NSW "Prizemoney!"

[trish]

Honestly how is this any good for harness racing in NSW , really IMO its wrong. I think more & more people will walk away thinking their horse are not good enough for
Menangle as that's where the better money will always be.
Penrith's meeting a fortnight ago 9 races racing for $47,000.00.
Penrith meeting this Thursday 7 races racing for $33,500.00.
Bloody backward step by far.
Why should anyone HAVE to race for $4000 again? Because they are forced too. In this day and age I think it is pathetic. Trainers work their arse off & for what???
Whoever brought this crap in, have you worked 7 days a week, 52 weeks a year training horses in the mud, rain, hail or sunshine . Sand in your eyes, ears and every other part of your body.....doubt it!!!!!
Are you trying to KILL Penrith or trying to force numbers up at Menangle? I think this is forcing more horses just to be cannon fodder.

[kung fu man]

Last week at Bankstown we got balloted out a race it started with 8 runners 1 scratching and 1 positive swab withdrawal, no reserves or we would have run, we still had to pay to have the horse trained.Tomorrow Menangle the c0 has 5 runners racing for $7000 and the c0-c2 has 5 runners racing for $7000 we are racing at Penrith for $4000 needless to say then the horse will probably be turned out when he is improving and could race on but it seems whatever way we go we are heading down a deadend street ,PS could buy Weasel tomorrow hes a $2000 claimer and went 56 at Penrith!

[Race For Fun]

Bankstown 28th August had 11 races, 7 races were drawn up with full fields.

Newcastle 29th August had 9 races, 9 with full fields drawn up.

Menangle 2nd September has 7 races, 4 races have 6 runners, 2 races have 7 runners, 1 race has 8 runners.

All fields before scratchings as they are unknowns at the time fields are drawn up.

Prizemoney is the King no question.

But placing your horse to give it the best chance of winning is the differance between staying in harness racing or not.

Should the board at Menangle be concerned at this trend?

[trish]

As connections you had the choice to race in a harder graded race for $6,000 or a time restricted event for $4,000.

Your horse has been astutely placed based on its current performances.

60% of $4,000 is better than a possible 2% of $6,000 racing against above average horses.

I also don't understand why your horse would be spelled.

It's now September and I'd be surprised if every horse nominated (up to a certain grade) didn't receive a start from now till Nov.



Hi Adam . I can understand what you're trying to do . Last season Newcastle ran a race for any trainer who had not won a race all season and put the grand amount of $1500 as prize money . That is a damn insult when you look at what they have had to put up with . Now , I believe , this system is saying to those and others that "your no where near as important to the industry as those with big pockets or those prepared to give themselves an unfair advantage" . I think your lucky they haven't already left cause I know that some are thinking about it [every single person we've talked to]. How about we rate the staff at Harness racing NSW on performance or importance of job and start paying most of you less . That's what your doing to these trainers . They can't charge as much per day if they're racing for less . To say 60% of $4000 is better than 2% of $6000 is beyond belief . You stated that Warren had the choice to put his horse in a race for $6000 but would of had no real chance . Well that's not a choice and it's not fair that his horse can't compete for higher money at it's own level . I'm sure he costs as much to keep . This is WRONG and, I believe ,this is discriminative .

[Messenger]

Trish I totally agree that Prizemoney has to be 'worth the effort'. On a somewhat related point, I do however think that even at out of town meetings, the better horse should race for a few more $
Seeing a C0 winner collect the same purse as a C5-7 does not seem right to me. Generally I will not go that extra yard to attend a meeting for C0 race but I might for better class races/horses.
In terms of your workplace analogy, I see the better class horses as the leaders/bosses and you of course know that everyone at HRNSW does not get paid the same.
Once again I want to emphasize that I do agree that all races have to be worth winning

ps TeeCee you might have to create a thread for this page

[Race For Fun]

There is no doubt races with $1500 are disgusting. They do nothing for the person with the horse. It costs exactly the same amount to feed a horse if it starts in a race worth $1500 or $5000 on the same program. The punter just wants to have a bet and he doesn't care what the prizemoney level of a race is, and that's not the punters problem either. But the fact that these so called "penalty free " races ever got approved doesn't say much for the powers that be. Clubs get to run a meeting at a fraction of normal costs. The powers that be then tell us how good TAB turn over is.

Trish have a look at the mile rate of the $1500 race at Newcastle you refered to, almost the fastest run of the night.

Maybe country prizemoney needs to be higher while the industry tries to rebuild and metropolitan racing might have to race for a bit less for a while. Don't get me wrong metropolitan racing should have good prizemoney but metropolitan racing gets it's strength from country horses.

[trish]

G'day Kev . I just think that most horses don't race on to the faster classes . If a horse makes C7 then he's probably won 9 or 10 races , maybe more . His prize money would be quite good already . Any owner that keeps a low class horse going deserve a break if they win and, anyway , I don't think anyone should be racing for that when they don't have to . It just makes the sport even more unbalanced and the reason for it is questionable . They want to extend a horses racing life . Well if a horse is going to race for less once he's hit his mark then bye bye Socks . See you at Wentworth Park .

[trish]

There is no doubt races with $1500 are disgusting. They do nothing for the person with the horse. It costs exactly the same amount to feed a horse if it starts in a race worth $1500 or $5000 on the same program. The punter just wants to have a bet and he doesn't care what the prizemoney level of a race is, and that's not the punters problem either. But the fact that these so called "penalty free " races ever got approved doesn't say much for the powers that be. Clubs get to run a meeting at a fraction of normal costs. The powers that be then tell us how good TAB turn over is.

Trish have a look at the mile rate of the $1500 race at Newcastle you refered to, almost the fastest run of the night.

Maybe country prizemoney needs to be higher while the industry tries to rebuild and metropolitan racing might have to race for a bit less for a while. Don't get me wrong metropolitan racing should have good prizemoney but metropolitan racing gets it's strength from country horses.

Hi Toni.
I agree with everything you say. When is someone going to realise that higher prizemoney doesn't mean full fields. Menangle has had higher prizemoney in its mid week meetings for years but they have struggled to get field numbers up. The $30,000.00 FFAs they brought in on the 12th July haven't had a full field yet.
I believe that if participants believed that they were racing on a level playing field, then none of these problems would exist. This is the root of the problem IMO.

[jackthepunter]

Imo having any races worth less money for their class is a big step backwards, that will likely increase the chances of people being prepare to take more risks and send the sport back to where it has just been.

[Triple V]

The Metropolitan area has the horse population in Sep-Dec (when there are limited 2yo's & 3yo's in the pool) to conduct in most instances two weekday meetings and a Metro Saturday night.

The meetings at Penrith have predominately been programmed as Secondary meetings during Sep-Oct to cater for out of form and/or emerging horses.

To ensure that new 3yo's and C0's that are not up to Menangle Tuesday are catered for races have been programmed for $6,000 per race during this period.

If you look at the three meetings programmed this week it's fair to say that trainers have placed their horses based on their current form and/or ability.

Menangle (Tues):http://www.harness.org.au/fields.cfm?mc=PC020914

Penrith: http://www.harness.org.au/fields.cfm?mc=PE040914

Menangle (Sat): http://www.harness.org.au/fields.cfm?mc=PC060914

When the horse population grows & the Metro Monday meeting enters the system Penrith meetings will mainly be Primary Meetings (programmed similar to how Newcastle & Wagga/Young Fridays and Bathurst are programmed now).

Primary meetings have increased from $39,000 to $46,000 per meeting.

Secondary meetings have increased from $28,000 to $33,500 per meeting.

The race date calendar is designed to cater for the horse population at any given time of the year.

I think the mix in the Metro area has worked extremely well this week.

VVV-Keep up the good work Adam...the peanut gallery be damned.

[Wilso]

So rather then 3k restricted front races, they are now 4k country penalty races.
Meaning that in the past battlers could spend a small amount as a hobby interest and buy a horse that potentially could win a R0 worth 2k to the winner, then the next start win a C0 worth $3500 to the winner and actually earn money and encourage them to buy another horse.
Now they just lose a country penalty for less money?
HRNSW are simply trying to eradicate the battlers or hobbyists out of the sport.
Word it which ever way you like this is what they are doing.
IMO the new race programming is a joke aswell! How long before Menangle races 3/4 times a week????
Rant over

[trish]

VVV-Keep up the good work Adam...the peanut gallery be damned.

https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSGhXtKhN51TlDio_fvDJVV7ydyHse2A y6Q-Xo8L_rAnfdezA2b Too right Jaimie DAMN DAMN DAMN them . And while we're at it , DAMN DAMN DAMN those recalcitrant swine's as well !!!

[Race For Fun]

Toni,

With the change of the season there is a dramatic decline in the horse population.

Many horses that were 2YO's and 3YO's last week spell this week.

Bankstown was the last chance in the provincial area to win a race before the end of the season.

Hence the larger than normal nominations last week and the lower than normal nominations this week.


Adam,

Let me state first up, I think Menangle is a wonderful show piece for harness racing in N.S.W. the stable area is first class in my opinion something to be proud of (I have not seen the new grandstand but have no doubt that it would be very good).

