Concurrent OR Cumulative

[trish]

Concurrent sentencing This is where separate sentences are handed down for each offence committed by an offender – but they are all served simultaneously or together (bulk-discount).
Cumulative sentencing This is a price for every offence committed – no freebies)


Peoples thoughts??

IMO EVERY SINGLE POSITIVE SWAB SHOULD BE CUMULATIVELY
Why should someone get 6 mths for 2,3,4,5 or 6 positive swabs, that stinks. We want to get rid of the blight on harness racing , not reward them.

[Richard prior]

No discounts or Freebies is the only way this needs to be dealt with.

[kung fu man]

All i can say is, well said

[trish]

No discounts or Freebies is the only way this needs to be dealt with.

Hi Richard.
Yes this is a thorn in my side, people cheating is a thorn in my side too, it bugs me that if they get a positive they get discounts, for Gods sake they are being dishonest.
Do the governing authorities think discounts is the way to go, from the people I talk to, its not . I will email Reid Sanders & see what his reply is. As you said something needs to be done. NSW have had that many positive swabs its turning more people away than the authorities realize. I'm 100% sure of that.

[broncobrad]

The way of the world these days Trish...court reports are full of repeat offenders serving concurrent sentences. An easy way out perhaps.


Why these offences should be concurrent just makes no sense. Was (is)? there a fear of a successful appeal that stops the regulators from taking the appropriate hard line against this type of offence?

[trish]

The way of the world these days Trish...court reports are full of repeat offenders serving concurrent sentences. An easy way out perhaps.


Why these offences should be concurrent just makes no sense. Was (is)? there a fear of a successful appeal that stops the regulators from taking the appropriate hard line against this type of offence?


I don't think that's the reason. I really think that there worried about loosing any participants even the cheats!

[Lethal]

Trish,
Until HRNSW or any other controlling body get the judicial system (aka Police prosecutors) to take these fraud charges seriously then some people will always take the punt that the worst they get is a disqualification. BIG DEAL. If they were charged, as they can be, then it just might make a big difference how they thought about what is nothing less than outright cheating and fraud.

[Messenger]

I agree with no discounts.
If they appeal and prove that it was a 'somewha't innocent mistake (new food supplement or whatever) then maybe a slight reduction on appeal but if I am caught speeding 3 times in one day I am pretty sure I am not going to get any discount no matter what

[trish]

I agree Lee but who's going to do it?
With the recent scandals in harness racing who the hell really knows what's going on.
We need someone with authority to get on here & explain the reasoning behind the decisions we are debating.
We are the grass roots of this game & we deserve an answer before we walk away.

[Richard prior]

I agree Lee but who's going to do it?
With the recent scandals in harness racing who the hell really knows what's going on.
We need someone with authority to get on here & explain the reasoning behind the decisions we are debating.
We are the grass roots of this game & we deserve an answer before we walk away.
Exactly right Trish, It would be great to see all of the states get together and set penalties across the board, For EG:If you are caught with a high TCo2 you get X penalty, If you are caught with a horse that has a high Cobalt reading, You get X penalty and so forth, Just get your bloody heads together and come under the HRA banner and deal with the unscrupulous people in a well documented manner and this would also sort the appeal process out.

[Lethal]

Trish,
That's why I don't participate anymore. It's just so obvious that the administrators of the Industry are always in damage control. We need someone with the guts to refer the charges that amount to nothing less than fraud to the DPP. How come Peter Slipper can be found guilty of defrauding the Commonwealth of a few thousand dollars and face a jail term but in Harness Racing all you get is disqualification and then you get your licence back. It doesn't make sense.

[Danno]

I think penalties being served concurrently should be decided on a few mitigating or other factors such as time in sport, time without any convictions, number of infractions involved in the decision, substance, etc.
It would appear that in this case none of those were taken into account, so it would be good to read what were the determining factors in the penalties and how they are to be served.

Looked pretty damn lenient to me!

[kung fu man]

Honestly why would you give someone who uses crap like meth thier license back at all and that goes for C/C as well

[Viv Strangman]

I hate cheats as much as anyone else but the way the harness racing authorities approach positives to drugs is a major part of the problem.
They start from a default position that they don't have to prove that the drugs were knowingly given by the accused.
Their mantra is a horse must be presented to race free from a list of drugs they have deemed to be performance enhancing.
Circumstances play no part in determining guilt which is all good and fine in a harness racing tribunal but won't last two minutes in court.
So the harness racing stewards find them guilty but then hit them with a wet bus ticket because they know if they come down too hard they are all off to the courts and there they have to prove that it was deliberate, not accidental.
I would love them to take some of these repeat offenders on if only to send a message to everybody in the industry but it appears that the harness racing authorities have accepted the current position as the best that they can do and have no inclination to change their current stance on this matter.
So as everyone can see, harness racing continues to slowly wither and die and the integrity issue is a big part of that.

[Race For Fun]

Time for life time bans for repeat offenders. One thing I don't understand is the fact that if harness racing is the drug offenders main source of income that is taken into consideration. If you work at a bank and defraud the bank you are sacked, face court and would not be employed by another bank later.

