Why are people walking away from harness racing?

[Danno]

heres a bit of a heads up, look at Newcastle so far tonight, Race 1 for "C1" pacers....check out the lifetime and recent form of the horses in this race.....no wonder a C1 is nearly as hard to win as a C5....drop back clause, mares concessions and junior drivers concessions gone F...ing mad.....then!!!!!!! check out the fifth, geez I'd love to have the ability to improve horses that much in 3 or 4 days, super trainer! never seen anyone else that can do that so consistently.

[Messenger]

That was a tough C1 Dan, the 4yo's were legit C1's with VG form but ran into that hot lot.
As for a horse improving its best MR by over 4 seconds after a stable change this week - I don't know what to say

[p plater]

heres a bit of a heads up, look at Newcastle so far tonight, Race 1 for "C1" pacers....check out the lifetime and recent form of the horses in this race.....no wonder a C1 is nearly as hard to win as a C5....drop back clause, mares concessions and junior drivers concessions gone F...ing mad.....then!!!!!!! check out the fifth, geez I'd love to have the ability to improve horses that much in 3 or 4 days, super trainer! never seen anyone else that can do that so consistently.

Fair go Dan, prior to tonights 1.55.5 it has run a previous best of 1.59.7. Its only improved over 4 seconds!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Race For Fun]

heres a bit of a heads up, look at Newcastle so far tonight, Race 1 for "C1" pacers....check out the lifetime and recent form of the horses in this race.....no wonder a C1 is nearly as hard to win as a C5....drop back clause, mares concessions and junior drivers concessions gone F...ing mad.....then!!!!!!! check out the fifth, geez I'd love to have the ability to improve horses that much in 3 or 4 days, super trainer! never seen anyone else that can do that so consistently.

Yes Dan that's exactly why participants are walking away. We work all week and work/feed our horses before and after work to front up to this.

Horses should only get one let up either driver or sex not both. Why should old horses on the way down get advantages over young horses on the way up. They say breed foals, why when you can go and buy an 5-6 year old horse that has raced (all hard work done for you) and you know it can run. Put a junior driver on or give it a few runs and drop back a grade, junior back on and now your back two grades (three with a mare). Why breed from your mare just keep racing her, junior driver on mares drop back, wear her out and don't worry about breeding from her at all.

I am not even going to comment on rocket type improvements of some horses that have had over 50 race starts. How many improve over four seconds after that many starts. Please.................

Yes how indeed do you stop people from throwing their hands in the air and just walking away from the industry?

[NormanS]

The cynic in me has to ask because the stewards’ results notes say that they didn’t: Newcastle Race 5, I would have a "Query Improved Performance" on #6 Our Orville NZ. On Monday 29-09-14 races at Tamworth is under hard driving from the 500m, gets run down in a 32.4 last ¼ (Mile rate 2:01.1 – 30.1, 30.1, 29.9, 32.4). Change trainer races at Newcastle Friday 03-10-14 (4 days later so the new trainer has only had 3 days to change anything and that assumes no recovery day) Race 5, runs 1:55.5 untouched (28.8, 29.9, 28.4, 28.3). I know it’s a different track (but the horses' earlier race at Newcastle (09/01/14) was driven out to run 2nd in 1:58.3), and don’t tell me it’s the ufo sulky or brand of feed and the previous trainer is not “a mug” trainer.

[Greg Hando]

The cynic in me has to ask because the stewards’ results notes say that they didn’t: Newcastle Race 5, I would have a "Query Improved Performance" on #6 Our Orville NZ. On Monday 29-09-14 races at Tamworth is under hard driving from the 500m, gets run down in a 32.4 last ¼ (Mile rate 2:01.1 – 30.1, 30.1, 29.9, 32.4). Change trainer races at Newcastle Friday 03-10-14 (4 days later so the new trainer has only had 3 days to change anything and that assumes no recovery day) Race 5, runs 1:55.5 untouched (28.8, 29.9, 28.4, 28.3). I know it’s a different track (but the horses' earlier race at Newcastle (09/01/14) was driven out to run 2nd in 1:58.3), and don’t tell me it’s the ufo sulky or brand of feed and the previous trainer is not “a mug” trainer.

Might like a girl driver on perhap's !!!!!!

[allanjg]

3 months,yes,3 weeks also maybe yes, but 3 days hmmmm..

[teecee]

Off topic posts moved to Off Topic Threads...(What was that song).

[NormanS]

The cynic in me has to ask because the stewards’ results notes say that they didn’t: Newcastle Race 5, I would have a "Query Improved Performance" on #6 Our Orville NZ. On Monday 29-09-14 races at Tamworth is under hard driving from the 500m, gets run down in a 32.4 last ¼ (Mile rate 2:01.1 – 30.1, 30.1, 29.9, 32.4). Change trainer races at Newcastle Friday 03-10-14 (4 days later so the new trainer has only had 3 days to change anything and that assumes no recovery day) Race 5, runs 1:55.5 untouched (28.8, 29.9, 28.4, 28.3). I know it’s a different track (but the horses' earlier race at Newcastle (09/01/14) was driven out to run 2nd in 1:58.3), and don’t tell me it’s the ufo sulky or brand of feed and the previous trainer is not “a mug” trainer.
The race results "stewards comments" now has QIP where it didn't previously... still waiting for the full report.

[trish]

The horse is in again tonight at Newcastle



http://iform.hrnsw.com.au/Content/Images/SaddleCloth11.jpg
OUR ORVILLE NZ

Form: 8 4 4 2 1


http://iform.hrnsw.com.au/Content/Images/EarlySpeed_VF.jpg LD http://iform.hrnsw.com.au/Content/Images/Help.jpg Leader
$1.20 Joined the Tritton stable last week and went like a jet in winning here on Friday. If he repeats that effort he will win again.