Adam I can remember a time when they raced without proper safety helmets and carried lead.......... so its safe to say that I have seen a few changes in harness racing in my time, not all good, not all bad. Not looking at anything through rose coloured glasses or with sour grapes.

I understand about young horses going for a spell at the end of the season.

I hope this table I did comes through. I should have added prizemoney but am on holidays and the effort left me......... This is the last four meetings for the 2013/2014 season for Bathurst, Penrith, Newcastle and Menangle (mid week, country front races). I only did the last month someone else can provide more figures if they want to show me up.

The numbers speak for themself I think, in my opinion. There are less horses racing at Menangle mid week than on other tracks. Other clubs ran more than eight races I would think because they had the nominations. I am NOT knocking Menangle. But the question remains.

Why are there less horses nominating/racing at Menangle mid week?
Is it distance/cost to travel for many people?
Is it track size?
Is it the speed (sure your horse will go faster on a better track, so do the others)?
Is it that most people with horses work and can not take time off work (how many hobby trainers/drivers race at Menangle mid week)?

I don't know.

Maybe TAB turnover will blow me out of the water but I don't bet and I don't know where you get those figures from. I'm just asking the question about horse numbers. I fully understand that I might be on my own here but thats OK it has given me something to do as it's too cold outside. The best setup with the least number of runners.

Table is when field came out, i.e. before any scratchings.

Sorry table won't come over from word............it was good
It shows the last 4 meeting for the season ending 2013/2014 at Bathurst, Penrith, Newcastle and Menangle.

Bathurst
Had a total of 35 races, 18 races had full fields, a total of 323 horses at the meeting

Penrith
Total of 35 races, 13 races had full fields, a total of 316 horses at the meeting.

Newcastle
Total of 36 races, 34 races had full fields, a total of 357 horses at the meeting.

Menangle
Total of 32 races, 5 races had full fields, a total of 269 horses at the meeting.

[mango]

So rather then 3k restricted front races, they are now 4k country penalty races.
Meaning that in the past battlers could spend a small amount as a hobby interest and buy a horse that potentially could win a R0 worth 2k to the winner, then the next start win a C0 worth $3500 to the winner and actually earn money and encourage them to buy another horse.
Now they just lose a country penalty for less money?
HRNSW are simply trying to eradicate the battlers or hobbyists out of the sport.
Word it which ever way you like this is what they are doing.
IMO the new race programming is a joke aswell! How long before Menangle races 3/4 times a week????
Rant over

Steve I think you have said what a lot of people have been thinking and I for one agree totally. Restricted race's served a purpose and allowed trainers to place there horses to maximise a return for the owner's. The new programming is a joke and the owner/trainer should be able to pick which race his/hers horse race's in. With the way Qld are programming and prize money on the rise it give's you options as to where to place and race your horse.

[Messenger]

Bathurst
Had a total of 35 races, 18 races had full fields, a total of 323 horses at the meeting

Penrith
Total of 35 races, 13 races had full fields, a total of 316 horses at the meeting.

Newcastle
Total of 36 races, 34 races had full fields, a total of 357 horses at the meeting.

Menangle
Total of 32 races, 5 races had full fields, a total of 269 horses at the meeting.

I think we might need the difference in the averages to be more glaring to see any change Toni

9.2, 9.0, 10, 8.4

[Race For Fun]

I think we might need the difference in the averages to be more glaring to see any change Toni

9.2, 9.0, 10, 8.4

Yep had it all in table, table would not talk now I'm not talking to the table so all good. Talk about lost in translation.

[Messenger]

Yep had it all in table, table would not talk now I'm not talking to the table so all good. Talk about lost in translation.
Lost in Translation is a favourite movie of mine but not many people like it
ps Found a simple table for you too ;)

[trish]

lost in translation is a favourite movie of mine but not many people like it
ps found a simple table for you too ;)


funny

[Wilso]

I personally think NSW harness racing is going downhill at a dramatic rate.
You only have too look at the way the country graded tracks have had the meetings moved around and re programmed, its not good.
Mr Fairly can get on here and try and justify it all until the cows come home but he isn't fooling anyone.
Why they are building a new track at Bathurst I dont know? They race once a week and the new track at Tamworth? There lucky to race once a fortnight! Should of used the money to improve there facilities and pump it into prize money for the country racing!
Its ok to continue to boost Menangle prizemoney, but not everyone has metro horses, why not give the battlers a crack at some good money?
Newcastle 8k friday nights? And maybe make it you can lose 2x C0 fronts if you win a 4k C0 first?
I dunno something....

[Race For Fun]

Lost in Translation is a favourite movie of mine but not many people like it
ps Found a simple table for you too ;)

Very good, but my table had fancy legs. :)

[Messenger]

Very good, but my table had fancy legs. :)
Any other requests?

[trish]

https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSGhXtKhN51TlDio_fvDJVV7ydyHse2A y6Q-Xo8L_rAnfdezA2b

Penrith 2nd September 2004's meeting raced for $33600.
Penrith 4th September 2014"s meeting raced for $33500.
Did someone from Penrith fart in your car ????

[Richard prior]

Any other requests?

Gold!!

[Messenger]

Very comprehensive as usual Adam.
10yrs however is a very long time so we should be seeing some big increases
I do not know what figure we should be comparing them to but I am not sure it is the inflation figure that the government calculates
I reckon that Melbourne and Sydney house prices have gone up 27% in 3yrs

[Mitch]

Give it time people, it's only week one.

[trish]

NINETY seven is a number Shaun Snudden seems to be stuck on.
For the second conseuctive season, the Narrandera trainer has finished with 97 wins.
Of those, 88 came in NSW, placing him eighth in the state and 15th in the country.
For the second year the Narrandera trainer has claimed the Southwest and Riverina premiership, finishing 83 wins, seven clear of Kim Hillier.
However, he hasn't set his sights on bringing up the century in the new season just yet.
"It's a bit early to tell as I'm not sure the handicapping system will allow us to do that," he said.
"It's going to make it hard and that's why we aren't setting any flash targets as where you could have got three or four wins out of a horse you might only get two out of it."

[Mitch]

NINETY seven is a number Shaun Snudden seems to be stuck on.
For the second conseuctive season, the Narrandera trainer has finished with 97 wins.
Of those, 88 came in NSW, placing him eighth in the state and 15th in the country.
For the second year the Narrandera trainer has claimed the Southwest and Riverina premiership, finishing 83 wins, seven clear of Kim Hillier.
However, he hasn't set his sights on bringing up the century in the new season just yet.
"It's a bit early to tell as I'm not sure the handicapping system will allow us to do that," he said.
"It's going to make it hard and that's why we aren't setting any flash targets as where you could have got three or four wins out of a horse you might only get two out of it."

With all due respect to Shane I think he needs to better understand the new system. The system has been created to ensure races are more competitive and align horses of similar current form. This will take away the ability for trainers to place horses not yet on their mark in easier races, however it will also allow horses which are out of form and on their mark to race on for a lot longer than they currently would & consistently have a better chance of earning prize money each time they race. It will also reduce the number of odds on favs which should stimulate greater wagering revenue.

I think the benefits of the latter 2 points far outweigh the first point.

I think his horses will have no problem winning the same number of races, if not more. And over time if his owners get a better return on their investment, which they should, they may buy more horses to send to him.

Everyone needs to remember its a new system and it will take a few months to work itself out properly. We also all need to remember that for the sport to prosper changes will consistently need to be made that sometimes will not be favourable to some us from an individual perspective. That's just a fact of life and people need to adapt to the changes as they happen. Harness racing first, me second.

[Danno]

Agree with a great deal in your post Mitch, the last point most of all.
Decisions about the game should be for the benefit of the game, not individuals.

This "new" handicapping system is VERY similar to what we had 30 years ago, with the exception of the divided stakes.

The graduation penalty ( "R") handicapping was brought in about 15 years ago with the thought that people with weaker horses could run in these while people who had the stronger types would race for the better prizemoney in the country penalty ( C) fronts....a good thought only trouble is it didn't work.

Owners and trainers of the stronger horses took advantage of the fact they could win an "R' race and then win a "c" race and took a total penalty of one class!!
So the end result is stronger types in weaker races and lots of odds on starters crippling the punting.

I personally don't like losing some control over placing my horse to it's best advantage and I empathise with everyone coming to terms with a system that removes that control, however our game is going to dissappear very soon if we dont make some changes to make it more appealling to the punters, I believe this is a step in the right direction, time will tell.

cheers,
Danno

PS, I haven't had a starter for about twelve frustrating months, I nominated 2 mares for 3 races each at Newcastle Wednesday night to try and ensure they get a run( their form is very poor) and guess what!!!! They put them in the same F__ing race!!!!!

[Frano1982]

Game on Danny :-)

[DRUIDRACING]

come clean hrnsw you want all horses sent to Menangle or Metro trainers and only race there!!

[Danno]

Game on Danny :-)

Ha ha we'll bake you mate!!