[Messenger]

I hate cheats as much as anyone else but the way the harness racing authorities approach positives to drugs is a major part of the problem.
They start from a default position that they don't have to prove that the drugs were knowingly given by the accused.
Their mantra is a horse must be presented to race free from a list of drugs they have deemed to be performance enhancing.
Circumstances play no part in determining guilt which is all good and fine in a harness racing tribunal but won't last two minutes in court.
So the harness racing stewards find them guilty but then hit them with a wet bus ticket because they know if they come down too hard they are all off to the courts and there they have to prove that it was deliberate, not accidental.
I would love them to take some of these repeat offenders on if only to send a message to everybody in the industry but it appears that the harness racing authorities have accepted the current position as the best that they can do and have no inclination to change their current stance on this matter.
So as everyone can see, harness racing continues to slowly wither and die and the integrity issue is a big part of that.

I agree with you Viv but you can see why they start with this default position
How do you prove that the substance was knowingly given by the accused unless you have either an admission of guilt, credible witnesses willing to testify or video evidence.
Even a repeat offender is always going to be able to claim some sort of conspiracy eg. An enemy of mine has got through my security at night and given the substance to set me up

[trish]

Time for life time bans for repeat offenders. One thing I don't understand is the fact that if harness racing is the drug offenders main source of income that is taken into consideration. If you work at a bank and defraud the bank you are sacked, face court and would not be employed by another bank later.

Good point Toni.
It should be THAT simple.

[Messenger]

Good point Toni.
It should be THAT simple.
As Viv pointed out, I don't think it can be that simple because we are not proving that they gave the substance and therefore they would take it to a court of law to have it appealed.
I think it might need to be tested in court as to whether we can disqualify a person or refuse to license a person

[trish]

As Viv pointed out, I don't think it can be that simple because we are not proving that they gave the substance and therefore they would take it to a court of law to have it appealed.
I think it might need to be tested in court as to whether we can disqualify a person or refuse to license a person


I understand Kev, maybe I should have put I wish it was that simple, just hate the cheats Kev, for their part in destroying our game.
The guy from the Meadowlands has the right approach.

[Viv Strangman]

Drugs will kill this industry.I have a friend involved in admin in harness racing in New Zealand and they know the cheats are winning. Everytime they close one avenue off, the drug cheats find a new one. I thought it was bad but not as bad as explained to me yesterday. Evidently the new drug is Cresp which does the same job as EPO. By the time the authorities get on top of that one, the drug cheats will be on to something else. Makes you want to just walk away.

[trish]

It sure does Viv, I've been in this game on & off for a long time & I have never seen it like this, the improvement shown in so many horses is terminal for the industry. One thing that really upsets us is the fact the authority aren't keeping us up to date with what they are doing to try & stop it, so you really don't know if there is any hope.

[trish]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darbepoetin_alfa


Both ARANESP & CRESP are in this.
Cresp was approved in INDIA.

[Mighty Atom]

So does this mean that every trainer who dominates with horses from their stables automatically becomes suspicious? It is something that is always in the back of my mind and on occasions I have been proven right. The fact that a negative swab result has been returned does not necessarily remove the suspicion. However, you had better get used to it because I don't think any harness racing authority would allow anything that would portray them in a bad light.

[trish]

However, you had better get used to it because I don't think any harness racing authority would allow anything that would portray them in a bad light.


Hi Ron, not sure what you mean by that last statement, it doesn't seem to make sense . We don't have to get used to anything, we don't need harness racing, harness racing NEEDS people like us.

[Messenger]

So does this mean that every trainer who dominates with horses from their stables automatically becomes suspicious?

That is how it should be for the stewards as we need them to be over diligent

It is something that is always in the back of my mind and on occasions I have been proven right.

Sadly most of us have begun to think like that but it is something that the industry needs to overcome to restore confidence

The fact that a negative swab result has been returned does not necessarily remove the suspicion.

Unless they hold swabs for a couple of years we cannot be sure that the cheats are not one step ahead

However, you had better get used to it because I don't think any harness racing authority would allow anything that would portray them in a bad light


It is somewhat understandable that the authorities do not want negative publicity.

[Race For Fun]

There is no denying Viv's comments:
(Viv hope you don't mind that I put them in point form)


Drugs will kill this industry.
And they know the cheats are winning.
Everytime they close one avenue off, the drug cheats find a new one.
By the time the authorities get on top of that one, the drug cheats will be on to something else.

I fear that these points are right on the money. I have to believe that the stewards are doing everything within their power to catch the cheats (I am not implying anything other than my opinion). Authorities around the world have the same problem of chasing/catching up to drug cheats. What a waste of funds that could go into racing but have to be spent chasing the cheats. I wonder where the industry will be in 10 years time? I can not think of anything that has been a bigger threat to the survival of the industry. Sorry I think I'm just rambling, I just wanted to put it on paper..............

