Sprint lane debate once and for all!!!!

[Messenger]

Did Barynya really win the Oaks last night or was it simply the horse that drew 8. I have little doubt that several of the field would have won that race if they had drawn 8.

The sprint lane is a massive penalty that a leader has to carry nowadays. They destroy trotting's heritage IMO for we need to create a new category of 'grey' type for horses that win black type races using the sprint lane - the huge advantage they give the runner in the sit is plain ridiculous.

I know it has not happened yet but we could see leaders slowing up at the bell to relinquish the lead so that they can finish in the sprint lane and hamper the horse on their back. Or will we see the American style of racing where they rotate the lead - like a bicycle race where the cyclists take it in turn to cut the breeze.

It is all for the punter supposedly (the distaste for runners not getting out) but who feels confident about backing leaders anymore. What of the skill of the driver ie the skill of keeping a danger horse locked up V the gift of a golden pass up the inside. I know classics were won off cushy runs in the past but choosing to hand up the lead carried a huge risk of not getting out - now it only carries a small risk of the new leader handing up too.

[aussiebreno]

I am a big big fan of Mindarie Priddy and my post history will confirm that. I was hoping Nike Franco would want the lead or even Shes a Runa or Quick Draft so that Miles would hand up the lead. That had the inherent risk he wouldn't be able to run them down, but I knew on the back of the heat run Barinya was a big shot at running her down.
But regardless of a sprint lane or not, there was enough room and time to peel out three wide around the turn and Barinya would have won anyway.
It could just about be argued Mindarie Priddy only won the heat because she led whilst Barinya came 3wide from a long way back, so should we ban leaders? Without Barinya in the race Mindarie Priddy wins by a gap, so at least the leader gets some competition. They get a 4m headstart over about 100 150m. If they cant hang on maybe they dont deserve to win.
P.S If there sprint lanes at Mildura maybe it give someone a chance at beating Cramp!

[Maorisidol]

So Kev,

how would you feel if YOU owned Barynya in the $150,000 Group 1 Oaks and you go to the line running second hard held with her nose nearly knocking David Miles helmet off?
Mate you would think about the "one that got away" for the rest of your life, the increased value of her as a broodmare the extra value then put on her foals and dollars into your pocket, and an awesome Trophy for the poolroom! Group 1! But sorry gotta take that dream away mate, no sprint lane!
As Brenno said if you give a horse with the "sit" 4m headstart at the top of the straight (not the "lane"! hate that Americansim people think is cool to use in Australia) and it beats you, and you can't outsprint it with that headstart, maybe you were beaten by a better horse who.....................got a chance!

[Messenger]

Guys

Pt .1 If there is no sprint lane do you want to put your horse in the sit posn (other than if you are driving for luck) so it is a posn that drivers on good things avoided in the past

Pt. 2 If there is no sprint lane a good driver on a leader can use his skill to keep the horse on his back locked up or at least contribute to it (death horse of course relevant). We are now talking about real skill not the amount that a monkey would need to sit on the leader and use the sprint lane

Pt. 3 You are missing my point - the horse on the leaders back is given a Golden ticket ie after enjoying a cheap run he/she is guaranteed a run in the straight often after doing nothing but getting the right barrier draw. In the old days the 1x1 was considered a great spot to lob but the advent of sending horses 3w early (I reckon the Mannings perfected it) negated this. So the only positions with a sure fire run in the str are the Leader (who has to earn the lead and is vulnerable to attack - answer your point about banning leaders Brenno?), the Death horse who has to work, the 3W horse who has to work even harder, the swooper who has to come wide and from a fair way back, and the Sit horse who only has to keep up with the leader while getting a nice drag along and is then asked to make up about 4m to win

I have been a cyclist Ash and the 'maybe you were beaten by a better horse' argument really discounts the value of the cover/sit behind position (why track sprint cycling events are run over more than one heat with the pair of riders taking it in turns to have to lead out) The only way to know who was the better horse is to run both the 2 scenarios which we know cannot happen (for a start we are not talking about match racing) Don't you think if I owned Mindarie I might being thinking for the rest of my life about how the sprint lane cost me THE DREAM. It is the fact that it is the only free loading position in the run that GUARANTEES you a shot at the dream that I object to. Sure horses will be unlucky more often when there is no sprint lane BUT the better horse and driver is what it is going to take to win most of the time and I am fine with that

Brenno do you really think that Barynya could have put on the brakes to come 3w around Nike and got up? A big ask

[aussiebreno]

Guys

Pt .1 If there is no sprint lane do you want to put your horse in the sit posn (other than if you are driving for luck) so it is a posn that drivers on good things avoided in the past

Pt. 2 If there is no sprint lane a good driver on a leader can use his skill to keep the horse on his back locked up or at least contribute to it (death horse of course relevant). We are now talking about real skill not the amount that a monkey would need to sit on the leader and use the sprint lane

Pt. 3 You are missing my point - the horse on the leaders back is given a Golden ticket ie after enjoying a cheap run he/she is guaranteed a run in the straight often after doing nothing but getting the right barrier draw. In the old days the 1x1 was considered a great spot to lob but the advent of sending horses 3w early (I reckon the Mannings perfected it) negated this. So the only positions with a sure fire run in the str are the Leader (who has to earn the lead and is vulnerable to attack - answer your point about banning leaders Brenno?), the Death horse who has to work, the 3W horse who has to work even harder, the swooper who has to come wide and from a fair way back, and the Sit horse who only has to keep up with the leader while getting a nice drag along and is then asked to make up about 4m to win

I have been a cyclist Ash and the 'maybe you were beaten by a better horse' argument really discounts the value of the cover/sit behind position (why track sprint cycling events are run over more than one heat with the pair of riders taking it in turns to have to lead out) The only way to know who was the better horse is to run both the 2 scenarios which we know cannot happen (for a start we are not talking about match racing) Don't you think if I owned Mindarie I might being thinking for the rest of my life about how the sprint lane cost me THE DREAM. It is the fact that it is the only free loading position in the run that GUARANTEES you a shot at the dream that I object to. Sure horses will be unlucky more often when there is no sprint lane BUT the better horse and driver is what it is going to take to win most of the time and I am fine with that

Brenno do you really think that Barynya could have put on the brakes to come 3w around Nike and got up? A big ask
The 1-1 is still the best spot in the running line. I reckon the standard of driving from the 1-1 is terrible. Horses are continually expected to come from 1 out 4 back (15-20m back) and heads the three wide line at the bell, why can't a horse be expected to come from the 1 out 1 back (5m back) at the bell. It might be a little bit different at bigger tracks, but around 800m saucers in the Riverina you just aren't going to get a run very often if you stay put in the 1-1. Every single race they come 3 wide at the bell, show some initiative and pull out in front of them. A big pet hate of mine.

From race to race races can be run differently that give advantage to the leader, the sprint laner, the swoopers etc. But the one constant about sprint lanes and the biggest reason they should stay and be implemented in more tracks is because it squares up the PBD system and actually gives an advantage.

Take this example:
No sprint lane. Worst horse in race draws 1. Not so bad horse draws 4. Worst horse either burns the gate, uses up limited ability they have, and then have absolutely nothing in the straight. Either that or they just let the 4 lead. The 4 leads and the 1 who already lacks ability never gets a shot.

But if we had a sprint lane, at least the 1 horse can hand up and be a chance still. This way the 4 also gets the lead, instead of death seating which in turn gives it an advantage over the good horse drawn 11.

Supposedly the biggest thing punters hate is short priced faves. If we can create another chance in the races in our handicapping system then I am for all it.

[Messenger]

All good points Brenno but the biggest thing I hate is: the best horse (and driver :D ) not winning so to a large extent I do not give a rats about punting and handicapping (I do however understand that punting is our lifeblood)

[teecee]

No sprint lane at menangle.
Was Supersonic Miss a moral beaten in the APG final and how much money went down the drain and how many real punters would be so dirty on Harness racing betting because of the no passing lane ??

[Messenger]

As I said teecee I want to see the best horse and driver win and in that race Mark Purdon let down the team - driving a hot shot he should have taken the opportunity to get off the fence in the first 100m when it was there, it was tightish but it was there. Of course there will be hard luck stories but I prefer the idea of less winners thanks to soft runs

[Lenem]

Sprint lane only ensures that the trailing horse will get a fair crack. It cannot nor is it intended to add lengths to a horse that would otherwise be incapable of winning. Anti sprint laners are usually talking through their kick and would much preferred to see the trailing horse go to the line under a throttlehold.
Instead of jumping up and down like a startled rabbit (if that's what they do!) I suggest you take note of how many sprint lane horses are actually incapable of taking advantage of the run when presented!

[Messenger]

Instead of jumping up and down like a startled rabbit (if that's what they do!) ????!!!!!!

Have you been drinking Lenny?

Why should the trailing horse be GUARANTEED a fair crack Lenny. If every horse is guaranteed a fair crack then I might go along with it - cannot imagine the gallops world bringing in a sprint lane or preventing jockeys from keeping horses in a pocket. Big tracks with long straights are probably best for giving nearly every runner a chance of a fair crack, as I have explained it sucks (to me) that the trailing horse who has generally had the softest run is guaranteed a run in the straight

It is just my opinion and I have started the thread to open up the debate - I will put you down as for sprint lanes

I agree that many horses are incapable of taking the presented run but in finals after heats like last night's Oaks, I think there would have been a few happy and capable of using that barrier draw

ps I can go a year without a bet even though I attend plenty of meetings - so I am not talking through my pocket

[teecee]

As I said teecee I want to see the best horse and driver win and in that race Mark Purdon let down the team - driving a hot shot he should have taken the opportunity to get off the fence in the first 100m when it was there, it was tightish but it was there. Of course there will be hard luck stories but I prefer the idea of less winners thanks to soft runs


Don't you think that trailing your supposedly toughest opposition and expecting it to take you further into the race was not reasonable and when that didn't happen there is no way out with no passing lane. What really should happen IMO is all tracks or none.

[teecee]

Instead of jumping up and down like a startled rabbit (if that's what they do!) ????!!!!!!

Have you been drinking Lenny?

Why should the trailing horse be GUARANTEED a fair crack Lenny. If every horse is guaranteed a fair crack then I might go along with it - cannot imagine the gallops world bringing in a sprint lane or preventing jockeys from keeping horses in a pocket. Big tracks with long straights are probably best for giving nearly every runner a chance of a fair crack, as I have explained it sucks (to me) that the trailing horse who has generally had the softest run is guaranteed a run in the straight

It is just my opinion and I have started the thread to open up the debate - I will put you down as for sprint lanes

I agree that many horses are incapable of taking the presented run but in finals after heats like last night's Oaks, I think there would have been a few happy and capable of using that barrier draw

ps I can go a year without a bet even though I attend plenty of meetings - so I am not talking through my pocket


The comparison of harness to gallops is not entirely fair. Gallopers do not need the size of gap that harness horses need to secure a run. There is the issue of the sulky behind.

[Danno]

I'm not a fan of the sprint lane, but nor am I a fan of watching disgruntled punters saying " thats the last time I bet on the trots", so as a trainer/driver I dislike the FACT as Kevin points out, that the horse that has had quite possibly the softest run gets a "cheap shot" at the leader from only a length away in the dying stages of the race ( a VERY relevant aspect), people often over look the alternatives, like give the sprint laner a shot with a lap to go, or alternatively, at the 400m mark or thereabouts. Driving tactics and race results would alter dramatically!!!!

I do get annoyed with knee jerk reactions to the "disgruntled punter" as well.....do we see the Gallops constantly changing their game? No we do not, and they have left us for dead in the last twenty years or so. I remember very well when the push from our commercial breeders years ago for all mobile racing and how it would be a salve for disgruntled punters, many years later there are just as many horses missing the start and just as many disgruntled punters!!!!

The sprint lane is just another knee jerk reaction. that is my opinion. People need to inderstand you can't please all the people all the time, and therein lies the problem with knee jerk "fixes".

Cheers,
Dan

[Lenem]

I could equally argue with no lesser degree of logic that it is unfair that the trailing horse be positively disadvantaged by lobbing behind the leader which is often the case on tracks with no sprint lane. I "grew up' at the Showgrounds where you knew you were gone if you ended up behind a Don Dove or a Graeme Lang. With the sprint lane we all know where we stand and if your horse has the ability to come on at the end of a race it will have the full opportunity to do so.
Cheers

[Greg Hando]

I hate them and we refer to it as the squib lane.

[Danno]

I could equally argue with no lesser degree of logic that it is unfair that the trailing horse be positively disadvantaged by lobbing behind the leader which is often the case on tracks with no sprint lane. I "grew up' at the Showgrounds where you knew you were gone if you ended up behind a Don Dove or a Graeme Lang. With the sprint lane we all know where we stand and if your horse has the ability to come on at the end of a race it will have the full opportunity to do so.
Cheers

Lenny I am loath to to respond in an equally simplistic way, but in order to adequately make my point to you the I believe I must. so I have simply highlighted the obvious.

[Lenem]

If simplistic means actually making a coherent argument then please be simplistic
Lenny I am loath to to respond in an equally simplistic way, but in order to adequately make my point to you the I believe I must. so I have simply highlighted the obvious.

[Messenger]

I could equally argue with no lesser degree of logic that it is unfair that the trailing horse be positively disadvantaged by lobbing behind the leader which is often the case on tracks with no sprint lane. I "grew up' at the Showgrounds where you knew you were gone if you ended up behind a Don Dove or a Graeme Lang. With the sprint lane we all know where we stand and if your horse has the ability to come on at the end of a race it will have the full opportunity to do so.
Cheers

I loved the Showgrounds' days Lenny. DD and GL were pretty good drivers don't you think whereas a trained monkey could win a race from the sit with a sprint lane. If you were driving a horse to win (rather than place) would you let yourself end up behind either of these 2 in the lead. The emboldened part is my problem Lenny - why should the horse with the softest run be GUARANTEED the opportunity to do so

[Messenger]

The comparison of harness to gallops is not entirely fair. Gallopers do not need the size of gap that harness horses need to secure a run. There is the issue of the sulky behind.
I hear you teecee but gallopers do still get held up if the jockey does not read the situation correctly and jockeys are praised when they stitch up their opposition by keeping them in a pocket

[Lenem]

I loved the Showgrounds' days Lenny. DD and GL were pretty good drivers don't you think whereas a trained monkey could win a race from the sit with a sprint lane. If you were driving a horse to win (rather than place) would you let yourself end up behind either of these 2 in the lead. The emboldened part is my problem Lenny - why should the horse with the softest run be GUARANTEED the opportunity to do so

one could argue that for the same reason swimmers and runners race in lanes i.e to minimize the effect of external factors and to determine who is actually the fastest!

[Messenger]

one could argue that runners only run in lanes for sprint distances and that swimmers need lanes to guide them and stop interference (accidental or otherwise). As far as comparisons to other sports goes you have no doubt read my post which included cycling and gives an indication of how big an advantage another sport considers 'having a sit'.
How about I just put you down as a FOR sprint lanes :D

[aussiebreno]

Are Nathan Jack and Bill Trembath trained monkeys? Refer Musical Delight APG win and Distant Memory Vicbred win. Two of the best drives Ive seen. If you reckon Mindarie Priddy and other leaders unlucky what about Quick Draft last night, Christen Me and Beautude Vic Cup. Some barriers and racing positions are just luckier than others, unless we just make straight line tracks 12 horses wide, but then I suppose some losers will whinge about the wind draught.

[aussiebreno]

I'm not a fan of the sprint lane, but nor am I a fan of watching disgruntled punters saying " thats the last time I bet on the trots", so as a trainer/driver I dislike the FACT as Kevin points out, that the horse that has had quite possibly the softest run gets a "cheap shot" at the leader from only a length away in the dying stages of the race ( a VERY relevant aspect), people often over look the alternatives, like give the sprint laner a shot with a lap to go, or alternatively, at the 400m mark or thereabouts. Driving tactics and race results would alter dramatically!!!!

I do get annoyed with knee jerk reactions to the "disgruntled punter" as well.....do we see the Gallops constantly changing their game? No we do not, and they have left us for dead in the last twenty years or so. I remember very well when the push from our commercial breeders years ago for all mobile racing and how it would be a salve for disgruntled punters, many years later there are just as many horses missing the start and just as many disgruntled punters!!!!

The sprint lane is just another knee jerk reaction. that is my opinion. People need to inderstand you can't please all the people all the time, and therein lies the problem with knee jerk "fixes".

Cheers,
Dan

It's not just punters but keeping more horses in the game. What hope does a squib have as Greg puts it of winning a race? They draw crap they can't do work and win. They draw to lead, they use a sprint early and squibs don't have two sprints. They take a cosy sit, at least they can be a chance. It might not be as earnt, but it still keeps them in the game.

There's certain dominations in harness racing.
Cramp at Mildura
Tritton at Newcastle
Turnbull at Bathurst
McCarthy at Menangle
Hall at Gloucester Park
Painting at Wagga


Everyone complains about these dominations but its no surprise what these six tracks have in common. no sprint lane.

[Messenger]

Are Nathan Jack and Bill Trembath trained monkeys? Refer Musical Delight APG win and Distant Memory Vicbred win. Two of the best drives Ive seen. If you reckon Mindarie Priddy and other leaders unlucky what about Quick Draft last night, Christen Me and Beautude Vic Cup. Some barriers and racing positions are just luckier than others, unless we just make straight line tracks 12 horses wide, but then I suppose some losers will whinge about the wind draught.
Are you having a shot at me there Brenno? I am assuming you are talking about my reference to how seriously cycling considers wind draft - let me know if that is what you are referring to before I go any further

Of course some barriers are luckier than others - I just wonder why we had to change the rules and some tracks to ensure that the inside of the second line is one of the luckier ones?