[Triple V]

https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSGhXtKhN51TlDio_fvDJVV7ydyHse2A y6Q-Xo8L_rAnfdezA2b Too right Jaimie DAMN DAMN DAMN them . And while we're at it , DAMN DAMN DAMN those recalcitrant swine's as well !!!



VVV- Your none too subtle sarcasm is all but lost on me Trish...sheer depth of comedic talent & clear lack of understanding of the recent changes to NSW Programming/Handicapping System notwithstanding.

[trish]

VVV- Your none too subtle sarcasm is all but lost on me Trish...sheer depth of comedic talent & clear lack of understanding of the recent changes to NSW Programming/Handicapping System notwithstanding.


https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQ09PWtSl9hM4fBnNrB2UoFAxeUX9Hhj BsaKzm9iQ7-I7uWv5MV





Hi Jaimie . Believe it or not , I tend to agree with you . I don't fully understand it , but what I do see is a system that is open to interpretation and , more so , innuendo . A system where control of your horses racing is taken out of your hands . A system where your horses placement is open to someone else's opinion . A person who has absolutely no idea where your horse is at . A system that,in my opinion, is open to bias or accusations of bias . Don't like it Jaimie , don't like it at all ----- and $4000 for a country front na na

[Messenger]

Great post jamie
Could not disagree more
We want everyone's opinions on here and being a smart arse and going out of your way to disrespect another poster is not the way that forums work

[trish]

It's unfortunate however you tend to see a snake in EVERY wood pile Trish.
You get on here & bang on & on about how various people/groups/attitudes/changes or the lackthereof are ruining the Industry... while there's absolutely no shadow of a doubt in my mind that you are doing just as much if not more damage to it with your own home grown & constant barrage of negatives. If it was raining Gold bars I'm convinced that you'd be the one complaining about the weather.

http://www.harness.org.au/hra/annual/public/stats/regn_info.pdf

Hi Jaimie . I don't think that anyone can read a positive into this . Are you seriously trying to tell me that this is home grown? People/groups/attitudes/changes are not ruining the industry , cheats are and cheats are causing the changes . I'd absolutely love something positive to happen . Yeah positive swabs .
As far as raining gold bars are concerned , you haven't put much thought into it . That would cause a massive drop in world gold price which would cause catastrophic hyper inflation across every financial market worldwide which could and probably would lead to a world war . But I suppose that's being negative to .

[Triple V]

http://www.harness.org.au/hra/annual/public/stats/regn_info.pdf

Hi Jaimie . I don't think that anyone can read a positive into this . Are you seriously trying to tell me that this is home grown? People/groups/attitudes/changes are not ruining the industry , cheats are and cheats are causing the changes . I'd absolutely love something positive to happen . Yeah positive swabs .


VVV- Trish, I can immediately read one extremely significant positive into that PDF.
The Named Horses figure as it directly relates to annual foaling numbers and in turn Industry wastage.
We are breeding far, far fewer horses than we ever were 35+ years ago HOWEVER at the same time it is a FACT that we are conducting significantly MORE races than we did 35+ years ago.
This is because the horses we are breeding these days are sired by infinitely better class/quality stallions than were ever even dreamed of being available in the past, the foals by those sires are... I suspect to the surprise of nobody who's been paying attention...getting to the races in vastly greater %'s, age wise they are getting there earlier across the board & consequently they are having MORE RACE STARTS LIFETIME than their predecessors could ever have dreamed of.
That there are fewer Trainers & Drivers now than there were 35+ years ago merely reflects ongoing Industry changes from a large number/greater % of part-time/Hobby trainer/drivers to a smaller number/ greater % of more full-time participants. I hesitate to use the word 'rationalisation' however, like the number of small tracks throughout the State being closed down and the Industry moving to a focus on fewer but larger Regional Centre operations (Menangle/Goulburn/Bathurst/Newcastle/Tamworth)...trainer/driver numbers, like tracks and foal numbers, are not immune to rationalisation as a result of financial pressures/constraints. How would you like to have another 7000 odd foals across Australia out there looking for someone to shell out their hard earned, a % of those at the sales & others privately, to buy and pay to have trained and subsequently...looking for somewhere to race?
At one stage there not so many years ago we had 16 mares. We saw the writing on the wall and to remain a part of the Industry we loved so much we cut our cloth to suit the returns, we're back to 5 now, probably drop one more off/not replace her over the next few years.
It is what it is, the basic financial fundamentals of remaining part of the show are what they are.
Even now the Australian & NZ Breeding Industries produce more foals each year than there are Owners out there who are willing to shell out to buy, train and race.


Hand in hand with the above...the lack of Owners is in now way assisted by the really spineless efforts of recent times that have occurred on behalf of a great many Trainers. These are blokes who are at the coal face and who, despite being much more aware than most of the shrinking pool of Owners out there and becoming aware of the Owner pool dwindling much sooner than anyone else, still steadfastly refuse to put their hands into their own pockets and own shares in the horses that they train. They are of course more than happy to fire off their monthly accounts... but as far as sharing even a part of the risk they expect their Owners to take on...by and large they are notably gun shy.
If a Trainer doesn't show some faith in their own Industry, faith in their own product, faith in that which puts food on their table by way of taking a piece of each horse than enters their stable...it's more than a bit rich for them to nevertheless expect Owners to do so.
There are some VERY notable exceptions of course...however they are unfortunately very few and far between.
Interestingly those few and far between Trainers are often more successful than most BUT also inexplicably critiqued by their contemporaries...often whilst said critics stand at the bar at the Yearling Sales, a can of Jimmy in hand and waiting, like a Venus Fly Trap...for some poor unsuspecting bastard to wander by and drop a horse or two into their lap.

All this makes me think of a short story. In response to a journalist suggesting he had been lucky throughout his career, the late, great 5 time Little Brown Jug winning Trainer, Billy Haughton was quoted as saying "The harder I work, the luckier I get". That's been used many times by many different people...but always to the same end. We all need to take a leaf out of Billy's book.

A good many people in this very much loved Industry of ours simply need to quit their bitching and moaning and groaning, pick their battles and otherwise just get on with it. There are a dozen or more things that I would change if I could. I would fight 20 battles plus a day if I had the time & the inclination. I like a good old stoush more than most & way more than I should. I have found one thing to be true however. There's more than one way to skin a cat. If you want to kick the chairs out from under those you believe to be cheating, very little is to be gained by running the Industry down here in a public forum. You need to be a little bit more creative.

[cyclone george]

Could not disagree more
We want everyone's opinions on here and being a smart arse and going out of your way to disrespect another poster is not the way that forums work


What so agreeing with someone's post is being a smartarse Kevin. On Jamie's last post he is right we don't need to breed three times more horses than we need. Kevin and patrica if you are so concerned about horse numbers bred now(we don't need them to get much lower) can you do some research and find out what the hell happened to all the foals we bred 20 years ago when we had a third of the racing,for god sake we didn't even race through the winter.

[Triple V]

As far as raining gold bars are concerned , you haven't put much thought into it . That would cause a massive drop in world gold price which would cause catastrophic hyper inflation across every financial market worldwide which could and probably would lead to a world war . But I suppose that's being negative to .


VVV- Ok. Does....having a Virginia Ham under each arm and crying because you don't have any bread...work?

[teecee]

A number of posts have been deleted lately from this thread. In the majority of cases they are simply irrelevant to the thread topic in its widest sense whilst others are simply attacks upon other posters. As kev said this is not the way the forum is supposed to work. Can we please get back to some mature discussion or has this thread past its "Use by date".
Also the forum is not running popularity polls at this time. Posts that simply and solely suggest someone has posted a good thread is hardly adding to the value of the discussion especially when the "good post" is in itself not relevant to the topic per say. We have a thread open for all the miscellaneous posts or if you want to start a new topic then feel free. With these options available it's unnecessary to sidetrack issues.

[cyclone george]

Tony I don't know if this belongs on this thread but by what you've said in your previous thread it not okay to like or dislike someone else's post but it okay to defame and accuse certain newcastle trainers of being drug cheats,which in turn is the reason prize money is stagnating. (by the way I don't know a Newcastle trainer). I find it quite sad when people write and slander people on social media with no proof ,but as soon as the posters that won't to be positive about our sport we get our posts deleted

[trish]

VVV- Ok. Does....having a Virginia Ham under each arm and crying because you don't have any bread...work?


Virginia hams, prized for their sweetness, are cut from razorback hogs fed on peanuts!

If you knew this, its funny.
If you didn't know this, its even funnier.

[Triple V]

Virginia hams, prized for their sweetness, are cut from razorback hogs fed on peanuts!

If you knew this, its funny.
If you didn't know this, its even funnier.



VVV- So...that's it is it Trish? No reply to ANYTHING whatsoever that I mentioned in #40?
I rest my case.