[Mister JayKO]

Most people are on the same page here. Look back over time of the stables that "dominated" for a period, many have more than question marks against them - positive swabs or not. My view is that administrators take the view that if they were ever able to get ahead of the game just once, they wouldn't go through with it - the damage they fear would be too great. I would counter that the damage being done at the moment will continue to erode the industry, the people that actually make it tick will walk away. The gentleman who taught me virtually everything I know about the sport and let me drive his horses at every opportunity is now a broken man and disillusioned with the sport. He's tasted the highs, but now mostly the lows. A man who despises drug cheats has over recent times lost a few north - where the horses have turned into lear jets. I know the horses well - but the ones racing now are not the same ones that he had. Somewhere in a thread I heard "Indian Herbs" mentioned - must be the new name, bottom line, whether it's EPO, Blue Magic, Aranesp, Cresp, Milkshakes, Cobalt and now Ice, (they are only the ones I am aware of in my lifetime) the chemists will always be ahead of the game. I am very cynical with regard to the current "dominators" that if I drew up a family tree of stables that I suspect aren't all 100% legit - in each case I can trace strong links back to the good old USA and if you follow my lead that we tend to lag 6-12 months or more behind them just check out where the sport is headed there.

[2minuteman]

Should we be thinking a bit wider with the fight against dopers?
I think so,some sports are now having "blood passports" where the swab is actually taken at a time when it is unlikely that the gear is being used.The blood profile subsequently gained then becomes the bench mark and if a subsequent swab shows a deviation from that norm it is incumbent on the "swabee" to explain what caused the deviation
Moves the onus of proof to where it should be. Discuss.

[Mighty Atom]

However, you had better get used to it because I don't think any harness racing authority would allow anything that would portray them in a bad light.


Hi Ron, not sure what you mean by that last statement, it doesn't seem to make sense . We don't have to get used to anything, we don't need harness racing, harness racing NEEDS people like us.

Hi Trish,
What I meant (and I'm probably being cynical) that if any major doping scandal arose it may not even see the light of day because harness racing authorities know it would be the end as far as the betting public are concerned. I found this out on a personal level training horses in the 80's all the honest trainers knew that we were not competing against the major stables on a level playing field but there was absolutely nothing we could do about it. It may be an overstatement, but I'm not so sure.

[Mighty Atom]

Most people are on the same page here. Look back over time of the stables that "dominated" for a period, many have more than question marks against them - positive swabs or not. My view is that administrators take the view that if they were ever able to get ahead of the game just once, they wouldn't go through with it - the damage they fear would be too great. I would counter that the damage being done at the moment will continue to erode the industry, the people that actually make it tick will walk away. The gentleman who taught me virtually everything I know about the sport and let me drive his horses at every opportunity is now a broken man and disillusioned with the sport. He's tasted the highs, but now mostly the lows. A man who despises drug cheats has over recent times lost a few north - where the horses have turned into lear jets. I know the horses well - but the ones racing now are not the same ones that he had. Somewhere in a thread I heard "Indian Herbs" mentioned - must be the new name, bottom line, whether it's EPO, Blue Magic, Aranesp, Cresp, Milkshakes, Cobalt and now Ice, (they are only the ones I am aware of in my lifetime) the chemists will always be ahead of the game. I am very cynical with regard to the current "dominators" that if I drew up a family tree of stables that I suspect aren't all 100% legit - in each case I can trace strong links back to the good old USA and if you follow my lead that we tend to lag 6-12 months or more behind them just check out where the sport is headed there.

Hi Stu,
agree to everything you've said there and I can add another couple from the 80's to the list of cocktails you have there - Sublimaze and Palfium.

[Messenger]

We need a Hall of Shame as well as a Hall of Fame.
Where does one find a historical list of suspensions
When making breeding decisions one needs to know if a family's star horse was a great pedigree or great 'gear'

I would start such a thread but it would have to be 100% accurate and even then our forum's administration would still be entitled to close it down

My degree of dedication to the sport has waxed and waned over 45yrs but it still sticks with me from long ago that there was a great American trainer of 2yo's who used to move his stable on at the end of each season because "I don't want to compete with the chemists". It was his thinking that said chemists could have less advantage at this age unless they were bloody good horsemen too

[trish]

I heard a race caller welcome back a cheat recently & how great it was to see him winning..........that made my stomach turn, for the love of god guys they are the scum of the earth, its stinks they even get their licence back , let alone welcome them back publicly, they are filth, and because of them in the not to distant future, race callers won't have a job because of them. But they are laughing at all the honest folk all the way to the bank. Its so obvious who is cheating. You don't have to look that far.
We have a couple of nice horses out the back paddock & we were asked the other day why weren't they in work, all we could say was why bother, we will only bust them chasing the cheats.

[trish]

Most people are on the same page here. Look back over time of the stables that "dominated" for a period, many have more than question marks against them - positive swabs or not. My view is that administrators take the view that if they were ever able to get ahead of the game just once, they wouldn't go through with it - the damage they fear would be too great. I would counter that the damage being done at the moment will continue to erode the industry, the people that actually make it tick will walk away. The gentleman who taught me virtually everything I know about the sport and let me drive his horses at every opportunity is now a broken man and disillusioned with the sport. He's tasted the highs, but now mostly the lows. A man who despises drug cheats has over recent times lost a few north - where the horses have turned into lear jets. I know the horses well - but the ones racing now are not the same ones that he had. Somewhere in a thread I heard "Indian Herbs" mentioned - must be the new name, bottom line, whether it's EPO, Blue Magic, Aranesp, Cresp, Milkshakes, Cobalt and now Ice, (they are only the ones I am aware of in my lifetime) the chemists will always be ahead of the game. I am very cynical with regard to the current "dominators" that if I drew up a family tree of stables that I suspect aren't all 100% legit - in each case I can trace strong links back to the good old USA and if you follow my lead that we tend to lag 6-12 months or more behind them just check out where the sport is headed there.