[aussiebreno]

Are you having a shot at me there Brenno? I am assuming you are talking about my reference to how seriously cycling considers wind draft - let me know if that is what you are referring to before I go any further

Of course some barriers are luckier than others - I just wonder why we had to change the rules and some tracks to ensure that the inside of the second line is one of the luckier ones?
Nah mate, I mean the beaten brigade out on the racetrack. No personal attacks here.
Your point about the draft earlier just made me think if it as an example of a disadvantage in my hypothetical straight line racing idea. It does read like I was having a go at you but I'm not!

[Messenger]

Your stored messages is full again Rich

Life is good Brenno :D

[Richard prior]

All clear Kev, Thanks mate

[Big K]

For me its pretty simple,The moment you have a horse going to the line hard held and not getting a run is the moment the entire sport is going backwards.No "ifs or buts" in this day and age every horse needs to be on a loose reign up the straight getting an opportunity if it is travelling.All the punters in general know it and its the biggest detractor to our sport IMHO.Punters are the lifeblood of the industry and If I had my way every State would have a straight track to race on to takeaway some of the disadvantages that exist with our current tracks.Just my opinion.

[Messenger]

For me its pretty simple,The moment you have a horse going to the line hard held and not getting a run is the moment the entire sport is going backwards.No "ifs or buts" in this day and age every horse needs to be on a loose reign up the straight getting an opportunity if it is travelling.All the punters in general know it and its the biggest detractor to our sport IMHO.Punters are the lifeblood of the industry and If I had my way every State would have a straight track to race on to takeaway some of the disadvantages that exist with our current tracks.Just my opinion.
The emboldened is a pretty strong point Kev. You wouldn't need a straight track as a mile track with 400m of straight should surely be sufficient - not that I would attend such a track as TV viewing would be better. TV/internet viewing goes hand in hand with punting nowadays but you have to admit that straight racing eg Gallops straight 6f racing, looks bloody ordinary on TV

[Danno]

If you build a track built to exact specifcations of the "majority" of punters, regardless of it's suitability you will still have punters complaining.

Alcyone may be able to enlighten with some figures, but from my personal observations. the off course wagering Turnover at Menangle is significantly LESS than the 1/2 mile HP track, if this is correct that blows out of the water, the "track..sprint lane...horses getting locked up" arguement, the problem our game is facing is NOT the afformentioned but more about we have become unfashionable and more and more irrelevant to the punting public.

We need an answer to this problem, and the answer needs to be found very soon!

[aussiebreno]

Danno, punting trends in the past 5 years have less to do with the tracks and more to do with the increased sports betting market.

[Danno]

Danno, punting trends in the past 5 years have less to do with the tracks and more to do with the increased sports betting market.

Thats precisely the point I was trying to make Brenno, we have bigger fish to fry! our market share of the punting dollar is diminishing at an alarming rate and the major cause is not sprint lanes and track sizes!!

Cheers,
Dan

[Messenger]

This topic has run its race (the horse in the sit got up) but has raised a more relevant one - in the hope that the powers that be are listening let's give it its own thread and hope the many smart brains I know we have on this forum can come up with the answers

[Njcstables]

Thats precisely the point I was trying to make Brenno, we have bigger fish to fry! our market share of the punting dollar is diminishing at an alarming rate and the major cause is not sprint lanes and track sizes!!

Cheers,
Dan

I totally agree Danno. Plenty of horses get held up at the finish on tracks that have sprint lanes. Conversely Ballarat and Horsham don't have sprint lanes and horses rarely get held up on those tracks. For mine, I'd much rather no sprint lane.

[Messenger]

Why didn't Courageousnquick use the sprint lane in The Silver Chalice Race 8 on Friday night at Melton? Stewards Report mentions leader Spokeswoman hung in - was that it? It would seem to have cost her the SHHD winning margin manoeuvering 3w

[brent_L]

Why didn't Courageousnquick use the sprint lane in The Silver Chalice Race 8 on Friday night at Melton? Stewards Report mentions leader Spokeswoman hung in - was that it? It would seem to have cost her the SHHD winning margin manoeuvering 3w
When Petroff decided to come over the heels of the winner there was still 20/30m to travel before the sprint lane came up. Touch and go as to whether it was the difference between gold & silver but certainly not a terrible manoeuvre IMO Kev.

[HarnessFan]

Isn't it funny that the tracks with the most atmosphere and people turning up are the like of Gloucester Park and Mildura. When sprint lanes were introduced they didn't take into account the punters that loved doing the form and the joy they had in winning when the opposition was locked up. Runners being locked up is actually one of the greatest joys in harness racing that should be embraced. Every race has a winner. The states that said no to sprint lanes are now the successful ones.


The greatest irritant in harness racing as an owner and a punter is the incredible advantage offered to the sprint lane horse. I would suggest that watching great drivers lock up other runners is a great spectacle. Seeing a speedy squib winning in a slow tempo race with a last quarter of 27 is my definition of boredom.

[Messenger]

I have expressed some of the same sentiments Jeroen but have been a little swayed by the argument that to win punters we cannot have runners going to the line hard held. It would seem to me that there is a new element to form study - who is going to find the leaders back and you often see No's 1 or 8 well supported for this reason.

Where did you get the statistics to support your opening sentence? WA has always had in its favour that gallops are not nearly as dominant over there and although I am not a gallops follower, I have a feeling that they have never been as dominant up in Mildura either, so I am not sure sprint lanes have anything to do with your supposedly factual first sentence anyway.

[HarnessFan]

Kevin, you seem to want to summarise this thread as going to the line hard held is a bad thing for the industry - very debatable.


The tragedy regarding sprint lanes (especially at Albion Park) is that the trapped runners are now the 1-1 and 1-2 horses. It is likely that you will see a higher proportion of horses held up at Albion Park due to the 3-wide train being stagnant and not putting pressure on death seat horses. Death seat horses never hand up (unless its a stablemate) as they know they will be the ones that don't get out.


The reality with sprint lanes is less pressure for the early lead, death seat horses controlling the tempo and 3-wide horses blocking any action.


In my "opinion" Albion Park racing has become extremely boring as a result of the sprint lane. The sprint lane horse has a cushy run and for the vast majority of races it becomes mathematically impossible for at least half the horses to earn - irrespective of the horses ability.


Now this cannot be good can it ?


The Newcastle way for me is the primary option to consider for fair racing.

[Messenger]

I started this thread saying sprint lanes suck - remember
BUT
if you think that sprint lanes are the cause of the death and 3w horse controlling the race you must be under 30yo
- at the very latest, that has been happening in Vic since the Mannings came on the scene over 20yrs ago

How you summarize the thread is what most people on here seem to see as a bad look in terms of attracting punters
The 1x1 and 1x2 horse are not compelled to stay in the running lane when the 3w horse starts to make his move.

I hate that the horse with the easiest run is guaranteed a run in the straight but I am now more concerned that we need the opposite of what I love (small tracks where we can see them with the naked eye all the way) ie maybe not sprint lanes but big tracks with huge straights that enable every runner time to get out

[Toohard]

Last 5 days racing in Vic.. 40+ races... 1 winner has used sprint lane to win. Oaks winner last Friday night.

[Lucky Camilla"s Lovechild]

I didnt like the idea of sprint lanes when they were first proposed. But the way I see it now is, there used to be 1 good barrier that everyone was after. Now there are 2. In my eyes it gives another horse with an otherwise useless barrier a chance in the finish. And, if you do some homework, it can be lucrative too. Especially over the sprint journey at Melton. ie. Trifecta's and first 4's.

[Toohard]

Month of April 2014 courtesy of son Luke (homework assignment...). 272 races on tracks where sprint lanes. 26 winners used sprint lane. Less than 1 per meeting. Take off of that ones that would have got up inside even without sprint lane.

Our horse been beaten 5 times after working to front and leading and running 2nd getting beaten by sprint lane horse. Once won one doing same..moment to savour!

Has changed racing in good way IMO. No more sit up and sprint. Certainly not at Melton. Leader must get going early to negate horse on its back.

Good work Lukey.. just don't be telling your Mum I asked you to do that...

[Triple V]

Month of April 2014 courtesy of son Luke (homework assignment...). 272 races on tracks where sprint lanes. 26 winners used sprint lane. Less than 1 per meeting. Take off of that ones that would have got up inside even without sprint lane.

Our horse been beaten 5 times after working to front and leading and running 2nd getting beaten by sprint lane horse. Once won one doing same..moment to savour!

Has changed racing in good way IMO. No more sit up and sprint. Certainly not at Melton. Leader must get going early to negate horse on its back.

Good work Lukey.. just don't be telling your Mum I asked you to do that...

VVV- OUTSTANDING work there Luke. A +++
Incredible stats. Sprint Lanes are a myth winners wise. Race tempo yes. Winners, no.

[Njcstables]

The problem that I have with the sprint lane is not so much that the inside line get a huge advantage, it's more so that the horses in the second half of the field have no chance. It's changed racing so that everything revolves around protecting field position. Horses don't run the gate unless they can genuinely get across, then they hand up to something that just sits wide around the first turn out of trouble. The next one follows it up to the breeze and no sooner does it get there and the three wide line takes off 1200 out but don't put pressure on they just amble up.

So at the bell you have four lines of three but only 4-5 genuine winning chances(all of whom are in the front half of the field). The horses 3-2, 3-3, 3-4 all sprint there arses off around the corner into the straight before the inside line just cruise through.

[aussiebreno]

The problem that I have with the sprint lane is not so much that the inside line get a huge advantage, it's more so that the horses in the second half of the field have no chance. It's changed racing so that everything revolves around protecting field position. Horses don't run the gate unless they can genuinely get across, then they hand up to something that just sits wide around the first turn out of trouble. The next one follows it up to the breeze and no sooner does it get there and the three wide line takes off 1200 out but don't put pressure on they just amble up.

So at the bell you have four lines of three but only 4-5 genuine winning chances(all of whom are in the front half of the field). The horses 3-2, 3-3, 3-4 all sprint there arses off around the corner into the straight before the inside line just cruise through.
The exact same thing happens at tracks without sprint lanes though, at least in the Riverina. At least with a sprint lane its one more genuine danger to the leader.

[HaroldParker]

It's not just punters but keeping more horses in the game. What hope does a squib have as Greg puts it of winning a race? They draw crap they can't do work and win. They draw to lead, they use a sprint early and squibs don't have two sprints. They take a cosy sit, at least they can be a chance. It might not be as earnt, but it still keeps them in the game.

There's certain dominations in harness racing.
Cramp at Mildura
Tritton at Newcastle
Turnbull at Bathurst
McCarthy at Menangle
Hall at Gloucester Park
Painting at Wagga


Everyone complains about these dominations but its no surprise what these six tracks have in common. no sprint lane.

Every example is better and probably fitter horses being driven aggressively to win (or attempt) to win races.

Squibs aren't beating them with a sprint lane.

[aussiebreno]

Every example is better and probably fitter horses being driven aggressively to win (or attempt) to win races.

Squibs aren't beating them with a sprint lane.

Exactly right. Which means the PBD system doesn't have an impact so there us in effect no handicapping going on and we get short priced faves which punters hate and other trainers no chance of a winner and leaving game or reducing numbers. Thr PBD is our answer to weights in the gallops, but with no sprint lane its one less chance for lower quality horses.

[Messenger]

Not wanting to argue about it but I thought race 4 at Pinjarra yesterday was a big plus for sprintlanes.Longshot draws 7..drags back to last..runs up to 3 back the pegs..all horses have the opportunity to pull out and get some momentum up before the inside horses get an opportunity to sprint.with no sprintlane the winner would have run around 5th.Great to see all horses on a loose rein up the straight..Have a look when the replay becomes available..as for some reason it sometimes takes forever for race replays to be put up for WA races!!

Cheers K

(I have quoted K's post from the odds and ends thread here)

Fair call K, it definitely turned out to be an astute drive. I did however think there were a couple of other factors too. A field of only 8 helps as does a 3rd Q of 27.5 Even then the horse that ran 7th was definitely held up

Cheers Another K

[Messenger]

Thinking about how a smaller field helps more runners to see daylight, how would it be if Harness were daring enough to stage 6 horse races on sprint lane tracks. Place betting becomes only 2 divies - so what. Promote the fact that every horse is going to see daylight/have a winning chance no matter where they settle (should happen 90% of the time), promote the quinella, promote a first 6. What do you think? It would be a point of difference from the gallops and even better than the doggies 8 starters (where anything can happen)

[Danno]

Sorry Kevin,
but I think that idea absolutley stinks, our game has been gradually becoming more and more like the North American model....mile racing, mobile starts..and look how successful they are at holding punters on Harness racing...NOT, if it wasn't for "the slots" they would be racing for fun and bugger all else ( like we will be if we don't get some real action).

Sorry mate my personal opinion is lets be different and interesting rather than the same boring thing, I'm aware there was some unqualified "market research" doing the rounds a while back saying "young punters want shorter races" but I'm pretty sure if you did the same survey 60 years ago, using the same demographics, you would have got a similar skewed result.

Seriously mate, if we go down the track of 6 horse 1,000 metre races wearing colours that represent barrier draws, I for one will definitley give the game away, and that's a big but honest statement, this silly game we play has been a big part of my life for about 45 years so far, but I am definite on that, I'm gone if we get to that and I know a lot of other people who would as well.

cheers,

Dan

[Njcstables]

I'm with you Danno.

[Messenger]

I am not saying I would like it men (definitely think it would work better for 2000+m races anyway) but if we really need to catch the punting dollar, I think small fields keep everybody interested. I do not have a problem with coloured barrier numbers and/or driver colours. I admit to clutching at straws a bit as I do not see HRV resurrecting interest/providing entertainment and facilities at tracks other than Melton (which is too outer Melbourne) and I fear winning punting dollars is the only alternative to improving attendance.

Edit - Just going through tonight's results and saw that there was 1200m 7 horse racing tonight at Melton - I had no idea about this when I made the post about 6 horse fields, so that is not what I was referring to folks (but I am now interested in watching the replays)
ps The gross times in the results for these races do not add up

[HaroldParker]

The whole state will be infected by them soon.

The argument for them is flawed.

"Harness Racing NSW (HRNSW), in conjunction with the Bathurst Harness Racing Club (BHRC), has resolved to introduce a sprint lane and a mobile configuration of eight and four, to allow for a maximum field size of 12, from the initial race meeting on 10 October.
It was determined that the most opportune time to experiment with a sprint lane is from the outset of the track’s opening and the move to increase the maximum field size is linked to the turnover benefits that go with larger field sizes."

How long until Menangle has 8 x 4 and a Sprint Lane ?

Think of the multi nationals lining up to buy naming rights to the Cheats Lane : )

Tabcorp is running the show.

Back more winners than they deem appropriate (Fixed Odds) on the TAB or with Luxbet and they'll restrict / refuse your bet quick smart.

They've got Harness Racing NSW and VIC jumping through hoops for them ... yet at the same time they're short changing (robbing) the industry.

At some point, similar to Racing NSW, they've got to grow a pair. Which isn't going to happen anytime soon whilst Tabcorp is (no doubt) making the appointments.

[Messenger]

I don't like them either Bob. I consider them a cheats lane for why should the 3posn be guaranteed a run in the str. The leader, the death, the 3w and wider are all guaranteed runs in the str BUT they have done some work to earn their run whereas the 3 posn horse has generally done nothing. Sometimes they have had to lead and hand up to get it but if there was no sprint lane the handing up of the lead is going to go back to being a rare occurrence.

If I was still a punter I am not sure how I would feel.
With NO spr lane I would have to consider whether the 3posn horse may or may not get out but it was not a huge consideration
With the spr lane I know he (and maybe 5posn) is going to get out.
If I fancy the leader I really have to be able to assess the tempo of the race to determine whether the 3posn is likely to finish over the top of the leader. If I fancy a swooper or Death horse, I have to consider how good a cart in the leader will give the spr laner.

For Quinellas, Trifectas and First Four betting it probably creates more possibilities and thus bigger dividends (like more genuine chances does) and thus becomes more attractive to some punters which can be self perpetuating.
Forgetting the pro punter. Just trying to make the Red Hots less hot and more attractive to the general punter I think the spr lane only makes supporters of the 3 and 5posn horses less likely to be disillusioned because their horse now sees daylight in the str.

Horses not getting a run in the gallopers is far rarer (and what the public are often comparing us to) as their track/strs are so much bigger but we do we really want huge tracks for then we become another TV/Binocular only viewing sport and lose our point of difference. It is strange that we mostly get compared to the gallopers (horses I guess) and not the dogs as they have the problem of dogs drawn the middle getting squeezed up and yet I do not think it is considered a huge problem for their turnover so maybe the belief that 'held up horses' is really hurting Harness is greatly exaggerated.

[HaroldParker]

As a punter you adjust to it. Trouble is, because it's there, there's always that element of doubt that a horse who shouldn't be handing up will because a) it's a stablemate or b) it's a lazy option to sit on a danger rather than race it. On the whole wherever they've been introduced racing has become less competitive and as a fan of the sport, less interesting.

There are far more three and four pegs winners at tracks without than with.

