Why are stewards penalties so weak?

[jackthepunter]

Its time stewards got tough on people. I mean real tough not this wishie washie crap.
These 6-12 months penalties do nothing, other than to give these people a nice hoilday for the money thier earned cheating the sport in the pervious years. How about grow some balls,change the rules to this. Regardless of the drug ( bi-carb, epo, cobalt) who cares what its is a drug is a drug.

First offence 5 years , Second 10 years , Third life. You have to put some fear in people.
To me its seems at the monment its like go your hardest if you get caught so what. Its only
6 months, 12 months, 2 years. I'll just enjoy life untill then, get my licence back and go again untill I get caught. Theirs no deterrent for anyone to stop cheating or to not think
about doing it. Get real with penalties

[p plater]

Not to mention the ability to transfer training to a family member or partner

[cyclone george]

Penalties are not strong enough you reckon . You will not find a bigger anti drugs advocate then me, but under your system dean Braun gets 5 years for bute ,which has a cut of period of 5 days. Nsw vets and lab,deans vet all gave evidence that the levels found in it horse's system was administered at least 7 days before,but he still got 6 months ,under your system he gets 5 years. Just before everyone shoots me down here who hasn't had a horse that hasn't been treated with bute 7 days from a race.

[Toohard]

Stewards don't set the penalties. Stewards administer the rules.

[mango]

Penalties are not strong enough you reckon . You will not find a bigger anti drugs advocate then me, but under your system dean Braun gets 5 years for bute ,which has a cut of period of 5 days. Nsw vets and lab,deans vet all gave evidence that the levels found in it horse's system was administered at least 7 days before,but he still got 6 months ,under your system he gets 5 years. Just before everyone shoots me down here who hasn't had a horse that hasn't been treated with bute 7 days from a race.

Hi Greg

I'd agree with you on this, I read an article before about bute and it said that bute only works for 72hrs (3 day's) so the the small amount that was in the horses system at 7 day's would have been no benefit to the horses performance at all. To me I find that 6 months was a little harsh. By the way just to let people know I don't know Dean it's just my opinion.

[jackthepunter]

Stewards don't set the penalties. Stewards administer the rules.

Thats my point if you read what i said, i said change the rules. They used to set
penalties here in vic, before this joke of a rad board came in. If you look at the
results of the rad board all most every one who appeals gets a lighter sentence

[jackthepunter]

Penalties are not strong enough you reckon . You will not find a bigger anti drugs advocate then me, but under your system dean Braun gets 5 years for bute ,which has a cut of period of 5 days. Nsw vets and lab,deans vet all gave evidence that the levels found in it horse's system was administered at least 7 days before,but he still got 6 months ,under your system he gets 5 years. Just before everyone shoots me down here who hasn't had a horse that hasn't been treated with bute 7 days from a race.

Bute is still classed as a drug, who knows if it could be masking something else

[jackthepunter]

Just been told by a mate of mine who trains a couple of thoroughbreds their vet says min7 days before next race
prefreable 9days if they give their horse bute once their get home for recovery untill its
next start.

[cyclone george]

Bute is still classed as a drug, who knows if it could be masking something else

Could be,the queen could all be my mother . If there no evidence of that don't say it.

[Toohard]

Thats my point if you read what i said, i said change the rules. They used to set
penalties here in vic, before this joke of a rad board came in. If you look at the
results of the rad board all most every one who appeals gets a lighter sentence

Not arguing Jack. Can't pin it on the stewards though.

[Danno]

Penalties are not strong enough you reckon . You will not find a bigger anti drugs advocate then me, but under your system dean Braun gets 5 years for bute ,which has a cut of period of 5 days. Nsw vets and lab,deans vet all gave evidence that the levels found in it horse's system was administered at least 7 days before,but he still got 6 months ,under your system he gets 5 years. Just before everyone shoots me down here who hasn't had a horse that hasn't been treated with bute 7 days from a race.

G'day Greg,
I may only be a hobby trainer/driver /breeder/farrier/owner/idiot, but I have NEVER sent a horse to the races that needed bute inside two weeks before a race.
I personaly believe anyone using bute as a training tool is an absolute imbecile, but hey I'm only a hobby trainer, who has only had about a thousand starters over a period of almost 40 years, so I'm not your fully informed "chemist " type trainer.

I am a horseman first and foremost and anyone who thinks a horse that actually needed Bute inside a week from a race is not only pushing the rules, but is IMO, not really even trying to think about the overall welfare of the horse.

So to answer the question in the last sentence of your post....Me! and I will bet there are just as many like me as those who are not.