[Messenger]

VVV- Trish, I can immediately read one extremely significant positive into that PDF.
The Named Horses figure as it directly relates to annual foaling numbers and in turn Industry wastage.
We are breeding far, far fewer horses than we ever were 35+ years ago HOWEVER at the same time it is a FACT that we are conducting significantly MORE races than we did 35+ years ago.
This is because the horses we are breeding these days are sired by infinitely better class/quality stallions than were ever even dreamed of being available in the past, the foals by those sires are... I suspect to the surprise of nobody who's been paying attention...getting to the races in vastly greater %'s, age wise they are getting there earlier across the board & consequently they are having MORE RACE STARTS LIFETIME than their predecessors could ever have dreamed of.
That there are fewer Trainers & Drivers now than there were 35+ years ago merely reflects ongoing Industry changes from a large number/greater % of part-time/Hobby trainer/drivers to a smaller number/ greater % of more full-time participants. I hesitate to use the word 'rationalisation' however, like the number of small tracks throughout the State being closed down and the Industry moving to a focus on fewer but larger Regional Centre operations (Menangle/Goulburn/Bathurst/Newcastle/Tamworth)...trainer/driver numbers, like tracks and foal numbers, are not immune to rationalisation as a result of financial pressures/constraints. How would you like to have another 7000 odd foals across Australia out there looking for someone to shell out their hard earned, a % of those at the sales & others privately, to buy and pay to have trained and subsequently...looking for somewhere to race?
At one stage there not so many years ago we had 16 mares. We saw the writing on the wall and to remain a part of the Industry we loved so much we cut our cloth to suit the returns, we're back to 5 now, probably drop one more off/not replace her over the next few years.
It is what it is, the basic financial fundamentals of remaining part of the show are what they are.
Even now the Australian & NZ Breeding Industries produce more foals each year than there are Owners out there who are willing to shell out to buy, train and race.


Hand in hand with the above...the lack of Owners is in now way assisted by the really spineless efforts of recent times that have occurred on behalf of a great many Trainers. These are blokes who are at the coal face and who, despite being much more aware than most of the shrinking pool of Owners out there and becoming aware of the Owner pool dwindling much sooner than anyone else, still steadfastly refuse to put their hands into their own pockets and own shares in the horses that they train. They are of course more than happy to fire off their monthly accounts... but as far as sharing even a part of the risk they expect their Owners to take on...by and large they are notably gun shy.
If a Trainer doesn't show some faith in their own Industry, faith in their own product, faith in that which puts food on their table by way of taking a piece of each horse than enters their stable...it's more than a bit rich for them to nevertheless expect Owners to do so.
There are some VERY notable exceptions of course...however they are unfortunately very few and far between.
Interestingly those few and far between Trainers are often more successful than most BUT also inexplicably critiqued by their contemporaries...often whilst said critics stand at the bar at the Yearling Sales, a can of Jimmy in hand and waiting, like a Venus Fly Trap...for some poor unsuspecting bastard to wander by and drop a horse or two into their lap.

All this makes me think of a short story. In response to a journalist suggesting he had been lucky throughout his career, the late, great 5 time Little Brown Jug winning Trainer, Billy Haughton was quoted as saying "The harder I work, the luckier I get". That's been used many times by many different people...but always to the same end. We all need to take a leaf out of Billy's book.

A good many people in this very much loved Industry of ours simply need to quit their bitching and moaning and groaning, pick their battles and otherwise just get on with it. There are a dozen or more things that I would change if I could. I would fight 20 battles plus a day if I had the time & the inclination. I like a good old stoush more than most & way more than I should. I have found one thing to be true however. There's more than one way to skin a cat. If you want to kick the chairs out from under those you believe to be cheating, very little is to be gained by running the Industry down here in a public forum. You need to be a little bit more creative.

As you are keen for a reply VVV, I will tell you how it struck me.
I would say that the emboldened part is sad. It sounds a little defeatist but I dare say it is also realistic.
I cannot help but think our administrators have failed dismally. In which case a bit of moaning and groaning to let them know they have not done enough cannot be all bad IMO.
As for not discussing the industry's woes on a public forum eg cheats, I think you will find that this forum is 99% enthusiasts and we are unlikely to cost the industry converts as we have a fairly balanced range of threads for the new 1% we snare
Seriously, there are plenty on here that would like a creative leader who will show us how to skin the cat so don't hold back

[Triple V]

As you are keen for a reply VVV, I will tell you how it struck me.
I would say that the emboldened part is sad. It sounds a little defeatist but I dare say it is also realistic.
I cannot help but think our administrators have failed dismally. In which case a bit of moaning and groaning to let them know they have not done enough cannot be all bad IMO.
As for not discussing the industry's woes on a public forum eg cheats, I think you will find that this forum is 99% enthusiasts and we are unlikely to cost the industry converts as we have a fairly balanced range of threads for the new 1% we snare
Seriously, there are plenty on here that would like a creative leader who will show us how to skin the cat so don't hold back


VVV- Not defeatist by any means mate, Breeders are by nature supreme optimists where their activities are concerned, they have to be. It's a prerequisite. Anything less than that just doesn't get you over the many & varied disappointments, some of which can prove to be all but crushing...and that come as part of the territory.
We had a swag of mares there at one stage and I don't mind admitting there were quite a few passengers that for a variety of reasons we had picked up along the way and by rights we should not have been breeding from, but nevertheless we did. Financial realities in any form of endeavour have a cold, hard habit of hitting you between the eyes and heading to the sales and not even getting service fees back for a number of them was of course the last straw. That was nobody's fault but our own. Not for one minute do I blame Industry Admin for any of that. Sales Breeders ignore basic Industry commercial imperatives at their inevitable peril.
Getting points across wise...well, the easiest way I think there is to get your point across to Administration/Regulatory etc is to get on the phone & and call them and/or make an appointment to go talk to them... or better still, just straight up walk over & talk to them whenever you see them. Nothing beats a face to face encounter. Get on a Committee, get to the Industry talk fests and stand up and let them have it if that is your want. As I said in #40, there's plenty I'd change if given the chance, there's plenty Admin & Regulatory do way wrong in my eyes but there is plenty Admin do right as well. Brickbats and Bouquets accordingly. It's not all one way traffic.

[Triple V]

http://www.harness.org.au/news-article.cfm?news_id=24421

[Messenger]

VVV- Not defeatist by any means mate, Breeders are by nature supreme optimists where their activities are concerned, they have to be. It's a prerequisite. Anything less than that just doesn't get you over the many & varied disappointments, some of which can prove to be all but crushing...and that come as part of the territory.
We had a swag of mares there at one stage and I don't mind admitting there were quite a few passengers that for a variety of reasons we had picked up along the way and by rights we should not have been breeding from, but nevertheless we did. Financial realities in any form of endeavour have a cold, hard habit of hitting you between the eyes and heading to the sales and not even getting service fees back for a number of them was of course the last straw. That was nobody's fault but our own. Not for one minute do I blame Industry Admin for any of that. Sales Breeders ignore basic Industry commercial imperatives at their inevitable peril.
Getting points across wise...well, the easiest way I think there is to get your point across to Administration/Regulatory etc is to get on the phone & and call them and/or make an appointment to go talk to them... or better still, just straight up walk over & talk to them whenever you see them. Nothing beats a face to face encounter. Get on a Committee, get to the Industry talk fests and stand up and let them have it if that is your want. As I said in #40, there's plenty I'd change if given the chance, there's plenty Admin & Regulatory do way wrong in my eyes but there is plenty Admin do right as well. Brickbats and Bouquets accordingly. It's not all one way traffic.
We saw the writing on the wall ......
It is what it is, the basic financial fundamentals of remaining part of the show are what they are

Now read differently with the context you provide

I guess I blame Admin for not growing our industry and for us being even more insignificant than ever in relation to the 'other' horse industry.
I have a couple of family members very heavily involved in that other industry and in comparison it is hard to dispute their claim that we are irrelevant

I probably email, call etc way more than the next bloke but I also see a potentially strong voice in our forum. I know Adam Kelly printed off our 'Ways to Improve the industry' thread
I would like to think that we remember to praise too. We are certainly aiming to have some fun

[kung fu man]

A person has to laugh or just go crazy our bloke won his co last night and today this
http://www.harness.org.au/news-article.cfm?news_id=24421

[Danno]

A person has to laugh or just go crazy our bloke won his co last night and today this
http://www.harness.org.au/news-article.cfm?news_id=24421

That would be more than a bit frustrating Warren....but on the bright side, Congrats!! hope you are still enjoying the win!

cheers,
dan

[kung fu man]

Yeah still watching the replay every hour but its still feels like i just walked down the shop handing out hundred dollar notes,hopefully he can do it again soon

[trish]

http://www.harness.org.au/news-article.cfm?news_id=24421


THANK YOU JOHN.
What a great move by HRNSW, this is decent & fair.

Isn't this positive Jaimie.

[kung fu man]

What was the anomaly i wonder?

[Danno]

Yeah still watching the replay every hour but its still feels like i just walked down the shop handing out hundred dollar notes,hopefully he can do it again soon

Good Luck, they quite often go on with it once they find the line!

