Should Harness Racing Introduce Drivers Colours?

[Maorisidol]

This was a "hot topic" on In The Gig tonite and it sure gets some people hot.
I loved Dan Mieleckis explanation of the opposing view and Tappy also in support of the Owners who put on the sport as well.
Gareth Hall seemed to come up with only the type of opinion "for" that Dan described, fairly hollow argument with not much thought, i also agree with Dan and John
I feel as drivers jump on certain horses and jump off, as Dan described its so much harder to recognise horses if the colours change all the time.
Personally i think its great where the Trainers colours are consistently used such as looking for the yellow Aiken colours, or the Chris Lang colours or Van Ryn, Grant Dixon etc.
Whats everybody's thoughts?

[Race For Fun]

I think if the owner pays to buy or breed the horse, pays to get the horse educated and pays to have the horse trained the owner is entitled to have the horse race in their colours. If a punter is either too dumb or too lazy to read a program or study the form they deserve to do their money. Punters are important but without the owners there is no racing

[Triple V]

The powers that be will have to prize our colours out of my dead clenched fist.

[Danno]

I think if the owner pays to buy or breed the horse, pays to get the horse educated and pays to have the horse trained the owner is entitled to have the horse race in their colours. If a punter is either too dumb or too lazy to read a program or study the form they deserve to do their money. Punters are important but without the owners there is no racing

100% spot on!

[Mitch]

There are far bigger issues to deal with than this. I can't believe it gets any air time.

[aussiebreno]

There are far bigger issues to deal with than this. I can't believe it gets any air time.Spot on. A once weekly half hour (less ads) show and this is what they talk about? I just didn't want to be the first to post it!

[DRUIDRACING]

This was spoken about 3 to 4 years ago and Johny Tapp thought it was good idea. Having not watched the program this time it sounds like he has switched camps. This is another way of trying to drive the hobby trainer / Driver out of the sport and creating the Menangle Super Proffessional Area. Most of the changes they make is all moving in that direction, squeezing them out. I for one will leave the sport if they continue reduce the country money and race at Menangle for big $$$ (with 8 or less horses in each race "great for turnover" ), I like to be involved with my horses and I can see how they are trained and cared for not just watching them on Tv and getting a monthly bill. Instead of treading on the little guy give us an equal oportunity to succeed in this wonderful industry...............promote the good stuff and then turnover will increase. rant over!! btw love seeing my colours going around.

[Messenger]

They can just have the horses numbers coloured or the drivers helmets . Like HRA not even having the Trainers on their results database - it is about time the powers that be realized that Owners and Trainers are more important than Drivers.
The only problem I find with colours is the abundance of yellow.

[p plater]

If this suggestion of Drivers colours is such a wonderful idea to increase turnover, imagine the turnover if the Thoroughbreds went to Jockey colours.
I would like to hear the conversation to Queen Elizabeth to tell her, her horse will carry a junior claim jockeys colours this week.
People love their colours leave it alone.

[mightymo]

This was spoken about 3 to 4 years ago and Johny Tapp thought it was good idea. Having not watched the program this time it sounds like he has switched camps. This is another way of trying to drive the hobby trainer / Driver out of the sport and creating the Menangle Super Proffessional Area. Most of the changes they make is all moving in that direction, squeezing them out. I for one will leave the sport if they continue reduce the country money and race at Menangle for big $$$ (with 8 or less horses in each race "great for turnover" ), I like to be involved with my horses and I can see how they are trained and cared for not just watching them on Tv and getting a monthly bill. Instead of treading on the little guy give us an equal oportunity to succeed in this wonderful industry...............promote the good stuff and then turnover will increase. rant over!! btw love seeing my colours going around.

Hi Steven

There is something that I think is worth pointing out. That is, the difference between Harness Racing New South Wales(HRNSW) and the New South Wales harness racing club(NSWHRC)

Harold Park was owned by NSWHRC. They chose to sell it and relocate to Menangle. They still control the proceeds from the sale and hence Menangle has the biggest prizemoney.

This is not a case of HRNSW picking on country tracks and giving money to Menangle at others expense.