Excellent post Stu, it would seem as though you have read my thoughts. Well said.

[trish]

Should we be thinking a bit wider with the fight against dopers?
I think so,some sports are now having "blood passports" where the swab is actually taken at a time when it is unlikely that the gear is being used.The blood profile subsequently gained then becomes the bench mark and if a subsequent swab shows a deviation from that norm it is incumbent on the "swabee" to explain what caused the deviation
Moves the onus of proof to where it should be. Discuss.

Great thinking Ron, I wonder weather it would be possible to come up with a maximum level for a red blood cell count, like they have with bi-card & cobalt.

[trish]

Hi Trish,
What I meant (and I'm probably being cynical) that if any major doping scandal arose it may not even see the light of day because harness racing authorities know it would be the end as far as the betting public are concerned. I found this out on a personal level training horses in the 80's all the honest trainers knew that we were not competing against the major stables on a level playing field but there was absolutely nothing we could do about it. It may be an overstatement, but I'm not so sure.

No worries Rod . I think the big difference now is that the existence of harness racing depends on it . If they sit on their hands they'll end up as security guards at the gallops

[Mister JayKO]

I heard a race caller welcome back a cheat recently & how great it was to see him winning..........that made my stomach turn, for the love of god guys they are the scum of the earth, its stinks they even get their licence back , let alone welcome them back publicly, they are filth, and because of them in the not to distant future, race callers won't have a job because of them. But they are laughing at all the honest folk all the way to the bank. Its so obvious who is cheating. You don't have to look that far.
We have a couple of nice horses out the back paddock & we were asked the other day why weren't they in work, all we could say was why bother, we will only bust them chasing the cheats.
The trainer who recently got a significant spell from stewards in sa for meth returned from a similar spell some years ago. At one stage he used to drive in races and it was seriously scary stuff, he walked into the betting ring at Terang with a wad of cash ready to unload on his latest charge, the local bookie (remember them) said to him how long you back for this time "don't know" was the response.

[Mister JayKO]

We need a Hall of Shame as well as a Hall of Fame.
Where does one find a historical list of suspensions
When making breeding decisions one needs to know if a family's star horse was a great pedigree or great 'gear'

I would start such a thread but it would have to be 100% accurate and even then our forum's administration would still be entitled to close it down

My degree of dedication to the sport has waxed and waned over 45yrs but it still sticks with me from long ago that there was a great American trainer of 2yo's who used to move his stable on at the end of each season because "I don't want to compete with the chemists". It was his thinking that said chemists could have less advantage at this age unless they were bloody good horsemen too
Go back to the failed stallions from the us and usually you find he was trained by a chemist.

[teecee]

While people will go on about cheats and cheating there is neither a desire nor ability to prove beyond the reasonable doubt that actually cheating is taking place. when these things have been going on since year dot in the history of Harness racing both in your country and mine. I'm sure your father and grandfather like mine could relay a few good stories on the topic from their era yet Harness racing continues to this day. How then is integrity or lack of it the doomsday scenario I read about in this thread and others similar from mainly the same contributors?

[trish]

While people will go on about cheats and cheating there is neither a desire nor ability to prove beyond the reasonable doubt that actually cheating is taking place. when these things have been going on since year dot in the history of Harness racing both in your country and mine. I'm sure your father and grandfather like mine could relay a few good stories on the topic from their era yet Harness racing continues to this day. How then is integrity or lack of it the doomsday scenario I read about in this thread and others similar from mainly the same contributors?


Hi Tony, the fact that there have been over 60 positive swabs in NSW alone over the last couple of years is a pretty good indication that some people may be cheating.
Wotta ya reckon!
The doomsday scenario has been predicted by experts. Facts are facts. The industry is melting away.
You look at the figures & tell me nothing is wrong.

[Messenger]

Trish we are undoubtedly in challenging times but as Tony points out - we have always had cheats. We have lived with the nickname the Red Hots for decades. Whether we come out stronger or weaker I am unsure but I liken it to the sharemarket where for every expert predicting boom there is an expert predicting bust

[teecee]

Below is a partial transcript of a hearing of a breach of the prohibited substance rules.
The defendant pleads GUILTY
From what I have read here and in other related threads the defendant is a CHEAT.
Facts are facts we are told.
But are they? Can it be that not all people convicted under the drugs rules are in fact CHEATS?
IMO, some definitely are, some possibly are, some probably not, others definitely not.
IMO the rules are not catching the definitely ares. You and the general public are only hearing of the others.