Cheers,
Dan

[Greg Hando]

G'day Greg,
I may only be a hobby trainer/driver /breeder/farrier/owner/idiot, but I have NEVER sent a horse to the races that needed bute inside two weeks before a race.
I personaly believe anyone using bute as a training tool is an absolute imbecile, but hey I'm only a hobby trainer, who has only had about a thousand starters over a period of almost 40 years, so I'm not your fully informed "chemist " type trainer.

I am a horseman first and foremost and anyone who thinks a horse that actually needed Bute inside a week from a race is not only pushing the rules, but is IMO, not really even trying to think about the overall welfare of the horse.

So to answer the question in the last sentence of your post....Me! and I will bet there are just as many like me as those who are not.


Cheers,
Dan

And me as well Dan if the horse needs a pain killer he shouldn't be racing.

[Greg Hando]

Here Jack is NSW penalty guidelines,

HRNSW PENALTY GUIDELINES HRNSW PENALTY GUIDELINES

V3 – 21.03.13 6
PENALTY GUIDELINES FOR THERAPEUTIC SUBSTANCES AND
TCO2 POSITIVES TCO2 POSITIVES

CLASS 1 CLASS 1

This category of drugs has the highest potential to affect performance and have no generally accepted medical use
in the racing horse.

It includes, but is not limited to, central nervous systems stimulants and depressants, narcotic analgesics, synthetic
EPO derivatives , including polyethylene glycolated – epoetin beta (PEG-EPO), ITPP, AICAR, snake venom, snail
venom, other animal venom and all substances specifically referred to in AHRR 190A (2) Out of Competition Testing
and any other substance not registered for use in equines and/or Humans.

The list below is some of those substances, but is not limited to:

• Anileridine
• Etorphine
• Dipipanone
• Endorphins
• Human erythropoietin, darbepoetin alpha
• Human insulin, bovine insulin and porcine/canine insulin
• Diacetylmorphine (heroin), cocaine, cannabinoids and lysergic acid diethylamine (LSD)
• Amphetamines including amphetamine, methylamphetamine
• Methylenedioxyamphetamine and methylenedioxyamphetamine

First offence

• No less than five (5) years disqualification

Second offence

• No less than (10) years disqualification


CLASS 2 CLASS 2

Drugs in this category have a high potential to affect performance but less of a potential than Class1.

They include but are not limited to psychotropic drugs, certain nervous system stimulants and depressants and
neuromuscular blocking agents.

Local anaesthetics are included in this class because of their high potential for abuse as nerve blocking agents.

It also includes but is not limited to:

• TCO2
• Anabolic steroids (including HPC)
• SARMs
• SERMs (eg Tamoxifen)

First offence

• No less than two (2) years disqualification

Second offence

• No less than five (5) years disqualification

Third offence

• No less than ten (10) years disqualification
HRNSW PENALTY GUIDELINES HRNSW PENALTY GUIDELINES

V3 – 21.03.13 7
CLASS 3 CLASS 3

This category includes those medications registered in Australia for veterinary use which have an accepted
therapeutic use in the racing horse.

Australian registered human preparations with an accepted therapeutic use in the racing horse may also be included
in this Class.

Includes all therapeutic substances.

First offence

• Twelve (12) months disqualification

Second offence

• Two (2) years disqualification

Third offence

• Five (5) years disqualification

Fourth offence

• Ten (10) years disqualification

Stewards may consider a reduction on compelling evidence that the person:

• Did not administer or caused to administer the prohibited substance
• Did not know or have reason to believe it was administered
• Taken all reasonable steps to ensure administered was not possible
• If a person makes an omission or pleads “guilty” to any offence

HRNSW PENALTY GUIDELINES HRNSW PENALTY GUIDELINES

V3 – 21.03.13 8
PENALTY GUIDELINES FOR DRIVING OFFENCES PENALTY GUIDELINES FOR DRIVING OFFENCES

[Wilso]

G'day Greg,
I may only be a hobby trainer/driver /breeder/farrier/owner/idiot, but I have NEVER sent a horse to the races that needed bute inside two weeks before a race.
I personaly believe anyone using bute as a training tool is an absolute imbecile, but hey I'm only a hobby trainer, who has only had about a thousand starters over a period of almost 40 years, so I'm not your fully informed "chemist " type trainer.

I am a horseman first and foremost and anyone who thinks a horse that actually needed Bute inside a week from a race is not only pushing the rules, but is IMO, not really even trying to think about the overall welfare of the horse.

So to answer the question in the last sentence of your post....Me! and I will bet there are just as many like me as those who are not.