[Race For Fun]

The horse is in again tonight at Newcastle



http://iform.hrnsw.com.au/Content/Images/SaddleCloth11.jpg
OUR ORVILLE NZ

Form: 8 4 4 2 1


http://iform.hrnsw.com.au/Content/Images/EarlySpeed_VF.jpg LD http://iform.hrnsw.com.au/Content/Images/Help.jpg Leader
$1.20 Joined the Tritton stable last week and went like a jet in winning here on Friday. If he repeats that effort he will win again.

And what do the stewards do if it misfires tonight?

Hope for the games sake it fires the same as last week..

[Messenger]

The race results "stewards comments" now has QIP where it didn't previously... still waiting for the full report.
and what possible excuse could there be for 5 days passing and still no stewards report = SLACK

[aussiebreno]

and what possible excuse could there be for 5 days passing and still no stewards report = SLACK
Not too defend stewards, just bring a bit of balance back into it, but two of those days were weekends plus the public holiday on Monday.

[Messenger]

Not too defend stewards, just bring a bit of balance back into it, but two of those days were weekends plus the public holiday on Monday.
No balance required Breno - the reports for 4 NSW meetings held since then have been posted

[brent_L]

I'd imagine race 5 at Newcastle tonight would fit into the miraculous training feats?? I did the form earlier today and was staggered to see B365 opened the 11 @ $1.60. His recent form & trials were pretty (no, very) average. Anyhow, he just death seated, went 28.6 second qtr, 29- down the back and then pulled away from the rest. I bow to the better judgment of those @ B365.

[trish]

And what do the stewards do if it misfires tonight?

Hope for the games sake it fires the same as last week..


It didn't misfire.

[Sofoulis]

I have no interest in the horse (Our Orville) but did watch the replay of today's race and noted it hummed the gate and tried to lead... stuck in the breeze for the remainder of the race as #5 (horse: Norman Charles) wanted to hold the lead...

Went past #5 down the backstraight and ended up winning in a smart time once again.

Just for the record, the previous trainer (Dean Chapple) has said on FB that on Monday the horse was running "30 quarters all day" for him at Tamworth and in his reckoning, that approximates 29s quarters at Newcastle... adding that up... 1.56 mile rate... it then goes to the Tritton's stable, gets a few minor gear changes and a driver we all know adds a few lengths to them in front...... and backs it up the week later with a similar mile rate.......

Just for the record too: the #5 horse was also in Our Orville's race last week and was beaten 40 odd metres (it was admitedly 3 wide for a duration). Today it went forward and held out a $1.30 favourite, the very same horse that beat it last week and went hard the whole race...........

Maybe the tactics on that horse needs questioning because in my view it was not given every chance this week by holding out the $1.3 favourite........ (it finished last today beaten 35m... I guess the argument would be that it improved because it was 5 metres closer to the winner!?)

[Danno]

I guess if you looked at the situation wholistically, mathmatically, scientifically and most importantly objectively you might still have some questions, but then again you might not! I started this thread because I have issues with concessions being used accumulatively and I also thought it was an astounding form improvement considering the horse had changed stables ( and presumably his/her Physical environment) only a handful of days before...was my question completely random?, no of course is wasn't, because the stable that trained the horse on the night in question has a well established record for improving horses quite significantly, quite often in a short space of time and has ( like it or not) many people scratching their heads.

can't agree with your diagnosis Adam, I think as stated earlier in my post, one needs to look more wholistically, rather than just a couple of recent runs/tactics.

cheers,
Dan

[Race For Fun]

I have no interest in the horse (Our Orville) but did watch the replay of today's race and noted it hummed the gate and tried to lead... stuck in the breeze for the remainder of the race as #5 (horse: Norman Charles) wanted to hold the lead...

Went past #5 down the backstraight and ended up winning in a smart time once again.

Just for the record, the previous trainer (Dean Chapple) has said on FB that on Monday the horse was running "30 quarters all day" for him at Tamworth and in his reckoning, that approximates 29s quarters at Newcastle... adding that up... 1.56 mile rate... it then goes to the Tritton's stable, gets a few minor gear changes and a driver we all know adds a few lengths to them in front...... and backs it up the week later with a similar mile rate.......

Just for the record too: the #5 horse was also in Our Orville's race last week and was beaten 40 odd metres (it was admitedly 3 wide for a duration). Today it went forward and held out a $1.30 favourite, the very same horse that beat it last week and went hard the whole race...........

Maybe the tactics on that horse needs questioning because in my view it was not given every chance this week by holding out the $1.3 favourite........ (it finished last today beaten 35m... I guess the argument would be that it improved because it was 5 metres closer to the winner!?)

Many have done their money saying "take off a second for this track and a second for being one off the fence". Fully agree driver of the 5 should be asked to explain the drive but if the drivers reason for holding the lead goes along the line of "although he had run a fast first quarter and the horse can be difficult to drive it was not in the best interests of the horse to pull back".........

As long as all "up side down drives are treated the same.

Horse might get stood down.

[The Form Student]

Just for the record, the previous trainer (Dean Chapple) has said on FB that on Monday the horse was running "30 quarters all day" for him at Tamworth and in his reckoning, that approximates 29s quarters at Newcastle... adding that up... 1.56 mile rate... it then goes to the Tritton's stable, gets a few minor gear changes and a driver we all know adds a few lengths to them in front...... and backs it up the week later with a similar mile rate.......