Rules:

4004(1), (2) and (4) (http://www.jca.org.nz/non-race-day-hearings/non-raceday-inquiry-hrnz-v-afh-hunter-4-january-2011-decision-dated-12-january-2011/relatedrules?rule=4004(1), (2) and (4))


Information Number:

63982 Informant

Mr NNNN - Racecourse Inspector


Repondent(s)/Other parties:

Mr AAAA


Decision:

BEFORE THE JUDICIAL CONTROL AUTHORITY
UNDER THE RACING ACT 2003
AND IN THE MATTER of the New Zealand Rules of Harness Racing
BETWEEN HARNESS RACING NEW ZEALAND
Informant
AND MR HHHH, Public Trainer
Defendant

Information: No. 63982
Judicial Committee: Prof (Chairman), (Member)
Appearing: Mr NNNN, Racecourse Inspector (for the informant)
Defendant: in person
Venue: RRRR Racecourse
Date of Hearing:
Date of Decision:
__________________________________________________ ___________________
DECISION OF JUDICIAL COMMITTEE
__________________________________________________ ___________________
[1] Mr HHHH appears before this Judicial Committee on a charge of presenting a horse to race with a prohibited substance in its system in breach of Rule 1004(1), (2) and (4).
[2] These Rules, which are preceded by the heading “Prohibited Substance Rules”, read relevantly:
(1) A horse shall be presented for a race free of prohibited substances.
(2) Where a horse is taken, or is to be taken, to a racecourse for the purpose of engaging in a race otherwise than in accordance with sub-rule (1) the trainer of the horse commits a breach of these Rules.
(4) A breach of these rules under sub-rule (2) … is committed regardless of the circumstances in which the prohibited substance came to be present in or on the horse.
[3] The penalties for a breach of these rules are set out in Rule 1004 which provides in subss (7) and (8):
(7) Every person who commits a breach of sub-rule (2) … shall be liable to:
(a) a fine not exceeding $10,000 and /or
(b) be disqualified or suspended from holding or obtaining a licence for any specific period not exceeding five years.
(8) Any horse connected with a breach of sub-rule (1) [or] (2) shall be disqualified from any race entered and/or liable to a period of disqualification not exceeding five years.
Mr HHHH has admitted the breach. We thus find the charge proved.
Penalty:



Decision as to penalty
[25] We fine Mr HHHH the sum of $450.
[26] In addition, we order pursuant to Rule 1004(8) that F***** L***** be disqualified from Race 10 at the T****** Harness Racing Club’s meeting on.
We further order that the placings be amended and that the stakes money be paid out accordingly.
[27] The matter has been heard on a raceday. There is no order for costs.


Okay Mr HHHH has admitted breaching the drugs rules. To many here is just another drugs cheat. He should be banned for life. He is the reason Harness racing is on its last legs.
OR IS there another reason.


Having read this post I have left a link to the full hearing and the full circumstances of his case.
You decide if he and EVERY Other person charged under the prohibited substance laws in either NZ or Australia is really infact a CHEAT.

[teecee]

A Cheat or not...the full story


http://www.jca.org.nz/non-race-day-hearings/non-raceday-inquiry-hrnz-v-afh-hunter-4-january-2011-decision-dated-12-january-2011/?searchterm=A Hunter*


PS..
The drug at the centre of this case has subsequently been removed from the list of prohibited substances!!

[trish]

Trish we are undoubtedly in challenging times but as Tony points out - we have always had cheats. We have lived with the nickname the Red Hots for decades. Whether we come out stronger or weaker I am unsure but I liken it to the sharemarket where for every expert predicting boom there is an expert predicting bust


Hi Kev .That is correct but not like it is now . The share market at least has good days . We predict doom if nothing is done and the figures support this . We're not saying that it is beyond help , but we see the grass roots people walking away . We see people dogging their mares , gear being sold off , tracks overgrowing , owners getting out . We hear the absolute disgust and hate that people have for the industry every time you talk to them . Once they're gone that's it .

[trish]

Having read this post I have left a link to the full hearing and the full circumstances of his case.
You decide if he and EVERY Other person charged under the prohibited substance laws in either NZ or Australia is really infact a CHEAT.

I never said all positive swabs were cheats , but even if you allowed for a couple of accidents in the feed barn its still over 60 in NSW and there can't be that many accidents

[teecee]

I think it is very clear even to the uninitiated that there is a clear and equivocal link by inference between people charged with breaches of the prohibited substance rules and the label of a Cheat on this forum.
Trish this is not directly related to you or your views. It is for all to consider what has been widesweeping generalised posts across the forum about Cheats and cheating.
While there may well be as you say 60 cases in NSW, I see nothing within those 60 cases to say how many are actually cheating or some other circumstance. a guilty plea is often the easiest way out when you cant prove or don't have the resources to prove circumstances. How many of these 60 show no consideration of the rules and are deserving of the heaviest sanctions applicable. How many actually are small time or hard working trainers who have the same sentiments as yourself and others on here who yearn for a level playing field,(whatever that means) but have been caught out by giving their horse too much of a prepared formula raising for example their TCO2 level.


There may be 60 positives in NSW and I agree there is most unlikely 60 or possibly even 30 (for the sake of numbers) accidents.
What is more likely is that neither you nor I anyone else contributing to this debate from either angle know how many are cheats and how many are not.
What is clear is that the majority of people contributing to this debate are of the view that the majority of people caught up in drugs charges are cheats and that is without any basis in fact. I say there is no basis in fact because the authorities have no need to prove an act of cheating even to get a conviction under the rules.
If they don't need the evidence and thus don't produce it, I ask where our contributors get their evidence of cheating from?