Cheers,
Dan

Dan,
Bute is used my many trainers as a recovery tool, it is totally acceptable to administer bute to a horse after a race if its going to race 7 days later.
It is recommended to use Bute 7 days out but you can use it 6 days out and be fine.
Some of these posts are completely stupid!
Trainers do not use bute as a performance enhancer its is used in horse management.
I find it extremely hard to believe that Dean used bute to gain an unfair advantage. If memory serves me correctly Magical Telf was a $1.30 favorite so why would he bute it up?
Obviously it was a husbandry mistake.
You state about the trainer not thinking about the overall welfare of the horse?
Thats the single most ridiculous thing ive ever heard and I suggest you stick to getting no winners as obviously you dont value a horses welfare if your against a trainer administering bute in an attempt to look after there horse.
Rant over.
Steve

[jackthepunter]

Here Jack is NSW penalty guidelines,

HRNSW PENALTY GUIDELINES HRNSW PENALTY GUIDELINES

V3 – 21.03.13 6
PENALTY GUIDELINES FOR THERAPEUTIC SUBSTANCES AND
TCO2 POSITIVES TCO2 POSITIVES

CLASS 1 CLASS 1

This category of drugs has the highest potential to affect performance and have no generally accepted medical use
in the racing horse.

It includes, but is not limited to, central nervous systems stimulants and depressants, narcotic analgesics, synthetic
EPO derivatives , including polyethylene glycolated – epoetin beta (PEG-EPO), ITPP, AICAR, snake venom, snail
venom, other animal venom and all substances specifically referred to in AHRR 190A (2) Out of Competition Testing
and any other substance not registered for use in equines and/or Humans.

The list below is some of those substances, but is not limited to:

• Anileridine
• Etorphine
• Dipipanone
• Endorphins
• Human erythropoietin, darbepoetin alpha
• Human insulin, bovine insulin and porcine/canine insulin
• Diacetylmorphine (heroin), cocaine, cannabinoids and lysergic acid diethylamine (LSD)
• Amphetamines including amphetamine, methylamphetamine
• Methylenedioxyamphetamine and methylenedioxyamphetamine

First offence

• No less than five (5) years disqualification

Second offence

• No less than (10) years disqualification


CLASS 2 CLASS 2

Drugs in this category have a high potential to affect performance but less of a potential than Class1.

They include but are not limited to psychotropic drugs, certain nervous system stimulants and depressants and
neuromuscular blocking agents.

Local anaesthetics are included in this class because of their high potential for abuse as nerve blocking agents.

It also includes but is not limited to:

• TCO2
• Anabolic steroids (including HPC)
• SARMs
• SERMs (eg Tamoxifen)

First offence

• No less than two (2) years disqualification

Second offence

• No less than five (5) years disqualification

Third offence

• No less than ten (10) years disqualification
HRNSW PENALTY GUIDELINES HRNSW PENALTY GUIDELINES

V3 – 21.03.13 7
CLASS 3 CLASS 3

This category includes those medications registered in Australia for veterinary use which have an accepted
therapeutic use in the racing horse.

Australian registered human preparations with an accepted therapeutic use in the racing horse may also be included
in this Class.

Includes all therapeutic substances.

First offence

• Twelve (12) months disqualification

Second offence

• Two (2) years disqualification

Third offence

• Five (5) years disqualification

Fourth offence

• Ten (10) years disqualification

Stewards may consider a reduction on compelling evidence that the person:

• Did not administer or caused to administer the prohibited substance
• Did not know or have reason to believe it was administered
• Taken all reasonable steps to ensure administered was not possible
• If a person makes an omission or pleads “guilty” to any offence

HRNSW PENALTY GUIDELINES HRNSW PENALTY GUIDELINES

V3 – 21.03.13 8
PENALTY GUIDELINES FOR DRIVING OFFENCES PENALTY GUIDELINES FOR DRIVING OFFENCES

Greg I fully support these rules, problem is they vary to much from state to state. And after reading these rules for some shocking reason even nsw stewards have chosen for reasons I can't believe to change them and go against them. Why? Under these rules both M Hardy and R Nicholson should have been given 5years staight forward no questions asked. Yet Hardy gets 30 months and Nicholson 3 Years. Given how dangerous Cobalt is said to be to a horse and the fact its acts like epo surely its a Class 1 drug no questions asked.

Also under these rules bute would class 3, 12 months staight up no room to move. People on here have said dean been given 6 months. Though I cant see any stewards reports saying this.