Hopefully I explained that correctly!

Regards

Harvey

[Triple V]

This was spoken about 3 to 4 years ago and Johny Tapp thought it was good idea. Having not watched the program this time it sounds like he has switched camps. This is another way of trying to drive the hobby trainer / Driver out of the sport and creating the Menangle Super Proffessional Area. Most of the changes they make is all moving in that direction, squeezing them out. I for one will leave the sport if they continue reduce the country money and race at Menangle for big $$$ (with 8 or less horses in each race "great for turnover" ), I like to be involved with my horses and I can see how they are trained and cared for not just watching them on Tv and getting a monthly bill. Instead of treading on the little guy give us an equal oportunity to succeed in this wonderful industry...............promote the good stuff and then turnover will increase. rant over!! btw love seeing my colours going around.

VVV- John has always strongly opposed the removal of Owners colours. He HATES the idea.
Adam 'Minty Man Nº1' Hamilton was the one doing the bidding of the TAB. Hayes was in favour of it too.

[Amlin]

The top 10 drivers in Victoria last season are also all registered trainers and therefore have their own colours. Only one (D Douglas), appears not to have any registered colours on HarnessWeb. All the others do.


End of argument?

[DRUIDRACING]

Thanks Harvey.......... I do understand that. They both compliment each other in a industry which is just holding on and by helping each other the industry will rise again. Then why are they not attracting full fields even with the better prizemoney ? Can you answer me that. There must be other things other than colours that will improve the fields. Maybe the past few years of negativity has driven people from the industry? I love my racing and breeding and have not raced a horse for 3+ years for various reasons. Menangle been there once only with 2 horses both in the same race one came first one came last totally enjoyed the day, winning helped.

[DRUIDRACING]

Thanks Jamie memory failure, thought this issue had gone away. The numbers are the same colours as the greyhounds.

[Triple V]

The top 10 drivers in Victoria last season are also all registered trainers and therefore have their own colours. Only one (D Douglas), appears not to have any registered colours on HarnessWeb. All the others do.


End of argument?





VVV- End of argument? How so? Nobody is talking about Trainers colours or Drivers colours. These Bozos are talking about forcing Owners to use Drivers colours. As I said, dragged from my dead clenched fist. As if the Owners are not already viewed as necessary evils by all and sundry in Administration and the TAB. As if they have not had enough insult added to injury....now once again some TAB drop kick is wanting to take their Colours away? Adam Hamilton should hang his head in shame for the ongoing support he has given this idea.

[Messenger]

The top 10 drivers in Victoria last season are also all registered trainers and therefore have their own colours. Only one (D Douglas), appears not to have any registered colours on HarnessWeb. All the others do.


End of argument?

Your ? mark tells me that you know what I am going to say Kyle. For starters <10% of Chris Alford's drives are for himself

[Tangles]

Sure let them wear their colours in a race, but only when they pay the bills.

[Race For Fun]

What could happen is the poor old trainer won't be able to pick their own horse out in a race because their horse has had four different drivers and colours in it's last four starts.

Imagine trying this with Bart Cummings.

[Amlin]

My point is...the original question on Twitter asked if drivers colours should be introduced.

As nine out of the top ten drivers have colours registered, they already own "drivers colours". As would each person who already holds a trainer/driver licence.

I dont feel people should be encouraged to buy horses at the sales "but sorry you cannot have your own silks".

Surely much more serious issues regarding the future of our sport than this one that gets bought up on ITG each year.

[aussiebreno]

My point is...the original question on Twitter asked if drivers colours should be introduced.

As nine out of the top ten drivers have colours registered, they already own "drivers colours". As would each person who already holds a trainer/driver licence.

I dont feel people should be encouraged to buy horses at the sales "but sorry you cannot have your own silks".

Surely much more serious issues regarding the future of our sport than this one that gets bought up on ITG each year.Kyle, When Alford and co are driving for Emma Stewart, David Aiken, Dean Braun etc they aren't wearing drivers colours. It is a completely different dynamic.