NSW was always going to get them. The vocal minority had the ear of the right people.

... Oh and Tabcorp probably told them that there's 0.1% of extra turnover in it ... yet I try and have $200 on something @ 11-4 on Sunday and they won't take anything over $34.

[Messenger]

$34 LOL
They provide but do not really like Fixed Odds.
They long for the tote pool days only where they don't care if you bet more than the pool as they cannot lose and like the Pokies they just take their healthy % of the pool

[HaroldParker]

What I find perplexing, especially @ Melton, is there could be a ton of room outside yet drivers are fixated on a Sprint Lane that is of no benefit to them.

I watched Glenferrie Shuffle' race last Sunday before I backed her yesterday. I don't know what she was expecting to occur, a Miracle parting of the seas ? but there was an acre to her outside to try something. I think we've a crop of drivers shit scared to avoid contact / make something happen because of sprint lanes.

Best racing in Australia ... Gloucester Park and Menangle = no Sprint Lane.

so when Tabcorp instructs HRNSW to change Menangale to 8 x 4 and a Sprint Lane wider than the Jersey Turnpike because their modelling shows there's an extra 0.1% of turnover in it for them ... that leaves GP.

Won't be long until Menangle kicks off @ 10am on a Saturday morning to plug the gap.

[aussiebreno]

What I find perplexing, especially @ Melton, is there could be a ton of room outside yet drivers are fixated on a Sprint Lane that is of no benefit to them.

I watched Glenferrie Shuffle' race last Sunday before I backed her yesterday. I don't know what she was expecting to occur, a Miracle parting of the seas ? but there was an acre to her outside to try something. I think we've a crop of drivers shit scared to avoid contact / make something happen because of sprint lanes.

Best racing in Australia ... Gloucester Park and Menangle = no Sprint Lane.

so when Tabcorp instructs HRNSW to change Menangale to 8 x 4 and a Sprint Lane wider than the Jersey Turnpike because their modelling shows there's an extra 0.1% of turnover in it for them ... that leaves GP.

Won't be long until Menangle kicks off @ 10am on a Saturday morning to plug the gap.
You would have been happy with Dixons drive!!

[NormanS]

My arguments against sprint lanes in NSW include all previously listed but add in NSW we still have the "push out rule" where upon passing the candy pole in the back straight the last time you may shift a runner outside you without causing interference." To my understanding this rule does not exist in VIC. It is a driving skill to extract yourself and this where skilled drivers are concerned should minimise a lot of the argument for sprint lanes.

[Messenger]

But Norman because all drivers are not of the same skill it is hard to believe it is allowed to exist in these days of OH&S

[Maorisidol]

What I find perplexing, especially @ Melton, is there could be a ton of room outside yet drivers are fixated on a Sprint Lane that is of no benefit to them.

I watched Glenferrie Shuffle' race last Sunday before I backed her yesterday. I don't know what she was expecting to occur, a Miracle parting of the seas ? but there was an acre to her outside to try something. I think we've a crop of drivers shit scared to avoid contact / make something happen because of sprint lanes.

Best racing in Australia ... Gloucester Park and Menangle = no Sprint Lane.

so when Tabcorp instructs HRNSW to change Menangale to 8 x 4 and a Sprint Lane wider than the Jersey Turnpike because their modelling shows there's an extra 0.1% of turnover in it for them ... that leaves GP.

Won't be long until Menangle kicks off @ 10am on a Saturday morning to plug the gap.

So the $3 Fav draws 3, the 2 horse at $45 leads and Fav ends up quite ok 1 out 2 back. Just after the bell the Fav is now same but a 3 wide train has started with 2 horses in it, so now at the turn into straight, Fav is 4 back with all but 2 horses in front of him basically last, and sweet bugger alls chance of winning.
Now if this race was at GP or Menangle, Ballarat etc, you've done your dosh, damn!
Hang on, this race was at Port Pirie tonite, Race 3, and theres a sprint lane, who wins, the $42 leader on the small track, or do the punters celebrate cos their horse now 4 pegs got a chance?
http://www.harness.org.au/meeting-results.cfm?mc=PP220814&ms=sa#PPC22081407

[Messenger]

Ash you get yourself in the 'Trotters Only' thread quick smart and give us some predictions for Races 2,3,4 on Sunday.

Who let him out here in the general public :confused:

[brent_L]

Ash you get yourself in the 'Trotters Only' thread quick smart and give us some predictions for Races 2,3,4 on Sunday.

Who let him out here in the general public :confused:
Pay special attention to R4 Ash........will the fav hand up to Blitz??

[NormanS]

But Norman because all drivers are not of the same skill it is hard to believe it is allowed to exist in these days of OH&S

I understand this, but it is in the rules. What has happened however is "less" driver education. There are skills that you have to learn if you want to be the complete driver. Some drivers are best out it front but all but useless if they get stuck in a field. Sprint lanes require a different skill for rating a race by the driver in front.
Then there is the stewards. If you cause interference you get a holiday. Maybe this needs to be a harsher penalty however you do see drivers with a lap full of horse 3 pegs who either hasn't developed the skills required and therefore is "scared" of getting a holiday and they stay put.
One thing a sprint lane does is take away part of the RACING by trying to make it more predictable. Predictable isn't racing it's called a procession.
(I'm sorry if I covered more than 1 topic there but they are sort of related)

[Messenger]

One thing a sprint lane does is take away part of the RACING by trying to make it more predictable. Predictable isn't racing it's called a procession.
(I'm sorry if I covered more than 1 topic there but they are sort of related)
As I said, I am not a fan either and you are so right about the lane makes racing more predictable - do they believe this is what punters want.
I have been led to believe that the Dogs turnover has increased in the last decade - they're not predictable, they often resemble a roller derby

[Mister JayKO]

Many years ago the big wigs suggested that the image of the game was an issue and we needed to improve the quality of the product. An opportunity came up to run some short meetings in the "twilight zone" between the end of the Saturday gallops and the start of the Saturday night harness card. Our little club took the initiative and started running 4-5 race restricted cards televised on Sky for the minimum prizemoney $1500 per race from memory.


The turnover was staggering but it proved that quality had zero to do with it. With respect to the horses that raced these were the ones that were at the time unable to get a start at normal C Tab meetings as the fields were selected from the bottom up. Not long after our little trial, bigger clubs tried to move in and this was the for runner if you like to Menangle starting their Saturday night cards at 5pm ish.


Sprint Lanes are created for perception only, I cannot see why we need them on any track, let alone those >1,000M, it has changed the way races are run and removed much initiative from horses who settle back in the field. The above example proved to me that aesthetics and horse quality play no part in whether people will partake in the sport. If it's on and they are near an outlet, people will bet on it and sadly that's the only thing that now matters.

[Triple V]

Sprint Lanes are a MASSIVE WANK.
The best two tracks to watch/bet on by far are Menangle and Gloucester Park and NEITHER has a sprint lane. A Pox on the houses of all those responsible for their introduction to NSW. Hang your heads in shame.

[The Form Student]

I am opening this debate to get opinions on whether the sprint lane is necessary! it would be helpful to hear from all industry participants. Bathurst is on trial, let's see if it is needed before it becomes a piece of folklore!

Some like me, would call them "Divine Intervention"

I don't think one horse has won so far using the sprint lane at Bathurst, even being early days, so do horses need the sprint lane "divine intervention" to improve their chances?

They have built a bigger track, but now some want to add a sprint lane, next we will be racing in staggered lanes around the track!

Come on, you have got the bigger track, some drivers are better than others, some drivers or horses are luckier than others, so let the race decide the winner?

Barrier draws are important they are there to put your horse in a race, the race starts you take your chance, there is no need to provide added advantages with a sprint lane! If you get held up for a run, that is the luck of the game. The arguments has been used, that to "punters" this creates the "red hots" syndrome, did you see that? Some get runs, some don't, that is it, I don't think people are that naive not to recognise this!

What about horses in the running line being help up when someone make a run 3 or 4 deep, that is racing! Or do you want the drivers moving wider to allow room for them to get out!

At Menangle, a lot of horses get inside runs and there is no sprint lane, take the last race yesterday!

At Melton, the sprint lane changes the race completely on straightening, the leader may have fought off all challengers during the race, then up the inside goes someone having an easy run, not going around one horse, knocks it off! Without a sprint lane the driver of the leader can use his ability to hold them in, and perhaps get his deserved win, not serve it up to others on a platter.

Albion Park, is the "Sprint Lane" capital of the world, every race and tactics revolves who is going to be getting the sprint lane run!

My opinion is, every runner should be racing on a level playing field! I welcome your comments.

[kung fu man]

Have to agree i dont think we need them, could argue both ways !

[Danno]

Not a fan of sprint lanes, I think the tactics that come from having a sprint lane reduces the overall value of the race as a spectacle and as a gambling option.
The sprint lane "mutes " a lot of other tactics, just like mile racing does, it limits the options of the drivers and hence limits the race as a gambling option. I have been saying this for as many years as I care to remember! Look at harness racing in North America with its mundane racing, if it wasn't for pokies the game would not exist over there, Harness punters bet on numbers and systems, they might as well bet on machines, not horses and drivers!!
while you are having a look around look at harness racing in Europe, still going gang busters and still racing over varying distances...

Cheers,
Dan

[Njcstables]

Absolutely no, definitely not get rid of them now, get rid of them forever!

[The Form Student]

Totally agree, if you draw wide on the second row, why would anybody go out of their way to try to win if they have a mediocre horse in that particular race? The incentive is not there for them or the punter! In general, you expect the better horses to win a race, not someone being give a presentation on a platter! You make a run from back in the field, make up 5-6 lengths and hit the lead, then something that has been "asleep" for most of the race gets a rails run and knocks you off! Come on the administrators of Harness Racing, you have your bigger tracks, let's just leave it at that, not change the credibility of the sport!

[Messenger]

6 pages of thoughts in this Sprint Lanes Suck thread from May 3 this year after Mindarie Priddy was beaten in The Oaks

http://www.harnessracingforum.com/showthread.php?5875-Sprint-lanes-Suck

[The Form Student]

Thanks Kev, I knew there was a previous post somewhere on this topic...........it is now "urgent" for NSW racing, as once Bathurst get's its foot in the door, the floodgates will open for all tracks here! Look at WA, there major track is still only 800 metres, and yes leading is a big advantage, but it has not disadvantaged them, and runners back on the fence, take their chance and quite often get a run! We have bigger tracks now, and we then want to put a sprint lane on top!

Any person, driver trainer or punter etc, now looks at every race on the basis of who will be the leader, and the fence runners, this strategy takes the majority of the race form out of play!

If someone takes on a leader for the lead, the leader can say I will let him go, and will automatically get another crack later in the race. The skill and tactics have gone out the window! We need to look at this on an overall basis, not a particular race, or talking through your pocket! We all have had these situations go for us and against us, but in the end there should be no free ride for anybody!

[Messenger]

Thanks Kev, I knew there was a previous post somewhere on this topic...........it is now "urgent" for NSW racing, as once Bathurst get's its foot in the door, the floodgates will open for all tracks here! Look at WA, there major track is still only 800 metres, and yes leading is a big advantage, but it has not disadvantaged them, and runners back on the fence, take their chance and quite often get a run! We have bigger tracks now, and we then want to put a sprint lane on top!

Any person, driver trainer or punter etc, now looks at every race on the basis of who will be the leader, and the fence runners, this strategy takes the majority of the race form out of play!

If someone takes on a leader for the lead, the leader can say I will let him go, and will automatically get another crack later in the race. The skill and tactics have gone out the window! We need to look at this on an overall basis, not a particular race, or talking through your pocket! We all have had these situations go for us and against us, but in the end there should be no free ride for anybody!

As the previous thread shows, I am not a fan of the Sprint lane but as far as the emboldened goes - I wonder whether there shouldn't be 'more doubt' in that with more aggressive drivers the early leader who hands up should be a little concerned about what if the new leader hands up too and I end up in the 5 posn

It does not seem to happen much and I sometimes wonder whether there isn't a case of peer pressure in that senior drivers put 'maverick' drivers back in their box

[The Form Student]

The more pertinent aspect is that the driver of the leader and the horse outside now drive to conserve something for the home straight, unless something is coming fast 3 ,4 or 5 wide, to offset the rails run they know is coming! This does not mean a strong pace in the final lap and hinders runners ready to make their final sprint! What is happening is that leaders are more dominant than ever before!

I agree with Danno, there are just not enough longer races, these races give the opportunity for more tactics to come into play, not stereo-typed "mile" race where the barrier draw generally determines how the race is to be run!

[Messenger]

The more pertinent aspect is that the driver of the leader and the horse outside now drive to conserve something for the home straight, unless something is coming fast 3 ,4 or 5 wide, to offset the rails run they know is coming! This does not mean a strong pace in the final lap and hinders runners ready to make their final sprint! What is happening is that leaders are more dominant than ever before!

I agree with Danno, there are just not enough longer races, these races give the opportunity for more tactics to come into play, not stereo-typed "mile" race where the barrier draw generally determines how the race is to be run!

I am not sure that driving to conserve something in the home str is anything new Steve. Without a sprint lane, drivers in the past sometimes never fully released their horse in the home str so that the death horse could stick on long enough to stop the sit horse on the leaders back from getting out. As for a strong pace in the final lap - I think we are actually still seeing that but rarely a strong pace the lap before. Without much pace except for the last lap, horses from back in the field have to exceptional to make ground late

[The Form Student]

To refine my thought, the leader and death horses are "looking over their shoulder" waiting for the fence horse to come through, so the death horse is not overpowering the leader to early if it can, and visa versa, they know they are just sitting ducks! In the past the sit horse would have to pull back and come 3 or 4 wide, or look for a split, now they just wait, less distance and timing involved to get a run!
One of only a few times that I can recall a driver forsaking the "privilege" run behind the leader waiting for the sprint lane, was Amanda Turnbull on Just Cala, to win the Breeders Crown Final. She came 3 wide, she was not waiting for the sprint lane, it shows that racing tactics and race circumstances, are what brings the glorious uncertainty to racing, not follow the leader!
Look at Menangle racing, no-one gets upset when a horse gets held up, or can't get a split, it is just racing at it's natural best!

[Messenger]

Like I said Steve, I hate the Sprint Lane too. This season I am keeping stats for Melton on how often the 3 or 5 posn win or place

[Maorisidol]

Glass half full?
Glass half empty?
To me its interesting that those who dislike the sprint lane are glass half empty people, seeing the negative perspective.
Have any of these owners, trainers, drivers, punters been on the positive receiving end of a winning sprint lane horse? In that example have they not accepted the winners cheque because it was "unfair" or they got an "easy ride" or have they not cashed in the winning betting ticket?
I don't think so...
How about every owner, trainer, driver and winning punter who win cos of the sprint lane, are they happy? Hell yeah.
We still get horses not getting a run and being held up not getting out even at Menangle, thats frustrating, i believe even at Menangle a sprint lane should even out chances cos the straight is so much longer than say Penrith or similar.
And of course you also get examples like i quoted below in post 62 of this thread where the Fav has no chance of winning and a $42 chance leads to the home turn...

So the $3 Fav draws 3, the 2 horse at $45 leads and Fav ends up quite ok 1 out 2 back. Just after the bell the Fav is now same but a 3 wide train has started with 2 horses in it, so now at the turn into straight, Fav is 4 back with all but 2 horses in front of him basically last, and sweet bugger alls chance of winning.
Now if this race was at GP or Menangle, Ballarat etc, you've done your dosh, damn!
Hang on, this race was at Port Pirie tonite, Race 3, and theres a sprint lane, who wins, the $42 leader on the small track, or do the punters celebrate cos their horse now 4 pegs got a chance?
http://www.harness.org.au/meeting-re...sa#PPC22081407

Fav wins, Fav gets a chance, that whats i want as an Owner or trainer or driver or punter, i want a chance...
ps. and not every horse who has the sit, and the chance to outsprint the leader is ALWAYS good enough to actually win!!!
Its not like every race is won by the sprint lane, you'd think the way some people talk about the scourge of sprint lanes and the pox of it all that EVERY race is won up the dirty alley!

[The Form Student]

Glass half empty or full is not the answer, as I said we have been all on the receiving end of good and bad luck with sprint lanes!........no contest!.......My response is that you race on a particular track and configuration for the majority of the race, the position you hold at the point of the turn has been due to the circumstances of that particular race, and then you pull the rug out from under the contestants, and allow an inside run............that is not on, it does not conform to sportsmanship in any shape or form...........how many punters on the bad receiving end are going to hang around, with copping that! ......the fact that all sprint laners don't win is not testimony to keep the rule........the stewards try to keep a level playing field, so should administrators of the sport.........all runners in a race arrive at the home turn in certain positions due the circumstances of that race, then you want to change the rules and give someone a "clear run ticket"........come on it is unfair, not sportsmanlike, and UN-Australian!

[Messenger]

Glass half full?
Glass half empty?
To me its interesting that those who dislike the sprint lane are glass half empty people, seeing the negative perspective.
Have any of these owners, trainers, drivers, punters been on the positive receiving end of a winning sprint lane horse? In that example have they not accepted the winners cheque because it was "unfair" or they got an "easy ride" or have they not cashed in the winning betting ticket?
I don't think so...
How about every owner, trainer, driver and winning punter who win cos of the sprint lane, are they happy? Hell yeah.
We still get horses not getting a run and being held up not getting out even at Menangle, thats frustrating, i believe even at Menangle a sprint lane should even out chances cos the straight is so much longer than say Penrith or similar.
And of course you also get examples like i quoted below in post 62 of this thread where the Fav has no chance of winning and a $42 chance leads to the home turn...