[Mister JayKO]

With respect the "Officer Barbrady" approach isn't going to fix the problem or the perception, if the Lance Armstrong case taught you nothing else other than you don't need a positive test to be a drug cheat then nothing will. Like many posters the industry needs to go cap in hand to the police and government authorities and ask for assistance in terms of prosecuting offenders on both levels. Too many good people are walking away because of the unfair playing field.

[Messenger]

Apart from the waste of resources that policing drugs necessitates it is the breeding angle that irks me the most - how can one know if apparent good family connections are kosher or corrupt?

Of course most sympathy has to go to honest toilers who suspect they are trailing in modified horses

I think those policing the sport have to be happy to be seen as the enemy - have it be known that we suspect everyone "so do not take offence"
We need more than retention barns before big races. We need a couple of roving stewards that attach themselves to whatever stable they wish for as long as they wish and who attach stable cameras for when they leave for the day

[trish]

I think it is very clear even to the uninitiated that there is a clear and equivocal link by inference between people charged with breaches of the prohibited substance rules and the label of a Cheat on this forum.
Trish this is not directly related to you or your views. It is for all to consider what has been widesweeping generalised posts across the forum about Cheats and cheating.
While there may well be as you say 60 cases in NSW, I see nothing within those 60 cases to say how many are actually cheating or some other circumstance. a guilty plea is often the easiest way out when you cant prove or don't have the resources to prove circumstances. How many of these 60 show no consideration of the rules and are deserving of the heaviest sanctions applicable. How many actually are small time or hard working trainers who have the same sentiments as yourself and others on here who yearn for a level playing field,(whatever that means) but have been caught out by giving their horse too much of a prepared formula raising for example their TCO2 level.


There may be 60 positives in NSW and I agree there is most unlikely 60 or possibly even 30 (for the sake of numbers) accidents.
What is more likely is that neither you nor I anyone else contributing to this debate from either angle know how many are cheats and how many are not.
What is clear is that the majority of people contributing to this debate are of the view that the majority of people caught up in drugs charges are cheats and that is without any basis in fact. I say there is no basis in fact because the authorities have no need to prove an act of cheating even to get a conviction under the rules.
If they don't need the evidence and thus don't produce it, I ask where our contributors get their evidence of cheating from?

Hi Tony . Years ago everyone gave their horses some bute after they raced to help them recover and eat . That would get them a positive today and no they are not cheats . A lot of trainers threw a handful of bi carb on their horses feed and still do but I don't consider them cheats . Most trainers give their horses something on race day whether it be vitamins or supplements. According to the rules they are breaking these rules but , still , I don't consider them cheats . We ALL know who the cheats are , even you . If it could be proved we wouldn't have these posts . Most of those 60 were just trying to keep up with the real cheats . A few nasties amongst them but generally these guys are desperate . Maybe it's just not so bad where you are

[Smoken]

And who knows what other drugs biochemists are creating that aren't traceable ATM... It never will end, not as long as there are human beings...

[2minuteman]

Great thinking Ron, I wonder weather it would be possible to come up with a maximum level for a red blood cell count, like they have with bi-card & cobalt.
Hi,Trish,this is apparently a major part of what is to be done.I can hear the reason for not doing it,"it will cost money!"as if the current situation is not.

[HISGEN65]

good post Trish...spot on

[2minuteman]

Trish,if you are interested,
An athlete biological passport is an individual, electronic record for professional athletes, in which profiles of biological markers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biological_markers) of doping and results of doping tests (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doping_test) are collated over a period of time. Doping violations can be detected by noting variances from an athlete’s established levels outside permissible limits, rather than testing for and identifying illegal substances (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illegal_substances).[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biological_passport#cite_note-1)
Although the terminology athlete passport is recent, the use of biological markers of doping has a long history in anti-doping. Maybe the first marker of doping, that tries to detect a prohibited substance not based on its presence in urine or blood, but through the induced deviations in biological parameters, is the so-called testosterone over epitestosterone ratio (T/E). The T/E has been used by sports authorities since the beginning of the 1980s to detect anabolic steroids (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anabolic_steroid) in urine samples. A decade later, in 1997, markers of blood doping were introduced by some international federations, such as the Union Cycliste Internationale (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Union_Cycliste_Internationale) and the Federation Internationale de Ski (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federation_Internationale_de_Ski), to deter the abuse of recombinant erythropoietin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erythropoietin) that was undetectable by direct means at that time. It is only in 2002 that the paradigm to use biological markers of doping took the terminology athlete passport. The merits of this testing paradigm were exposed in the scientific literature [2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biological_passport#cite_note-2) and the terminology adopted by the World Anti-Doping agency.[3] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biological_passport#cite_note-3)
Many believe[who? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Words_to_watch#Unsupported_attributions)] that the athlete passport provides an excellent alternative to ensure fairness in elite sports. While a new drug test (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drug_test) must be developed and validated for each new drug, the main advantage of the athlete passport is that it is based on the stability of the physiology of the human being. New drugs are produced at an unprecedented pace today and there is often a lag of several years between the availability of a new drug and the application of an effective detection method. On the contrary, the physiology of the human being remains the same through several generations and all biomarkers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biomarker) developed today in the athlete passport will remain valid for at least several decades. For example, the blood module of the passport is already sensitive today to any new future form of recombinant erythropoietin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erythropoietin), as well as to any form of gene doping (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gene_doping) that will enhance oxygen transfer to the muscles. Also, while a negative drug test (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drug_test) does not necessarily mean that the athlete did not dope, the athlete can present his/her passport at the beginning of a competition to attest that he/she will compete in his/her natural, unaltered condition.
The athlete passport has received a lot of attention when its blood module was established at the beginning of the 2008 racing season by the Union Cycliste Internationale (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Union_Cycliste_Internationale).[4] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biological_passport#cite_note-4) In May 2008 the UCI revealed that 23 riders were under suspicion of doping following the first phase of blood tests conducted under the new biological passport.[5] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biological_passport#cite_note-5) The blood module of the athlete passport aims to detect any form of blood doping (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blood_doping), the steroid module any form of doping with anabolic steroid (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anabolic_steroid) and the endocrine module any modification of the growth hormone (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Growth_hormone)/IGF-1 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IGF-1) axis. Each of these modules are however at different steps of development, validation and application in sports.