[kung fu man]

Hes won 5 now and going as good as he can each week, hes gives 100%

[Danno]

Hes won 5 now and going as good as he can each week, hes gives 100%

You've gotta be proud of him then Warren, all anyone can ask is for 100%, he is obviously an easy horse to like!

[trish]

What was the anomaly i wonder?

“An anomaly had occurred with the scheduling of Secondary Meetings which required immediate attention"

Hi Warren, maybe this anomaly means that they might even look at back paying you. Maybe go & pick up those $100 notes. Hope so for your sake. After all it was only two meetings.

[Triple V]

http://www.harness.org.au/news-article.cfm?news_id=24421


THANK YOU JOHN.
What a great move by HRNSW, this is decent & fair.

Isn't this positive Jaimie.


VVV- See #49

[djgood]

Didn't take long to screw the little bloke with the new handicapping the competitive stakes in the last at Newcastle is a farce

[djgood]

Original conditions for race -For horses which have had a minimum of 6 Australian starts & have an average individual mile rate of no better than 2.01 (over the last 6 starts) and assessed no better than C1.

[Triple V]

Original conditions for race -For horses which have had a minimum of 6 Australian starts & have an average individual mile rate of no better than 2.01 (over the last 6 starts) and assessed no better than C1.



VVV- Shit go that.

[Mark Croatto]

At least it was drawn with the C1s!

[Frano1982]

I'll be scratching my bloke...
It's a very disappointing situation when you think you're going to be in a race with horses around the same ability as your horse and then the power that be go and change it for a horse that's won 3 of his last 5 and last 3 starts ran 59, 56 and 56...
Competetive stakes apparently???

[kung fu man]

You should be let scratch from that without penalty if they changed the conditions to suit 1 horse

[Richard prior]

Totally agree, That's the fairest scenario.

[Danno]

We are supposed to be doing two things at the moment....reducing our % of odds on pops, and trying to keep honest people in the game, that race field achieves neither.

[Danno]

I just worked out this horse's last three MOBILE starts in NZ, added them to his three Australian starts and got an average personal mile rate of 1.59.7, surely our NSW handicappers would have done the same???? if you were to take Standing Start mile rates into account when handicapping the race, well just about ANYTHING is going to be eliglible.

In my humble opinion the horse should be scratched by HRNSW due to an error made by it's handicappers!!

[Race For Fun]

Instills confidence for the future. The powers that be can justify this any way that suits them but...... ordinary by anyone's standard.

[aussiebreno]

They couldn't do ballots properly and fairly for when 11 or more horses nommed for a pre set C race what made people think grouping 30 plus horses was going to be done properly and fairly.

[Race For Fun]

Changed conditions

HRNSW: Please note that the conditions for all future "Encouragement" and "Competitive" stakes have now been changed. The Encouragement stakes now exclude trainers who have won a race in the 14/15 season. The Competitive stakes are now assessed based on Australian runs only. The programs have been changed to reflect this - please see harness.org.au for full programs.

[trish]

http://www.harnessmediacentre.com.au/trotstv/tvvideos/15907

[kung fu man]

Just dont race every week hold your horse back a week ,that just shows how out of touch they are, or are there trainers out there who only charge for when your horse is racing that week really! is this the best we can have running the show?

[trish]

Just dont race every week hold your horse back a week ,that just shows how out of touch they are, or are there trainers out there who only charge for when your horse is racing that week really! is this the best we can have running the show?

Hi Warren if the trainers are NOT happy, shouldn't they (the authorities etc) be listening to THEM.......NOW !!. Can you imagine what would happen if everyone just decided to race for the bigger prizemoney & raced every fortnight at Penrith? See you later I'm taking my horses elsewhere, Qld, Vic This interview just shows me that they want everyone at Menangle & that would be great if you had the horse to go there but not everyone has or just race for $4000 you'll be right attitude . Stinks.

[Messenger]

No Metro stakes meeting in NSW this week?

[aussiebreno]

No Metro stakes meeting in NSW this week?
I guess if you take Goulburn today and Menangle Sunday would only have been 1 meeting 99% of weekends the prize-money evens out. We get to enjoy some more racing in between the great program at Kilmore on Sunday!

[Messenger]

Right Brendan, I just saw how much they were racing for at Goulbourn on a Friday afternoon - amazing AND explains no metro stakes meeting this week

[trish]

Remedial Works Required for Bathurst Track

22 October 2014
http://www.harness.org.au/news/images/logos/HRNSW-2.gif

http://www.harness.org.au/news/images/main/4090.jpg

The meeting for Bathurst set down for this evening (Wednesday) has been abandoned due to inconsistencies in the track surface.
Following a track inspection this morning inconsistencies were identified in the sprint lane and running line.
It is envisaged that remedial works will take place immediately to ensure that racing resumes at the earliest possible opportunity.
“Whilst this action at the new Bathurst track is disappointing HRNSW must at all times ensure a safe work place and equal opportunity across the entire racing surface for horse and participants alike,” said HRNSW CEO John Dumesny.
“Concerns were raised following the grand opening meeting on Sunday which have been addressed in accordance with established HRNSW policies.
Harness Racing NSW have extended nominations for the Parkes meeting scheduled for this Saturday (25 October) and have added additional races to the program. These races comprise of a Divided Stakes for $7,000, $6,000 and $5,000.




Parkes meeting & the last two sentences.
I looked the fields up & see that they have 5 races for $4000 & 2 races for $5000.
So didn't the bigger prize money races stand up?
Or couldn't they get a field that was good enough for the better prize money?
If the nom's become a pool of horses surely those races could have been filled.

[Amlin]

Goulburn meeting listed as NSWHRC at Goulburn as they have done before. Perhaps Menangle closed for a resheet before the MM?

[trish]

In the programs for October it does say NSWHRC @ Goulburn - Metro , so what is metro money? $10,000 or $12,000.?
I just hate that harness racing in NSW has gone back to the dark ages like the $4000 races. As a top trainer said to me the other day, they still cost the same to feed, train etc.

[aussiebreno]

In the programs for October it does say NSWHRC @ Goulburn - Metro , so what is metro money? $10,000 or $12,000.?
I just hate that harness racing in NSW has gone back to the dark ages like the $4000 races. As a top trainer said to me the other day, they still cost the same to feed, train etc.

$164,000 in NSWHRC stakes this weekend. Only $149,000 last week. $174,000 next week (two country finals). 15 races this week (more punting cash), extra cash injections and more horses racing for more cash.



Goulburn meeting listed as NSWHRC at Goulburn as they have done before. Perhaps Menangle closed for a resheet before the MM?
No, racing Sunday. I'd imagine to race alongside the Kilmore meeting.

[trish]

Yea that's fine , what I'm saying is I hate the fact that trainers are racing for $4000, they shouldn't be in 2014.

[trish]

http://www.harness.org.au/fields.cfm?mc=BH291014

Noticed Bathurst is an R meeting tonight.

[The Form Student]

You are right, after having the meeting cancelled last week, and not transferring to another track, or re-scheduling for this week, every race is for $3,000 prizemoney! The Dubbo meeting scheduled for Sunday only has prizemoney from mainly $4,000 a race, and one @ $4,500 & one @ $5,000.

[trish]

Maybe? but it was programed as 5 R races & 2 C races in the gazette Sept/Oct issue.

[Messenger]

Victoria is cheapskating this weekend too. Only 4 metro races at Melton on Friday - their excuse will be the 2 metro stakes races at Maryborough's Cup on Sunday

[trish]

https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/440726119935799296/yva16PY-_normal.jpeg Amanda Rando @Amanda_Rando · 1h 1 hour ago (https://twitter.com/Amanda_Rando/status/527586643549904897)
This year's Treuer Memorial at Bankstown now only worth $30,000 - a dramatic drop from $100,000

[The Form Student]

Looks like they are trying to phase out Bankstown completely! Maybe, a "once-a-year job"

[Race For Fun]

So no different to a normal fast class race that is run at Menangle every Saturday night if it gets enough nominations to stand up. What happens to the other $70,000 left over?

Gee............... onwards and upwards.

[Messenger]

So no different to a normal fast class race that is run at Menangle every Saturday night if it gets enough nominations to stand up. What happens to the other $70,000 left over?

Gee............... onwards and upwards.

http://www.harnesslink.com/Australia/Treuer-Memorial-stake-slashed

[djgood]

Interesting long running legal battle? But i despise bankstown i wont miss it if it closes

[The Form Student]

Interesting long running legal battle? But i despise bankstown i wont miss it if it closes

As Pauline Hanson once said, "Please explain", would be helpful!

[djgood]

Track is terrible like corougated iron, stables run down and just a difficult place to get to

[The Form Student]

Track is terrible like corougated iron, stables run down and just a difficult place to get to

Also, the pigeon shit everywhere! I was a member there for a long time, and the sports club! It was good, somewhere to go for a meal & drink, races next door.....perfect location if you are in harness racing, especially Ellis St where most of the trainers live, good support from Bankstown Council...........I don't know what's happened! Hopefully, someone can explain what has gone wrong........Now the Treuer downgrade, where is it headed??
The markets every Sunday, the trials Sunday morning 9.00 am sharp!... it was a good place to go......I remember there used to be over 100 bookies there at a meeting, some undercover and some not...............good grandstand, except the members get the finishing post pole position!
JE & "Tubba" ruled the roost! very sad!