[aussiebreno]

Greg I fully support these rules, problem is they vary to much from state to state. And after reading these rules for some shocking reason even nsw stewards have chosen for reasons I can't believe to change them and go against them. Why? Under these rules both M Hardy and R Nicholson should have been given 5years staight forward no questions asked. Yet Hardy gets 30 months and Nicholson 3 Years. Given how dangerous Cobalt is said to be to a horse and the fact its acts like epo surely its a Class 1 drug no questions asked.

Also under these rules bute would class 3, 12 months staight up no room to move. People on here have said dean been given 6 months. Though I cant see any stewards reports saying this.
The get out clause down the bottom says they can get lessor penalty if:

• Did not administer or caused to administer the prohibited substance
• Did not know or have reason to believe it was administered
• Taken all reasonable steps to ensure administered was not possible
• If a person makes an omission or pleads “guilty” to any offence

[Messenger]

Steve, if somone is not of the same opinion as you it is NOT a given that they are stupid.
Some people when they get a headache, make sure they are hydrated and get some fresh air or take a catnap etc. while there are some people who will pop some pills straight away. We humans also have varied opinions on how to manage pain in horses.

[Danno]

Dan,
Bute is used my many trainers as a recovery tool, it is totally acceptable to administer bute to a horse after a race if its going to race 7 days later.
It is recommended to use Bute 7 days out but you can use it 6 days out and be fine.
Some of these posts are completely stupid!
Trainers do not use bute as a performance enhancer its is used in horse management.
I find it extremely hard to believe that Dean used bute to gain an unfair advantage. If memory serves me correctly Magical Telf was a $1.30 favorite so why would he bute it up?
Obviously it was a husbandry mistake.
You state about the trainer not thinking about the overall welfare of the horse?
Thats the single most ridiculous thing ive ever heard and I suggest you stick to getting no winners as obviously you dont value a horses welfare if your against a trainer administering bute in an attempt to look after there horse.
Rant over.
Steve

Steve, everything you stated in this post is bullshit, you really have no idea if you think a "husbandry mistake" is OK. I don't believe the Bute was administered to gain an unfair advantage, but yes it was administered in order to get the horse to the races hey ?
Should the horse have been in the race if he needed bute to be there, my opinion is no, the rules, like them or not back that up.

That last sentence you sprayed makes no sense whatsoever and proves old mate it is yourself that has no idea, I did not say at any stage I was against administering Bute, I said inside 2 weeks before a race if a horse needs bute it shouldn't be at the races.

Go shove your head back in the hole it came from.

[Richard prior]

Lmfao!!!

[Wilso]

Steve, everything you stated in this post is bullshit, you really have no idea if you think a "husbandry mistake" is OK. I don't believe the Bute was administered to gain an unfair advantage, but yes it was administered in order to get the horse to the races hey ?
Should the horse have been in the race if he needed bute to be there, my opinion is no, the rules, like them or not back that up.

That last sentence you sprayed makes no sense whatsoever and proves old mate it is yourself that has no idea, I did not say at any stage I was against administering Bute, I said inside 2 weeks before a race if a horse needs bute it shouldn't be at the races.

Go shove your head back in the hole it came from.

Stick to having no idea mate.
Someone that's trained 1 winner in the past god knows how long really shouldn't lecture others.
Your theory on bute is utter rubbish.
If a horse is given bute 7 days out it is completely within the rules.
Do you know what husbandry is?
No Dan it does not involve a man loving a woman very very much.
I suggest you look it up, then you will realize that Deans positive was in fact a husbandry error.
As for your last sentence, it must be such an ordinary feeling when someone proves you so very wrong you have to carry on like a circus freak. In which case excuse the pun but I will endeavor not to throw anymore pie in your face.
Steve

[cyclone george]

A trainer that uses bute is a chemist,How do you know it might have had a tempeture 7 days before it race for a day or so. Couldn't find a better reason to call trainers a chemist. Good reason not to run it for 14 days,you've got to be joking

[jackthepunter]

Cobalt Chloride use had been detected in Victoria

Darryl Sherer - 1/06/2014
Victorian-trained horses had been detected with excessive levels of Cobalt Chloride in their system prior to it being listed as a prohibited substance.

Racing Victoria chief steward Terry Bailey said there had been evidence of its use and that had prompted Racing Victoria to identify it and introduce a threshold limit of 200 micrograms per litre in urine from April 14 this year.

"Cobalt occurs naturally in a horse and introducing rules for a threshold was not straightforward but we are fortunate the Racing Victoria board and Bernard Saundry backed us by putting a rule in place and it puts us on solid ground in Victoria.” Bailey said on Radio RSN Sunday.