Adam, I have read some of your comments in the past, and believe they have been an accurate portrayal of discussions on these posts...........BUT, I cannot have that this horse has not improved in the short period of time with it's new trainer/driver combo.......In it's last 12 or so runs in the past 18 months at Newcastle it is lucky to have broken 2 minutes!!! The horse was not hopeless with the previous trainer, but often had some bad luck in races with getting a check and gear problems etc, but in general, it had not performed to the 1:55-57 mile rate during an actual race. It has improved significantly, and is racing stronger to the line than previously! This has been just one of many improved horses, and I salute the trainer for his ability to do this!
I think there will be a traffic jam outside his property tomorrow morning with horses being delivered from everywhere!
I put Shane in the "Chris Waller" category of trainers, it is great to see this happening, I hope people get right behind him!
I watched his interview on Trots TV with Dale Walker..... a great interview, and Shane was so honest I could not believe it.....he is obviously intelligent, but a good person to go with it!

[aussiebreno]

I have no interest in the horse (Our Orville) but did watch the replay of today's race and noted it hummed the gate and tried to lead... stuck in the breeze for the remainder of the race as #5 (horse: Norman Charles) wanted to hold the lead...

Went past #5 down the backstraight and ended up winning in a smart time once again.

Just for the record, the previous trainer (Dean Chapple) has said on FB that on Monday the horse was running "30 quarters all day" for him at Tamworth and in his reckoning, that approximates 29s quarters at Newcastle... adding that up... 1.56 mile rate... it then goes to the Tritton's stable, gets a few minor gear changes and a driver we all know adds a few lengths to them in front...... and backs it up the week later with a similar mile rate.......

Just for the record too: the #5 horse was also in Our Orville's race last week and was beaten 40 odd metres (it was admitedly 3 wide for a duration). Today it went forward and held out a $1.30 favourite, the very same horse that beat it last week and went hard the whole race...........

Maybe the tactics on that horse needs questioning because in my view it was not given every chance this week by holding out the $1.3 favourite........ (it finished last today beaten 35m... I guess the argument would be that it improved because it was 5 metres closer to the winner!?)
One minor problem, he hadn't been running 30 quarters all day. 32.4 last quarter Sept 29 and plenty more examples where that came from.

[Mighty Atom]

Just for the record, the previous trainer (Dean Chapple) has said on FB that on Monday the horse was running "30 quarters all day" for him at Tamworth and in his reckoning, that approximates 29s quarters at Newcastle... adding that up... 1.56 mile rate... it then goes to the Tritton's stable, gets a few minor gear changes and a driver we all know adds a few lengths to them in front...... and backs it up the week later with a similar mile rate.......

Adam, I have read some of your comments in the past, and believe they have been an accurate portrayal of discussions on these posts...........BUT, I cannot have that this horse has not improved in the short period of time with it's new trainer/driver combo.......In it's last 12 or so runs in the past 18 months at Newcastle it is lucky to have broken 2 minutes!!! The horse was not hopeless with the previous trainer, but often had some bad luck in races with getting a check and gear problems etc, but in general, it had not performed to the 1:55-57 mile rate during an actual race. It has improved significantly, and is racing stronger to the line than previously! This has been just one of many improved horses, and I salute the trainer for his ability to do this!
I think there will be a traffic jam outside his property tomorrow morning with horses being delivered from everywhere!
I put Shane in the "Chris Waller" category of trainers, it is great to see this happening, I hope people get right behind him!
I watched his interview on Trots TV with Dale Walker..... a great interview, and Shane was so honest I could not believe it.....he is obviously intelligent, but a good person to go with it!

I have had enough of these so called super trainers improving horses out of sight. They are doing something that other trainers aren't, but so far it hasn't been revealed. There are a couple of glaring examples floating around Australia at the moment. Over the decades I've come across these trainers who were unbeatable and then inexplicably disappear.

[allanjg]

if he`s clean he will succeed,if he`s not they will get him....time will tell rod.

[Sofoulis]

Equally Rod I have had enough of the people who consistently imply that my trainer is doing something untoward.

It is not as though his success is overnight, he has been winning the training premiership at Newcastle for a number of years. Gradually he has honed his training style to better suit Menangle racing and been supported by a great team of drivers and a team of owners who have increasingly invested in him by giving him better and better horses, which of course leads to others doing the same thing...

A long way to go until he reaches the likes of McCarthy / Hall, but he has a very supportive team backing him that hopes he can reach those heights (or better) and be in it for the long-hall without 'disappearing'....... because those trainers didn't.......

[DRUIDRACING]

Unfortunately the success comes with the stigma implying that the said trainer is doing something untoward and thats the way many perceive that. Granted this success does attract the better quality horses and we all want to make a buck (thats why people go with the winning trainers) and have fun along the way. However having seen trainers of sort come and go in the central west / south west and improve horses in the same way and where are they now ? disqualified yes. Having purchased one of these "improved" horses and we find our training methods dont produce the same performance in the same way thus questioning the actual performance of the horse previously. Having a data base of over 4000 horses, many of these improved horses rarely display the dynamic form as they did for the previous trainers and are not seen again after an average, I would say 6-8 starts for the new owners/trainers............This is why people are walking away from the industry. Adam I am sorry if people imply that but in recent years it has been proven correct.

[Boydy]

Sofoulis, unlike yourself I am actually an owner of the horse in question. To start with I take great exception in that this horse improved by 4 seconds as it is actually totally incorrect. The horse is a hard pulling horse that is better suited to mile racing and in his last 14 starts before going to Shane Tritton had 3 starts over the mile, with one retirement (Where the driver Nathan Carroll told the trainer he was bolting in a 59 first half before the runner behind him ruptured his tyre and got rapt around his wheel) one second (granted in slow time but with a 33 second quarter) and a 1:58 second by 2 metres around Tamworth. Considering the track record around Tamworth for a mile is 1:57.3, hardly a slack run. Everyone raving about the 32 last quarter the first mile was the equivalent to 1:59 do the maths yourself.