[trish]

http://www.harness.org.au/news-article.cfm?news_id=24804

[trish]

http://www.dailyadvertiser.com.au/story/2662952/five-prong-attack-for-kahlefeldt-after-system-change/?src=rss&utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter


The experienced trainer said the system was a disgrace and holds fears of the future of the industry with the current system.

[Messenger]

http://www.harness.org.au/news-article.cfm?news_id=24804

Thanks for the details on Bankstown's woes Trish. Are we talking a competing Pokies joint here?

[Messenger]

http://www.harness.org.au/news-article.cfm?news_id=24804

"There is no other racing game, that I know of, where you can't have a choice as a trainer or a owner for where you want your horse to race," Kahlefeldt said

[kung fu man]

I have to agree with him, we were told about 5 weeks ago we were put in the right eace by the handicapper because the horses form was weak, a 4000 dollar encouragenent so since he has won 1 and now its ok to be racing against a 3 year old that had won over 8000 in its previous 5 starts even though when we nominated it was no more than 1000 in last 4 and another 3yr pld that was a expensive purchase an trialed in 56.Thank god he wasnt well now its in the paddock!

[Messenger]

I have to agree with him, we were told about 5 weeks ago we were put in the right eace by the handicapper because the horses form was weak, a 4000 dollar encouragenent so since he has won 1 and now its ok to be racing against a 3 year old that had won over 8000 in its previous 5 starts even though when we nominated it was no more than 1000 in last 4 and another 3yr pld that was a expensive purchase an trialed in 56.Thank god he wasnt well now its in the paddock!

Being a bit of a one-eyed Vic, I am only just starting to get the gist of what is going on up there. I would not race a horse if I did not have a say in where he raced. I can see that pretty soon the old pokies days referral to Vics as 'Mexicans' coming across the border will soon refer to Welshmen coming down to Vic to race their horses

[DRUIDRACING]

Come on the system is working!!!!! full fields very competitve racing less odds on favourites . please give the system a go..............review quickly mr read and co. mr Kahlefeldt has got it right ..............Goullburn CO racing C4 c2 mare racing a C7 mare and only 6 horses in a 12K race yet they race for 4K at dubbo with bigger fields...........then $1500 races on melb cup day disgraceful! we are slipping backwards. Just send all your horses to Menangle Trainers and pay to watch them on TV. Fun Not !!! and for $1600 a month quoted by R.morris........price the hobbyist out of the business,

[Messenger]

2 Restricted Races on the Shep program tonight - that is not a sport going forwards

[trish]

Although Bling just won albeit he's a top horse ,this handicapping system is so wrong. Having to face M2,3,4 & 5's for your 1st start back from a break for an M0 stinks........I have spoken to many & not one is in favour of it..........
1609 METRES FIRST4, TRIFECTA, QUINELLA, EXACTA MOBILE START Form (http://www.harness.org.au/form.cfm?mc=PC031114&rc=PCC03111404) Horse Trainer Other Eng. Driver Class Hcp 16r239ALCHEMY NZ (http://www.harness.org.au/ausbreed/reports/hraonline.htm) http://www.harness.org.au/blackbook/views/bb_icon.gif (http://www.harness.org.au/fields.cfm?mc=PC031114#void) K A TurnerRobert Morris C14 M2 FR1285925MISTER PRESLEY NZ (http://www.harness.org.au/ausbreed/reports/hraonline.htm) http://www.harness.org.au/blackbook/views/bb_icon.gif (http://www.harness.org.au/fields.cfm?mc=PC031114#void) P V WalshMat Rue C10 M4 FR23887s1MEGA ALEXANDER (http://www.harness.org.au/ausbreed/reports/hraonline.htm) http://www.harness.org.au/blackbook/views/bb_icon.gif (http://www.harness.org.au/fields.cfm?mc=PC031114#void) D J McCallDarren McCall C21 M5 FR344s651ROCKETS REJECT (http://www.harness.org.au/ausbreed/reports/hraonline.htm) http://www.harness.org.au/blackbook/views/bb_icon.gif (http://www.harness.org.au/fields.cfm?mc=PC031114#void) I C WilsonJim Douglass C17 M3 FR45165b3RUPEENO CULLEN NZ (http://www.harness.org.au/ausbreed/reports/hraonline.htm) http://www.harness.org.au/blackbook/views/bb_icon.gif (http://www.harness.org.au/fields.cfm?mc=PC031114#void) K A TurnerKerryAnn Turner C9 M1 FR5668193THEARTOFCONFUSION (http://www.harness.org.au/ausbreed/reports/hraonline.htm) http://www.harness.org.au/blackbook/views/bb_icon.gif (http://www.harness.org.au/fields.cfm?mc=PC031114#void) B F CotterillMichael Muscat C7 M0 FR672s125GLENFERRIE HOOD NZ (http://www.harness.org.au/ausbreed/reports/hraonline.htm) http://www.harness.org.au/blackbook/views/bb_icon.gif (http://www.harness.org.au/fields.cfm?mc=PC031114#void) B J McCarthyJohn McCarthy C7 M0 FR7814431GOD SEND NZ (http://www.harness.org.au/ausbreed/reports/hraonline.htm) http://www.harness.org.au/blackbook/views/bb_icon.gif (http://www.harness.org.au/fields.cfm?mc=PC031114#void) K J PizzutoKevin Pizzuto C9 M3 FR891145sCOURAGE TO RULE NZ (http://www.harness.org.au/ausbreed/reports/hraonline.htm) http://www.harness.org.au/blackbook/views/bb_icon.gif (http://www.harness.org.au/fields.cfm?mc=PC031114#void) B J McCarthyTodd McCarthy (C)C12 M1 FR9102122sBLING IT ON (http://www.harness.org.au/ausbreed/reports/hraonline.htm) http://www.harness.org.au/blackbook/views/bb_icon.gif (http://www.harness.org.au/fields.cfm?mc=PC031114#void) B J McCarthyLuke McCarthy C15 M0 FR10

[aussiebreno]

Although Bling just won albeit he's a top horse ,this handicapping system is so wrong. Having to face M2,3,4 & 5's for your 1st start back from a break for an M0 stinks........I have spoken to many & not one is in favour of it..........
1609 METRES FIRST4, TRIFECTA, QUINELLA, EXACTA MOBILE START Form (http://www.harness.org.au/form.cfm?mc=PC031114&rc=PCC03111404) Horse Trainer Other Eng. Driver Class Hcp 16r239ALCHEMY NZ (http://www.harness.org.au/ausbreed/reports/hraonline.htm) http://www.harness.org.au/blackbook/views/bb_icon.gif (http://www.harness.org.au/fields.cfm?mc=PC031114#void) K A TurnerRobert Morris C14 M2 FR1285925MISTER PRESLEY NZ (http://www.harness.org.au/ausbreed/reports/hraonline.htm) http://www.harness.org.au/blackbook/views/bb_icon.gif (http://www.harness.org.au/fields.cfm?mc=PC031114#void) P V WalshMat Rue C10 M4 FR23887s1MEGA ALEXANDER (http://www.harness.org.au/ausbreed/reports/hraonline.htm) http://www.harness.org.au/blackbook/views/bb_icon.gif (http://www.harness.org.au/fields.cfm?mc=PC031114#void) D J McCallDarren McCall C21 M5 FR344s651ROCKETS REJECT (http://www.harness.org.au/ausbreed/reports/hraonline.htm) http://www.harness.org.au/blackbook/views/bb_icon.gif (http://www.harness.org.au/fields.cfm?mc=PC031114#void) I C WilsonJim Douglass C17 M3 FR45165b3RUPEENO CULLEN NZ (http://www.harness.org.au/ausbreed/reports/hraonline.htm) http://www.harness.org.au/blackbook/views/bb_icon.gif (http://www.harness.org.au/fields.cfm?mc=PC031114#void) K A TurnerKerryAnn Turner C9 M1 FR5668193THEARTOFCONFUSION (http://www.harness.org.au/ausbreed/reports/hraonline.htm) http://www.harness.org.au/blackbook/views/bb_icon.gif (http://www.harness.org.au/fields.cfm?mc=PC031114#void) B F CotterillMichael Muscat C7 M0 FR672s125GLENFERRIE HOOD NZ (http://www.harness.org.au/ausbreed/reports/hraonline.htm) http://www.harness.org.au/blackbook/views/bb_icon.gif (http://www.harness.org.au/fields.cfm?mc=PC031114#void) B J McCarthyJohn McCarthy C7 M0 FR7814431GOD SEND NZ (http://www.harness.org.au/ausbreed/reports/hraonline.htm) http://www.harness.org.au/blackbook/views/bb_icon.gif (http://www.harness.org.au/fields.cfm?mc=PC031114#void) K J PizzutoKevin Pizzuto C9 M3 FR891145sCOURAGE TO RULE NZ (http://www.harness.org.au/ausbreed/reports/hraonline.htm) http://www.harness.org.au/blackbook/views/bb_icon.gif (http://www.harness.org.au/fields.cfm?mc=PC031114#void) B J McCarthyTodd McCarthy (C)C12 M1 FR9102122sBLING IT ON (http://www.harness.org.au/ausbreed/reports/hraonline.htm) http://www.harness.org.au/blackbook/views/bb_icon.gif (http://www.harness.org.au/fields.cfm?mc=PC031114#void) B J McCarthyLuke McCarthy C15 M0 FR10

C15. Third highest assessed horse at the meeting. Most prizemoney of any horse at the meeting. Fastest winning mile rate of any horse at the meeting. What handicapping system would he not have started in a race of similar strength? A system where we don't count 3yo wins so he gets to start against the C0s, where El Chango started $1.20 as it was.