[trish]

Trish,if you are interested,
An athlete biological passport is an individual, electronic record for professional athletes, in which profiles of biological markers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biological_markers) of doping and results of doping tests (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doping_test) are collated over a period of time. Doping violations can be detected by noting variances from an athlete’s established levels outside permissible limits, rather than testing for and identifying illegal substances (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illegal_substances).[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biological_passport#cite_note-1)
Although the terminology athlete passport is recent, the use of biological markers of doping has a long history in anti-doping. Maybe the first marker of doping, that tries to detect a prohibited substance not based on its presence in urine or blood, but through the induced deviations in biological parameters, is the so-called testosterone over epitestosterone ratio (T/E). The T/E has been used by sports authorities since the beginning of the 1980s to detect anabolic steroids (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anabolic_steroid) in urine samples. A decade later, in 1997, markers of blood doping were introduced by some international federations, such as the Union Cycliste Internationale (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Union_Cycliste_Internationale) and the Federation Internationale de Ski (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federation_Internationale_de_Ski), to deter the abuse of recombinant erythropoietin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erythropoietin) that was undetectable by direct means at that time. It is only in 2002 that the paradigm to use biological markers of doping took the terminology athlete passport. The merits of this testing paradigm were exposed in the scientific literature [2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biological_passport#cite_note-2) and the terminology adopted by the World Anti-Doping agency.[3] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biological_passport#cite_note-3)
Many believe[who? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Words_to_watch#Unsupported_attributions)] that the athlete passport provides an excellent alternative to ensure fairness in elite sports. While a new drug test (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drug_test) must be developed and validated for each new drug, the main advantage of the athlete passport is that it is based on the stability of the physiology of the human being. New drugs are produced at an unprecedented pace today and there is often a lag of several years between the availability of a new drug and the application of an effective detection method. On the contrary, the physiology of the human being remains the same through several generations and all biomarkers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biomarker) developed today in the athlete passport will remain valid for at least several decades. For example, the blood module of the passport is already sensitive today to any new future form of recombinant erythropoietin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erythropoietin), as well as to any form of gene doping (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gene_doping) that will enhance oxygen transfer to the muscles. Also, while a negative drug test (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drug_test) does not necessarily mean that the athlete did not dope, the athlete can present his/her passport at the beginning of a competition to attest that he/she will compete in his/her natural, unaltered condition.
The athlete passport has received a lot of attention when its blood module was established at the beginning of the 2008 racing season by the Union Cycliste Internationale (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Union_Cycliste_Internationale).[4] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biological_passport#cite_note-4) In May 2008 the UCI revealed that 23 riders were under suspicion of doping following the first phase of blood tests conducted under the new biological passport.[5] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biological_passport#cite_note-5) The blood module of the athlete passport aims to detect any form of blood doping (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blood_doping), the steroid module any form of doping with anabolic steroid (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anabolic_steroid) and the endocrine module any modification of the growth hormone (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Growth_hormone)/IGF-1 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IGF-1) axis. Each of these modules are however at different steps of development, validation and application in sports.


This is exactly what is needed Ron, lets hope it comes to fruition.

I posted this on another thread but putting it here as well.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/racing/10375251/Controversial-bicarbonate-rule-change-scrapped

"Sanders said 4710 TCO2 tests had been done in the last 12 months and HRNSW had records of almost every horse racing in the state."

If they have this, cobalt & a RBC passport for every horse then maybe we will get somewhere regarding a level playing field.

[trish]

I just re read this article from NZ & it states this

Since HRNZ revealed it wanted to raise the TCO2 threshold level but seek mandatory two-year disqualifications for first offenders, five year bans for second offenders and 10 year bans for those with three strikes, there had been widespread comdemnation from trainers

I find it hard to fathom why trainers, if they were running clean, wouldn't applaud this move instead of oppose it.