So the $3 Fav draws 3, the 2 horse at $45 leads and Fav ends up quite ok 1 out 2 back. Just after the bell the Fav is now same but a 3 wide train has started with 2 horses in it, so now at the turn into straight, Fav is 4 back with all but 2 horses in front of him basically last, and sweet bugger alls chance of winning.
Now if this race was at GP or Menangle, Ballarat etc, you've done your dosh, damn!
Hang on, this race was at Port Pirie tonite, Race 3, and theres a sprint lane, who wins, the $42 leader on the small track, or do the punters celebrate cos their horse now 4 pegs got a chance?
http://www.harness.org.au/meeting-re...sa#PPC22081407

Fav wins, Fav gets a chance, that whats i want as an Owner or trainer or driver or punter, i want a chance...
ps. and not every horse who has the sit, and the chance to outsprint the leader is ALWAYS good enough to actually win!!!
Its not like every race is won by the sprint lane, you'd think the way some people talk about the scourge of sprint lanes and the pox of it all that EVERY race is won up the dirty alley!

Your glass theory assumes there is something wrong with considering the downside of a scenario - I am sure you have a position of responsibility so do not tell me you never consider the negatives!

The example you give is like a beautiful fairytale Ash and just as you could spin me a few more I could refer you to the Brothers Grimm

I will give you some facts on Melton Metro meetings so far this season

The sprint lane has won 13 of 65 races ie 20%
The 1x2 and 1x3 have won NONE
We seem to have a problem there - maybe we should manufacture some artificial remedy like an overpass ;)

[aussiebreno]

Your glass theory assumes there is something wrong with considering the downside of a scenario - I am sure you have a position of responsibility so do not tell me you never consider the negatives!

The example you give is like a beautiful fairytale Ash and just as you could spin me a few more I could refer you to the Brothers Grimm

I will give you some facts on Melton Metro meetings so far this season

The sprint lane has won 13 of 65 races ie 20%
The 1x2 and 1x3 have won NONE
We seem to have a problem there - maybe we should manufacture some artificial remedy like an overpass ;)
Interesting that Ash makes the glass half empty remark, I had a similar comment ready to post in the Sunday/Monday prize-money thread.
So, what are the stats on leaders winning? And if we ignore the sprint lane winners how many more of those races did the leader finish 2nd?

[Maorisidol]

discuss discuss discuss
for against for against
pros cons
etc.

Are they gonna be taken away?????????

I think not...

[The Form Student]

You boys have come up with stats I had not considered, it makes it even more compelling.......the horse in the sit especially, and 3F have a privileged position whether they get a run or not is up to their driver, circumstances, and lady luck!.....they don't need a free excursion pass up the inside, how many race results have been tainted by the sprint lane!

Those stats should get people thinking!

The same applies to them as other runners in the race, when you are on the fence, you win some, and you lose some!

[Messenger]

Interesting that Ash makes the glass half empty remark, I had a similar comment ready to post in the Sunday/Monday prize-money thread.
So, what are the stats on leaders winning? And if we ignore the sprint lane winners how many more of those races did the leader finish 2nd?
The glass remark is probably pretty applicable to the Sunday-Monday debate Brendan
The leader (at the bell) has won 28 of the 65 = 43%
and been placed another 16 times which means they are running a place or winning 67% of the time or pretty much 2 out of every 3 races which is probably what you expect.
Best I can provide for you Brendan

[Maorisidol]

The glass remark is probably pretty applicable to the Sunday-Monday debate Brendan
The leader (at the bell) has won 28 of the 65 = 43%
and been placed another 16 times which means they are running a place or winning 67% of the time or pretty much 2 out of every 3 races which is probably what you expect.
Best I can provide for you Brendan

43% winning rate.
67% win/place rate for leader, they seem pretty darn good to me without that damn cheat lane dominating!!!
20 years ago and more, what might have these stats been pre sprint lanes?
would that have been much different i wonder in the world of 800m and less tracks with no sprint lane?
would it have been a greater leader bias with the leader getting the "soft" run up front? so back in these days the heat was on the leader getting the edge on the others in the race and now it can be on the sprint lane horse.
swings and roundabouts.
evolution.

[The Form Student]

discuss discuss discuss
for against for against
pros cons
etc.

Are they gonna be taken away?????????

I think not...

Bathurst is on trial........what is the trial?.......It should be what is best for racing.........an even playing field, not a specialist rule for certain runners, at the expense of others.......on large tracks, the sprint lane should not be needed.......you can't have a cosy run with cover on the fence, and travel less distance than the running line runners, and then expect a free uninterrupted run down the straight?......Or can you? The integrity of racing is at risk, if you draw a bad barrier, you will even have less chance than before, why risk your money........prizemoney for owners is not being distributed fairly because others have an additional benefit..........When a sprint lane runner wins, they should refund the acceptance fees to the other runners as compensation for their free ride! For punters, they should pay, let's say a 3rd of the win dividend to the 2nd horse, as they were beaten by unfair means! Come on get over the sprint lane, and not fall into the poor decision made by other states!

[Messenger]

Ash, I think the big difference is that most of the time the leader has to do something to get the lead and often has to do something to hold it and he also cuts the breeze.
The sprint lane may work to hold the 3 spot but after that he does not have to do little else but keep his fingers crossed until the straight

[The Form Student]

43% winning rate.
67% win/place rate for leader, they seem pretty darn good to me without that damn cheat lane dominating!!!
20 years ago and more, what might have these stats been pre sprint lanes?
would that have been much different i wonder in the world of 800m and less tracks with no sprint lane?
would it have been a greater leader bias with the leader getting the "soft" run up front? so back in these days the heat was on the leader getting the edge on the others in the race and now it can be on the sprint lane horse.
swings and roundabouts.
evolution.

The evolution will be that when a race is being run, those runners not on the fence, will go slower so that they can't be out sprinted up the straight! Sounds good to me, just cop the go slow fine! We don't see so much "shotgun" driving these days, but expect more in the future, especially when a stable has multiple runners, and big prizemoney races!

[cyclone george]

We can all look at stats but there is one stat that is 100% spot on. We will all race more horses that are suited to the sprint lane than the death seat. The worst rule they have changed is the 8 horse has to follow the 1 horse ,if the 1 walks out your out of play,or don't get a clear run ,least with the old way you had a choice to follow the 1 or 1 or 2 . The new way give the 9 a massive advantage of already being in the running line.

[The Form Student]

Let me put it this way, why should the horse behind the leader or 3F get a clear and free run up the inside, turning for home, when other runners in the race may be held up for a run! It just is not fair............in racing there are many good and bad luck stories of Whatif??........Harness racing perhaps is more prone to this with trying to get the gig that is wider than a horse through a gap, it makes it harder.........But that is what has to be done to win..........you cannot change the rules for a minority of runners in a race, even though they "may not even be affected every time" during a race. There has to be some common sense and logic behind these decisions.........not just a "bad" look for punters when their horse does not get a clear run from behind the leader........what about the others that don't......is it just bad luck for them!...........In the end you can't have your cake and eat it to, just because you end up behind the leader.....whether it is a tactical move or by circumstance that you are on the fence.

If you want to give every runner some sort of even chance, increase the depth of the sprint lane, and then let every runner make a call as to whether they want to go up the inside or come down the outside!

So what is the point of barrier draws, horses with mobile speed or lack of, tactics employed during a race. luck in running, horses performing at, above or below their ability worth, when you allow "some" a free advantage!

[brent_L]

Love them. As a punter, love being on at $3/4+ the place, 3 back on the pegs following 2 horses that won't fall back in my lap. The horse behind the leader goes down into the lane and my horse has a length it can improve immediately.....and that length is generally the difference between 3rd and being an also ran. Do I feel like I've cheated when I collect??.....hmmm

I question whether nationwide conformity (be it with or without the lane) would help increase turnover? Does the mug punter at the pub hesitate to bet because he's not sure whether there is a sprint lane or not?

[The Form Student]

Maybe they don't, but when they see their horse flying down the outside and gets beat a nose by a horse they see getting up the sprint lane, they might care then........you can only belt your head against a brick wall a few times before it hurts! They will probably think that harness racing is just a novelty event, and not a serious betting type!

[Big K]

At Melton, the sprint lane changes the race completely on straightening, the leader may have fought off all challengers during the race, then up the inside goes someone having an easy run, not going around one horse, knocks it off! Without a sprint lane the driver of the leader can use his ability to hold them in, and perhaps get his deserved win, not serve it up to others on a platter.

With a sprint lane does the leader have to fight off all challenges??cant he fight a couple and then take the sit say 1200mt out..isnt that driving tactics and skill? and then use the sprint lane to his advantage?..just a scenario to consider.For me,I bet on the trots only,because Im passionet about them..a lot of my mates wont bet on the trots at all!! why?? they say you get boxed in and you cant get a run for your money!! Gallops win..Trots lose..the TAB reflects this.I understand that its not soley the previous mentioned and there are other variables but we need to do something.

[Messenger]

At Melton, the sprint lane changes the race completely on straightening, the leader may have fought off all challengers during the race, then up the inside goes someone having an easy run, not going around one horse, knocks it off! Without a sprint lane the driver of the leader can use his ability to hold them in, and perhaps get his deserved win, not serve it up to others on a platter.

With a sprint lane does the leader have to fight off all challenges??cant he fight a couple and then take the sit say 1200mt out..isnt that driving tactics and skill? and then use the sprint lane to his advantage?..just a scenario to consider.For me,I bet on the trots only,because Im passionet about them..a lot of my mates wont bet on the trots at all!! why?? they say you get boxed in and you cant get a run for your money!! Gallops win..Trots lose..the TAB reflects this.I understand that its not soley the previous mentioned and there are other variables but we need to do something.
I think this is the core of it Kevin. If market research proves that this is so and that there is a change in attitude as a result of having sprint lanes then we probably have to wear them

[The Form Student]

That is rubbish! Until the last few years there were no sprint lanes, it did not effect the betting on Harness Racing.......look at the photos on this site of "massive crowds".............it is cop out that punters don't bet on harness racing because they get boxed.........when someone boxes another run in at the gallops they "all cheer" what a genius, great ride etc...........Harness Racing they say, they were robbed!.......I don't get it??................if this was "really" the case, why don't we see drivers on the fence hanging back a length or so from the horse in front waiting for an opportunity to get off the fence, or pull back to last and definitely get off the fence, if it really is a big deal??...........if you have a weak horse you relish it having a suck fun, and perhaps running a place, or shock horror getting out and winning, if the opportunity is there!

"With a sprint lane does the leader have to fight off all challenges??cant he fight a couple and then take the sit say 1200mt out..isnt that driving tactics and skill? and then use the sprint lane to his advantage?.." That's true, because there is a sprint lane available to do that, with no sprint lane, that driver needs to make a "tactical decision" whether to keep the lead or give up, and perhaps compromise his chances, as to whether he will see the light of day again during this race! This is just a cop out when someone does there money............it's a bit like cricket with all it's rules.......LBW......the ball has to be pitched in line with the stumps to be given out.......why don't they just say out........because it is all part of the "magic" of the game

Menangle does not currently have a sprint lane..........why aren't I hearing that Menangle is the worst place to bet on.......I see fence horses getting inside runs, getting out in the straight, going 3 or 4 wide every race.......and getting held up!!! That is racing for all it is worth! As mentioned previously you can't expect to get a cosy run on the fence, travelling the minimum distance in a race.......then bang!......up the inside you go with an uninterrupted run! Now, I can see punters calling this type of racing "the red hots.

I will give you an extension of what will begin to take place in races where sprint lanes continue to exist........say for example a stable or an ally of that stable, have 2 runners in a race, 1 leads the other sits 2F, if the leader runs along strongly, it just about takes out of play all the other runners in the running line, as they are gassed before the turn, and up goes "Johhny" down the sprint lane to victory........this is how racing will end up!

The only equalising redemption, is that the straights need to be long to give all runners a fair chance at winning!

[The Form Student]

I think they should plant trees in ALL sprint lanes.

Bravo........you watch a race now on a track with a sprint lane................AND ALL YOU DO IS WATCH THE HORSE BEHIND THE LEADER GETTING IT'S SPRINT LANE RUN...........NOT THE POOR BASTARD THAT HAS BEEN RACING 3, 4 OR 5 WIDE FOR THE LAST 600 METRES GETTING A BIT TIRED AS THEY TURN FOR HOME!

[aussiebreno]

Bravo........you watch a race now on a track with a sprint lane................AND ALL YOU DO IS WATCH THE HORSE BEHIND THE LEADER GETTING IT'S SPRINT LANE RUN...........NOT THE POOR BASTARD THAT HAS BEEN RACING 3, 4 OR 5 WIDE FOR THE LAST 600 METRES GETTING A BIT TIRED AS THEY TURN FOR HOME!
Who is the horse getting the sprint lane run? The lowly assessed/inferior horse who drew good to get a good run under PBD. Who is the horse out 5 wide? The one who drew shit because he is superior and higher assessed under PBD.
Evens it up.
Generally it's one of the better horses in the race leading as well. Evens it up that an inferior horse can get a cheap run.
The advantage received by way of PBD is negated severely without sprint lanes. These inferior horses may not be able to burn early to lead because they will falter late, let them get a sit and they are in the game. They take a sit on a track with no sprint lane and it's game over most of the time.

[Messenger]

Who is the horse getting the sprint lane run? The lowly assessed/inferior horse who drew good to get a good run under PBD. Who is the horse out 5 wide? The one who drew shit because he is superior and higher assessed under PBD.
Evens it up.
Generally it's one of the better horses in the race leading as well. Evens it up that an inferior horse can get a cheap run.
The advantage received by way of PBD is negated severely without sprint lanes. These inferior horses may not be able to burn early to lead because they will falter late, let them get a sit and they are in the game. They take a sit on a track with no sprint lane and it's game over most of the time.

Interesting point Brendan. Any chance we could just get rid of them for Championship races like Derbies etc where we want the best horses on the honour roll

[aussiebreno]

Interesting point Brendan. Any chance we could just get rid of them for Championship races like Derbies etc where we want the best horses on the honour roll
Let me know of a championship race where a sprint laner has cheated to victory?

[Messenger]

Let me know of a championship race where a sprint laner has cheated to victory?
The first one that springs to mind is the one that started the original of this thread

[Messenger]

An astute harness racing figure and creative thinker suggested to me: How would it be if we had a sprint lane in the back straight

[The Form Student]

Who is the horse getting the sprint lane run? The lowly assessed/inferior horse who drew good to get a good run under PBD. Who is the horse out 5 wide? The one who drew shit because he is superior and higher assessed under PBD.
Evens it up.
Generally it's one of the better horses in the race leading as well. Evens it up that an inferior horse can get a cheap run.
The advantage received by way of PBD is negated severely without sprint lanes. These inferior horses may not be able to burn early to lead because they will falter late, let them get a sit and they are in the game. They take a sit on a track with no sprint lane and it's game over most of the time.

So what happens in a non PBD race, are you putting witches hats in the sprint lane?
I get it, you are not happy with the PBD advantage.........you want more!......ahaa!.......a sprint lane to give you a clear run to the line, so you have an added advantage!.........but you want even more!.........OK, a set of steak knives as well! Don't we want the best horse to win?
What happens if your "lowly" assessed individual has no gate speed to take advantage of your self indulgent advantage, and another "highly" assessed individual gets this spot!...........where to now!...........an extended arm on the mobile in front of it to make sure "lowly assessed" individual will have the option to hand up the lead!

[aussiebreno]

So what happens in a non PBD race, are you putting witches hats in the sprint lane?
I get it, you are not happy with the PBD advantage.........you want more!......ahaa!.......a sprint lane to give you a clear run to the line, so you have an added advantage!.........but you want even more!.........OK, a set of steak knives as well! Don't we want the best horse to win?
What happens if your "lowly" assessed individual has no gate speed to take advantage of your self indulgent advantage, and another "highly" assessed individual gets this spot!...........where to now!...........an extended arm on the mobile in front of it to make sure "lowly assessed" individual will have the option to hand up the lead!
No, RBD just grin and bear it. Tracks need to be consistent in what they do. It's not like superior horses or handing up and getting the sprint lane. The superior horse is leading anyway most of the time.
The PBD is no advantage if you are a weak squib who if used out of the gate has nothing to give. The PBD is no advantage if you are stuck running up backsides. The PBD is no advantage if superior animals or off and gone before you see daylight. The PBD is only an advantage if they can use that better draw to get a better run. The number saddlecloth you wear isn't the advantage, the advantage is getting a better run. You get that better run with a sprint lane. \
Yes we do want the best horse to win. I dislike seeing the best horse lose, whether the best horse got held in, done it tough in the death, got attacked all the way in the lead, had to come too wide, got too far back. We can let the best horse have a good shot at drawing 2-4, no sprint lane, nothing will attack, and it wins at $1.20 with not much money in the pool. Or we can give these other horses a chance. Remember, it's just a chance, not a portkey to the top of the podium.
There are that many different facets to a pacer, gate speed, closing speed, tactical speed, grinder, etc yet we all seem to hate on a pacer who's asset is closing speed. Surely a much bigger issue is the amount of leaders winning. At least those who lack gate speed and get crossed and then use the sprint lane take a few wins off leaders (who win by far the majority of races). Yet we all hate on a horse with closing speed, yet don't see much issue with a horse who's only real asset was it's gate speed to lead.