Racing NSW stewards conducted a search of trainer Darren Smith’s Broadmeadow stables on Friday morning and found evidence of Cobalt Chloride use, scratching Smith’s two runners at Rosehill on Saturday and refusing nominations of horses trained by him.

Bailey said ‘posession of Cobalt Chloride is an offence’ for licenced persons and the Racing NSW case is ‘interesting and one that we will watch with interest’

"All we want is an equal playing field and we are satisfied that the rule we have in place is adequate until further tests are done on this substance,” he said.

Bailey confirmed that swab samples had detected horses with elevated levels of Cobalt Chloride in their system prior to the threshold limit rule being introduced.

"Since the rule came in we’re certainly pleased and confident we don’t have an issue with it here (Victoria) based on the results so far.

"We did have some evidence of that prior to the rule being implemented but I’m pleased to say the rule seems to have served as a deterrent and our tests are suggesting that.” he said.

Every swab sample taken in Victoria from April 14 has been tested for Cobalt Chloride.


This has to been the greatest piss take of all time. Basically will work out witch trainers are over the limit, give them plenty of warning to stop then start testing for it what a joke. Terry Bailey has said in the past their know about it possible use for over 12 months and hong kong have had their level set at 100mg for some time.
Yet harness racing always cops the bad rap, because some of the time we go after people before the fact. Yet the gallops of course are so clean when they race for millions of dollor and we race for a few thousand. Your got to have a good laugh at this.

[Wilso]

I do however disagree with that fact he was disqualified on friday by HRNSW but it didnt come into effect until midnight given he had horses engaged at Melton.

[teecee]

This forum is for members 18 years and older to express their views on ISSUES relating to HARNESS RACING in a MATURE and Thoughtful manner. To refresh your memory of how this works if you personally feel the need of a refresher I suggest you go back and read the thread on improving Harness Racing in Australia.
Some of the latest views I have read here especially in this thread I believe are not consistent with this. Please read what you post in the perspective of the reader before you submit it and ensure it represents a mature view of the ISSUE and respects the reader.

Recent comments referring to others' opinions directly and avoiding the discussion here are pretty close to the edge of where this thread could regrettably be closed.
Thank you.

[mango]

I do however disagree with that fact he was disqualified on friday by HRNSW but it didnt come into effect until midnight given he had horses engaged at Melton.

Hi Steve

Hrnsw updated late friday arvo on the official twitter account that Dean was disqualified for 6 months from midnight 30-5 and they will be releasing more info monday. Melton raced friday so that's why it came into effect at midnight.

[Wilso]

Hi Steve

Hrnsw updated late friday arvo on the official twitter account that Dean was disqualified for 6 months from midnight 30-5 and they will be releasing more info monday. Melton raced friday so that's why it came into effect at midnight.

Understood Dallas.
Do we know whats doing with his horses?

[Danno]

Steve, "wilso",

firstly can I please apologise for the major error I have made, you see a few years ago ( I have already been clear about the fact that I am a hobby trainer) my work took me into the "intellectual disabilities" sphere, for quite a while actually, about seven years all up, and I am really embarressed to admit ( having been a former professional in the field) that, despite numerous warning signs like an "inability to connect more than 2 facts" simultaneously, "finds it difficult to relate to anything other than personal experience", that I have completely missed that I am debating some one that a few years ago I would have defended on the basis of diminished capacity.

please accept my truly heartfelt apology, I was once guilty of engaging in a battle of wits with an unarmed man and swore to myself I would never do that again, but here we go and I've done it again.

BTW "Steve", You've had a fair dig at my recent poor run as a trainer, if you have any ticker at all you will enlighten the rest of us with your own statistics, I'm only guessing but I think an interview might go somethiong like this.....

Q. tell us Steve, how many winners have you trained? A. None but I know a bloke that has.

Q. tell us Steve, how many times have you actually worked a horse. A. Never but I know a bloke that does.


Q. tell us Steve, how many times have you actually harnessed a horse up?? . A. Never but I know a bloke that has.


Q. tell us Steve, how many horses have you worked on a track? A. None, but I know a bloke that has.


Q. tell us Steve, how many horses have you actually touched?? A. None, but I know a bloke that has.

Q. tell us Steve, how many horses have you actually driven in a race?? A. None, but I know a bloke that has.

Q. tell us Steve, how many horses have you actually driven trackwork?? A. None, but I know a bloke that has.

Q. tell us Steve, how many horses have you broken in?? A. None, but I know a bloke that has.

Q. tell us Steve, how many horses have you shod?? A. None, but I know a bloke that has.


Tell me how far wrong I am Steve, please prove me to be the fool. I can spot a bullshit artist from a long way away mate and you fit the bill admirably.

