recruitment program. Investing without the above is pointless as the product isn't good enough or consistent enough.

I was once taught a very good lesson:
'great execution will always make up for poor marketing but great marketing will never make up for poor execution.'

The above will also create a wagering product that is more desirable to punters, big & small.

Harness racing needs to be rebuilt brick by brick starting with the core fundamentals that make a great product. It requires ruthless intent and application of a clear set of goals collectively by the state bodies, ably supported by HRA.

It can happen.

I think you need to get into racing administration...we need exactly these kinds of ideas and the execution of them

[Viv Strangman]

+1

[Messenger]

CEO Andrew Kelly has been interstate but he got back to me this afternoon and said he will be bringing the thread to the attention of the survey Working Party next week.

[HarnessFan]

Hi Mitch
Your suggestion regarding the consolidation of services is an absolute must.
I am certain the savings will tally well into the millions.
There is an unbelievable amount of wastage in replicating across all states functions such as prizemoney distribution, driver fee distribution, ownership transfers, horse registration ...
I have been pushing this since Australia developed a national database.
This suggestion may just get traction but it needs a lot of pressure from participants as statewide legislation is strangling our wonderful industry.

[cyclone george]

Mitch while I'll agree with most of your points ,the thought of closing down tracks has been our biggest mistake in Victoria. About ten years ago hrv decided in there great wisdom that the punting dollar was the be all of everything and as long as people were betting on there phone accounts there would be always plenty of money but what they forgot was patrons generally end up owner who bring there friends and so on . Traralgon is the classic example ,that area now has over 200000 people ,no trainers left,galloping track( we're the old 800 track was) have picnic meetings every couple of months and average 5-10,000 people. if you think hrv were interested in patrons why would they build a track with a parade ring behind a stable complex,no roof over a grand stand,and function rooms that don't even face the track ,shit weren't they keen on getting people to the track. The cost of lack of participation in small country towns far outweighs the small costs of maintaining a few tracks each year. The little brown jug is on the worst track I've seen,run down facility's ,but is the best day I've spent on a race track maybe they should close it down.

[Mitch]

A couple of small points. I understand that night slots are preferable but I am worried about making day meetings non TAB as I am not sure they would survive and I would miss nice sunny days at the trots. Of course this also means a lot of country tracks would have to light up or die. Most of us want a shorter time between races but I wonder whether the TAB has something to do with this too.

I don't mean get rid of all TAB meetings throughout the day however like the thoroughbreds have Wednesday as their mid week metro meetings and Saturday is their main metro meet every week without fail, harness racing should have Tuesday or Wednesday night as the main mid week meeting in each state and Friday or Saturday night at the main metro meeting in each state every week without fail. These meetings should all be night meetings in my opinion.

All states must work together and negotiate hard with Tabcorp to get 30mins between races where possible and explore the commercials on some dedicated Sky 2 action.

[Mitch]

Mitch while I'll agree with most of your points ,the thought of closing down tracks has been our biggest mistake in Victoria. About ten years ago hrv decided in there great wisdom that the punting dollar was the be all of everything and as long as people were betting on there phone accounts there would be always plenty of money but what they forgot was patrons generally end up owner who bring there friends and so on . Traralgon is the classic example ,that area now has over 200000 people ,no trainers left,galloping track( we're the old 800 track was) have picnic meetings every couple of months and average 5-10,000 people. if you think hrv were interested in patrons why would they build a track with a parade ring behind a stable complex,no roof over a grand stand,and function rooms that don't even face the track ,shit weren't they keen on getting people to the track. The cost of lack of participation in small country towns far outweighs the small costs of maintaining a few tracks each year. The little brown jug is on the worst track I've seen,run down facility's ,but is the best day I've spent on a race track maybe they should close it down.

We need to be smart about which tracks we close but unfortunately we simply can't afford to keep them all. I take your point about the Little Brown Jug but that's an exception not the rule. If we have a manageable track landscape across each state all with an appropriate standard of facilities and track quality, you can then tailor marketing and attraction strategies based on the local demography & target audience to maximise on course attendance.

We need to maintain a good balance of 800m, 1000m & >1000m tracks but we cannot keep them all.

[Messenger]

I cannot imagine which tracks you would close down my way Mitch - you obviously are not a believer in the strong case mounted on this thread that closing tracks loses us participants and snowballs on. The only thing I would say is that with 100 days between meetings sometimes (I do not know why this is the case at Stawell at the moment) the tracks are definitely underutilized for racing at times. Hamilton and Horsham are very good tracks now, Ararat has lights for night racing as does Terang. Charlton is strong and popular ......
I notice you are from Sydney and although originally a city boy too I notice that things are different in the country. I visit country towns in the region just because I have never been there and want to put a picture to the name. Most of these towns are a shadow of their former selves but you might find they still have a Showgrounds of all things eg Coleraine that I visited yesterday. Infrastructure like tracks and showgrounds would seem to be maintained on a shoe string and are part of the fibre of the town. There is no other purpose for the land they are occupying - generally there is an abundance of land in country towns. If we lose the town as well as the track we are in danger of becoming a Melton and Menangle code one day instead of a national code.