[The Form Student]

How do you expect the "mug' punter to weigh up the pros & cons of their charge being or not being the sprint lane runner..........(because that is what they now have to take into consideration when having a bet on a harness race! Or worse still seeing their horse doing a power of work being knocked off by a horse getting the "the hand of god run"?
Let's keep racing simple, not interfere with the racecourse that has guided us for the majority of the race, to only throw that out of the window, at the most crucial point on the home turn?

[aussiebreno]

How do you expect the "mug' punter to way up the pros & cons of their charge being or not being the sprint lane runner..........(because that is what they now have to take into consideration when having a bet on a harness race! Or worse still seeing their horse doing a power of work being knocked off by a horse getting the "the hand of god run"?
Let's keep racing simple, not interfere with the racecourse that has guided us for the majority of the race, to only throw that out of the window, at the most crucial point on the home turn?
So, that's what it's really about? Not what's good for the industry, but what's easier for you?
As an occasional mug punter (I sometimes have a bet without having read the form) I actually just back a horse drawn towards inside of front row because you know it will get an easy run - whether that's the lead or leaders back it doesn't matter. It's going to have a chance. I would have thought term mug punter pretty much rules out the punter looking too in depth at pros and cons and that's why it's easy to invest on something that will have every chance. So that's increasing turnover (just as Brent mentioned he is inclined to back something at $3, or $4 the place because it might get a sprint lane).
I would have thought it was form students and not mug punters who are more affected by the variables a track with a sprint lane possesses. There a thousand variables when doing the form, just get used to it!

[Toohard]

http://bit.ly/1DAZ08i

Forget sprint lanes. This currently being trialled in France. Will certainly add some more variables to the punt!

[brent_L]

How do you expect the "mug' punter to way up the pros & cons of their charge being or not being the sprint lane runner..........(because that is what they now have to take into consideration when having a bet on a harness race! Or worse still seeing their horse doing a power of work being knocked off by a horse getting the "the hand of god run"?
I reckon Breno is spot on regarding the activities of a 'mug' punter there Steve. Also agree with a previous post in that the mug punter just wants to see his $$ get a crack at the finish line. IMO they are much less likely to be worried about being beaten by the sprint lane.
Although I think it was tongue in cheek, I did liked your previous suggestion Steve......make the lane deeper creating more running lanes to the finish line.....much like Port Pirie.

[Messenger]

No, RBD just grin and bear it. Tracks need to be consistent in what they do. It's not like superior horses or handing up and getting the sprint lane. The superior horse is leading anyway most of the time.
The PBD is no advantage if you are a weak squib who if used out of the gate has nothing to give. The PBD is no advantage if you are stuck running up backsides. The PBD is no advantage if superior animals or off and gone before you see daylight. The PBD is only an advantage if they can use that better draw to get a better run. The number saddlecloth you wear isn't the advantage, the advantage is getting a better run. You get that better run with a sprint lane. \
Yes we do want the best horse to win. I dislike seeing the best horse lose, whether the best horse got held in, done it tough in the death, got attacked all the way in the lead, had to come too wide, got too far back. We can let the best horse have a good shot at drawing 2-4, no sprint lane, nothing will attack, and it wins at $1.20 with not much money in the pool. Or we can give these other horses a chance. Remember, it's just a chance, not a portkey to the top of the podium.
There are that many different facets to a pacer, gate speed, closing speed, tactical speed, grinder, etc yet we all seem to hate on a pacer who's asset is closing speed. Surely a much bigger issue is the amount of leaders winning. At least those who lack gate speed and get crossed and then use the sprint lane take a few wins off leaders (who win by far the majority of races). Yet we all hate on a horse with closing speed, yet don't see much issue with a horse who's only real asset was it's gate speed to lead.

But Brendan does Mindarie Priddy deserve to be on the Oaks honour roll?
Barynya is a good horse mind you but what if this was a colt being beaten in the Derby by a horse gifted the run - it could make a difference to his chances of being sought out by a leading Stud

[The Form Student]

Do you know what, I can't believe these comments.............all I ever hear on the media is............What is the favourite doing, where is it, what happened to the fave etc...The majority of punters supposedly back the favourites in most cases, and follow this horse/s in the run! So my hypothesis is that this is the horse most want to see win any race!

The punter whether they be casual or not, that does not consider the "sprint lane" in their form, will be leaving out a vital part......to their detriment!

We already have so many variables involved controlling harness racing, too slow or too fast sectionals - you get fined!......you must disclose change of tactics - going forward or going back! - or with or without cover! It will be getting to the stage where we will have a choreographer preparing the runners for the staged event about to happen on the track.........All I have said is that I would like pure unadulterated racing...........no interference in any respect from outside............wouldn't that mean on the ideology of facts, that more often the better horse would beat the less better horse!.......Isn't that the way things should be in reality! Isn't that what punters want! Isn't that what owners/trainers/drivers would expect!

You mention you back things for a place etc, because they might get the 'hand of god run", and get the place for you!.........well the odds might be double if it was a truly run race of equal chances!

I hate favourites, my form revolves around getting them beat.......sometimes I have to face the reality the favourite looks the winner, and need to accommodate this!
No Sprint lanes at Gloucester Park..........smaller track, 800 metres.......no one whinges or complains when a horse gets held up for a run.

Menangle 1400 metre track, no-one whinges when runners get held up...........why change the course of a race!

[Maorisidol]

So i replayed the first 11 races last Sat nite and it goes like this,

To read my "language" B9 means barrier 9
3P means 3 pegs
3W means 3 wide
i think you should get it...

swan hill
B9 won leader at bell
2nd B13
initial leader B2 3rd had Sit USL not good enough
B1 3P =5-6th not good enough. ZERO EFFECT SL

Albion Park
leader B2 4TH
B3 Sit, LAST!!!
Winner B2 slow beginner settled 1/2 4w from 400
2nd 3w the trip, 4-5w from 400 B10 ZERO EFFECT SL

Globe Derby
B3 led
B2 Sit $1.70 Fav
1/1 B9 $11.80 Won
Fav USL 2nd. Fav backers lost, but they got a chance due to SL!!! SL used to positive effect for Fav backers.

Swan Hill
B1 led $3.20 won. g lang stacked em up, sprinted at 350m…to good
B3 Fav $1.50 challenged for lead, Sit, 2nd, USL couldn’t do it. gave punters a chance tho cos USL, HOWEVER lead drivers skills beat the SL!!!!! So SL gave Fav backers a better chance to win by USL not going around leader covering extra ground, however horse couldn't do it,

Albion Park
B4 led Fav $1.90 2nd no excuse
B2 Sit $4.70 faded 7th no excuse.
B11 Death, $5.40 Won too good.
B1 3P USL 4TH SL effective to get 3P into 4th... apart from First 4, no effect on betting!!!

Globe Derby
B2 Fav led Won
B7 Sit $6.50 Did Not USL, came outside leader 2nd.
B1 3P faded 7th ZERO EFFECT SL

Swan Hill
B6 led $6.70 3rd
B2 Sit $53.60 faded 7th!!!
B1 Fav Death Won
B8 1/1 2nd ZERO EFFECT SL

getting tedious now…
AP
Sit $16, 3rd no real advantage leader drifted out.
winner came from back.
leader 6th. ZERO EFFECT SL

GD
SL Zero effect.
leader won $23! ZERO EFFECT SL

SH
Sit horse $75! about 5th 30m behind
3P similar odds similar distance.
1/1 B7 USL, 2nd…
leader won B5 Fav. SL used by 1/1 horse cos $75 horse faded, went under leader to give itself a better chance, but still couldn't win.

AP Finally!!! After 11 races...
B1 Fav $1.80 led
B8 Sit USL WON!!! $8.70
Fav backers spew in that fav not good enough, both horses had equal runs, Fav backers had every chance. $8.70 Owners happy as cos they got a fair go!

Hers an interesting one, first race at Melton just now,
leader B4 $52
Sit B1 $12
Fav 3W the trip, wins,
interesting that the $12 shot 3P only got within half length of $52 leader.
MOST on here from what I've read would PERCEIVE that the $12 would run down the $52 with advantage of the SL, THAT DREADED SL, but it didn't.

So it just goes to show in my opinion that sometimes when some people yell and scream and cry about certain things they have a beef about, reality is, it might just not be as bad as you think!

Now granted, this is only a VERY small gathering of statistics, but it says to me that
1. you gotta be good enough to take ADVANTAGE of the SL and many times the Sit horse or 3P are not
2. horses are horses and sometimes "animals" prove they are made of flesh and blood and don't do what most may expect, hence a $1.50 getting rolled by a $8.70 or a $12 NOT catching a $52 via SL.

If Kevin on here does the stats for Melton for this month, will be very interesting to see results. Thnx Kev!
However this is city racing and not indicative of country racing which makes up the majority of all trots races in Australia so is also a small percentage.

[The Form Student]

I like your thinking........maybe weak horses are better off not getting out and getting a run......it may improve their chances to just follow the leader, rather than get cold wind on their faces!

[Messenger]

I will be doing the Stats all season Ash but even though I do it for every race on the program - I was only going to do it for the Metro meetings. I think I will stick to that as I won't miss one of them and I figured you tend to get less lopsided races (that is a horse classes above opposn) at Metro meetings

I can tell you that 3 horses that have sat 3W for the majority of the last lap have won so far at Melton's Metro meetings this season and yet none from the 1x2 or 1x3 (locked up by the 3w lane?)
With many more meetings to come - it will be interesting to see what the stats reveal

[Race For Fun]

As I wrote earlier I don't like sprint lanes. But I think that they are coming for most tracks. Every time I hear or read something about sprint lanes all I can think of is Blacks A Fake should have won five interdoms but for a sprint lane. All the work that he did in that race and to have a horse get a run inside him was just cruel. Mister Feelgood goes to stud an interdom winner (and he is a very good horse). For owners and trainers it's also getting done out of place prizemoney by a sprint lane runner. Place prizemoney helps feed the horse for the punter to have a bet on next week.

[Messenger]

The answer of course is long wide straights to give more runners a chance but that puts the trots unique amphitheatre experience at risk

[The Form Student]

http://bit.ly/1DAZ08i

Forget sprint lanes. This currently being trialled in France. Will certainly add some more variables to the punt!

Now that would be a good idea here, install that halfway down the straight, and then see who finishes, if any do! How lucky was that horse not to come down, forget about horses jumping shadows!

[The Form Student]

So, that's what it's really about? Not what's good for the industry, but what's easier for you?
As an occasional mug punter (I sometimes have a bet without having read the form) I actually just back a horse drawn towards inside of front row because you know it will get an easy run - whether that's the lead or leaders back it doesn't matter. It's going to have a chance. I would have thought term mug punter pretty much rules out the punter looking too in depth at pros and cons and that's why it's easy to invest on something that will have every chance. So that's increasing turnover (just as Brent mentioned he is inclined to back something at $3, or $4 the place because it might get a sprint lane).
I would have thought it was form students and not mug punters who are more affected by the variables a track with a sprint lane possesses. There a thousand variables when doing the form, just get used to it!

It's not what's easier for me, I don't care........I prefer to go without it, then the race is a true race! I have seen people punch around horses that could not ever get behind the leader or 3F if their life depended on it, to take advantage of the position, so how come those that can, get a further advantage!............you explain that to me?
Keep an eye on that hamstring!

[Big K]

But Brendan does Mindarie Priddy deserve to be on the Oaks honour roll?
Barynya is a good horse mind you but what if this was a colt being beaten in the Derby by a horse gifted the run - it could make a difference to his chances of being sought out by a leading Stud

Kevin,champion horses win whether there is a sprint lane or no sprint lane..if it wasnt good enough to win on the night then thats how it is,it happens some times.Irrespective of how the race panned out it did not win!So in my opinion,no it does not deserve to be on the Oaks honour roll.

[The Form Student]

Kevin,champion horses win whether there is a sprint lane or no sprint lane..if it wasnt good enough to win on the night then thats how it is,it happens some times.Irrespective of how the race panned out it did not win!So in my opinion,no it does not deserve to be on the Oaks honour roll.

If you owned the horse, you may think differently.......I believe that even though leaders win a high percentage, they have been brave enough to take the race up, and should not have their work undone by a horse getting a free run up the sprint lane.....the driver of the leader has no opportunity to hold that horse up for a run, by using his driving ability or luck, and perhaps sneak home.....the fence horse also needs to make it's own luck, not be given the free run!

[Messenger]

Kev to Kevin I know what you are saying but at the same time it virtually amounts to having to consider classic results pre and post sprint lane as on an old track (everything else being equal) she probably wins

Steve, your point about the courage it takes to lead is real. As a fairly competitive athlete in my day at athletics and cycling - you are surely a sitting duck when you take up the race and lead

I think that this debate is probably a waste of time as it is highly unlikely that either side will change the others mind

It is a pity Harnesslink does not have a 'poll' facility to see how many lie in each camp

[Maorisidol]

If you owned the horse, you may think differently.......I believe that even though leaders win a high percentage, they have been brave enough to take the race up, and should not have their work undone by a horse getting a free run up the sprint lane.....the driver of the leader has no opportunity to hold that horse up for a run, by using his driving ability or luck, and perhaps sneak home.....the fence horse also needs to make it's own luck, not be given the free run!

Steve, if i understand you correctly in saying, "the driver of the leader has no opportunity to hold that horse up for a run, by using his driving ability or luck", then your seemingly total opinion of the sprint lane that every horse that uses it wins...is wrong.
See below example i quoted earlier in this thread using the master Gav Lang. He had the 2nd fav with the hot fav having the sit and the SL at his mercy. But driver skill beat the hot fav AND the SL...

Swan Hill
B1 led $3.20 won. g lang stacked em up, sprinted at 350m…to good
B3 Fav $1.50 challenged for lead, Sit, 2nd, USL couldn’t do it. gave punters a chance tho cos USL, HOWEVER lead drivers skills beat the SL!!!!! So SL gave Fav backers a better chance to win by USL not going around leader covering extra ground, however horse couldn't do it,

http://www.harness.org.au/meeting-results.cfm?mc=QB181014&ms=vic RACE 2

[The Form Student]

Steve, if i understand you correctly in saying, "the driver of the leader has no opportunity to hold that horse up for a run, by using his driving ability or luck", then your seemingly total opinion of the sprint lane that every horse that uses it wins...is wrong.

http://www.harness.org.au/meeting-results.cfm?mc=QB181014&ms=vic RACE 2

Not what I am saying at all, I know that every sprint lane horse doesn't win........but if a leader get's beaten by a lip when a horse uses the sprint lane, just imagine the reverse results if that horse did not have the sprint lane, and if the driver of the leader was able to hold that horse up for a short distance in the straight, it would not have enough time to win! You are interfering with the natural running of a race........why do the other drivers need to have tactics, when the sit horse driver knows what is in his plan! To me, this has become an unfair sport! Yes, I may have to get used to it, but it is not right!

[Richard prior]

That's exactly what it's about Ash, If your leading and not being attacked, You can set the tempo for the race and try and get the jump on the sprint lane horse as Gavin has done and it's all about knowing your opposition and the ability of the horse that's sitting on your back. Now I'm not a driver and never will be but honestly, You would need to have eyes like Marty Feldman to watch the whole field but if you can dictate the tempo unchallenged, The horse on your back is the danger and you would definitley try to get the jump on it.

[The Form Student]

Yes, I have looked at your race and I would suggest that Gavin knew he had walked up the back straight in 30, (even the trotters race went quicker up the back in 29.3 & home in 28.3, a 57.6 last half), Gav's last half in 58.1, and slightly faster last QTR in 28........he knew he had stolen the race off the other drivers.......it had nothing to do with the sprint lane or the horse's prices, but the next runner in the market was 15/1.

I am not sticking up for the leader totally, what about all the other runners that have to negotiate and obtain a run in the race, mostly wider on the track, what assistance are they getting?......NONE!.......is it fair, most definitely not.........whenever, I look at the record of a horse, I will now wonder if it got uninterrupted rails runs to win!........that will be a travesty of justice for all the other runners, whether it mattered or not!

[brent_L]

As I wrote earlier I don't like sprint lanes. But I think that they are coming for most tracks. Every time I hear or read something about sprint lanes all I can think of is Blacks A Fake should have won five interdoms but for a sprint lane. All the work that he did in that race and to have a horse get a run inside him was just cruel. Mister Feelgood goes to stud an interdom winner (and he is a very good horse). For owners and trainers it's also getting done out of place prizemoney by a sprint lane runner. Place prizemoney helps feed the horse for the punter to have a bet on next week.
Not sure that's quite fair Toni. If memory serves me correct mr F came around most of the field only to duck back down to the inside to get the win......hardly a 'cheat lane' victory IMO

[brent_L]

But Brendan does Mindarie Priddy deserve to be on the Oaks honour roll?
Barynya is a good horse mind you but what if this was a colt being beaten in the Derby by a horse gifted the run - it could make a difference to his chances of being sought out by a leading Stud
Kev, the most recent running of the Vic Derby was won by a sprint-laner.......a gelding beating a colt for that matter. That victory however, was a result of the barrier draw (+ a whole lot of team driving), much the same as the oaks race mentioned. Both leaders in those races were only afforded that chance thru drawing a good/lucky barrier.