Add to this to the fact there were a few gear changes and a few differences in the warm up etc. I really do not think it was a big improvement. Not to mention there is no doubt that a lot of horses do respond to change. I once owned a share in a horse called Tuscan Abbe. She ended up being infamous for different reasons as she was a little each way. We bought her on a Friday and she was entered for a race on Monday and despite she started in an almost identical race the week before and started 50-1, a change of gear did all the difference and she won the first start for us. Funny thing was she went off the boil was sold for a song and did exactly the same thing.

The thing that is unique about Shane Tritton is the way the horses are driven. The horses are driven at times with out fear and I feel that even with Jaime Lee King are driven more like they are driven in America. Is it any wonder with the Australian reliance on American sires the maybe the horse respond to this. Maybe the problem is the tactics of most of the drivers to sit up and nothing more.

As for any horses lining up outside Shane Trittons door, I can tell you that I still remain loyal to Dean Chapple and if the opportunity presents we may send a horse there but it will be a joint decision.

The only obstacle to me buying any additional horses would be ridiculous situation of racing in NSW. To start with the export fee for horses is a disgrace. Unlike New Zealand were a large portion of the population live a semi rural life, this does not happen in Australia. I would love to have a couple of broodmares in the backyard but as per the sale of Harold Park is not likely to happen in inner west Sydney (Leichhardt). I grew up near Granville showground and there are no harness racing stables in this area, although the Caffyns were located in the street I grew up in. If HRA wants to encourage young people into the sport instant gratification is the best way and importing horses from New Zealand is the most effective way. Hong Kong racing is probably the premier thoroughbred market in the world and how many studs and breeders do they have? Putting on a $2200 fee for importing a horse is absolutely ridiculous.

This situation is bad but the current grading system in NSW is by far the greatest blight on the sport in the last 20 years and I am including all the corruption and positive swabs. To think that someone could breed a horse of moderate ability and spend $20-$25k plus (Don't forget your $500 rebate) and then only have the opportunity to win a C0 worth $4000 is a joke. Under the old system you could win a R0 and C0 and collect your share of $8000 and still have a chance to sell your horse to another state for a return, but now it seems HRNSW want horses to rise in class so they are difficult to sell and basically reward mediocrity. It is a joke. It may not make a difference to people to racing at Menangle but it sure does to people racing outside of this area.

To finish I am really sick of people bagging Shane especially people on social media that have been or are currently disqualified. I see Orville has been swabbed twice and pre blood tested once in his first 2 starts and I eagerly await another negative swab.

[Sofoulis]

Unfortunately the success comes with the stigma implying that the said trainer is doing something untoward and thats the way many perceive that. Granted this success does attract the better quality horses and we all want to make a buck (thats why people go with the winning trainers) and have fun along the way. However having seen trainers of sort come and go in the central west / south west and improve horses in the same way and where are they now ? disqualified yes. Having purchased one of these "improved" horses and we find our training methods dont produce the same performance in the same way thus questioning the actual performance of the horse previously. Having a data base of over 4000 horses, many of these improved horses rarely display the dynamic form as they did for the previous trainers and are not seen again after an average, I would say 6-8 starts for the new owners/trainers............This is why people are walking away from the industry. Adam I am sorry if people imply that but in recent years it has been proven correct.

I also bought the same tennis racquet Andy Roddick uses... but my serve can't top 150km/h let alone the 220km/h he achieved........ there are 400,000 other people like me that bought his racquet (I don't have the database to back up that statement) and none of them can reach Roddick's service speed....... must be that he is doing something untoward... :P~

I also bought a nice horse off a trainer from Victoria that I gave to Shane, the horse never managed to hit the track for me (despite having 50+ starts with its previous trainer) and we retired it... old trainer must have been doing something untoward.

We keep talking about the need to positively push our sport and all I see being raised is questions over someone who is actually having success... We should be celebrating the fact that a trainer turned to another trainer to help iron out a few issues and together they turned it around...

[The Form Student]

Adam, Mr Sofoulis was not advocating the horse had improved by 4 seconds since being transferred, he was quoting Dean Chapple on Facebook saying that the horse could run 4 Quarters in 30 on Tamworth, and Dean stated that this probably equates to 1:56 on Newcastle. Dean was saying therefore there had not been much of an improvement since changing stables.....and Mr Sofoulis was plainly quoting him.
He did run 1:55.5 at his first start for Shane.......Did you not think this time was an improvement?

[DRUIDRACING]

Adam. Thank you for your opinion. Yes we should be promoting winners success in this great industry but some of the people that were promoted were questionable. I find the owners are not promoted as much as they should be, With your success and horses you have you should be promoted alongside your trainer. TV and radio coverage rarely promotes ownership, its all down to trainers. and without owners the industry isnt an industry. I would like to know how many main stream successful trainers actually own shares in horses. Im glad you tried to improve your tennis with that racket................I could coach you sometime if you like ?

[DRUIDRACING]

After all of that all I was doing was expressing an opinion why people are leaving the industry and finished with tennis rackets ..................all good fun

[Sofoulis]

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2012/01/19/article-2088864-0F83097D00000578-932_634x476.jpg

Is it coincidental that my surname is similar to Baghdatis? :P

[DRUIDRACING]

Hope you are not a cranky fellow Adam I dont coach cranky ones !! Been there done that! cant afford rackets and horses too. Hence havent broke one for some time.....but i have broke 3 horses in the last 4 years, long wait for a runner hoping santa will bring me a winner at christmas time.

[The Form Student]

Steve, I take your point.....a lot of vastly improved horses have seen their trainers caught and disqualified.......so the natural thought is here we go again......Shane has not put a foot wrong and we should not "tar everybody with the same brush", as the past is not a total reflection of the future! If we were in the same position, we would want the accolades for our results! But should this not be the case somewhere in the future........all cheaters, whoever they are, should be dealt with by long term bans, including disqualification for life, especially repeat offenders!
One should look at what is happening in SA at the moment........Barbara Scott (Chair of Stewards) has been going through the place "like a dose of Epsom Salts", and so has QR, cleaning things up!......all the better for the future of Harness Racing!