[Mitch]

I cannot imagine which tracks you would close down my way Mitch - you obviously are not a believer in the strong case mounted on this thread that closing tracks loses us participants and snowballs on. The only thing I would say is that with 100 days between meetings sometimes (I do not know why this is the case at Stawell at the moment) the tracks are definitely underutilized for racing at times. Hamilton and Horsham are very good tracks now, Ararat has lights for night racing as does Terang. Charlton is strong and popular ......
I notice you are from Sydney and although originally a city boy too I notice that things are different in the country. I visit country towns in the region just because I have never been there and want to put a picture to the name. Most of these towns are a shadow of their former selves but you might find they still have a Showgrounds of all things eg Coleraine that I visited yesterday. Infrastructure like tracks and showgrounds would seem to be maintained on a shoe string and are part of the fibre of the town. There is no other purpose for the land they are occupying - generally there is an abundance of land in country towns. If we lose the town as well as the track we are in danger of becoming a Melton and Menangle code one day instead of a national code.

Hi Kevin,

The statement 'closing tracks loses us participants' is a generalisation. I am not for a minute suggesting a mass closure of tracks. I would encourage a robust review and analysis, by state, to ensure SMART decisions are made. I don't want to bore you with a long winded detailed explanation of how this can be done but it most certainly can be and to the benefit of the industry.

Sensible consolidation is a fact of life in many industries these days, harness racing is not exempt. Re-building this sport is probably more about making unpopular decisions than it is popular ones.

Mitch.

[Danno]

Hi Kevin,

The statement 'closing tracks loses us participants' is a generalisation. I am not for a minute suggesting a mass closure of tracks. I would encourage a robust review and analysis, by state, to ensure SMART decisions are made. I don't want to bore you with a long winded detailed explanation of how this can be done but it most certainly can be and to the benefit of the industry.

Sensible consolidation is a fact of life in many industries these days, harness racing is not exempt. Re-building this sport is probably more about making unpopular decisions than it is popular ones.

Mitch.

G'day Mitch,

always like to see your thoughts expressed on the forum, you are a thinker and like the rest of us passionate about the game, I agree with some of the points you have made on this thread, but I don't think you can accurately say 'closing tracks loses us participants' is a generalisation. It is a fact some of our older posters have witnessed this very same thing a few years ago, some "SMART" people conducted "a robust review and analysis " carried out a "Sensible consolidation" removed the racing licences from many tracks and told us "we simply can't afford to keep them all".

Please forgive me mate if you get the impression I'm a bit cynical, but we have been down this road before and it had devastating impacts on participation levels in the sport/industry, to the point that we now struggle to fill fields everywhere and our market share in the racing gambling dollar is shrinking well below the other two codes.

We were once a true competitor for the thoroughbreds and now even the dishlickers are going stonger than us.

Make some enquiries about how you get a dog trainers licence Mitch, the process is nowhere near as convoluted as getting a harness trainers licence, which reminds me that is another idiotic debacle that needs to go, while you are at it ask anyone who has had to go through the "tech course" to get the harness licence and they will tell you they had to endure being "educated" by people that have never had a harness horse in their care in their lives!!! Talk about make it difficult for people to enter the game! and all for absoluteley NO GAIN! That shambles is all in the name of making the game more "professional".

We all want the game to prosper Mitch and we will all have differing ideas about the ways in which to do that.

New ideas that make us more relevant with a changing market place together with the knowledge that time and experience has given us will hopefully combine to save our struggling game, but lets not make the same mistakes all over again, the sport/industry needs more participants not less and anything that hinders new participants entering our game or pushes existing people away should be given the punt.

Cheers,
Dan

[jackthepunter]

These are the things I would change if given the chance.

I would bring in drivers colours why? Because someone has to be the stars of the sport. You Need to able to promote the sport and give people and fans somone to follow. Its works fantasticly well in usa and other parts oversee, where drivers have fan days , sign auotgraphs talk to fans and have a human connection. Drivers need their own colours so they can have their own brand and get sponsorship. Its like any afl or nrl team with a star player, people know their buy their colours, and if their were to change colours every week their brand and sponsors would mean nothing.

I would ban stand start racing. I know its part of tradition in harness racing but its messy and to me makes the sport look unprofessional. There is no right way for standing starts, their tryed many ways and none work.They all most always run late causing prombles for all the other races program. All most always a horse will gallop and ruined its chane in the first 20 meters. And a lot of the time they cause interference to other runers also ruining their chances. Thats why I wont bet on them.

I would make all horses start on the front row like menangle. Because the tracks are so narrow down here in victoria we can properly only get 8 across instead of 10.
Where would I want this? Because every horse get its chane to go forward, there very little interference. And if a horse is gallop they just go without it. Instead of a driver deliberately crashing into a horse on the second row to cause a false start. And again stoping the race from runing late.

I would have all races with only a 20min apart, so the enterainment keeps going and the night is not stop start. The reality is a lot of punters as soon as they win look to put it staight on the next race. Im sure this is one reason the greyhounds have had a massive increase in market share because of the 20min gap. This also means you can shorten the night by a good couple of hours. I would also only have one meeting a day or night with a 12 race program. So all the best trainers and drivers can attend. Shorely this would help with turn over. Also it would stop drivers, driveing at dangerous high speeds trying to get to 2 meetings in a day. I'm amazed there hasn't been any bad accident.