[trish]

Hi Brendan , I didn't even realize he is a C15, my mistake but regardless of who he is , how much he has won its a massive jump to metro class for a 4yo.
And the trainer has NO choice to what race he is in. That's my main point. And that stinks.

[aussiebreno]

Hi Brendan , I didn't even realize he is a C15, my mistake but regardless of who he is , how much he has won its a massive jump to metro class for a 4yo.
And the trainer has NO choice to what race he is in. That's my main point. And that stinks.
It was a C race not Metro. He won. He is obviously capable. It would be way more unfair on a C0-C2 to race against a C15.
I'm not sure what the conditions were for the Menangle meeting leading in, but under the old system the race would have been programmed as a C6 (or C whatever) front and more (indeed races have actually been programmed to the effect of C7-C12, which would have ruled Bling out.) The races would have looked near on identical to what it was anyway.
This is no different to Majestic Mach going in a C4+ race first up last year or Frith starting first up in a C6+ last year. Even if Luke McCarthy had 100% control on what race Bling goes into first up it would be either an M0, C6+ (C7+, whatever pedantics, key result is open race) or perhaps first up into a 4yo Championship heat. Luke chose the Country front option and met a field very similar to what he would have done under any handicapping system in the world.
Pick your battles Trish.

[trish]

"Pick my battles" ? I'll keep that one in mind . I'm not battling anyone Brendan. I don't like the system & neither does Any trainer I talk too.

[trish]

http://www.harness.org.au/news/uploads/141031%20Race%20Field%20Process%20&%20Horse%20Preferences.pdf

[aussiebreno]

"Pick my battles" ? I'll keep that one in mind . I'm not battling anyone Brendan. I don't like the system & neither does Any trainer I talk too.
Battle with the handicapping system.

I get it you don't like it. I don't like it either.

Just with this example about Bling It On though. What else in any other handicapping system could be done to avoid him taking on the open class horses? The only answer I see is to restrict 2&3yo wins counting as an aged horse, which has far greater implications on the poor maidens or lower assessed horses that would need to race against him.

[trish]

[QUOTE=aussiebreno;37771]Battle with the handicapping system.

I get it you don't like it. I don't like it either.

Just with this example about Bling It On though. What else in any other handicapping system could be done to avoid him taking on the open class horses? The only answer I see is to restrict 2&3yo wins counting as an aged horse, which has far greater implications on the poor maidens or lower assessed horses that would need to race against him.[/QUOT

I have already said I made a mistake by saying I didn't realize he was a C15. So maybe he could have gone straight to his M0 but I guess he maybe waiting for the $50 thou M0 on MM night.
I agree with his assessment but I know when we bought our 3yo back as a 4yo he was able to be placed in a C7 & better , but no better than M1. And his trainer could place him there. Not counting 3yo wins in their assessment would be a mistake because their could be too many good ones, maybe.
Going to watch the CUP.

[Race For Fun]

I don't want to get in the middle of the above domestic :-) but in years gone by a horse's first six 2 year old wins were free when that horse turned 3 years and the horses first two wins as a 3 year old were free when the horse turned 4 years old. The good old days.

[aussiebreno]

I don't want to get in the middle of the above domestic :-) but in years gone by a horse's first six 2 year old wins were free when that horse turned 3 years and the horses first two wins as a 3 year old were free when the horse turned 4 years old. The good old days.
Not 100% sure how many 2yo wins it is, but the first two 3yo wins are still freebies for when they turn 4. When you have 17 3yo wins it makes it a bit tougher to drop down in grade lol!

[Race For Fun]

Not 100% sure how many 2yo wins it is, but the first two 3yo wins are still freebies for when they turn 4. When you have 17 3yo wins it makes it a bit tougher to drop down in grade lol!

Sorry can't agree with you about 3 year old races being free. They are not now a day. 3 year olds started off as a 2:30 class horse when they turned 4 years old they were 2:28 class. Now a day C0 class races never say excluding 3 year old C races.

[aussiebreno]

Sorry can't agree with you about 3 year old races being free. They are not now a day. 3 year olds started off as a 2:30 class horse when they turned 4 years old they were 2:28 class. Now a day C0 class races never say excluding 3 year old C races.
Win your first 3yo, you are a 3C1. Win your 2nd 3yo you are 3C2. Win your third 3yo you are now 3C3 and C1. First two 3yo wins don't affect age class.

[Race For Fun]

Win your first 3yo, you are a 3C1. Win your 2nd 3yo you are 3C2. Win your third 3yo you are now 3C3 and C1. First two 3yo wins don't affect age class.

Sorry your missing the difference between what it was to be a 3 year old when they were a 2:30 class, win your 1st 3 year old you were a 2:29 class, win your 2nd 3 year old you were a 2:28 class. Turn 4 years old you were classed as a beginner or a novice which was a 2:28 class horse which is the same as a C0 class horse today. But now a day if you won 1 or 2 C class races as a 3 year old you are not eligible for a C0 only class race. Under the old system that I'm talking about you were. Theoretically you could win 6 races as a 2 year old and 2 races as a 3 year old and when you turned 4 years old you were then in what is today a C0 only.

[Messenger]

Is tonight's Newcastle Mile program supposed to be NSW's Metro meeting for this weekend? One $75k race but all the rest only $6k races.

[Race For Fun]

Is tonight's Newcastle Mile program supposed to be NSW's Metro meeting for this weekend? One $75k race but all the rest only $6k races.

No, normal country meeting at Newcastle. Pretty ordinary isn't it.

[The Escape Club]

No, normal country meeting at Newcastle. Pretty ordinary isn't it.


Said it in the other thread on the NM. Last year they ran heats of the Baby Bling ($22k) and Smoken Up ($22k) plus the Mile. All the rest were $6k that night.

[Race For Fun]

Said it in the other thread on the NM. Last year they ran heats of the Baby Bling ($22k) and Smoken Up ($22k) plus the Mile. All the rest were $6k that night.

Yep.

[Messenger]

Said it in the other thread on the NM. Last year they ran heats of the Baby Bling ($22k) and Smoken Up ($22k) plus the Mile. All the rest were $6k that night.

I remember that now Rob but clearly I did not digest it - I'll blame it on my Victorian allegiance

[The Escape Club]

I remember that now Rob but clearly I did not digest it - I'll blame it on my Victorian allegiance


Doesn't seem that long ago Kev, time flies. It was the night that Panella got 4 weeks.

[Race For Fun]

http://www.harness.org.au/news-article.cfm?news_id=25060
http://www.harness.org.au/news-article.cfm?news_id=25090

The rest of NSW need to watch out or SA might go past them re: prize money (excluding Menangle).

[Messenger]

Good money at Menangle tomorrow night.
Metro races are now $5k more than Melton ie 30% !!
(not sure about the last however - it cannot be a real M0)
and Career Class are $2k more ie 20%

[Richard prior]

Would really like to hear how it could be improved please??

[Rob Nalder]

Richard,

I welcome your thread on this topic / subject. Also I would ask everyone with thoughts on same to attend Sunday's 18th of January Owners meeting set down for 1 p/m at Penrith. It is extremely important for the industry to understand and express there views in a professional manner. As such I look forward to following everyone's views as expressed under this thread.