When it comes to the faster class horses, the barrier draw is the ONLY thing that separates them. All this BS regarding horses taking advantage of a sprint lane can ONLY occur if LUCK plays its part in a draw. Next thing I'll be reading is that after drawing the cherry and saluting u must go to the back of the queue (outside draw) to pay your dues......give me a break.

[Race For Fun]

Not sure that's quite fair Toni. If memory serves me correct mr F came around most of the field only to duck back down to the inside to get the win......hardly a 'cheat lane' victory IMO

I didn't call it a "cheat lane" or imply that BUT if MF or any horse has to work around not up the inside it makes a difference to the outcome of any race. Not like BAF drifted of the fence and driver did not straighten her horse.

[Richard prior]

Not sure that's quite fair Toni. If memory serves me correct mr F came around most of the field only to duck back down to the inside to get the win......hardly a 'cheat lane' victory IMO

Now Mr Feelgood was no slouch that's for sure and he put in a mighty run that night, Auckland Reactor's antic's didn't help Blackie.

[The Form Student]

I didn't call it a "cheat lane" or imply that BUT if MF or any horse has to work around not up the inside it makes a difference to the outcome of any race. Not like BAF drifted of the fence and driver did not straighten her horse.

Your comment is spot on.......up the inside is the shortest way home......the fence runners have already had the advantage of the shortest trip, then an inside run as well!....they should take their chance like the rest of the other runners! Most of the time they get it........if they don't, it is not the greatest tragedy of the century!

I have already given enough examples of why the sprint lane is not fair.........I have not heard one decent argument for them! Bathurst is on trial?? What does this mean?.....We are introducing it!.........Of course it does!...............It's just like "the recession we know we are probably going to have!" No matter how big the track is, the leader and fence runners have the advantage.....you've just increased the chances of these horses filling the placings! Draw a bad barrier, and you have just about done your acceptance fee, and punting money! There is no incentive for drivers to bust their guts from bad barriers, as they now have to beat 2 leaders!!!!

Just because ViC & QLD have decided to cop out with sprint lanes.......don't let us follow their pitiful lead!

[Messenger]

Humourously (seriously) Tony, let us have some fun on the board - it was not like we were totally derailing the thread

[teecee]

Humourously (seriously) Tony, let us have some fun on the board - it was not like we were totally derailing the thread


Your posts have been moved to another thread under the off topic strand. They make for a thread of their own and have duly been given one.
I and others are finding it a little difficult to follow the serious stuff.

[The Form Student]

There you go Kev, you have been sanctioned! I think you expected this!

[Maorisidol]

Steve says, "No matter how big the track is, the leader and fence runners have the advantage.....you've just increased the chances of these horses filling the placings! Draw a bad barrier, and you have just about done your acceptance fee, and punting money!"

So whats new there Steve?
Hasn't this been the way at the trots since day dot, regardless of sprint lanes?
SL or no SL horses on the pegs of course will cover less ground, oh thats not fair!!!
Im takin my bat and ball and goin home, boo hoo!
Havent u read any of my posts in this discussion, seriously the way you are going on its as if 80% of races are won by the SL, and mate they r not...
And as i have just watched the QPC, considering you look for ways to beat the fav in your punting quests as you mentioned here, u must have been on For A Reason to beat the Fav and he did it by the good old SL, YAY!!!

[The Form Student]

So what's the point of having any other runners in the race............I did not say that, I said they already have to cover less ground.......so why add to their beautiful bludge run by giving them a sprint lane! If no sprint lane in QPC, Luke would of had to make a decision.....use his brain!........do I hold the lead and take my chance, or do I give up the lead and perhaps can't get out when I would like to? Stiff s..t for any other runners! The driver of Avonnova knew he had to get going because FAR showed last week it can sprint quick, and it did!

R8 Bendigo....leader & 2F, 2F did not need sprint lane...............1st & 2nd........You can't have your cake and eat it too..........racing is becoming farcical!

Wouldn't racing be fairer if when once in a while the leader gets a bit tired and holds up the fence runners, and the horses doing all the work out wide get the just rewards they deserve for a change...instead of being met with fresh runners up the inside, most of the time!

[Maorisidol]

So what's the point of having any other runners in the race............I did not say that, I said they already have to cover less ground.......so why add to their beautiful bludge run by giving them a sprint lane! If no sprint lane in QPC, Luke would of had to make a decision.....use his brain!........do I hold the lead and take my chance, or do I give up the lead and perhaps can't get out when I would like to? Stiff s..t for any other runners! The driver of Avonnova knew he had to get going because FAR showed last week it can sprint quick, and it did!

R8 Bendigo....leader & 2F, 2F did not need sprint lane...............1st & 2nd........You can't have your cake and eat it too..........racing is becoming farcical!

Wouldn't racing be fairer if when once in a while the leader gets a bit tired and holds up the fence runners, and the horses doing all the work out wide get the just rewards they deserve for a change...instead of being met with fresh runners up the inside, most of the time!

Most of the time.
Most of the time?????
In my post, number 113 in this thread i quoted 12 races around Australia that were a sample of any given day/night.

Seems to me you haven't read it or taken any notice, so let me summarise
12 races.
6 races, the sprint lane had ZERO effect on the outcome of the race! ZERO.
in 1 race, SL was used by FAV, but was not good enough to win, the horse 1/1 at $11 who covered MORE ground, Won!!!
next race, SL used by FAV, but was not good enough to win. The driver of the leader OUTDROVE the SprintLane. The SL was "tamed" by a good driver, its possible Steve!!!
next race, 3Pegs horse USL to get into 4th place, WOW, that rocked the betting...
next race, SL used by 1/1 horse, but was not good enough to win!
next race, SL used by 3Pegs $12 chance who COULD NOT catch the 2Pegs $52 chance!!!
next race, FAV leads, $8.70 barrier 8 horse USL and WINS!!!

So in that all be it VERY small example of yes, ONLY 12 races,
50% of the time the SL has zero effect,
and 2 times FAVS used it but still didn't win, IMPORTANTLY, PUNTERS saw their horse get out and HAVE A CHANCE!!! Isn't that important?
Once a driver outdrove the SL
So 5 times out of 6 that the SL was used the dreaded "run from heaven" didn't get them enough advantage to win.
1 Winner from 12, Steve, my personal opinion, your over reacting...
And seems like you will not be happy unless ALLtrots races are held in a straight line, cos by hell if some horses are on the pegs while some are 2 and 3 and 4 wide, well thats just too unfair!

So all those "fresh runners up the inside, MOST OF THE TIME!" Mate they're not there as much as you think, relax.

[Messenger]

But you would have to admit Ash - that the driving tactics of tonight's Gp 1 race totally evolved around the existence of a sprint lane. Like I said earlier - there will almost have to be a distinction of before and after sprint lanes in how we view the history of the sport

[The Form Student]

If as you say, they don't make any difference.....why have them?......so punters who back these runners feel they are getting a fair go? You don't seem to have any response for the runners that come wide (travelling extra distance....which you agree is the case in reality) regarding their chance of catching the leaders, and then a free run to a sprint lane runner......I know the answer........tough luck!

YOUR QUOTE: "IMPORTANTLY, PUNTERS saw their horse get out and HAVE A CHANCE!!! So what do you have to say about the other runners, providing a free benefit to a runner that has already had a bludge run??? Isn't that important?" Hard luck stories in races are plentiful, so you help one runner with the SL, what about the rest! Like any other runner you take your chance on getting a run!! It's really simple, keep racing as natural as it can be.........let circumstances sort themselves out!

[Messenger]

Most of the time.
Most of the time?????
In my post, number 113 in this thread i quoted 12 races around Australia that were a sample of any given day/night.

Seems to me you haven't read it or taken any notice, so let me summarise
12 races.
6 races, the sprint lane had ZERO effect on the outcome of the race! ZERO.
in 1 race, SL was used by FAV, but was not good enough to win, the horse 1/1 at $11 who covered MORE ground, Won!!!
next race, SL used by FAV, but was not good enough to win. The driver of the leader OUTDROVE the SprintLane. The SL was "tamed" by a good driver, its possible Steve!!!
next race, 3Pegs horse USL to get into 4th place, WOW, that rocked the betting...
next race, SL used by 1/1 horse, but was not good enough to win!
next race, SL used by 3Pegs $12 chance who COULD NOT catch the 2Pegs $52 chance!!!
next race, FAV leads, $8.70 barrier 8 horse USL and WINS!!!

So in that all be it VERY small example of yes, ONLY 12 races,
50% of the time the SL has zero effect,
and 2 times FAVS used it but still didn't win, IMPORTANTLY, PUNTERS saw their horse get out and HAVE A CHANCE!!! Isn't that important?
Once a driver outdrove the SL
So 5 times out of 6 that the SL was used the dreaded "run from heaven" didn't get them enough advantage to win.
1 Winner from 12, Steve, my personal opinion, your over reacting...
And seems like you will not be happy unless ALLtrots races are held in a straight line, cos by hell if some horses are on the pegs while some are 2 and 3 and 4 wide, well thats just too unfair!

So all those "fresh runners up the inside, MOST OF THE TIME!" Mate they're not there as much as you think, relax.

Your sample (and mine) are way too small at this stage Ash
I could take the 10 races from Bendigo tonight and tell you that trainers who's names begin with C or D win 70% of the races

[Maorisidol]

If as you say, they don't make any difference.....why have them?......so punters who back these runners feel they are getting a fair go? You don't seem to have any response for the runners that come wide (travelling extra distance....which you agree is the case in reality) regarding their chance of catching the leaders, and then a free run to a sprint lane runner......I know the answer........tough luck!

YOUR QUOTE: "IMPORTANTLY, PUNTERS saw their horse get out and HAVE A CHANCE!!! So what do you have to say about the other runners, providing a free benefit to a runner that has already had a bludge run??? Isn't that important?" Hard luck stories in races are plentiful, so you help one runner with the SL, what about the rest! Like any other runner you take your chance on getting a run!! It's really simple, keep racing as natural as it can be.........let circumstances sort themselves out!

Steve.
Please show me where i have said, "they don't make any difference"

I have never said that.
Of course they make a difference.

I have tried to show you and others, they are not as evil as you think.

MY POINT IS, they can have a POSITIVE effect when for example a FAV (or any horse) is "locked away" and wouldn't get a chance, but then a SL lets him out, and Steve, the damn horse NEVER ALWAYS WINS WHEN HE GETS THAT SL run mate!!!!!!! This is my point. You carry on like every race a SL is used that horse wins- IT DOES NOT ALWAYS WIN STEVEN!

And based on your "You don't seem to have any response for the runners that come wide", i thought that the "you won't be happy till all trots races are run in a straight line" idea may have fixed that up, obviously not.
i can tell you that in my last post i had actually written something which i then chose to delete as it may have come across as a smart a** comment/question.
It basically questions how long you have been watching the trots?
Have you not noticed that since day dot, trots in Australia have been raced on a round/oval shaped track?
Have you not noticed that 100 years BEFORE SL existed that it has been SO UNFAIR that horses on the rails/pegs COVER LESS GROUND?
So whats new about horses on the pegs covering less ground, mate this has happened since forever, have you never realised this before?
Have you not noticed that sometimes with NO SL a leader CAN drift up the track and that in 1952, before 1952 and after 1952, I'm sure this happened lots of times where the horse with the sit came up the inside and won?
Whats new here Steve? Nothin.
Horses have "been coming wide" since day dot steve. SL or no SL...
Thats OUR SPORT
Thats OUR TRACKS
And every owner trainer driver punter knows that barriers determine what kind of run you get, and depending on where you draw depends on how much ground you may need to cover on the little bloody circle they run around!
So driver skill, horse ability, fitness and luck can play a part to how you go on the day, but you know what, every horse gets another chance.
You may get a crap draw today, have to do too much work like any horse since 1952, and next start you may get barrier 2, get a cost run and get in the money.
Swings and roundabouts.
Its not as if 1 race determines that horses career.

[Maorisidol]

But you would have to admit Ash - that the driving tactics of tonight's Gp 1 race totally evolved around the existence of a sprint lane. Like I said earlier - there will almost have to be a distinction of before and after sprint lanes in how we view the history of the sport

No doubt Kev.

And wasn't it exciting to see if the Tank could do it?
Wasn't it building great tension during the first half lap to see if FAR got the lead, and then would he hand up if Avon came knocking?
Wasn't it building the tension to see what will happen when the hot Fav and the Tank would then go head to head down the straight?
Who will win?
Will Avon hang on and continue to dominate Qld racing and build his ever growing status as a Grand Circuit horse?
Will the Tank improve on his run of last week and show us his fitness has certainly improved and that he will again be a strong force on the Grand Circuit?
To me all of the above was great.
It was a race of tactics, cat and mouse, would Avon play into the hands of the confident Luke McC?
Yes he did,
2 great horses duelling, was a great finish

[The Form Student]

Steve.

It basically questions how long you have been watching the trots?
.

I have been going to the trots full-time since 1972, at age 15 years..........I used to catch the free bus from Fairfield Station up Hamilton Rd to the track........I used to ask someone going in to the track if they would pretend I was their son, so I could get in for free, I also used to catch the train to Campbelltown Station in my school holidays, and get the free bus to the track...........I saw Lou Cini, drive a trotter called "Midway Orrison" to victory by the length of the straight on my first adventure!..........I went to every meeting, trials and Ghymkhana's, 7 days a week, plus watch videos of meetings over and over again! The first thing I learn't about punting was how to lose......then to turn that into how to win............after a meeting, on the next day go back and watch replays to see what went right and wrong!

I will return to reply to your submission.....but for now I am in EUPHORIA over the "absolutely brilliant" drive by Brett Hutchings at Menangle (NO SPRINT LANE) just then.........did you watch him??....the skill put shivers up my spine!.......he led, the only danger was on his back, did he kick away and let "the only danger he had out"......no way brother!.......it puts intrigue into a race, not give-away runs...........absolute PERFECTION!!!!! Good on you Brett!!!

[teecee]

Im takin my bat and ball and goin home, boo hoo!
It basically questions how long you have been watching the trots?


The above two quotes among others that are creeping into this generally very good discussion bring no credit to the discussion nor those who post them.
They are not relevant to any discussions on this forum nor peoples opinions on various topics.
please keep your posts relevant to the discussion in an objective manner. They are not to become personal slanging matches between two parties with differing views.
please respect others' views even when they differ from your own.
If this thread continues to head down the path it has recently started on the discussion may unfortunately end.
Thank you

[The Form Student]

""MY POINT IS, they can have a POSITIVE effect when for example a FAV (or any horse) is "locked away" and wouldn't get a chance, but then a SL lets him out, and Steve, the damn horse NEVER ALWAYS WINS WHEN HE GETS THAT SL run mate!!!!!!! This is my point. You carry on like every race a SL is used that horse wins- IT DOES NOT ALWAYS WIN STEVEN!

If a favourite gets locked away, or any runner for that point........Who cares that's racing!......My point is that a horse starts in a race, and whether it get's the run it desires or not is played out during that race.....if you are 2F or 3F where there is a SL, you get a "lay down misere run" up the straight......it is not fair, because during that races certain things happen which are part & parcel contributors to the final crescendo of the pending result.......to have a SL in operation you have thrown this all away to allow the SL runners a free pass! To have an uncorrupted finish is paramount to the integrity of the race and the sport! If those runners on the fence get a run inside or outside, that's racing to!

And then you say, the SL runners don't always win!...........I am totally aware of that....I have watched a few races in my time! Your earlier stats show the SL is of little consequence........WELL WHY DO WE NEED IT?.......Let there be natural and pure racing on the track that is used for the entire race, without providing a benefit for the minority!

And based on your "You don't seem to have any response for the runners that come wide", i thought that the "you won't be happy till all trots races are run in a straight line" idea may have fixed that up, obviously not.

I have not said that in any shape or form, that is purely an infantile computation of the point being made......If I am a runner in a race doing work or making my run wider on the track around a turn....covering extra distance!.......DO you think it is fair that someone gets a free rails run at my expense up the straight...I don't think so!
If you want to take the bizarre and eccentric approach.......why doesn't the 3F runner get to go down to the SL say 50 metres before the 2F runner.....wouldn't that be somewhat fairer??.........And then to compensate the runners out wide have the finishing line angled back towards the outside fence, say 15%, making it shorter for them up the straight because they have travelled a further distance...........It has to be fair for all!

i can tell you that in my last post i had actually written something which i then chose to delete as it may have come across as a smart a** comment/question.""

I am quite happy to hear whatever comment you wish to make........

[Maorisidol]

So i have added to the races i watched previously.
i added all Globe derby and Melton from FRI nite.

We now have
28 races watched.
19 times the SL had ZERO EFFECT on the outcome of the race, thats about 68% it has ZERO.
4 Horses USL for 2nd. 2 were Favs did not win. So thats about 14% of races that the SL was used but the user still did not win
2 WINS to SL, thats a massive 7%

[Maorisidol]

Can anyone delve into history and give actual evidence or ideas on when SL's were ever conceived in Australia?
And more to the point why?
What brought about someone to think up the concept of a SL?
Where did it come from?
Why did it evolve as a possibility?
What caused it?

I can only imagine it came from someone or some push from some sector wanting change.
Was this change as a call to appeal to those who considered that the trots had the "perception" of too many horses not "getting a run".
Only 3-4 years ago i was talking to a Gallops trainer (who had a runner Cox Plate day yesterday) and he was certainly of that opinion. This is/was a perception that many have or have had of the trots over the last 30 years or even more, and i can only imagine this is at least one reason to bring in the SL.
Obviously in an attempt to try increase turnover.