The praticpants(Trainers,Drivers,Owners) should be able to vote who is the ceo and board. They should be only given a 4 year term. Then be put up again. If their doing a good job they get voted back in, if not have another 3 people to choose from. As it stand now practicpants have NO say in how the industry is run. Been from victoria, I think we need an immedaite clean out of ceo , board ,steweards and start again. Their had 10 years and to say the results have been disapointing is an understatement.

I would get the tab to fix their app and website its so slow. Surely the industry is losing millions of dollars a year because of this. As the tab is the only source of income for the sport. today if punters don't get what they want staight away they simple bet with another site that gives very little back to the industry.

Their needs to be massive amounts spend on marketing. Outside of the industry no one knows it existes. You could walk down the main stree of melbourne or sydney all day asking everyone what harness racing is, and whats the name of a trainer or driver and I would been stunned if anyone could answer you. Thats not good enougn its a great sport and everyone should know about it.

[cyclone george]

Jack the punter. - great post could not have said it better. When they tried to bring drivers colors in a few years ago the trainers cracked the shits and hrv backed down,but now they have all these promo colors for different causes and haven't heard a ripple of discontent, won't effect trainers who drive there own. Owners who have there own colors shouldn't complain if turnover goes up even 1 % they'll end up with more in there pocket. I can't remember the last time a trainer promoted our sport ( lance does his best with some colourful quotes) but who else. Go to nz yearling sales and all the big stables ,studs have Marques promoting there business and encouraging new owners. Driver colors give you a new race to bet on every meeting with a drivers market ,drivers and there colors in the form is so easy to follow. I would say the majority of once a week punters generally just like backing there favorite driver. HRA are the only orgisisation that doesn't believe sex sells ,I am sure of that because with the amount of goog looking female partication in the trots now it should be simple to market. Hrv if you haven't got the guts to do it you shouldn't be there because your not doing the best for the sport.

[Toohard]

pfft marketing..easy.. go trots, watch Smoken Up. Awesome!!

[Amlin]

Look forward to hearing from you Cyclone about the Country Clubs meeting tomorrow - hopefully you will bring back some positive news for us forum followers on where the sport is going in Vic!

[Mitch]

G'day Mitch,

always like to see your thoughts expressed on the forum, you are a thinker and like the rest of us passionate about the game, I agree with some of the points you have made on this thread, but I don't think you can accurately say 'closing tracks loses us participants' is a generalisation. It is a fact some of our older posters have witnessed this very same thing a few years ago, some "SMART" people conducted "a robust review and analysis " carried out a "Sensible consolidation" removed the racing licences from many tracks and told us "we simply can't afford to keep them all".

Please forgive me mate if you get the impression I'm a bit cynical, but we have been down this road before and it had devastating impacts on participation levels in the sport/industry, to the point that we now struggle to fill fields everywhere and our market share in the racing gambling dollar is shrinking well below the other two codes.

We were once a true competitor for the thoroughbreds and now even the dishlickers are going stonger than us.

Make some enquiries about how you get a dog trainers licence Mitch, the process is nowhere near as convoluted as getting a harness trainers licence, which reminds me that is another idiotic debacle that needs to go, while you are at it ask anyone who has had to go through the "tech course" to get the harness licence and they will tell you they had to endure being "educated" by people that have never had a harness horse in their care in their lives!!! Talk about make it difficult for people to enter the game! and all for absoluteley NO GAIN! That shambles is all in the name of making the game more "professional".

We all want the game to prosper Mitch and we will all have differing ideas about the ways in which to do that.

New ideas that make us more relevant with a changing market place together with the knowledge that time and experience has given us will hopefully combine to save our struggling game, but lets not make the same mistakes all over again, the sport/industry needs more participants not less and anything that hinders new participants entering our game or pushes existing people away should be given the punt.

Cheers,
Dan

Dan,

I don't think you or Kevin are being cynical at all. You have very sound reasons for your opinion and much more experience than I do. Track closures wouldn't be top of my list and in fact they may not happen but I would like to see a review of track locations, facilities & infrastructure and catchment areas conducted by a select group of people. If this review was able to find a better landscape than the current and that meant some closures, then so be it. I agree that in the past some very poor decisions have been made regarding track closures and we should never make the same mistake twice.

Another point I would like to add that I missed from my original post is better prize money distribution across age groups. Interestingly the 2012/13 season was the lowest for 2yo starters to foals for the last 5 years and the greatest drop in horses earning prize money was in the 5yo age bracket (-12.7%). However we still continue to throw the kitchen sink at juvenile features and I am seeing more and more 4yo+ races get little or no increased support.

Personally I think we over invest in some of our juvenile/futurity races and don't put enough into feature 4yo+ races, particularly for mares. Juvenile feature racing is great to watch and most certainly plays a pivotal role in driving wagering turnover but whether the APG and Breeders Crown are worth $300k or $200k isn't going to materially change who does and doesn't compete in my opinion. Whilst me must maintain a strong juvenile feature race calendar supported with attractive purses, we must also better spread the prize money distribution for 4yos and open age pacers, especially mares!!