[teecee]

I just re read this article from NZ & it states this

Since HRNZ revealed it wanted to raise the TCO2 threshold level but seek mandatory two-year disqualifications for first offenders, five year bans for second offenders and 10 year bans for those with three strikes, there had been widespread comdemnation from trainers

I find it hard to fathom why trainers, if they were running clean, wouldn't applaud this move instead of oppose it.


A remit to this effect was to be put before the annual conference of clubs this past weekend. Trainers and drivers have only one voice at conference.
The remit was withdrawn by the sponsor HRNZ. Clearly more than trainers didn't like the scenario when upon analysis of the proposal...
a.. It is the responsibility of the JCA to determine penalties for rule breaches in NZ.
They are empowered for this within the Racing Act and the NZ Bill of Rights. A standard blanket penalty gives neither RIU nor JCA any movement on penalty considerations on a case by case basis.
b.. To impose a standard penalty as suggested and for such to withstand any scrutiny requires a greater standard of proof than is currently applied.


The makeup of the rule is being reconsidered by those interested parties.

[trish]

Thanks TeeCee very informative.

[trish]

Trish,if you are interested,
An athlete biological passport is an individual, electronic record for professional athletes, in which profiles of biological markers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biological_markers) of doping and results of doping tests (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doping_test) are collated over a period of time. Doping violations can be detected by noting variances from an athlete’s established levels outside permissible limits, rather than testing for and identifying illegal substances (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illegal_substances).[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biological_passport#cite_note-1)
Although the terminology athlete passport is recent, the use of biological markers of doping has a long history in anti-doping. Maybe the first marker of doping, that tries to detect a prohibited substance not based on its presence in urine or blood, but through the induced deviations in biological parameters, is the so-called testosterone over epitestosterone ratio (T/E). The T/E has been used by sports authorities since the beginning of the 1980s to detect anabolic steroids (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anabolic_steroid) in urine samples. A decade later, in 1997, markers of blood doping were introduced by some international federations, such as the Union Cycliste Internationale (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Union_Cycliste_Internationale) and the Federation Internationale de Ski (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federation_Internationale_de_Ski), to deter the abuse of recombinant erythropoietin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erythropoietin) that was undetectable by direct means at that time. It is only in 2002 that the paradigm to use biological markers of doping took the terminology athlete passport. The merits of this testing paradigm were exposed in the scientific literature [2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biological_passport#cite_note-2) and the terminology adopted by the World Anti-Doping agency.[3] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biological_passport#cite_note-3)
Many believe[who? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Words_to_watch#Unsupported_attributions)] that the athlete passport provides an excellent alternative to ensure fairness in elite sports. While a new drug test (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drug_test) must be developed and validated for each new drug, the main advantage of the athlete passport is that it is based on the stability of the physiology of the human being. New drugs are produced at an unprecedented pace today and there is often a lag of several years between the availability of a new drug and the application of an effective detection method. On the contrary, the physiology of the human being remains the same through several generations and all biomarkers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biomarker) developed today in the athlete passport will remain valid for at least several decades. For example, the blood module of the passport is already sensitive today to any new future form of recombinant erythropoietin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erythropoietin), as well as to any form of gene doping (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gene_doping) that will enhance oxygen transfer to the muscles. Also, while a negative drug test (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drug_test) does not necessarily mean that the athlete did not dope, the athlete can present his/her passport at the beginning of a competition to attest that he/she will compete in his/her natural, unaltered condition.
The athlete passport has received a lot of attention when its blood module was established at the beginning of the 2008 racing season by the Union Cycliste Internationale (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Union_Cycliste_Internationale).[4] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biological_passport#cite_note-4) In May 2008 the UCI revealed that 23 riders were under suspicion of doping following the first phase of blood tests conducted under the new biological passport.[5] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biological_passport#cite_note-5) The blood module of the athlete passport aims to detect any form of blood doping (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blood_doping), the steroid module any form of doping with anabolic steroid (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anabolic_steroid) and the endocrine module any modification of the growth hormone (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Growth_hormone)/IGF-1 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IGF-1) axis. Each of these modules are however at different steps of development, validation and application in sports.



Hi Ron, A tiny two sentences in The Gazette August issue page 32 (UHRA NEWS with Wally Mann), says "HRNSW also advised that blood profiling of horses is in process".

[teecee]

http://www.hrnz.co.nz/images/Notice_of_Amendment_to_TC02_Rule_for_Website.pdf

[The Form Student]

Teecee, Am I reading this right, that by going from 35 to 36 mmol of TCO2, i.e. an increase of 1 mmol, that the degree of making a false positive error will reduce from 1 in 15,793 chances to 1 in 2,021,729! I'm no statistician, but that is a massive reduction in the error rate?? That is a 128 times improvement for less errors.......Just imagine if they went to 40..........no one could ever challenge their being an error!
I note that they are also not inclined to go to cumulative penalties!

[teecee]

Figures are renowned as the most manipulative commodity the human race ever invented.
As stated the penalty regime is still under review.
I can only remember one case of multi charges since TCO2 became an issue. In that case the JCA did impose a cumulative disq sentence later reduced on appeal to lesser cumulative time plus a fine.

[teecee]

Looking at the concept of Cumulative and Concurrent......
Specifically charges 4,5,6


http://www.harness.org.au/news/uploads/RDB%20appeal%20decision%20Abbott%2010122014.pdf