[Mitch]

The only obstacle to me buying any additional horses would be ridiculous situation of racing in NSW. To start with the export fee for horses is a disgrace. Unlike New Zealand were a large portion of the population live a semi rural life, this does not happen in Australia. I would love to have a couple of broodmares in the backyard but as per the sale of Harold Park is not likely to happen in inner west Sydney (Leichhardt). I grew up near Granville showground and there are no harness racing stables in this area, although the Caffyns were located in the street I grew up in. If HRA wants to encourage young people into the sport instant gratification is the best way and importing horses from New Zealand is the most effective way. Hong Kong racing is probably the premier thoroughbred market in the world and how many studs and breeders do they have? Putting on a $2200 fee for importing a horse is absolutely ridiculous.

This situation is bad but the current grading system in NSW is by far the greatest blight on the sport in the last 20 years and I am including all the corruption and positive swabs. To think that someone could breed a horse of moderate ability and spend $20-$25k plus (Don't forget your $500 rebate) and then only have the opportunity to win a C0 worth $4000 is a joke. Under the old system you could win a R0 and C0 and collect your share of $8000 and still have a chance to sell your horse to another state for a return, but now it seems HRNSW want horses to rise in class so they are difficult to sell and basically reward mediocrity. It is a joke. It may not make a difference to people to racing at Menangle but it sure does to people racing outside of this area.



Hi Adam, please don’t take this as me starting an argument as that is not my intent, I simply don’t agree with your statement and I want to provide an alternate perspective.

Sure it may be harder for you to place horses and on sell them for a profit under the new system. If this is your primary purpose for participating in the industry then I understand your frustration. At the same time I would suggest you fit into a minority of people whose primary interest is to buy horses, win 1 or 2 races and then on sell them. I would think (happy to be corrected) that the majority of owners who participate buy horses with the intent of racing them for as long as they are competitive.

The other majority critical to our sport are punters and having a handicapping system that trainers can too easily manipulate which in turn creates predictable racing outcomes is killing our sport. Odds on favourites stifle betting in almost all cases and the simple fact that cannot be ignored is we need more money wagered on harness racing if we want prize money to increase. Without this we will all be racing for ribbons at the show.

I want to make the point that any change that is made to prosper the industry will ultimately have positive and negative ramifications. These ramifications will vary in impact for all participants but ultimately if the changes being made benefit the industry as a whole first and foremost, then they should implemented with purpose by HRNSW.

Everyone (including me) has to get over the ‘what’s in it for me’ mentality and instead work with the changes and adapt how they/we/I do things. Adam, you can still buy and sell horses that are lightly raced you just need to find a new way to do that under the current handicapping system.

The sale of Harold Park created similar hysteria with some still criticising the decision. But the fact is Harold Park was a dead duck long before it was sold. I moved to NSW in 2002 and started going to Harold Park, apart from a couple of feature nights and the initial introduction of the ‘10 for 30’ promotion it was a ghost town most Friday nights. Harness racing was in serious decline long before the sale of HP and MV. Menangle and Melton are the result of the decline not the reason for it. This is a great example of the industry being reluctant to change and to an extent I feel the same is happening with the handicapping change.

Harness Racing has declined for 2 primary reasons in my opinion:
1. Integrity (lack there of)
2. Product Development (lack there of)
I think the new handicapping system has positive impacts on both of the above particularly the latter.

When I first heard about the new handicapping system my immediate reaction was to focus on the things I didn’t like such as not being able to place my horses as I liked, that if my horse wins a couple in a row he/she may face a steeper class rise (highly unlikely with horses I own by the way). That if my horse is struggling to a win a C0 that it might end up racing for $4000 (most likely for me). But having taken the time to learn and understand the system better I am fully supportive as I think the collective benefits to the industry far outweigh my personal preferences.

HRNSW, in my opinion, understand better than any other state jurisdiction the challenges and headwinds our industry faces and to their credit they are acting to make changes in the best interests of the industry as a whole. I am not saying everything they do is right because it isn’t but I do respect their willingness to try new things to help the sport prosper.

I personally feel the new handicapping system brings with it much more upside than it does downside. Yes there are some opportunities to improve the system and hopefully they will be addressed in due course. However we have to give the system time to be applied and for a true picture of the impacts to be realised.

The best thing any owner can do for the industry in NSW at the moment, and for themselves, is race their horses. This will provide HRNSW with the largest possible sample size to extract the best insight and learning from the application of the new system. This will allow them to identify the critical areas to be changed and adapted further to make it a fairer system for all whilst still benefiting the industry as a whole.

There is an element of equalisation to the new system and I can understand how this would be seen as unfair , particularly to those who are currently enjoying more success than the average. It will no doubt make it harder for the leading stables, however if you look at other sports such as the AFL, NFL, NBA, NRL etc. they all have implemented equalisation measures such as drafts, salary caps, free agency, priority picks etc. These initiatives have been fundamental in driving sustainability and growth of their product.

Equalisation in harness racing, if applied correctly, will drive the following outcomes:
• More competitive racing which drives bigger wagering pools – tick
• More horses earning more prize money – tick
• A larger spread of trainers winning races – tick
• Less domination of a smaller group of trainers – tick
• Owners who have more horses who pay their way – tick
All of the above are fundamental to harness racing collectively becoming a more sustainable product.

Ultimately the market, both punters and participants, will validate if the new system is better or worse and it will be up to HRNSW to respond based on this. I just hope everyone gives it a fair go so the best long term outcome can be determined.