Note: I am not a breeder so I have no vested interest in promoting more support for mares. I just think it's the right thing to do.

Mitch.

[jackthepunter]

pfft marketing..easy.. go trots, watch Smoken Up. Awesome!!

Toohard with all due respect Smoken up has been a great champion. But if lance and owners had a "horse first mentally" they would have done the right thing by the horse and retired him 6 months ago or more. IMO the horse should have been retired as group one horse in a group one race. Not been pushed around week in week out for the sake of it in free for allers. I mean what more do their want of the horse? His won 3.5 million. Properly the same as 10 million in gallopers.

And lance knows it. He just doesn't want to stop being in the lime light. Look at the way his driveing him, Tonite a 32.2 first quarter, 30.5 second quarter. He would never even have worked him that slow in track work. And he only fell in . Two years ago he would have beat those horses by 3 or 4 lenghts.

To make exuses his a gelding or he stills wants to do it are a joke. No top sportsmen wants to retire their have to bee told. You only have to look at punch drunk boxers.

[aussiebreno]

Toohard with all due respect Smoken up has been a great champion. But if lance and owners had a "horse first mentally" they would have done the right thing by the horse and retired him 6 months ago or more. IMO the horse should have been retired as group one horse in a group one race. Not been pushed around week in week out for the sake of it in free for allers. I mean what more do their want of the horse? His won 3.5 million. Properly the same as 10 million in gallopers.

And lance knows it. He just doesn't want to stop being in the lime light. Look at the way his driveing him, Tonite a 32.2 first quarter, 30.5 second quarter. He would never even have worked him that slow in track work. And he only fell in . Two years ago he would have beat those horses by 3 or 4 lenghts.

To make exuses his a gelding or he stills wants to do it are a joke. No top sportsmen wants to retire their have to bee told. You only have to look at punch drunk boxers.
When you run within yourself and he has never been a noted sprinter it us hard to put a gap on them in 26.9 final quarter. Didnt just fall in as you say. If he goes his usual quick quarters Chilli Palmer sprints over top of him but as we've seen past few weeks not even Chilli can make ground in 26 quarters (oh but Themightyquinn can). Good driving.

On topic. Good thread, good topic Messenger. I haven't had time to post my thoughts but most of what I would have said has been touched on so I won't bore you with details.

[Toohard]

Toohard with all due respect Smoken up has been a great champion. But if lance and owners had a "horse first mentally" they would have done the right thing by the horse and retired him 6 months ago or more. IMO the horse should have been retired as group one horse in a group one race. Not been pushed around week in week out for the sake of it in free for allers. I mean what more do their want of the horse? His won 3.5 million. Properly the same as 10 million in gallopers.

And lance knows it. He just doesn't want to stop being in the lime light. Look at the way his driveing him, Tonite a 32.2 first quarter, 30.5 second quarter. He would never even have worked him that slow in track work. And he only fell in . Two years ago he would have beat those horses by 3 or 4 lenghts.

To make exuses his a gelding or he stills wants to do it are a joke. No top sportsmen wants to retire their have to bee told. You only have to look at punch drunk boxers.

The thread about promoting harness racing. If the last 400m of that race last night wasn't the best promotion for a long time then I'll go he. And note...FREE promotion.

Fell in? He was headed after they turned. Then Chilli Palmer had him in his sights. And he still won. That from a horse that doesn't want to do it?

Don't know why you taking a pot shot at Lance. He drove the horse to win last nights race against the horses that were in last nights race. And he did it perfectly. He won.

He's doing it to keep himself in the limelight? Please...gimme a break. You go out to the trots when he's racing. People turn up to watch him race. Doesn't matter where it is or what type of race it is, they turn up.

Go check out the trots items on social media. See how many people comment about him before and after he races. Every time he bowls around. You don't think that's one of the reasons he might still be racing?

They are a long time retired. Why would you retire him when he's still competitive and providing so much enjoyment to so many people (and free promotion!). Everyone had him written off 6 months ago. Then he broke 1.50 round Menangle again. Not following one....doing it himself out in front. Everyone was wrong. Lance was right. He'll know when it's time for the horse to retire.

Punch drunk boxers get knocked down and don't get up.... Smoken Up does.

[gutwagon]

Jackthepunter I agree with you 100% about Smoken Up . I and most of the people I know in the industry think it is sad to see him still going around , he is a shadow of his former self. And Lance hits him 50+ times a race with the whip , not a good add for the sport.
I think this would be a great chance for him to retire with a win !

[Messenger]

We are bordering on going off topic - I will summarize and say 'having/promoting champions is great for the sport' and can create a following of the horse and the sport. Why promoting drivers could also have benefits but let's not go down the 'sex sells' line that some have suggested for it is simply off - champions should be promoted and of course you are going to use other drivers who are media savvy.

[Toohard]

Sorry Kevin maybe off topic too but didn't want start new thread. Tonight Channel 9 news 6-7pm (Vic for sure..dunno bout other states) something good (didn't want say 'positive') about standardbreds. Ex racehorse now police horse story going to be on.