[Messenger]

I cannot believe that trainers/owners cannot enter horses for specific races - I would not race under such restrictions. Have I got that right? Whoever pays the horse's bills has to be able to determine its program via his nominated trainer

[p plater]

The last race at Newcastle tomorrow is probably a good example of owner and trainers frustration with the system. In an effort to make up a race, the "untouchables" in the handicappers dept have decided to allow the mares concession plus junior drivers allowance to create a C2-C4 race. But look at the field C1-C5.
Race 8 GARRARDS HORSE & HOUND PACE 5:32 PM http://www.harness.org.au/images/print.gif C2 To C4. PBD/C. Prizemoney: $5,100 2030 METRES TRIFECTA, QUINELLA, EXACTA, 4TH LEG QUADRELLA, FIRST4 MOBILE START Form (http://www.harness.org.au/form.cfm?mc=NR130115&rc=NRC13011504) Horse Trainer Other Eng. Driver Class Hcp 1 26s73 BLACK BELT (http://www.harness.org.au/ausbreed/reports/hraonline.htm) http://www.harness.org.au/blackbook/views/bb_icon.gif (http://www.harness.org.au/fields.cfm?mc=NR130115#void) C J Harmey
Grace Grant (C)
C1 M0 FR1 2 83349 DARK DEFENDER (http://www.harness.org.au/ausbreed/reports/hraonline.htm) http://www.harness.org.au/blackbook/views/bb_icon.gif (http://www.harness.org.au/fields.cfm?mc=NR130115#void) P A Bourke
Polly Downing (C)
C2 M0 FR2 3 45s67 ULTIMATE TRUMP (http://www.harness.org.au/ausbreed/reports/hraonline.htm) http://www.harness.org.au/blackbook/views/bb_icon.gif (http://www.harness.org.au/fields.cfm?mc=NR130115#void) M A Formosa
Madelene Bond (C,cl)
C4 M0 FR3 4 72252 GLASSCUTTERSPIRIT (http://www.harness.org.au/ausbreed/reports/hraonline.htm) http://www.harness.org.au/blackbook/views/bb_icon.gif (http://www.harness.org.au/fields.cfm?mc=NR130115#void) S P Tritton
Brad Elder (C,cl)
C4 M0 FR4 5 94131 BLIZZARD OF OZZ (http://www.harness.org.au/ausbreed/reports/hraonline.htm) http://www.harness.org.au/blackbook/views/bb_icon.gif (http://www.harness.org.au/fields.cfm?mc=NR130115#void) A P Francis
Adam Francis
C3 M0 FR5 6 1719s SECOND MAJOR (http://www.harness.org.au/ausbreed/reports/hraonline.htm) http://www.harness.org.au/blackbook/views/bb_icon.gif (http://www.harness.org.au/fields.cfm?mc=NR130115#void) R E Roots Snr
Lauren Panella (C)
C3 M0 FR6 7 5571s HIT FOR SIX (http://www.harness.org.au/ausbreed/reports/hraonline.htm) http://www.harness.org.au/blackbook/views/bb_icon.gif (http://www.harness.org.au/fields.cfm?mc=NR130115#void) L G McDonald
Jackson McDonald (C,cl)
C5 M0 FR7 8 65353 HOLLYS FANTASY (http://www.harness.org.au/ausbreed/reports/hraonline.htm) http://www.harness.org.au/blackbook/views/bb_icon.gif (http://www.harness.org.au/fields.cfm?mc=NR130115#void) M N Howell
Martin Howell
C5 M0 FR8

[Race For Fun]

I don't think that you will get many owners and trainers who are happy with the fact that when you nominate your horse/horses for a race at the moment all you can do is nominate for a C0 and better or C2 and better as it has been changed to in the last few weeks, it's just a one in all in. Where it is most annoying is on half mile tracks. Almost everyone wants to draw the front on these tracks. If you have a C1 class horse that you nominated for a CO and better you didn't know if you looking at drawing one or ten. What you have lost is the ability to place your horse.

You hear people say (and have said it yourself) why would you nominate for a race that is two or three hours traveling time away on a half mile track when they will put you in whatever race suits them. When the races were programmed CO-C1, C1-C2 or C2-C3 trainers had the option nominating for the harder class with the general expectation that on a half mile track the horse will at least draw in close. If you have two C2 class horses you would nominate one for the C1 front and the other for the C2 front, as it is there is always a chance both your horses could end up in the same race even thou the authority say "we try to separate horses from the same trainer". Why nominate for somewhere that will cost you about $200 in fuel alone when you don't know if you will end up racing against yourself. Most trainer/drivers want to drive their own horses after all they are the one doing all the hard work each and every day.

The people who supply the horses that make up the industry are not given any say in what race their horse starts in. This is simply not right and would not happen anywhere else. Imagine going to Woolies to buy your groceries and having some faceless person inform you that can't buy that chicken today, you have to buy fish because we have a lot of it to sell, you would take your money a shop somewhere else. That is what owners are doing they are leaving the industry through frustration.

No matter how you cut it handicappers are not horse trainers they are handicappers and they should be drawing up the fields from horses that the trainers nominate for each race. For years the authority has been tweaking with the industry to improve it (as they should). But administrators should administer and trainers who train the horses should be in charge of what grade/class of race their horses are nominated in.

[gregcattell]

well said

[DRUIDRACING]

Re: owners meeting 18th of january.........who is running this event this is the first time i have heard of this meeting. great idea for the owners to be heard. Due to work commitments and length of travel I wont be attending. Im sure there is a data base of owners so this could be advertised more. Maybe a survey form / comment form could be sent out so we can comment if we are unavailable to attend these meetings. I know there is any quick fix but however Goulburn Race 1 on the 5/1/2015 had an interesting runner in it !!! no better than C1 ? c3 mare with concession C2 any comments ??

[Rob Nalder]

It has been advertised over the past 3-4 weeks in Trottguide. The NSW Owners association is running the meeting. Personally I think it is a a very good idea. This will give all owners a chance to listen as well as contribute with there thoughts. In fact it should be an annual event for all participants to attend and contribute in a professional manner. Hopefully a large number can attend so as to show our Administrators that our industry Owners are very important and furthermore should be given credit for what they contribute day in day out to our sport.

[p plater]

It has been advertised over the past 3-4 weeks in Trottguide. The NSW Owners association is running the meeting. Personally I think it is a a very good idea. This will give all owners a chance to listen as well as contribute with there thoughts. In fact it should be an annual event for all participants to attend and contribute in a professional manner. Hopefully a large number can attend so as to show our Administrators that our industry Owners are very important and furthermore should be given credit for what they contribute day in day out to our sport.

Rob, I hope there is a great turnout, as something must be done for owners/trainers in placing their horses but I bet you hear that turnover is the lifeblood of the sport and from what I hear it will be stated that with this new system and the reduction of odds on runners has seen the para Tab down a bit but fixed odds and Corporates up $5 million. I can't back these figures up but a reliable source.

[Rob Nalder]

It would be good to see a great roll up. What changes HRNSW have made has improved the Handicaping System big time from what was 1st offered. (in my opinion). I do hear talk about turn over as being critcal to our future, however without going to far into my feelings the number 1 issue is Ownership of Racing & Breeding stock. Without Owners nothing works. So we need Owners to provide Stock for Punters to bet on, then tackle the 2nd issue of Turn Over. It will be very interesting to see the roll up, hopefully you & heaps of other Owners attend to place your views and thoughts before the Owners Ass, so as to follow up against with HRNSW.

[Rob Nalder]

Following on from Sundays Owners meeting at Penrith Harness Racing Club, conducted by NSW Owners Association a big thank you is called for as it was without doubt the best run and most constructive forum I have attended. To Terry Neil well done in conducting a free flowing and very professional meeting. As an Owner/ Breeder I found it most constructive and extremely well attended. I wait now on seeing and reading all the findings placed before the Owners Ass on the day by the Participants in attendance. Also good to see and catch up with Old Frends. I should also acknowledge the fact that Rod Smith (Board member HRNSW) was taking everything in and taking heaps of notes. Hopefully with the way this Owners Association has conducted such a meeting we can have see it growing substantially in membership as we need a strong and effective body acting on our best interests. I'd like to get others feedback who also attended as I did see several faces from this Forum / Link.

[Messenger]

With Metro races worth $22,260 in NSW and only $16,350 in VIC which equates to a whopping 36% difference and with weekday stakes due to increase to $8k is NSW leaving Vic behind

[Messenger]

Over a year later and nothing has changed - an M0 in NSW is still worth 36% more (nearly $6k diff).

[DRUIDRACING]

wonderful !!! some country meetings still racing for $1500............... nothing has changed. waste of time going

[Messenger]

Givemeaspell won his M0 at Melton last Friday and collected $9,120
Mister Brazil won his M0 at Menangle last Saturday and collected $12,600

To match NSW, Vic would have to increase the winner's cheque by 38%

http://www.harness.org.au/meeting-results.cfm?mc=MX211016&ms=vic#MXM21101602

http://www.harness.org.au/meeting-results.cfm?mc=PC221016&ms=nsw&fromstate=nsw#PCM22101608

[Danno]

While I would never bag increases in prize money Kev, Victoria never had a Harold Park to sell and that difference is at very least partly made up by funding from the investments of Harold Park's sale price. It was a wonderful windfall for the game and with wise investment in the years to come will make some difference to the games future.

[Messenger]

Hi folks, latest posts about increasing breeding have been moved to 'Holy Database Batman - Foal Numbers'

[trish]

http://www.harness.org.au/news-article.cfm?news_id=31895




Note the hardest hit is country finals loosing $5000

[djgood]

Can't have the city boys going poor

[DRUIDRACING]

All a part of the master plan to get horses to the main trainers............in the city or regional areas.......they are slowly making it harder for the smaller trainers to survive in the country areas. I for one will not be sending any of my horses to a larger stable. I want to be involved in all aspects of this fine industry and be able to see my horses in close proximity to where i live. I am pleased the way my trainers look after my horses and I can see them anytime.