[Wilso]

Steve, "wilso",

firstly can I please apologise for the major error I have made, you see a few years ago ( I have already been clear about the fact that I am a hobby trainer) my work took me into the "intellectual disabilities" sphere, for quite a while actually, about seven years all up, and I am really embarressed to admit ( having been a former professional in the field) that, despite numerous warning signs like an "inability to connect more than 2 facts" simultaneously, "finds it difficult to relate to anything other than personal experience", that I have completely missed that I am debating some one that a few years ago I would have defended on the basis of diminished capacity.

please accept my truly heartfelt apology, I was once guilty of engaging in a battle of wits with an unarmed man and swore to myself I would never do that again, but here we go and I've done it again.

BTW "Steve", You've had a fair dig at my recent poor run as a trainer, if you have any ticker at all you will enlighten the rest of us with your own statistics, I'm only guessing but I think an interview might go somethiong like this.....

Q. tell us Steve, how many winners have you trained? A. None but I know a bloke that has.

Q. tell us Steve, how many times have you actually worked a horse. A. Never but I know a bloke that does.


Q. tell us Steve, how many times have you actually harnessed a horse up?? . A. Never but I know a bloke that has.


Q. tell us Steve, how many horses have you worked on a track? A. None, but I know a bloke that has.


Q. tell us Steve, how many horses have you actually touched?? A. None, but I know a bloke that has.

Q. tell us Steve, how many horses have you actually driven in a race?? A. None, but I know a bloke that has.

Q. tell us Steve, how many horses have you actually driven trackwork?? A. None, but I know a bloke that has.

Q. tell us Steve, how many horses have you broken in?? A. None, but I know a bloke that has.

Q. tell us Steve, how many horses have you shod?? A. None, but I know a bloke that has.


Tell me how far wrong I am Steve, please prove me to be the fool. I can spot a bullshit artist from a long way away mate and you fit the bill admirably.

Take you a while to compose that did it Danny?
Little tip try a little more training little less worrying about Harness Forum and you may get some results at the races.
My advice, try the KISS rule...
Keep It Simple Stupid

[Toohard]

Take you a while to compose that did it Danny?
Little tip try a little more training little less worrying about Harness Forum and you may get some results at the races.
My advice, try the KISS rule...
Keep It Simple Stupid

9 questions.
Answered 0.

Maybe ask 1 at time...

[Messenger]

A trainer that uses bute is a chemist,How do you know it might have had a tempeture 7 days before it race for a day or so. Couldn't find a better reason to call trainers a chemist. Good reason not to run it for 14 days,you've got to be joking

Greg can you slow down and compose your posts coherently. I have taught English to people from all age groups but I am really guessing that the following is what you were trying to say :

A trainer that uses bute is not a chemist. Bute could be used by a trainer for a horse that had a temperature and was not due to race for 7 days. Using bute is not a good reason to call a trainer a chemist. You are surely joking about preferring to postpone racing such a horse for 14 days. (The last sentence makes more sense when placed 2nd last but I did not want to change your thought processes completely)

[Messenger]

Take you a while to compose that did it Danny?
Little tip try a little more training little less worrying about Harness Forum and you may get some results at the races.
My advice, try the KISS rule...
Keep It Simple Stupid

You really need to read post 24 or you will need a new IP just to read this forum
The key to keeping it simple is
- provide some proof/support for the statements you make (something that you have not been doing)
- when replying to a post address the content/questions raised by the post

[Wilso]

9 questions.
Answered 0.

Maybe ask 1 at time...

Oh how wrong you are.
As much as id love to spend an hour like Danny to compose I pile of rubbish I think we are getting way off topic.
If Danny would like to discuss it further he can PM me and we can discuss it further because as fun as this is we are no longer discussing the topic at hand and we dont want a moderator spray :-p
Steve

[Toohard]

An hour to type 9 zeroes? ?

[Danno]

Take you a while to compose that did it Danny?
Little tip try a little more training little less worrying about Harness Forum and you may get some results at the races.
My advice, try the KISS rule...
Keep It Simple Stupid

That took about 3 minutes you dolt, now answer the questions, but you can't can you? be carefull, your starting to show a real identity, no one calls me "Danny" on this forum!

[p plater]

Is Wilso really Bill Shorten....can't answer a question

[Messenger]

Is Wilso really Bill Shorten....can't answer a question
Could be Tony Abbot and only answers them V __ E __ R __ Y .................... S __ L __ O __ W __ L __ Y

[aussiebreno]

Is Wilso really Bill Shorten....can't answer a question
Careful, Danno V Wilso I can handle, Broncobrad V Triple V wow will some long boring posts be posted! Please dont encourage this!