[Messenger]

Sorry Kevin maybe off topic too but didn't want start new thread. Tonight Channel 9 news 6-7pm (Vic for sure..dunno bout other states) something good (didn't want say 'positive') about standardbreds. Ex racehorse now police horse story going to be on.
Sweet

[Maorisidol]

The thread about promoting harness racing. If the last 400m of that race last night wasn't the best promotion for a long time then I'll go he. And note...FREE promotion.

Fell in? He was headed after they turned. Then Chilli Palmer had him in his sights. And he still won. That from a horse that doesn't want to do it?

Don't know why you taking a pot shot at Lance. He drove the horse to win last nights race against the horses that were in last nights race. And he did it perfectly. He won.

He's doing it to keep himself in the limelight? Please...gimme a break. You go out to the trots when he's racing. People turn up to watch him race. Doesn't matter where it is or what type of race it is, they turn up.

Go check out the trots items on social media. See how many people comment about him before and after he races. Every time he bowls around. You don't think that's one of the reasons he might still be racing?

They are a long time retired. Why would you retire him when he's still competitive and providing so much enjoyment to so many people (and free promotion!). Everyone had him written off 6 months ago. Then he broke 1.50 round Menangle again. Not following one....doing it himself out in front. Everyone was wrong. Lance was right. He'll know when it's time for the horse to retire.

Punch drunk boxers get knocked down and don't get up.... Smoken Up does.

The last 400m a great promotion...i agree but problem is, will we see that anywhere in the near future in any Marketing perspective?
And more importantly will it be outside the realm of people who already know about our great Trigger and who are already fans of him and the sport?
Connecting to people who have never heard of Smoken Up is the important thing and unless i didn't see it, has Trigger been "promoted" outside our inner circle in the last 4-6 weeks???
This is what needs fixing.

[gutwagon]

The standardbred horse joining the police force is a great promotion for our sport. He was retrained by "Raising The Standards". They retrain ex harness horses for riding and find them new homes. They also have at least one graduate that went on to join riding for the disabled.
Raising The Standards was started by one girl that loved horses and has grown with help from HRV and other sponsors. They have retrained hundreds of horses and found great new homes for them.
They are on facebook and have their own website, all horse people should check it out.
http://www.raisingthestandards.com.au/
https://www.facebook.com/rtstandards

[Messenger]

Thanks for the tip Paul (How did you know?) - Bob got good TV time then

[Toohard]

Thanks for the tip Paul (How did you know?) - Bob got good TV time then

Via Ricks links just above.

Great stuff!

[Amlin]

Terrific story.


With hour long news bulletins these days there is no excuse for networks not to be picking up on good news stories in our sport rather than running blurry clips of garbage they have plucked from YouTube.


The two things our board should invest in are: a person who liaises/lobbies these outlets regularly, and keeps feeding them leads/items, and a broadcast quality video camera so that we can film the required footage ourselves at the track and email it straight to the studio with some notes on the event. Then all the network needs to do is a voiceover and put it to air!


Our local TV network sent a cameraman to our Easter Cup - he filmed random crowd and racing shots, and he had a piece of paper with some possible topics for a club spokesperson to comment on to camera, then the station taped the Cup off SKY and put it all together for a 3 minute story the next night.


No need to even send a reporter out into the field. Too easy!

[NormanS]

Make better use of footage like this (Jodie Quinlan driving): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=22IaHgUjXwQ AND get more footage as well (as an owner currently living in Far North QLD, would love to be able to get in race footage like this). This "Puts you in the seat" and maybe if all drivers were required to wear a helmet cam there would be no place to hid from the stewards, maybe then everyone gets given racing room which should equal less interference which maybe leads to punters getting a better run for their money. If the stewards permit them to be used in a race, I'll send a GoPro or Sony Action cam down to my trainer tomorrow.

[NormanS]

As much as I like seeing My colours (currently only as an owner) going around in a race, I much prefer seeing my horse going round in a race. If drivers colours means that we can do this sort of promotion: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lYuF5DNGglQ (Tim Tetrick), or this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qiF4d0SNw30 (Dave Palone) and actually market our people to improve participation rates be that as owners, trainers, drivers, punters, race day visitors then I would accept that for the moment my colours have to hang on my wall.

[Messenger]

Terrific story.


With hour long news bulletins these days there is no excuse for networks not to be picking up on good news stories in our sport rather than running blurry clips of garbage they have plucked from YouTube.


The two things our board should invest in are: a person who liaises/lobbies these outlets regularly, and keeps feeding them leads/items, and a broadcast quality video camera so that we can film the required footage ourselves at the track and email it straight to the studio with some notes on the event. Then all the network needs to do is a voiceover and put it to air!


Our local TV network sent a cameraman to our Easter Cup - he filmed random crowd and racing shots, and he had a piece of paper with some possible topics for a club spokesperson to comment on to camera, then the station taped the Cup off SKY and put it all together for a 3 minute story the next night.


No need to even send a reporter out into the field. Too easy!