For what its worth I agree that NZ import fee is wrong. I am also vehemently opposed to the introduction of driver colours as I feel that it will have no material benefit to the sport and I fail to understand how it will increase wagering revenue. However if the people who run this sport (most of whom are much smarter, more experienced and knowledgeable than me) have research to suggest it’s the right thing to do then I encourage them to proceed proceed with purpose.

I hope I have objectively explained my perspective of this topic.

Regards,

Mitch.

[Race For Fun]

The type of handicaping system that is in at the moment is not unlike a system that was introduced when Barry Rose was chairman, not exactly but some parts are similar. I don't like the way you don't know if you will be racing for $4000, 5000, 6000 or $7000 and what class is each horse next start? A horse that wins a $4000 co race at Tamworth should not have to take the same penalty as the horse that won the $7000 co at the same meeting. Trainers knew bigger money, harder opposition head South, less money but easier opposition head north. That's the control trainers have lost. Not sure about doing what the authority wants became that's what they want. I think the trainer has fair idea of what is what. Just keep in mind that this is not a new idea.

[djgood]

Im happy at the moment with new system tuesday is an example that benefits me i nominated my T2 mare for both trots if the T0-T1 become a T1 front she would get in being a mare. They had enough noms for the T2 or better so being the only mare they put a T2 mares clause and im in the easier race although off 20metres , and now she is in with a good chance while the T2 or better she would have been a midfield finisher

[Race For Fun]

http://www.harnessmediacentre.com.au/Uploads/files/Racing%20Notices/140820%20Divided%20Stakes%20Race%20Field%20Selecti on%20Process.pdf

Good luck in the race.

My understanding of the new handicaping system is that if the race has a co or to front then the mares and or junior driver concession claim would not apply. This is good luck for David and I don't blame him for nominating but as it is trying to work out what you are nominating for is a maze.

[aussiebreno]

Yes I bet Joe Sultana is over the moon :rolleyes:

[djgood]

They changed the conditions to get bigger field im still off same handicap so i havent gotten the lift if it became a T1 front then i would have got lift

[Race For Fun]

They changed the conditions to get bigger field im still off same handicap so i havent gotten the lift if it became a T1 front then i would have got lift

Yes I know that and the change is good luck for you but my point is that the authority has set rules as to how the new handicaping system is to be implemented. Rules for trainers to work by when planing which race they want to nominate a horse for. The rules for the front of a race are also for the authority to follow. Tweaking a race is different to changing a rule. The whole thing with this handicaping system is that changes are made at the expense of the horse that has not won a race. Trainers with maiden horses do get sick of making up the numbers for horses with multiple wins add to races.

Good luck to you on Tuesday. My comment is in regards to the quick sand handicaping system.

[djgood]

Yeah but this is not new when miss in Majorca was a maiden the conditions for the races changed regularly to get full fields ,it's my turn to take advantage,and thats what Shane Tritton does well he uses the handicapping system very good and to his and his owners advantage

[djgood]

Yes I bet Joe Sultana is over the moon :rolleyes:
Joe will be ok top bloke we always chat at the trots

[Mighty Atom]

Yeah but this is not new when miss in Majorca was a maiden the conditions for the races changed regularly to get full fields ,it's my turn to take advantage,and thats what Shane Tritton does well he uses the handicapping system very good and to his and his owners advantage

Hi David,
Don't think the handicapping system applied with Mark Dennis.......unbelievable, even Gareth Hall was perplexed.

[Boydy]

Firstly just to clarify as there has been some misunderstanding with my comments on 4 second improvement on social media. I was not suggesting that Sofoulis suggested this and I was referring to comments made by others that were made on FB that I was involved in a conversation. I think the two Adams are both on the same wavelength.
Mitch I understand that everybody has a different opinion on the handicapping system but there are some facts that cannot be denied. Firstly, if you have a horse of limited ability then your earning potential is reduced by the new system. Under the old system, if you placed your horse right you could win a couple of R races and then a couple of C races and by the time you are a C2 you would have won races worth $16k. Under the new system that is $8-$9k. It does not make a lot of sense to me to reduce a level of racing and also reduce the prizemoney for the next class up. If a C0 was worth $8k minimum well we would probably be having a different argument.
Also your thoughts that owners are primarily in the game to make money in my opinion is just plain wrong. I have probably owned around 15 horses in the last 10 years and I do not think 1 has ever returned what I paid, plus covered the training fees. It would be nice but I am not holding my breath. However to think that owners/trainers do not move horses on to other areas when they are uncompetitive in their current location is just plain wrong and if you have a look at the fields in Queensland on a daily basis you will see this. The thing is that most of the time when you move a horse on it allows you replace it with another its the way it has always worked.
The truth is HRNSW has always had the ability to grade horses in a manner to make them competitive. The R0 and better races accepted noms and the handicappers framed their own races, making them less than $300 last 4 starts etc. From what I can see I think the handicappers are doing very much the same that they always did but my major issue is the demise of Restricted races and no increase or even a decrease in the Country races.
On another note just so you can see where NSW racing is headed Friday meetings at Albion Park have C races worth $6000 down to C0s and out of that you do not pay a drivers fee so in reality its worth $6660 in comparison to NSW.
Rod, on Mark Dennis. Gareth went on about claimed last start. No wonder he was perplexed he was just plain wrong. The horse only got beat 10 metres in the SA Cup in January and was competitive and beat Come on Frank a number of times. If Come on Frank would have done this after walking the first 1500 metres would have been no surprise.