[Mitch]

This was spoken about 3 to 4 years ago and Johny Tapp thought it was good idea. Having not watched the program this time it sounds like he has switched camps. This is another way of trying to drive the hobby trainer / Driver out of the sport and creating the Menangle Super Proffessional Area. Most of the changes they make is all moving in that direction, squeezing them out. I for one will leave the sport if they continue reduce the country money and race at Menangle for big $$$ (with 8 or less horses in each race "great for turnover" ), I like to be involved with my horses and I can see how they are trained and cared for not just watching them on Tv and getting a monthly bill. Instead of treading on the little guy give us an equal oportunity to succeed in this wonderful industry...............promote the good stuff and then turnover will increase. rant over!! btw love seeing my colours going around.

Hi Steven,

I would been keen to better understand exactly how/why you think the hobbyists are being driven out of the sport and that the sport is only holding on by a thread?

I sometimes get really frustrated reading posts on this forum as they constantly perpetuate the fact that our industry is dying. IT IS NOT DYING AND NEVER WILL DIE. Sure, we are declining and there are headwinds to be overcome but there is still so much opportunity for harness racing to prosper and maintain a healthy share of the racing landscape in Australia. If you read the thoroughbred racing fact book you will note there are some serious declines as well but to their credit they have better adapted their product to remain appealing and hence wagering revenue is very strong.

Specifically in regards to the hobbyist I think both HRNSW and NSWHRC have done more than most to support country racing in NSW. NSWHRC provide additional funding (of their own accord) to the country series which allows heats to be run for $7k at country tracks and finals at Menangle of $10k. The investment in new country tracks and possibly training centres is terrific. For the sport to prosper there has to be better delineation between hobbyists and professional so that a premium product can be offered to attract new users from a punting perspective. This is critical to maintain share but it will only be done in certain areas.

In regards to the future of the sport I think there are a lot of positives and opportunities. In my opinion the reason harness has declined is due to 2 primary factors. 1. Lack of innovation and evolution of the harness racing product to suit the current/future market and to better compete against increased competition such as sports betting. 2. Lack of integrity.

Now more than ever the above 2 issues are being corrected. NSW has the best integrity of any racing jurisdiction in Australia and over time I feel the other states will catch up. The product development is now being addressed and whilst a lot more still needs to be done, I think harness racing can have a prosperous future with good leadership, governance and most importantly collaboration between the states.

The best thing we can all do for our sport is to encourage and embrace change and not be critical when they make mistakes. Not all change works the first time.

Drivers colours will do absolutely nothing to benefit harness racing.

As I have repeatedly stated it also requires the current participants to understand and accept that the changes required will not always be favourable to us as individuals but if we expect our industry to change and improve we must also do that ourselves.

Sorry for the rant but I think it needed to be said.

[Race For Fun]

So will they have one set of colours for horses they train and a different set when freelance? If so that would have to be the same for all drivers.

[Amlin]

Kyle, When Alford and co are driving for Emma Stewart, David Aiken, Dean Braun etc they aren't wearing drivers colours. It is a completely different dynamic.

But would Alford be required to wear his own set instead if they introduced drivers colours rather than Braun's etc?

[Danno]

Drivers colours will do absolutely nothing to benefit harness
racing.


Once again agree, with most of your points Mitch, none moreso than this one line, which is the relevant one for this thread.

A complete waste of time and energy chasing " drivers colours" as any sort of antidote to the decline in Harness racing's relevance, to be quite honest I'm dissapointed with myself for giving the thread another post.

Cheers,
Dan.

[Lucky Camilla"s Lovechild]

VVV- End of argument? How so? Nobody is talking about Trainers colours or Drivers colours. These Bozos are talking about forcing Owners to use Drivers colours. As I said, dragged from my dead clenched fist. As if the Owners are not already viewed as necessary evils by all and sundry in Administration and the TAB. As if they have not had enough insult added to injury....now once again some TAB drop kick is wanting to take their Colours away? Adam Hamilton should hang his head in shame for the ongoing support he has given this idea.
Drivers colours aside, I'm not really sure what your beef is with Adam Hamilton. Since Adam left the Herald Sun, harness racing exposure, particularly in the said paper, has suffered. He also pointed this out when bagging his former workplace for its lack of coverage for Smoken Ups farewell race at Melton. It was harness racings loss when he went to the TAB.