My daughter works for one of Australia's/the world's biggest PR companies - that is what they do One of her clients is a sporting body bigger than HRA - if we do not have a PR co. then we should.

[barney]

I live in a galloper dominated area no harness closest is Redclife or Albion park.When i try to convince mates or even just other punters re the benefits of Harness and how great a sport it is the negatives are thrown at me.No one knows the names of our good horses except Blackie up here as was a local idol.I have mentioned Smoken up many times as a champ but been shot down by the fact he won an inter dom but then returned a positive, and had race taken off but trainer was suspended and just kept appealing a bad look.
in this thread closing tracks has been put up as an option up here no tracks left to close .Hopefully in future Gold coast will start again but really no money in racing Qld.

[Messenger]

In his recent Horsham Harness Racing History, the ever astute John Peck wrote:

' The show races are long gone due to the wall to wall racing, OHand S concerns, disinterest from a succession of State controlling bodies and poor stakemoney. You cannot help but feel that with their demise so went some of the sport's soul and opportunities to recruit new young fans who were enthralled by the Show trotting action.'

John Peck, Horsham Harness Racing History

[Danno]

Indeed Kevin, indeed.

The show races were a major marketing tool for harness racing, they were a real attraction to people from all walks of life and an appetiser for many an aspiring participant, an ideal grounding for green horses ( and some green drivers) and they were a lot of bloody good fun too!

[Messenger]

After Lance's criticism of the 'powers to be' failure to promote the sport - he might like to point them to The Age today.
As we all know the sports news starts with the biggest stories on the back page, well today the gallopers get half the second back page about a race that is still about 3 weeks away (and its not the Melbourne Cup)
Gosh we need some movers and shakers

[Messenger]

Flicked through The Sun when picking up a coffee and noticed they had pages of gallops feature stories. I know it is Spring Carnival time but there is a bit of a shortage of sport stories at this time of year and WE just have to get in on the act!

[Richard prior]

Totally agree Kev and they can start with Harness Racing Weekly/National Trotguide, I know that I've whinged about this before but last weeks edition hit an all time low, Less than 5 minutes reading and it was done. For christ's sake, Get some bloody feature story's going.

[Messenger]

Warning : Kevin the nitpicker now

No wonder we cannot get any media coverage if this is an example of our HRV media

http://www.harness.org.au/news-article.cfm?news_id=24577

The second sentence states

With first-class racing on the track, punters will be well catered for with full TAB facilities.

Who could have imagined that Tabcorp Park would have full TAB facilities!

[Messenger]

Today, The Age has 12½ pages of form guide in for the gallops (mostly colour and mostly for tomorrow) and a page with 3 feature stories.
I know newspapers are dieing but sheez I am envious

[cyclone george]

Do they still print the age Kevin. You sure it not an old copy

[Messenger]

An integral part of breakfast everyday Greg and a little tip for you - I reckon Sunline might be a good thing in the Turnbull

[cyclone george]

Yer not bad Kevin , but you are correct it all right having social media but you still need something to direct them there. I have know doubt if hrv bought a page of the sun every week for good positive stories and the odd bad one,more people would be more informed. I've been in a million smoke rooms over the journey I'll assure you the back half of the daily gets read before the front half.

[Messenger]

We have to make the evening betting period OURS. There is a bigger market after work hours than during the day. At least for Tuesday to Saturday we should have a night meeting ever day for Vic and NSW.

Thursday night dogs is the equal of Saturday gallops for the betting agencies. The gallops are waking up - next year there will be a night meeting every week in Vic and who knows how many eventually

Harness looks great under lights but let's get some better camera work - split screen (better cameras?) Only recently having I got Sky again on the TV, I had forgotten that it is really only computer-small screen quality as you can not even make out the numbers most of the time

Then we will have to make sure these Friday and Saturday night meetings have the facilities to make it a entertainment/dining package for those on-course

These meetings will have to be promoted big time in the media

Harness has to make things happen

[Messenger]

I have seen umpteen ads on TV for pre-paid tickets to next month's Ararat Cup (gallops)
Get in people's heads early to plan and commit to an event - interesting
Good professional ads too - not always the case on country TV lol

[Messenger]

The gallops continue to be progressive. As of November 3, TVN will be part of Foxtel's basic package

Edit: This corresponds with Foxtel halving the price of their basic package so TVN and racing may really gain extra exposure if the number of Foxtel subscribers increases due to the price change

[Messenger]

I tuned into the Manikato stakes at MV last night - how good is their video coverage of the race - that is what you have to aspire to Harness Racing authorities as that is what we compete with

[trish]

http://www.harness.org.au/news-article.cfm?news_id=24805

[Messenger]

Thanks trish. That article on the Wagering Working Party contains the following link to their report

http://www.harness.org.au/hra/pdfs/WWP%20Report%20-%20FINAL-301014.pdf

We should all read it (I will try to get onto it later today)

[trish]

Interesting & good read. Would have taken mega time to compile all that info , so well done to everyone concerned for putting it all together.

[Amlin]

Let us hope something positive is done with the data collated - though not at the expense of the country areas who hold the sport together. Too many reports have been commissioned with no real action and too much has been pillaged from our sport at the grass roots level over the years IMO.