[The Form Student]

So i have added to the races i watched previously.
i added all Globe derby and Melton from FRI nite.

We now have
28 races watched.
19 times the SL had ZERO EFFECT on the outcome of the race, thats about 68% it has ZERO.
4 Horses USL for 2nd. 2 were Favs did not win. So thats about 14% of races that the SL was used but the user still did not win
2 WINS to SL, thats a massive 7%

They are very interesting stats!..........it now seems that a SL is therefore not required, the perception by punters of their horse not getting a run, and being held up, is an urban myth!

No sprint lane at Albion Park may have produced a different winner last night, cool calculating Luke, may have had to make a decision to hold lead, and for Avonnova to then sit parked......who wins, I don't know! No sprint lane, does FAR get out in time to win, who knows, I don't! The tactics employed, did not allow for an out and out war of attrition to eventuate!

[brent_L]

No sprint lane at Albion Park may have produced a different winner last night, cool calculating Luke, may have had to make a decision to hold lead, and for Avonnova to then sit parked......who wins, I don't know! No sprint lane, does FAR get out in time to win, who knows, I don't! The tactics employed, did not allow for an out and out war of attrition to eventuate!
You are of course correct about there perhaps being a different winner of the QPC without the sprint lane, but IMO way off in how the race would have played out & what Luke would have had to do in it without that very SL......the reason he risked using up FAR early was because he knew there was a fantastic chance he lands on the back of the fav.....without SL scenario, there is no doubt he looks for a position in the running line and tries to dive bomb late. Basically what I'm getting at is all racing is not generic and tactics (sometimes risky) are definitely involved when trying to utilise the SL.

side note: Luke pulled their pants down AGAIN! When the field came out my speed map had him in the very position he ended up in and thought the early price of $3.40 was tight but spot on. Unfortunately I found myself listening to the interview he did pre-race stating FAR had never really shown that much early speed and it definitely sounded like the peg position wasn't an option......great dummy Luke, I certainly fell for it.

[The Form Student]

You are of course correct about there perhaps being a different winner of the QPC without the sprint lane, but IMO way off in how the race would have played out & what Luke would have had to do in it without that very SL......the reason he risked using up FAR early was because he knew there was a fantastic chance he lands on the back of the fav.....without SL scenario, there is no doubt he looks for a position in the running line and tries to dive bomb late. Basically what I'm getting at is all racing is not generic and tactics (sometimes risky) are definitely involved when trying to utilise the SL.

side note: Luke pulled their pants down AGAIN! When the field came out my speed map had him in the very position he ended up in and thought the early price of $3.40 was tight but spot on. Unfortunately I found myself listening to the interview he did pre-race stating FAR had never really shown that much early speed and it definitely sounded like the peg position wasn't an option......great dummy Luke, I certainly fell for it.

I think "Cool Hand Luke" got a bit of a shock when he came out on equal terms with the horses drawn to his outside!........He then saw his "stablemate" was the initial leader......who was going to stop him getting the lead? If FAR had not come out as good as he did, the stablemate, Our Hi Jinx would have only been giving up the lead to Avonnova, it may have then been the winner, up the SL! Abettorpunt was a brave run......when he draws a barrier, watch out!

[trish]

. Unfortunately I found myself listening to the interview he did pre-race stating FAR had never really shown that much early speed and it definitely sounded like the peg position wasn't an option......great dummy Luke, I certainly fell for it.[/QUOTE]


And this that I read.....
.https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/478154473286545408/LAUMjFI9_normal.jpeg Chris Barsby @BarsbyChris · Oct 22 (https://twitter.com/BarsbyChris/status/525155934247477248)
Qld harness form analyst @MickPolster (https://twitter.com/MickPolster) doesn't subscribe to theory of For A Reason leading out then handing over to Avonnova in Gr.1 QPC

[arlington]

http://www.harnessmediacentre.com.au/trotstv/replays/16168
I guess Ashlee didn't mind KerryAnn using the SL. $500 prize money difference to the owners, maybe they boxed the Tri.

[The Form Student]

http://www.harnessmediacentre.com.au/trotstv/replays/16168
I guess Ashlee didn't mind KerryAnn using the SL. $500 prize money difference to the owners, maybe they boxed the Tri.

Ashlee got a bit of shock!...did you see how fast she spun her head to the left to see who it was!

[mightymo]

. Unfortunately I found myself listening to the interview he did pre-race stating FAR had never really shown that much early speed and it definitely sounded like the peg position wasn't an option......great dummy Luke, I certainly fell for it.


And this that I read.....
.https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/478154473286545408/LAUMjFI9_normal.jpeg Chris Barsby @BarsbyChris · Oct 22 (https://twitter.com/BarsbyChris/status/525155934247477248)
Qld harness form analyst @MickPolster (https://twitter.com/MickPolster) doesn't subscribe to theory of For A Reason leading out then handing over to Avonnova in Gr.1 QPC[/QUOTE]

When the fields came out on Tuesday, I said on Twitter that FAR had to be used off the gate to try and get to the pegs first. If he did,I thought he would win. if he didnt get there, I didnt think he could win

[HaroldParker]

Has there ever been a more scripted G1 in the history of Harness Racing ?

The only threat to the script was if Grant Dixon grew a pair during the week ... his cameo appearance was short lived, no surprise there.

Not only was the 1 (Todd) always handing up to 3 (Luke) but the 6 (John) wouldn't have worked forward from the wide gate unless he knew that the 1 was handing up to the 3 who in turn was handing up to the 5.

and there's a push for a Sprint Lane @ Menangle ?

Say it ain't so !!!

[HaroldParker]

Worst racing in Australia - QLD, SA and VIC = Virtually all Sprint Lane.

Best racing in Australia - WA and NSW = limited Sprint Lane.

The argument for them is completely flawed. The Sprint Lane @ Bathurst should be removed immediately and any thought of one at Menangle should be knocked on the head.

[The Form Student]

I'm with you Bob, it will be the biggest mistake they ever make, no-one can bet with any certainty on a race............a retrograde disaster! They'll be putting a monkey on their back soon to ride them home!

[trish]

And I'm with everyone that doesn't want sprint lanes in NSW. Bad idea, much rather see a race for what it is or supposed to be. I hate seeing horses do a ton
of work , only to be knocked off by a horse sitting pretty on the fence then using the sprint lane to win.
I reckon the 7% is 7% to many sprint lanes wins.
Sprint lanes were put in to try & increase TAB turnover & where has the TAB turnover gone..............due south!!!

The sprint lane should rise uphill at 30 degrees & see who wants to take it then.

[Race For Fun]

The sprint lane should rise uphill at 30 degrees & see who wants to take it then.

Now that a good idea Trish!
Should keep everyone happy, the best of both worlds.

[brent_L]

Has there ever been a more scripted G1 in the history of Harness Racing ?
Well of course there has......winner was 3/1......he would have been a lot shorter if it was so scripted.

[brent_L]

Worst racing in Australia - QLD, SA and VIC = Virtually all Sprint Lane.

Best racing in Australia - WA and NSW = limited Sprint Lane.

The argument for them is completely flawed. The Sprint Lane @ Bathurst should be removed immediately and any thought of one at Menangle should be knocked on the head.
Each to their own Bob. I for one ain't a fan of watching 10 mile races on a program in NSW and Gloucester Park isn't so much racing as it is lucky barrier dip......in exactly the same field a horse drawn 1 one week will start 2/1, drawn 12 the following week will be 30/1. Nowhere else in the country does this happen. As I said, each to their own.

[Messenger]

Well of course there has......winner was 3/1......he would have been a lot shorter if it was so scripted.

To be fair Brent, he is only saying it was scripted that Avon would go to the lead and FAR would be on his back - he is not saying that it was a given that FAR would sprint over Avon

[brent_L]

To be fair Brent, he is only saying it was scripted that Avon would go to the lead and FAR would be on his back - he is not saying that it was a given that FAR would sprint over Avon
Kev, if that was the way that the majority of people had the race playing out FAR would have started favourite. The reason he started 3/1 is because the consensus was he wasn't going to be behind the leader.....hence my opinion there has been more 'scripted' affairs in the past. Cheers

[The Form Student]

Each to their own Bob. I for one ain't a fan of watching 10 mile races on a program in NSW and Gloucester Park isn't so much racing as it is lucky barrier dip......in exactly the same field a horse drawn 1 one week will start 2/1, drawn 12 the following week will be 30/1. Nowhere else in the country does this happen. As I said, each to their own.

How does the Sprint Lane help the horses drawn barrier 12 as you say, or out wide on the front, or outside of the back row???............It doesn't, does it!!!!..........the sprint lane hinders their chances and creates shorter prices for those drawn to get that run!

[Richard prior]

Steve, Read Brent's comment again mate, I think he's talking about the fluctuations in a price of a horse from 1 week to another due to it's barrier draw.

[brent_L]

Spot on Rich.
Off topic anyhow....just thought I'd throw in my two bobs worth re favourite joints to bet/watch.

[Toohard]

The most winners at Melton last season came from barrier 6. Don't think many of them would have used sprint lane.

Of course can be huge advantage with right horse and race run right way.

The sprint lane at Melton doesn't start until well into straight. If there are horses out wide with their momentum up and you're in the sprint lane behind a leader that's stopping then you don't have great chance of matching them in run to finish.

Also seen many take a while to 'work out' sprint lane when it comes up. Guess horses are trained to pass on the outside of horses. You see some 'hesitate' to go in there at first. By time they get there and get going race over.

[The Form Student]

Steve, Read Brent's comment again mate, I think he's talking about the fluctuations in a price of a horse from 1 week to another due to it's barrier draw.

What I am saying is that the horse drawn 12 the next week would probably be even longer if there was a sprint lane at Gloucester Park, how is the sprint lane going to help these horses drawn badly, wherever it is, the only hope you have is to make a run during the race, or join or start the 3 wide brigade, or sit back and hope they go crazy up front! With a sprint lane drivers are giving up the lead to easily, because they can take the cop out run later up the sprint lane, at least if it is a competitive start, there may be a bit more "argey bargey" to get the lead, and hopefully give the others some chance to get into the race later! I do know one thing in WA there a lot more mid race moves, and a lot stronger challenges for the lead!

I am well aware of the 1,8,9, or 2,1,8 trifecta's at Gloucester Park, the sprint lane only helps the "minority", and as a result hinders the chance of the "majority".....how can that be good "cricket"?

Look at Beautide, his 2 runs back from a spell, he had to do some work....but the leader and the horse behind had him beat with the speed of the race.....the 2F wasn't good enough to beat the leader, so the sprint lane would not have helped it, but the sheer speed put paid to Beautide's chances! James Rattray openly admitted, that his horse was getting beaten by the barrier draw! Unfortunately, the barrier draw has a big impact on a race, giving those that have already had their luck with a good barrier draw an additional free sprint lane run, is not the answer! Sometimes we just have to accept that this is the way things will be, but giving a free ride to 1 or 2 runners is not the long term answer!

[Messenger]

The most winners at Melton last season came from barrier 6. Don't think many of them would have used sprint lane.

Of course can be huge advantage with right horse and race run right way.

The sprint lane at Melton doesn't start until well into straight. If there are horses out wide with their momentum up and you're in the sprint lane behind a leader that's stopping then you don't have great chance of matching them in run to finish.

Also seen many take a while to 'work out' sprint lane when it comes up. Guess horses are trained to pass on the outside of horses. You see some 'hesitate' to go in there at first. By time they get there and get going race over.

Paul, is there somewhere that one can look up those stats?
I am taking stats this season but only on Metro mobile pacers races with at least 8 runners and so far with a sample of only 27, the barriers 6 & 7 are leading with 5 winners each with only 1 each coming from a fence postion (I suppose 1/5 20% is still somewhat significant)

[Messenger]

Kev, if that was the way that the majority of people had the race playing out FAR would have started favourite. The reason he started 3/1 is because the consensus was he wasn't going to be behind the leader.....hence my opinion there has been more 'scripted' affairs in the past. Cheers
Yeah you're right - that follows

[brent_L]

Paul & Kev, you've knocked me for six with those winning barrier stats! I, like Kev would love to take a look at those figures Paul??
Kev, it shouldn't take long for u to tell us what the average price was of those 10 winners from gates 6 & 7.......surely longer than the 2/1 in probability they have shown up at hey?

[Messenger]

I was doing these stats with some thought of personally profiting from my work - just can't keep a secret can I lol

[Messenger]

When I was following my failed Blackbooker last Thursday, Laura Crossland on Smo in the 1x1 showed the way to beat the sprint lane advantage. Admittedly the Lead and Death were vulnerable and it was a very small field (Small fields is something I have raised before - as an alternative with sprint lane tracks but I think I am the only one who liked the idea LOL) but by going early Smo negated the Sprint Lane which looked odds on to win

http://www.harness.org.au/meeting-results.cfm?mc=QY231014&ms=vic#QYC23101401

[Richard prior]

Off topic a touch here Kev but noticed Laura was fined, WTF??? I've watched the replay a few times and can't see where she's done anything wrong.

[Messenger]

Laura Crossland driver of Smo NZ was fined $200 under rule 156(2) for applying the whip to her drive on a number of occasions with a free hand prior to the designated 200m mark and with more than a wrist and elbow flicking motion over the concluding stages of the race.

http://www.harness.org.au/stewards-reports-detail.cfm?mc=QY231014&fromstate=vic

[Big K]

Well its a great thread with plenty of for's and against.A mate of mine is a pro punter and he bets on GP,he doesn't want the size of the track to alter nor does he want a sprint lane.He says he can quite confidently bet on the outcome knowing that even if his horse settles towards the rear it will get carted into the race by its mate.Have seen plenty of horses at GP chewing on the bit hoping to get a crack at them as the leader struggles and the swoopers join in.For me its a crime to see horses hard held up the straight and not get the opportunity to improve their position.Then hear my other mates say "Ya cant get a run for your money" and then they bet like hell on the gallops.As a stakeholder in the industry I want more people to bet on the Trots of course..and sprint lanes may help with this as at the tab people do ask if there is a sprint lane at such n such a place.Well if sprint lanes are no good then whats the answer to get more betting turnover?? At a recent industry meeting I put forward a suggestion to race on the 1000mt straight at the Pinjarra gallops track..you know trying to be innovative,no horses getting locked in and such,a new dimension..but nearly got laughed out of the joint.We need to be trying as many things as we can to get this sport back into the main frame.Watched the clip from Ireland with pacers being ridden,allbeit on bitumen roads(pretty crazy)..I watched some old footage as well of when ridden and driven horses raced each other..and thought is it still possible?? I think we need to try these things and get creative for this very vesitile sport.Just some thoughts thats all.

[Messenger]

Laura Crossland driver of Smo NZ was fined $200 under rule 156(2) for applying the whip to her drive on a number of occasions with a free hand prior to the designated 200m mark and with more than a wrist and elbow flicking motion over the concluding stages of the race.

http://www.harness.org.au/stewards-reports-detail.cfm?mc=QY231014&fromstate=vic
Heard it this time - he said Darryl Douglas found his own sprint lane

[Richard prior]

Laura Crossland driver of Smo NZ was fined $200 under rule 156(2) for applying the whip to her drive on a number of occasions with a free hand prior to the designated 200m mark and with more than a wrist and elbow flicking motion over the concluding stages of the race.

http://www.harness.org.au/stewards-reports-detail.cfm?mc=QY231014&fromstate=vic

Thanks Kev, Wayne told me the exact same a bit earlier, I definitley need study the rule book, I'll get Monty and Wayne to give me some tuition.

[The Form Student]

Heard it this time - he said Darryl Douglas found his own sprint lane

You could be going senile also!........you put it on the wrong thread! "LOL" - :D

[Messenger]

Well its a great thread with plenty of for's and against.A mate of mine is a pro punter and he bets on GP,he doesn't want the size of the track to alter nor does he want a sprint lane.He says he can quite confidently bet on the outcome knowing that even if his horse settles towards the rear it will get carted into the race by its mate.Have seen plenty of horses at GP chewing on the bit hoping to get a crack at them as the leader struggles and the swoopers join in.For me its a crime to see horses hard held up the straight and not get the opportunity to improve their position.Then hear my other mates say "Ya cant get a run for your money" and then they bet like hell on the gallops.As a stakeholder in the industry I want more people to bet on the Trots of course..and sprint lanes may help with this as at the tab people do ask if there is a sprint lane at such n such a place.Well if sprint lanes are no good then whats the answer to get more betting turnover?? At a recent industry meeting I put forward a suggestion to race on the 1000mt straight at the Pinjarra gallops track..you know trying to be innovative,no horses getting locked in and such,a new dimension..but nearly got laughed out of the joint.We need to be trying as many things as we can to get this sport back into the main frame.Watched the clip from Ireland with pacers being ridden,allbeit on bitumen roads(pretty crazy)..I watched some old footage as well of when ridden and driven horses raced each other..and thought is it still possible?? I think we need to try these things and get creative for this very vesitile sport.Just some thoughts thats all.