[cyclone george]

Mitch agree with most you say in your post, but gallops turnover has also stagnated for a few years now as well . I have always been a big fan of drivers colors just for the reason kids fall in love with either horses or drivers. My 9yo son loves the horses but my 12yo girl follows the drivers. I don't think trainers these days could really complain about colors theres barely a race these days a drivers not wearing promo colors for some cause. Owners colors are important for owners and I respect that , but so is growth in ownership and turnover .if people could just get together and put the industry first and look outside the square we might be all better off. If terry bailey thinks its a no brainier ,that's good enough for me because he was quite clearly the best steward /admin employee that hrv has ever had .

[Messenger]

Mitch, I would add a third reason for decline and that would be lack of media coverage/promotion. We have failed to break down the bias that the gallopers enjoy. Maybe your first reason encompassed this too but I do not see it as innovation just catching up.
I will forget pay TV for the moment although with the reduction in subscriptions beginning to happen, maybe it can reach enough non converts in the future, but with so many free to air channels now struggling for content how is it that the gallops can put their product on 7Two for more than half the Saturdays of the year and we cannot get ours on any. I think the gallops have realized that with people increasingly betting on TV sport, they needed to be on TV more. Of course they have always had fair News hour coverage and for their carnivlas, this alone we would kill for.
Newspapers are in decline but could still provide valuable coverage/promotion. The Age gives us nothing so maybe we just have to pay for a half page for big carnivals. They cannot refuse our money - they have prostituted themselves for some ridiculous stuff this year. If we were a customer then maybe they will butter us up with a column inch or two sometimes

[Triple V]

Drivers colours aside, I'm not really sure what your beef is with Adam Hamilton. Since Adam left the Herald Sun, harness racing exposure, particularly in the said paper, has suffered. He also pointed this out when bagging his former workplace for its lack of coverage for Smoken Ups farewell race at Melton. It was harness racings loss when he went to the TAB.





VVV- Ok. Let's start with this 'zap' the Owners Colours & replace them with Drivers Colours routine... and the way in which he SHAMELESSLY sock-puppeted the TAB's agenda by way of getting on In The Gig & SKY & couching it as genuine comment on a pressing Industry issue.
Others in the same & related employ have championed various excursions into insanity such as the ridiculous one lap 1000m burns in Greyhound regalia complete with 1 the red ect. Another straight up insult.
So yes, there's my beef. Minty Man Number 1's not the only one guilty of astro-turfing an Industry NON-ISSUE in order to pass it off as having genuine grass roots support.
They're all guilty of it. Some are worse than others....but his was infamous by way of openly supporting the abolition of Owners Colours, the subject of this thread.

[Triple V]

If terry bailey thinks its a no brainier ,that's good enough for me because he was quite clearly the best steward /admin employee that hrv has ever had .


VVV- I'm still waiting for him to explain how it was ever even remotely thought possible that a stand alone substance such as Arsenic could ever be a metabolite of ITPP. Nice old clanger there Tezza.
http://www.harnessracingforum.com/showthread.php?1560-Its-not-a-level-playing-field/page3

[Lucky Camilla"s Lovechild]

VVV- Ok. Let's start with this 'zap' the Owners Colours & replace them with Drivers Colours routine... and the way in which he SHAMELESSLY sock-puppeted the TAB's agenda by way of getting on In The Gig & SKY & couching it as genuine comment on a pressing Industry issue.
Others in the same & related employ have championed various excursions into insanity such as the ridiculous one lap 1000m burns in Greyhound regalia complete with 1 the red ect. Another straight up insult.
So yes, there's my beef. Minty Man Number 1's not the only one guilty of astro-turfing an Industry NON-ISSUE in order to pass it off as having genuine grass roots support.
They're all guilty of it. Some are worse than others....but his was infamous by way of openly supporting the abolition of Owners Colours, the subject of this thread.
Come on Jamie. Youve had a problem with Adam long before this. Hence your 'Minty Man' nickname for him and Mick Guerin.