[NormanS]

Firstly just to clarify as there has been some misunderstanding with my comments on 4 second improvement on social media. I was not suggesting that Sofoulis suggested this and I was referring to comments made by others that were made on FB that I was involved in a conversation. I think the two Adams are both on the same wavelength.
To both Sofoulis and Boydy – . To be fair to Shane, he is probably one of the most scrutinised trainers in NSW simply because of the volume of horses that he puts onto the race track. I’ve known Shane for years and KNOW that he is a very smart man and he has developed a training style that works for the horses that he presents to the races. It is reasonable to assume that there are many horses that don’t respond to his training style and these horses are either given time in the paddock or moved on. I also understand that the owners that support him have spent significant money purchasing better and better horses as his training skills have born better and better results.
The reason for my original post was having done the form before the race where many of the horses names were familiar to me, I expected the Our Orville NZ to be thereabouts in a tight finish (maybe I was influenced by the race conditions). I did the form again after the race and then watched the race replays because on face value the form didn’t appear to stack up. Add the short turn around (not much time to train and it is Shanes training methods and the driving methods employed that have been most influential) and hence perception of a significant improvement (not just the time run but the way it was run) that had me questioning why the original stewards notes (on the results page) didn’t query the improvement. The question has now been asked and answered.

Also your thoughts that owners are primarily in the game to make money in my opinion is just plain wrong Have to agree here. Making money would be great but just wanting to cover ongoing costs.
With respect to the current handicapping system - after listening to the interview on trots tv I understand why they're "trying" this. I'm just not sure that I agree with it. I would still like my trainer to have the ability to place my horse where he/she thinks it has the best chance of winning.
As the system evolves the better trainers will work this out. However if HRNSW are able to show that this method of field selection does create more competitive, less predictable racing with fewer odds-on favourites AND increases betting turnover then I think we have to let them go with it. Once again however the system will need to evolve to suit all racing, not just Menangle.
On the "sliding scale for prize money" v "R" and "C" racing, I'll have to ponder this one a little longer (especially if fields are going to be framed around times run and $'s last X starts).

[Triple V]

Our National & State Industry desk pilots grow some Cajones & throw the entire R0-C0-M0 routine to the shithouse instead of retaining that rubbish framework, grafting onto it a series of taken completely out of context successful aspects of Nth American Harness Racing and passing off the resultant & inevitably dysfunctional Bastard child as 'Handicapping Reform'.
Instead we need to move to a FULL CONDITIONED RACING SYSTEM with everything that it entails.
If we do not then Southern Harness Racing is, IMO, doomed to wander aimlessly, mindlessly repeating the same old Handicap horses on their historical form bullshit mistakes, and all the while inexplicably expecting a different outcome.

[Mitch]

Firstly just to clarify as there has been some misunderstanding with my comments on 4 second improvement on social media. I was not suggesting that Sofoulis suggested this and I was referring to comments made by others that were made on FB that I was involved in a conversation. I think the two Adams are both on the same wavelength.
Mitch I understand that everybody has a different opinion on the handicapping system but there are some facts that cannot be denied. Firstly, if you have a horse of limited ability then your earning potential is reduced by the new system. Under the old system, if you placed your horse right you could win a couple of R races and then a couple of C races and by the time you are a C2 you would have won races worth $16k. Under the new system that is $8-$9k. It does not make a lot of sense to me to reduce a level of racing and also reduce the prizemoney for the next class up. If a C0 was worth $8k minimum well we would probably be having a different argument.
Also your thoughts that owners are primarily in the game to make money in my opinion is just plain wrong. I have probably owned around 15 horses in the last 10 years and I do not think 1 has ever returned what I paid, plus covered the training fees. It would be nice but I am not holding my breath. However to think that owners/trainers do not move horses on to other areas when they are uncompetitive in their current location is just plain wrong and if you have a look at the fields in Queensland on a daily basis you will see this. The thing is that most of the time when you move a horse on it allows you replace it with another its the way it has always worked.
The truth is HRNSW has always had the ability to grade horses in a manner to make them competitive. The R0 and better races accepted noms and the handicappers framed their own races, making them less than $300 last 4 starts etc. From what I can see I think the handicappers are doing very much the same that they always did but my major issue is the demise of Restricted races and no increase or even a decrease in the Country races.
On another note just so you can see where NSW racing is headed Friday meetings at Albion Park have C races worth $6000 down to C0s and out of that you do not pay a drivers fee so in reality its worth $6660 in comparison to NSW.
Rod, on Mark Dennis. Gareth went on about claimed last start. No wonder he was perplexed he was just plain wrong. The horse only got beat 10 metres in the SA Cup in January and was competitive and beat Come on Frank a number of times. If Come on Frank would have done this after walking the first 1500 metres would have been no surprise.

Hi Adam,

I think you have misread or misinterpreted my post.

Just to be clear;

I didn't at any stage say the new system was perfect. I was trying to make a point that people need to give it time rather than make outlandish comments, like you did, that the new handicapping system is a blight on the industry. As I said in my post there are things I don't like about it but I am happy to give it time and put aside my personal preferences.

I also never said owners were in the sport to make money, not sure where you got that from?? I did say that I think the majority aim to race their horse for as long as it competitive.

I agree that a lot of smart owners do move their horses on to other states or zones once they are no longer competitive.

Mitch.

[Triple V]

You must be kidding Triple V. Don't look up Yonkers or any other racetrack look up Empire City Casino.
I have it from good authority that on a recent meeting staged there was an even spread of fields (as in no odds on favourites) and turnover was down on that venue. Why? Because even thought the win pools were up, exotic betting was down.
Triple V, the day comes that the crowd watch the races on TV while they play the pokies I will give the sport away but maybe you think that is success, maybe you should breed a couple of plastic horses for Trackside.


VVV- Of course. It's infinitely better to Handicap our horses based on their historical form & ultimately force them out through the top by way of them reaching their mark and becoming economically unviable. Makes a lot of sense. Go straight to the top of the class.