[Messenger]

7 out of 9 Favs at Ballarat tonight were odds on. Compared to the races (today) it probably seems like no value - we just have to get the message out that half of the odds on Favs lose so there is real value to be found

[Richard prior]

Great point Kev, I've followed the Trots for many years and there's far more value with them compared to the TB's and the Yappers, Maybe the punters see an odds on Fav and avoid having a punt on the Trots, This can be very deceiving and you would have to think that their not reading the form or barrier and draws correctly. A lot of Punters take the short odds and would be driven away due to the short priced Fav's getting rolled fairly consistently but imho, You really must look for the value runners and there's always value around the exotic's as well. Another thing I would like to point out is some of our high payed tipsters have NFI, A certain bloke gets on Tele spruiking the Shorties fairly regularly and he's like the Kiss of Death, Have wondered for a while now if this particular bloke also punts his tips because he would go home with the arse out of his pants most of the time. A warning to Punters, Don't listen to the High Profile Tipsters, Do your own form and reap the benefits.

[arlington]

Following on from Richard's

Maybe the punters see an odds on Fav and avoid having a punt on the Trots, This can be very deceiving and you would have to think that their not reading the form or barrier and draws correctly. A lot of Punters take the short odds and would be driven away due to the short priced Fav's getting rolled fairly consistently


and Kev's


we just have to get the message out that half of the odds on Favs lose so there is real value to be found

A question for the punters in the forum. False odds on favourites, what are your thoughts on prices/assessments when markets first open? Not so much group one races but midweek and weekly metro meetings. Also do you feel the fluctuations, or lack of, are truly due to the weight of money invested or still influenced by the betting company's assessors?
Thinking about one of the recommendations from the Wagering Working Panel, employing a form analyst to assist stewards with race (integrity) matters, do harness racing punters, newbies/casual, need the opinion of an independent price assessor? Are the punters being offered that already? If so, how prominent is that info?

[The Form Student]

The best thing they could do would be to make it illegal to bet more than a 120% market on every race! For example on a hypothetical, if they lay every runner for the same amount in 5 races, they have made 100% profit, equal to the holdings of 1 race! Gee, if something firms up and wins, is it the end of the world for bookies? This was a hypothetical, but it is the basis for discussion.

If you look at the markets in the paper, they are a lot of rubbish, more often than not over 130%........who can take them seriously?

Form analysts to assist stewards, what a lot of rubbish............next we'll have the stewards running down to the drivers at the start, telling them your on the favourite, there's no money for it!.....we are watching you! Let racing be racing, and get rid of the "Change of tactics" rule, it stifles a free market.......the racing is becoming to controlled.......what point is it when it is announced 1 hour before the race...........if they are trying to help the "ordinary punter" they are not, he is not going to know what the hell all this means! Some will say it is to protect them and assist with knowing what is going to happen at the start........next we'll have the drivers needing to declare I'm taking off at the 600 metre mark today, not waiting for a cart up and coming out from the turn, as I usually do! The form analyst will then be saying, whether that was a correct strategy or not! Where does it end?

[arlington]

You hit it on the head The Form Student and I'd forgotten about the prices in the paper. Even though not being a new generation tech savvy guy myself I'm thinking new generation punters would look online, a corporate's site for prices. But still, the papers, where do they come from, the tipster or a selected third party? In Vic Huctchy used to? And we know it's not the end of the world for the corporates if a true odds on favourite firms up and wins...what were the stats Kev?
Oh for the days, going to the track and watching the betting ring.
Was looking at it in reference to Richard's #129 and Kev's #128 posts, and from the casual/new punter's view, being put off with those paper prices and opening prices with the corporates reflecting a true favourite. I was asking do the fair dinkum punters here find the opening markets with the betting agencies on race day accurate bearing in mind casual punters might follow the so called money. The snowball effect, naïve money following naïve money. Has always happened but am now wondering how/if the corporates influence that. Do all agencies refresh with fluctuations easily showing where the money is going? Valid points The Form Student, percentages and corporate's 'risk management'. Not disregarding the well educated punter but is it too complex for the casual/new? So bearing that in mind...with my reference to Form analysts to assist stewards, Iwas thinking along the lines of would more accurate price assessment be more beneficial to wagering before worrying about what might be a perception, the industry/punter being better served by an analyst after they jumped.

[brent_L]

A question for the punters in the forum. False odds on favourites, what are your thoughts on prices/assessments when markets first open? Not so much group one races but midweek and weekly metro meetings. Also do you feel the fluctuations, or lack of, are truly due to the weight of money invested or still influenced by the betting company's assessors?
Thinking about one of the recommendations from the Wagering Working Panel, employing a form analyst to assist stewards with race (integrity) matters, do harness racing punters, newbies/casual, need the opinion of an independent price assessor? Are the punters being offered that already? If so, how prominent is that info?
In Australian racing, Betfair is the only guide to a true market.....hence IMO there is no such thing as a 'false favourite', it's quite simply supply & demand....there is no way a parimutual pool style market where up to 18% has been taken out of the pool can be any true guide (that's not to mention the fact that one persons investment in said market can change the landscape markedly). The less said about the corporates the better.....u WILL be banned if u happen to win or show any smarts whatsoever, but to answer your question Wayne, their prices change due to weight of money especially if bets are placed soon after the market has been opened.
In regard to what punters are being offered, unless you *use betfair *bet on the tote *lose, your options become very limited.
http://fairwageringaustralia.com