[Richard prior]

I've retracted that last statement, Really sorry to hear that Brad, Where all thinking about you and condolences to the family.

[Danno]

Just found out Brad lost his mum in the last week or so,

[Messenger]

We are all thinking of you Brad. A death in the family is devastating

[cyclone george]

This forum is for members 18 years and older to express their views on ISSUES relating to HARNESS RACING in a MATURE and Thoughtful manner. To refresh your memory of how this works if you personally feel the need of a refresher I suggest you go back and read the thread on improving Harness Racing in Australia.
Some of the latest views I have read here especially in this thread I believe are not consistent with this. Please read what you post in the perspective of the reader before you submit it and ensure it represents a mature view of the ISSUE and respects the reader.

Recent comments referring to others' opinions directly and avoiding the discussion here are pretty close to the edge of where this thread could regrettably be closed.
Thank you.


Could be Tony Abbot and only answers them V __ E __ R __ Y .................... S __ L __ O __ W __ L __ Y

I can't comment on this post because I've never been a politician

[barney]

My only comment is 6 months seems very light for a 2nd offence if they want to clean up the sports image.

[3 back the fence]

Penalties are not strong enough you reckon . You will not find a bigger anti drugs advocate then me, but under your system dean Braun gets 5 years for bute ,which has a cut of period of 5 days. Nsw vets and lab,deans vet all gave evidence that the levels found in it horse's system was administered at least 7 days before,but he still got 6 months ,under your system he gets 5 years. Just before everyone shoots me down here who hasn't had a horse that hasn't been treated with bute 7 days from a race.

Why didnt Lance Justice get suspended for using a substance when Smoken up won in NZ????

[allanjg]

just read the penalty report on dean braun...when in the hell are these racing authorities going to get tough on these cheats...brauns second affence and a lousy six months...its no wonder that TAB turnover has dropped on harness racing in victoria when the average punter is not trying to pick the best horse in the race ,but which trainer has the best dope...i have noted that 31 swabs were taken at melton last week and i would like to know just how many of these swabs actually get tested,and just how long does it take before the selected tests take place...feel sorry for the honest owner-trainers putting all their money and effort into the sport just to have to come up against the cheats.....

[Mighty Atom]

And me as well Dan if the horse needs a pain killer he shouldn't be racing.

Hi Greg, many years ago I was given a reasonable type of horse to train but was told it couldn't race without bute. Given that bute back then was generally used in a 144 hr time frame I presume it was administered straight after it raced or next day for it to be safe to race the following week. I wasn't prepared to race the horse on bute thinking there may be a residue in its system. Back then only winners of races were swabbed and I doubt if they were all tested especially if a horse had previously been analysed and was clear. Gave the horse one start without bute and next day it was a virtual cripple. Agree with you and Dan: if a horse needs Phenylbutazone to this extent it should not be racing, for less traumatic conditions ok.

[Mighty Atom]

just read the penalty report on dean braun...when in the hell are these racing authorities going to get tough on these cheats...brauns second affence and a lousy six months...its no wonder that TAB turnover has dropped on harness racing in victoria when the average punter is not trying to pick the best horse in the race ,but which trainer has the best dope...i have noted that 31 swabs were taken at melton last week and i would like to know just how many of these swabs actually get tested,and just how long does it take before the selected tests take place...feel sorry for the honest owner-trainers putting all their money and effort into the sport just to have to come up against the cheats.....

Hi Allan,
I get the perception that the racing authorities appear to be looking after the big names in harness racing and the small hobby owner/ trainers are not in their interest. Harking back to previous times there was a push over here in the west to only have the big name professional trainers in the city, it was a ridiculous notion and was dismissed but I've always suspected that was their mindset - look after the big names. Harness racing is not an honest playing field and never has been and I do agree with you that Dean Braun's six months for a second offence is ludicrous and is doing harness racing a great injustice. I don't necessarily believe that the punters care that much because if they sense a certain advantage coming from a particular trainer they'll back their horses but it does have a deleterious affect on the honest battler.

[Mitch]

I'll probably get berated for saying this but I am going to anyway.

In regards to the Dean Braun case I think many on this site are missing the point. There has to be some common sense applied to issuing penalties and in this case I believe that has happened. From my understanding of the facts and on the balance of probabilities its looks to be a genuine case of mistreatment, not a deliberate act to cheat. Based on that I am comfortable with the penalty given, I also think in cases like this a large fine and no suspension would have been sufficient. Giving him 12 months or longer would be ridiculous.