[Messenger]

Hey Jamie (and Adam) let's keep it nice and debate it without getting too emotive

[The Form Student]

I don't know why they ever got rid of a maiden as a C28 class?

[Messenger]

:rolleyes:

[Messenger]

As per usual when Spring comes around I have been watching 7's coverage of the gallops.
It looks bloody fantastic
The only way you can make racing look that 'fantastic' is to have those sort of hours of coverage -
In order to tell the personality & horse stories, show each of the horses 'close up' in the mounting/parade yard, have fantastic camera work, detailed analysis etc etc
Even if we have to mortgage Melton and Menangle we have to get that sort of coverage at least for the MM, Inter, Breeders Crown, Hunter-Vic Cup
And advertise it to the hilt with some big names fronting it - to get converts

Maybe the Perth Million dollar Inters can be the start. We have to start now with finding the right big name personalities to front it (along with the most presentable of our real experts) - there must be some with some link that we can develop even a general interest in racing would be a start. Then we spend whatever it costs to have it uninterrupted on 7Two

[The Escape Club]

As per usual when Spring comes around I have been watching 7's coverage of the gallops.
It looks bloody fantastic
The only way you can make racing look that 'fantastic' is to have those sort of hours of coverage -
In order to tell the personality & horse stories, show each of the horses 'close up' in the mounting/parade yard, have fantastic camera work, detailed analysis etc etc
Even if we have to mortgage Melton and Menangle we have to get that sort of coverage at least for the MM, Inter, Breeders Crown, Hunter-Vic Cup
And advertise it to the hilt with some big names fronting it - to get converts

Maybe the Perth Million dollar Inters can be the start. We have to start now with finding the right big name personalities to front it (along with the most presentable of our real experts) - there must be some with some link that we can develop even a general interest in racing would be a start. Then we spend whatever it costs to have it uninterrupted on 7Two


I agree. Sky do a pretty good job but in the lead up to the big races they're still having to squeeze it in between races elsewhere.

[Messenger]

I agree. Sky do a pretty good job but in the lead up to the big races they're still having to squeeze it in between races elsewhere.
We have to improve the camera work too Rob. Even though 7 is just standard definition like Sky, it looks so much better - maybe it is the quality of the cameras

[Amlin]

Although some don't like him Bruce McAvaney is the human encyclopaedia on sport and I am sure still takes an interest in the trots. When I worked at HRW we posted him a copy each week so am sure he would still be across the sport and would be an ideal "anchor"


A guy like Terry McAulliffe has also "crossed over" to the general network coverage of sport by way of calling athletics on TV, as has Peter Donegan, and both are racing men at heart.


Dan Mielicki too of course worked for the 10 network as a sports reporter for several years so the point is there are plenty of talented professionals to choose from who have a walk up start of the nuts and bolts of our sport!

[barney]

Probably the main reason people are walking away from the sport was highlighted last night at Swan hill 7 short priced favs winning no value for the average punter and thats what it is about value.

[Messenger]

Although some don't like him Bruce McAvaney is the human encyclopaedia on sport and I am sure still takes an interest in the trots. When I worked at HRW we posted him a copy each week so am sure he would still be across the sport and would be an ideal "anchor"


A guy like Terry McAulliffe has also "crossed over" to the general network coverage of sport by way of calling athletics on TV, as has Peter Donegan, and both are racing men at heart.


Dan Mielicki too of course worked for the 10 network as a sports reporter for several years so the point is there are plenty of talented professionals to choose from who have a walk up start of the nuts and bolts of our sport!
I thought of Bruce too Kyle as he has a profile and you would only need one current popular sidekick along with our best to pull it off

[Messenger]

A bit of stretch there I reckon Brian

$3.90, $3.20, $1.70, $2.20, $2.00, $1.90, $1.20, $1.10, $1.20, $5.70

There are probably only 3 races there where the long odds on pops may have affected the pools and you will always have 1 race like that.

[barney]

7 winners there too short for me to back and i would say most average punters

[teecee]

http://www.hrnz.co.nz/news-and-events/latest-news/2621-international-star-turn-for-cup-day

[Messenger]

http://www.hrnz.co.nz/news-and-events/latest-news/2621-international-star-turn-for-cup-day
They are on my wavelength Tony. Add a celebrity compere and free to air coverage soley harness and we have a winner

Edit : One other small thing Tony - could they race it on grass :D , penny finally dropped on Caufield Cup coverage, that one of the reasons the gallops look so good is the grass track

[Messenger]

7 winners there too short for me to back and i would say most average punters
You're probably right Brian
Looking at the Trifecta's and they were only $193, 21, 11, 26, 296, 73, 57, 118, 66, 497

Just catching up with Menangle last night - some excellent divvies there Brian and Albion Park's were not too bad, maybe it is a Vic problem as they were pretty short at Melton on Friday too

[barney]

Unfortunately Kevin i dont touch Qld harness at all. Basically since the Gold coast closed down, and also the Dixon dominance.Menangle has improved as the dominance of the one stable not so marked now but Newcastle is going down the same path.

[aussiebreno]

Our Planet Princes two different horses at times. Won in exhilarating style at Newcastle today.

[Messenger]

I am guessing the QIP is why you have put it in this thread Brendan

[Messenger]

There should have been a QDT for the $1.50 fav in Race 3 at Ballarat tonight
Any time such a short fav surrenders the lead over a short trip at a track without a sprint lane it should happen so that even if it is acceptable - the public can read that in the stewards report (due diligence seen to be done)
When you watch the replay you will be satisfied there was nothing fishy going on but just reading the results/stewards summary it looks strange
(It is also probably pertinent that the fav should never have been those odds)

http://www.harness.org.au/meeting-results.cfm?mc=BA081114&ms=vic#BAC08111406