[cyclone george]

Jamie I'll assure if he was running the Nsw harness racing ten years ago instead of Victoria you wouldn't be trying to clean up all mess now. Don't know of a steward that was so tough but in the end had the respect of everyone,everyone knew where they stood.

[Mitch]

Mitch agree with most you say in your post, but gallops turnover has also stagnated for a few years now as well . I have always been a big fan of drivers colors just for the reason kids fall in love with either horses or drivers. My 9yo son loves the horses but my 12yo girl follows the drivers. I don't think trainers these days could really complain about colors theres barely a race these days a drivers not wearing promo colors for some cause. Owners colors are important for owners and I respect that , but so is growth in ownership and turnover .if people could just get together and put the industry first and look outside the square we might be all better off. If terry bailey thinks its a no brainier ,that's good enough for me because he was quite clearly the best steward /admin employee that hrv has ever had .

Hi Greg,

I don't mind if they change to drivers colours or not. What I am saying is that it will have no material impact on anything in the industry so let's not waste too much time on it.

Mitch.

[Mitch]

Mitch, I would add a third reason for decline and that would be lack of media coverage/promotion. We have failed to break down the bias that the gallopers enjoy. Maybe your first reason encompassed this too but I do not see it as innovation just catching up.
I will forget pay TV for the moment although with the reduction in subscriptions beginning to happen, maybe it can reach enough non converts in the future, but with so many free to air channels now struggling for content how is it that the gallops can put their product on 7Two for more than half the Saturdays of the year and we cannot get ours on any. I think the gallops have realized that with people increasingly betting on TV sport, they needed to be on TV more. Of course they have always had fair News hour coverage and for their carnivlas, this alone we would kill for.
Newspapers are in decline but could still provide valuable coverage/promotion. The Age gives us nothing so maybe we just have to pay for a half page for big carnivals. They cannot refuse our money - they have prostituted themselves for some ridiculous stuff this year. If we were a customer then maybe they will butter us up with a column inch or two sometimes

Hi Kevin,

I agree and it is implied in my 1st point re product innovation. To be brutally honest I don't think our sport has evolved enough to be in the mainstream for free to air media.

It's going to be hard to break back in but there are so many other communication platforms to reach people these days that it's not doom and gloom. People spend more time on their personal devices and social media than they do watching TV so that is where I would start.

Mitch.

[Triple V]

Come on Jamie. Youve had a problem with Adam long before this. Hence your 'Minty Man' nickname for him and Mick Guerin.


VVV- Quite right. They've both been doing it for years as have numerous others. This is just one of his more recent, imo, transgressions.

[Messenger]

Hi Kevin,

I agree and it is implied in my 1st point re product innovation. To be brutally honest I don't think our sport has evolved enough to be in the mainstream for free to air media.

It's going to be hard to break back in but there are so many other communication platforms to reach people these days that it's not doom and gloom. People spend more time on their personal devices and social media than they do watching TV so that is where I would start.

Mitch.
I know I am old fashioned Mitch but I would still love to see some TV coverage. You can then advertise that it is on ......... Has a lot more appeal to me than spruiking that you can get an app to watch it on your teeny little screen.

And we could fit into whatever is available - maybe there could be a Sunday afternoon opening on one of the many digital channels for some part of the year. There is really is some rubbish and repetition on them now.

Wishful thinking I guess but I wish I was sure that our administrators are busting a gut to break down some of the barriers

[Race For Fun]

Many years ago Kerry Packer went to Harold Park of a friday night on a regular basis and bet big. If he could have been kept interested in harness racing, who knows what might have happened. Was that a missed opportunity? He wouldn't have been told "your horse is racing in these colours".

[Lucky Camilla"s Lovechild]

VVV- Quite right. They've both been doing it for years as have numerous others. This is just one of his more recent, imo, transgressions.
Oh. I thought he may have ran over your dog or picked up your girlfriend or something.