Dare I say it but I think Dean is one of those trainers that some point fingers at simply because he has a great strike rate. People forget that he pays huge money for a large majority of his horses from NZ. From what I have seen he runs a very professional operation and quite simply his good strike may just be the fact that some people are better at training horses than others.

Let me be clear in saying I don't condone cheating at all. In the case of Dean Braun I don't believe he was trying to cheat. Let me also be clear in saying I don't know Dean Braun and have no affiliation with him whatsoever.

In regards to horses being treated with bute and similar NSAIDs, managing the condition of any high performance human or equine athlete will at times require the help of certain medication/supplements. Provided this medication is administered by a vet or based on the recommendation of a vet I have no issues with it. Every horse I have owned has been treated with bute at some point. I also respect the opinion of Dan and Greg that they choose not to use said substances which is totally their choice as trainers.

[cyclone george]

I'll probably get berated for saying this but I am going to anyway.

In regards to the Dean Braun case I think many on this site are missing the point. There has to be some common sense applied to issuing penalties and in this case I believe that has happened. From my understanding of the facts and on the balance of probabilities its looks to be a genuine case of mistreatment, not a deliberate act to cheat. Based on that I am comfortable with the penalty given, I also think in cases like this a large fine and no suspension would have been sufficient. Giving him 12 months or longer would be ridiculous.

Dare I say it but I think Dean is one of those trainers that some point fingers at simply because he has a great strike rate. People forget that he pays huge money for a large majority of his horses from NZ. From what I have seen he runs a very professional operation and quite simply his good strike may just be the fact that some people are better at training horses than others.

Let me be clear in saying I don't condone cheating at all. In the case of Dean Braun I don't believe he was trying to cheat. Let me also be clear in saying I don't know Dean Braun and have no affiliation with him whatsoever.

In regards to horses being treated with bute and similar NSAIDs, managing the condition of any high performance human or equine athlete will at times require the help of certain medication/supplements. Provided this medication is administered by a vet or based on the recommendation of a vet I have no issues with it. Every horse I have owned has been treated with bute at some point. I also respect the opinion of Dan and Greg that they choose not to use said substances which is totally their choice as trainers.


Mitch you couldn't have said it better. I don't know dean that well , but his business model for harness racing is spot on. For all the success he has he never allows more than 20 horses in the stable,pays his staff well,buy well bred horses and I believe will not buy a horse out of nz without driving it first,spends big money on horses a what I've heard attention to detail is second to none. In Victoria the stable horses of deans,John justice Gary Quinlan and a few others look magnificent and have one thing in common ,these stables have very good strike rates. For all the people on this site applauding Quiny, if memory serves me correctly ( I'm not sure) but didn't one of the boy halls get busted with epo

[Maorisidol]

Very funny thing today re ITMQ,
looked at TAB on my phone to see what time his race was, looked at the comment regards his chances in the race, from memory it said words to the effect of...
"worth consideration!!!!!!!"
Who could possibly have actually typed that into a computer somewhere?

[Messenger]

I'll probably get berated for saying this but I am going to anyway.

In regards to the Dean Braun case I think many on this site are missing the point. There has to be some common sense applied to issuing penalties and in this case I believe that has happened. From my understanding of the facts and on the balance of probabilities its looks to be a genuine case of mistreatment, not a deliberate act to cheat. Based on that I am comfortable with the penalty given, I also think in cases like this a large fine and no suspension would have been sufficient. Giving him 12 months or longer would be ridiculous.

Dare I say it but I think Dean is one of those trainers that some point fingers at simply because he has a great strike rate. People forget that he pays huge money for a large majority of his horses from NZ. From what I have seen he runs a very professional operation and quite simply his good strike may just be the fact that some people are better at training horses than others.

Let me be clear in saying I don't condone cheating at all. In the case of Dean Braun I don't believe he was trying to cheat. Let me also be clear in saying I don't know Dean Braun and have no affiliation with him whatsoever.

In regards to horses being treated with bute and similar NSAIDs, managing the condition of any high performance human or equine athlete will at times require the help of certain medication/supplements. Provided this medication is administered by a vet or based on the recommendation of a vet I have no issues with it. Every horse I have owned has been treated with bute at some point. I also respect the opinion of Dan and Greg that they choose not to use said substances which is totally their choice as trainers.
You make some valid points Mitch especially the fact that he only has good horses in his stable - this should have been the basis of your argument NOT the emboldened part, as there really is a bevy of very knowledgeable trainers out there - some of the older ones that are returning as more or less hobby trainers have 40+yrs of knowledge (and were often top 10 trainers in their hey day)