[Messenger]

Wayne, in regard to your 'money following money' have you ever watched any of Ch.7's racing coverage - all they go on about is the 'market mover'. LOL and then you are trusting a bookie to be telling you the truth (and not what he wants to lay)

Brent, I notice the markets The Age puts up for the gallops (esp pre-race day) always credits Betfair as the source

[The Form Student]

Wayne, in regard to your 'money following money' have you ever watched any of Ch.7's racing coverage - all they go on about is the 'market mover'. LOL and then you are trusting a bookie to be telling you the truth (and not what he wants to lay)

Brent, I notice the markets The Age puts up for the gallops (esp pre-race day) always credits Betfair as the source

Kev, Sky on a Staurday afternoon have now introduced an additional host for the gallops from Sportsbet to update punters on the big bets and market movers, as soon as one wins they go on about how they told you about it!..........not the one that went from 2/1 to 4/1 and salutes! I have seen in the past couple of weeks where market movers have replaced the original favourite, and the original favourite has won! The market mover would not have won even "fired out of a cannon!" It's all goes by perception and the talk! On Harness Racing pre-post markets, all they are trying to do is hype up the betting action, that's all! I am sick of the tipsters tipping favourites!
Last week, I nearly fell off my chair when I saw the proposed "all up" bet proposed on a Victorian Harness meeting, 3 horses, 1 was 1/10 on, 1 was 2/1 & the other 1/25 on, if they all won, you would have got $3.33 for your $1...........if you had a $100 on it, you win $233.......unfortunately, the 2/1 chance got beat........please, I have never seen so much rubbish in all my life! They would be better off trying to get an exotic with the these "shorties" instead!

[brent_L]

So bearing that in mind...with my reference to Form analysts to assist stewards, Iwas thinking along the lines of would more accurate price assessment be more beneficial to wagering before worrying about what might be a perception, the industry/punter being better served by an analyst after they jumped.
IMO it's just not possible Wayne. The gallops markets that are put out early aren't even close to post time prices on most occasions, and there would be 50 fold the amount of analysts working on them compared to those on the trots. You just have to look at the analysis provided by 'experts' iform, trottips etc, sometimes (some would say most times) they are a cricket pitch off in their assessments. There is just no exact science that can be used.....it's all opinions until the supply & demand sorts out the market shortly before the jump.

[brent_L]

Kev, Sky on a Staurday afternoon have now introduced an additional host for the gallops from Sportsbet to update punters on the big bets and market movers
He's from the TAB and not just on Saturdays unfortunately....it just makes me wanna be sick. I see no difference in this style of marketing to that that resulted in Waterhouse being rubbished all over town.

[arlington]

Thanks for the feed back guys. I guess you can't take the g out of gamble, but the corporates....the way they've operated, a blight on the industry for both punters and returns to industry via product fees etc.

[Messenger]

http://www.harness.org.au/stewards-reports-detail.cfm?mc=RP121114&fromstate=vic

On entering the home straight on the final occasion, while being driven out to the finish, Tibytoa (Greg Cramp) shifted out under pressure resulting in Intransit (Shayne Cramp), obtaining a clear run to its inside to ultimately win the race. Driver Greg Cramp advised that Tibytoa had a tendency to hang out throughout the race however agreed that he could have made a greater effort to maintain a straight course to the finish. Mr Greg Cramp pleaded guilty to a charge under Rule 162(1)(www) for failing to make sufficient effort to maintain a straight course which resulted in the stablemate, Intransit being advantaged when it obtained a clear run to his inside. Considering Intransit was a stablemate of Tibytoa and that Mr Cramp had been found guilty of a charge under this rule 15 months prior, Mr Greg Cramp’s licence to drive in races was suspended for a period of 4 weeks to commence midnight 12 November.

We are never going gain new punters when we put up with this crap. If he does it a 3rd time anytime in the next 2yrs - they should give him 12mths

[doncht]

How about getting Sky1 and Sky2, I think it will be a good move. https://imagicon.info/cat/10-3/1.gif

[Messenger]

Watching the TVN coverage of Sha Tin. How do we compete with that - we cannot BUT we have to get some exclusive coverage like that at least a couple of times a year and do it twice as well as we do now

[Messenger]

The trot has just been run at Horsham and it seemed to gather a few more spectators than the previous races but on counting there was less than 50 of us on the steps. There was about 40 blokes but I would only bet that 2 of them are younger than me - I am a few weeks short of 60.
I know it is a Wednesday arvo and probably anyone not retired should be at work but it made me think - if it is true that punters will only bet on what they can watch, are daytime punters mostly over 60, Pro's or in the loo at work with their i phone

[doncht]

if it is true that punters will only bet on what they can watch, are daytime punters mostly over 60

Indeed. I think that makes a whole lot of sense! https://imagicon.info/cat/10-3/smile4.png