[Plunge Punter]

This issue surrounding driver's colours has been quite funny to sit back and watch. I really don't care either way what happens, I couldn't care less really what colours a driver wears when he/she drives a horse. Here are some questions I would love to have answered though;

1. Is this biggest issue currently facing the sport?
2. Is this in the top 50 issues currently facing the sport?
3. How much will driver's wearing their own colours increase wagering turnover on harness racing?
4. Would any CEO really want to risk all the political pain of messing with what colours drivers currently wear for what is very questionable if there will be any gain?
5. If this is the silver bullet to increase wagering turnover, why haven't the gallops industry in Australia been using jockey's colours?
6. Don't trainers currently have the option on HarnessWeb to nominate with the driver's colours?
7. How will driver's wearing their own set of colours instead of the owners/trainer's colours improve the driver's professionalism as some have suggested on Twitter?
8. Will this really be the final blow to hobby trainers as some have suggested if driver's colours are introduced?
9. Will owners really leave in droves because they can no longer use their own personal colours as some have suggested?
10. Why do people in the harness industry constantly look at how issues affect them instead of taking a step back and looking at how certain issues affect the WHOLE industry?

As I said, I really don't care either way, if the colours are or are not changed, it won't change my wagering habits one bit. It just amazes me sometimes how people come to their conclusions/views on the industry. Are their thoughts formulated based on emotions, facts or what is in their own best interests?

[Race For Fun]

I think the fact that owners pay to have horses trained is part of the reason that they care about what colours are in the photo that takes pride of place over the bar.

[Messenger]

10. Why do people in the harness industry constantly look at how issues affect them instead of taking a step back and looking at how certain issues affect the WHOLE industry?

As I said, I really don't care either way, if the colours are or are not changed, it won't change my wagering habits one bit. It just amazes me sometimes how people come to their conclusions/views on the industry. Are their thoughts formulated based on emotions, facts or what is in their own best interests?

Here is one more question:

In what industry does No.10 not happen?

[Plunge Punter]

If people love the industry as much as what the say, shouldn't they be putting the industry's interests before personal interests?

[Messenger]

Although you have not answered my Question at all BECAUSE we are no different from any other industry, I think that the answer to your last question is that "they often do (in the end)". Whether that be the case over this minor matter who knows

ps It could be argued that 'punters' such as yourself should be putting the industry first by going out of their way to keep owners (who provide the show) happy ;)

[Triple V]

Oh. I thought he may have ran over your dog or picked up your girlfriend or something.



VVV-There's a line there that involves swapping the aformentioned but I'll refrain from running with it lest I offend the sensibilities of some of the more God fearing Forum contributors. :-P

[Plunge Punter]

Q. 10 obviously went straight over your head Kevin. I am sitting on the fence with the driver's colours I don't care either way. Im both an owner and punter. Without punters owners would only be only racing for ribbons, without owners punters would not be betting on racing, I have a grasp how the system works!

I just put up some questions I thought could be easily answered. I wasn't knocking knocking the sport.

I just made the observation if people love harness racing so much, why do they put their personal interests ahead of the industries best interests? No need to be so sensitive!

[Danno]

Kev and Steve,
please go and have a "virtual" beer together,

after said beer, you will stop argueing about all the things you both agree with, I'm getting sore eyes from reading stuff that doesn't make any difference!!!

Cheers,
Dan

[Messenger]

Q. 10 obviously went straight over your head Kevin. I am sitting on the fence with the driver's colours I don't care either way. Im both an owner and punter. Without punters owners would only be only racing for ribbons, without owners punters would not be betting on racing, I have a grasp how the system works!

I just put up some questions I thought could be easily answered. I wasn't knocking knocking the sport.

I just made the observation if people love harness racing so much, why do they put their personal interests ahead of the industries best interests? No need to be so sensitive!
I promise you that I am not being sensitive Steve (not sure what gave that impression)
It was just that your last question jumped out at me for the fact that I cannot think of a profession/interest group/industry that does not think of itself first - it would just seem to be human nature BUT thankfully sometimes on reflection they show a better side of themselves.
I hope you had your virtual beer too Steve because I do not have any problems with you mate

PS Did Dan say he would pay for those beers ?