Totally agree Kevin - we have to consider everything
I wouldn't rule out racing on big grass gallops tracks
As much as I love an amphitheatre type track (and have taken a pot shot at Horsham for being too distant) - the fact is that there are very few attending the races anyway so it comes down to what would look best on TV.
When I have attended big gallops meetings I sometimes look around the dining rooms etc and half the people are not even watching the races so if we were to make our racing an entertainment event and have people attend, the size of the track probably does not matter (except to crazies like me). We could become a binocular/TV monitor sport until the home str
The horses look 100% better on camera on the green grass and I remember the MV grass races where nobody could complain about not getting a run. I have not tuned into any NZ grass racing but will have to
Of course the obsession with MR' s would be a problem

Whatever we go with - even double sprint lanes, the camera work has to be much better - more exciting

[Messenger]

You could be going senile also!........you put it on the wrong thread! "LOL" - :D

I reckon you could be right - second time I have done it this week!

[Toohard]

Paul & Kev, you've knocked me for six with those winning barrier stats! I, like Kev would love to take a look at those figures Paul??
Kev, it shouldn't take long for u to tell us what the average price was of those 10 winners from gates 6 & 7.......surely longer than the 2/1 in probability they have shown up at hey?

Gday Brent. Will try find out where stats come from. I only know coz they have a question in the racebook every week. That was the question early in new season and answer took a few by surprise.

[Messenger]

Gday Brent. Will try find out where stats come from. I only know coz they have a question in the racebook every week. That was the question early in new season and answer took a few by surprise.

Paul, I remember in the old days the racebook used to have a barrier stats table

[The Form Student]

Yes, Bathurst R1, sprint lane gets the cash! great drive, straight up the inside........never spent a zac!

[Big K]

Yes, Bathurst R1, sprint lane gets the cash! great drive, straight up the inside........never spent a zac!

And if you backed it..Glory Days!!

[The Form Student]

You have no choice but to throw them in when they are drawn there! I have not seen a race yet where the fence runners could not get a run!

[The Form Student]

BATHURST - SPRINT LANE ON TRIAL! Summary of last nights races!

R1 - Horse 2F sprint lanes to beat leader. Without sprint lane, may not have won.
R2 - Leader collapsed, 2F got off fence @ about 500M, just plodded for 3rd.
R3 - Leader & 2F got beat nearly 30M.
R4 - Leader won, 2F dropped out.
R5 - Leader tiring before the turn, 2F off fence at 400M, went 4 wide in STR to win! DID not wait for sprint lane!
R6 - Leader ran 2nd, 2F dropped out.
R7 - Leader won, 2F 2nd, 1st half nearly 66secs, then sprinted last QTR, 2F used sprint lane but had every chance....sprint lane not required.
R8 - Leader won, 2F every chance, ran 3rd beaten 7 metres, horse 1-2 dived to SL at turn to run 2nd!
R9 - leader won, 2F every chance beaten 6 metres.

"My thought" on meeting....Sprint Lane definitely not required!

[Mighty Atom]

Don't have a problem with sprint lanes on a big track in fact I'd like to see a sprint lane at Menangle it would provide more maneuverability for horses coming from the back in the field but definitely a front runners nightmare. Sprint lanes at small tracks like Gloucester Park would just be too much of an advantage.

[The Form Student]

Don't have a problem with sprint lanes on a big track in fact I'd like to see a sprint lane at Menangle it would provide more maneuverability for horses coming from the back in the field but definitely a front runners nightmare. Sprint lanes at small tracks like Gloucester Park would just be too much of an advantage.

Are you serious?.......if any track needs a SL it is Gloucester Park!.......the aim of the SL is for the fence runners to get a run instead of going to the line hard-held! At Menangle the straight is 350 metres long, and you can come 10 wide if you want to, what more manoeuvring room do you want??

[Mighty Atom]

Are you serious?.......if any track needs a SL it is Gloucester Park!.......the aim of the SL is for the fence runners to get a run instead of going to the line hard-held! At Menangle the straight is 350 metres long, and you can come 10 wide if you want to, what more manoeuvring room do you want??

Talking about maneuverability at Menangle watch I'm Victorious in 2013 Chariots blocked for a run all the way up the straight. Just because it's a 350 metre straight doesn't mean every horse gets a clear run. I think GP would have a higher proportion of winners coming from the sprint lane than any other track and many would say that's an unfair advantage.

[Messenger]

Talking about maneuverability at Menangle watch I'm Victorious in 2013 Chariots blocked for a run all the way up the straight. Just because it's a 350 metre straight doesn't mean every horse gets a clear run. I think GP would have a higher proportion of winners coming from the sprint lane than any other track and many would say that's an unfair advantage.

It would then follow Rod, if one belongs to the SL-more horses should get a shot camp, that GP needs a SL more than anybody

[The Form Student]

For a horse drawn barrier 8, was not on the fence during the run, gets held up for a run in the straight, I would say you need to look at your driver!...maybe he was not familiar in how to drive at Menangle...........or he was just plain unlucky not to get a run............as I have said countless times already, there will be hard luck stories in every race........let that happen!.....it will sort out the good drivers from the bad, the right horse in the right place..........and old lady luck!
If Victorious would have got a split through the middle and won.........I think I would have heard you cheering from WA............How would you feel if that split came through the middle, or he went 4 & 5 deep to get beat a nose by a horse struggling up the SL and wins!............There should be no free rides!

[The Form Student]

[QUOTE=brent_L;37576]The consensus is that wagering may be being affected by this and if that is ever proved 100% to be the case things MUST change, even if it upsets people who don't like the sprint lane.


Bathurst is supposedly on trial!.......on trial for what?......from the stats shown from races with SL's.....the sprint lane serves no purpose............until someone shows me some positive evidence where things are improved by a SL, and I don't mean by perception..........then it not needed! Yes, if it is ever proved otherwise. I am happy to compromise on the sprint lane..........YES! YES! YES!.........make it a standard SL on every track of 100 metres maximum............let the driver make a proper choice as to whether he should persist with staying on the fence or look for an out.....not a free ride!

[The Form Student]

You say that, when I have just compromised on "accepting the sprint lane".......what more can I do?? You obviously didn't fully read my post!
But now in saying that..........please provide the basis on which a sprint lane is necessary, or is useful, besides "the perception by punters of not getting a run, and it may improve turnover"....when that is not proven either?
I have tried to discuss the for and against arguments, but haven't heard a decent one for!
Harness Racing will just become the "novelty event" it is turning into......at the gallops, there are set weights and stricter rules than harness racing.....people have more faith in it!.......Please tell me why, other than other worn out arguments above, how a SL is fair, and why it does not disadvantage other runners in a race?
I want harness racing to not only survive, but thrive....but my thought is the sprint lane is a retrograde step.......the 2F & 3F horses, have their position in the race for various reasons.....you cannot give them an advantage over other runners.....if they can get a run....then so be it! In the end these same punters will walk away as they are beaten for various reasons other than the horse or drivers ability?

[Messenger]

I begrudgingly accept that perception can be as important as reality but wonder if we are barking up the wrong tree when the HRV strategic plan states:

An undesirable perception of Harness Racing with the latest extensive research (Colmar Brunton 2009) revealing that Harness Racing is viewed as:
- old and dated
- races are too long
- a boring sport
- an ageing demographic
- a predominantly male sport
- high number of short priced favourites

There is no mention of 'not getting a run' and as we all know the doggies can be 'knock em down derbies' but the punters still plonk it on

ps Has there been any credible research to show that sprint lanes increase turnover?

[Big K]

I begrudgingly accept that perception can be as important as reality but wonder if we are barking up the wrong tree when the HRV strategic plan states:

An undesirable perception of Harness Racing with the latest extensive research (Colmar Brunton 2009) revealing that Harness Racing is viewed as:
- old and dated
- races are too long
- a boring sport
- an ageing demographic
- a predominantly male sport
- high number of short priced favourites

There is no mention of 'not getting a run' and as we all know the doggies can be 'knock em down derbies' but the punters still plonk it on

ps Has there been any credible research to show that sprint lanes increase turnover?

Fairly accurate I would say..except I think there are more women involved than what is suggested.So when my punting mates who just love to bet on the gallops and to a lesser extent dogs(they like the dogs because there is no human involvement in the race and its fast and furious)ask me for for a winner at the trots they mostly ask if there is a spint lane at that meeting as well.Why? because of the perception that you wont get a run for your money.Our prizemoney..the whole industry survives on punters wanting to bet on the product..and seeing horses held up does the sport no favours at all.I love watching the trots live..its just brilliant,I hate going to the gallops because is as boring as hell..and the horses are too far away,unless you can find a filly at the bar.But on tv..the gallops look sensational!!and the trots look slow ..take too long in this fast paced world and can be considered boring by people who dont know or dont want to know how great the sport really is.Sprint lanes help the sport in my opinion..but I think we need to expand more on all other concepts possible to bring the sport back to popularity...if its possible.

[The Form Student]

Fairly accurate I would say..except I think there are more women involved than what is suggested.So when my punting mates who just love to bet on the gallops and to a lesser extent dogs(they like the dogs because there is no human involvement in the race and its fast and furious)ask me for for a winner at the trots they mostly ask if there is a spint lane at that meeting as well.Why? because of the perception that you wont get a run for your money.Our prizemoney..the whole industry survives on punters wanting to bet on the product..and seeing horses held up does the sport no favours at all.I love watching the trots live..its just brilliant,I hate going to the gallops because is as boring as hell..and the horses are too far away,unless you can find a filly at the bar.But on tv..the gallops look sensational!!and the trots look slow ..take too long in this fast paced world and can be considered boring by people who dont know or dont want to know how great the sport really is.Sprint lanes help the sport in my opinion..but I think we need to expand more on all other concepts possible to bring the sport back to popularity...if its possible.

Obviously, they don't intend to back the horse drawn on the outside of the 2nd row (which would be highly unlikely to take advantage of a SL), therefore, they must be looking to back a runner that can make use of the SL, and the additional benefits that come with it!

[Messenger]

Fairly accurate I would say..except I think there are more women involved than what is suggested.So when my punting mates who just love to bet on the gallops and to a lesser extent dogs(they like the dogs because there is no human involvement in the race and its fast and furious)ask me for for a winner at the trots they mostly ask if there is a spint lane at that meeting as well.Why? because of the perception that you wont get a run for your money.Our prizemoney..the whole industry survives on punters wanting to bet on the product..and seeing horses held up does the sport no favours at all.I love watching the trots live..its just brilliant,I hate going to the gallops because is as boring as hell..and the horses are too far away,unless you can find a filly at the bar.But on tv..the gallops look sensational!!and the trots look slow ..take too long in this fast paced world and can be considered boring by people who dont know or dont want to know how great the sport really is.Sprint lanes help the sport in my opinion..but I think we need to expand more on all other concepts possible to bring the sport back to popularity...if its possible.

Hi Kev, the report is now 5yrs old and I think the number of women participants has increased significantly in that time

[aussiebreno]

http://www.harness.org.au/hra/pdfs/WWP%20Report%20-%20FINAL-301014.pdf

One of key reasons people punt, including pros, is consistent track bias. With sprint lanes at a track it provides this consistency. Without sprint lanes there is no consistency in getting a run or not.

Steve you have also turned a blind eye to the argument PBD horses actually get use of the advantage of the draw.

Another concern of punters is the leader bias. Does the sprint lane not hamper that leader bias?

[Messenger]

If pros like consistency surely they like leader bias?

[The Form Student]

[QUOTE=aussiebreno;37624]http://www.harness.org.au/hra/pdfs/WWP%20Report%20-%20FINAL-301014.pdf

One of key reasons people punt, including pros, is consistent track bias. With sprint lanes at a track it provides this consistency. Without sprint lanes there is no consistency in getting a run or not.

How does a sprint lane negate track bias? Track bias is where the track has been moved, a running rail put out across the normal track configuration, the weather conditions may promote a leader bias or swoopers bias as the track is not even under foot! If it's a prefect day, the sun is shining, the drivers have polished their helmets.....How does the sprint lane help all runners with getting a clear run? You have looked after the horse 2F & 3F, but what have you done for the rest?..........YILCH!.....you have now made it an uneven contest! I am still waiting for just one decent suggestion as to how you are going to compensate the other runners in a race, that don't have the luxury of the SL, to get a clear run?? Please tell me before I die from anticipation! OK, now you have the SL, and your 2F sprinter gets it's clear run along it...........Yahoo, how good is that!.......now, what about the runner drawn barrier10 for instance, that, fails to get a clear run (NCRVS), and this is verified by the stewards....I hope your with me to this point!......Are you prepared to give the punters that backed this horse a refund of their money???? Would not this be fair using your previous analogy of consistency!
Steve you have also turned a blind eye to the argument PBD horses actually get use of the advantage of the draw.

The barrier draw is a completely different argument.........it does not matter what the barrier draw is, it is where runners end up after the start.....if you can't take advantage of the barrier what does it matter?.....if you decide to be 2F.....don't expect any special treatment, pull back out of the ways, stay off the fence in the first place!

Another concern of punters is the leader bias. Does the sprint lane not hamper that leader bias?[/QUOTE

Leader bias will always be there, the SL will only make leader bias even greater........Why, the psychology of the human mind!....the driver of the leaders will work out that if you only go slow, you will have the maximum energy levels available to run down the straight and hold off the SL'ers.....it will make the racing a joke! You only have to look at Redcliffe to see how the SL has ruined trotting.......the tracks have become larger, straights are longer, the opportunity to beat leaders has improved out of site! If a jockey at the gallops holds another runner in, he is proclaimed a "genius", The Messiah.........at the trots, that's not fair!

Once again....can someone show me where a sprint lane enhances the chances of all runners in a race???

[aussiebreno]

http://wwwdelivery.superstock.com/WI/223/1598/PreviewComp/SuperStock_1598R-9991951.jpg

[The Form Student]

I therefore "assume"......you don't have an answer?

[aussiebreno]

I therefore "assume"......you don't have an answer?
Nothing that hasn't been said before in 20 pages or that you would see as worthwhile.

http://borderlessnewsandviews.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/circles.jpg

[Maorisidol]

I therefore "assume"......you don't have an answer?

Steve,
the SL CANNOT enhance the chance of ALL runners, of course that is impossible.
fact is it is provided in my opinion as stated somewhere before to ALLEVIATE the "perception" of YOUR mates who ask if theres a SL.
So those tracks who alleviate that, get your buddies $$$, they seemingly don't bet, or as much on NON SL tracks because they PERCEIVE theres a chance they may not get a run.
hence, SL's are doing their job in getting exactly your mates to bet rather than not to bet.
no, its not "fair" to some others in the race, and what can we do about those coming wide to appease them of this? same thing you can do to appease them at tracks with no SL. Nuthin!
but,
"perception" has maybe worked its magic on your mates where SL's exist but regardless of SL, we can't compensate those drawn wide.
SL's aren't perfect
Not having SL's isn't perfect.
the world is not perfect

[Messenger]

Forget I am posting this, for Ash's is probably a good post to finish up on - note he highlighted 'perception' which can sadly be as important as facts. Now back to the Wagering report to see if it mentions SL's even if it did not survey the average punter

[Richard prior]

Hahahahaha, Good one Breno

[The Form Student]

Steve,
the SL CANNOT enhance the chance of ALL runners, of course that is impossible.
fact is it is provided in my opinion as stated somewhere before to ALLEVIATE the "perception" of YOUR mates who ask if theres a SL.
So those tracks who alleviate that, get your buddies $$$, they seemingly don't bet, or as much on NON SL tracks because they PERCEIVE theres a chance they may not get a run.
hence, SL's are doing their job in getting exactly your mates to bet rather than not to bet.
no, its not "fair" to some others in the race, and what can we do about those coming wide to appease them of this? same thing you can do to appease them at tracks with no SL. Nuthin!
but,
"perception" has maybe worked its magic on your mates where SL's exist but regardless of SL, we can't compensate those drawn wide.
SL's aren't perfect
Not having SL's isn't perfect.
the world is not perfect

I am glad that it is finally acknowledged that a SL cannot help everybody! If we suppose to trial a SL are we serious, and what are we trying to achieve.....so it appears if 1 horse gets held up the punters are upset! To appease all, any SL should only be 100 metres long, so that drivers need to consider whether they wait for the run, or take the run on the outside if it presents itself.....driver ability.....don't just make it a lay down misere.......a 350 metre SL at Menangle....who wants to lead?

[The Form Student]

Nothing that hasn't been said before in 20 pages or that you would see as worthwhile.

http://borderlessnewsandviews.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/circles.jpg

I have plenty more to contribute, unfortunately I can't get a response passed Point No.1!

[Chariots]

Ballarat does not have a sprint lane and I have been led to believe that it is the highest turnover provincial track in Victoria.

If this can be confirmed it does point to sprint lanes being all about perception rather than reality particularly where turnover is concerned.

[The Form Student]

Forget I am posting this, for Ash's is probably a good post to finish up on - note he highlighted 'perception' which can sadly be as important as facts. Now back to the Wagering report to see if it mentions SL's even if it did not survey the average punter

There was barely a "squeak" in the report about sprint lanes!

[aussiebreno]

Ballarat does not have a sprint lane and I have been led to believe that it is the highest turnover provincial track in Victoria.

If this can be confirmed it does point to sprint lanes being all about perception rather than reality particularly where turnover is concerned.
Highest turnover based on what? Highest gross, highest per race, per meeting?

Not so sure it would be sprint lane related or just when they race.
Ballarat probably has more Fri/Sat nights than any other country clubs, and when they do race midweek it still seems to be under lights. I would hazard a guess these time-slots get more punting dollars than daytime midweek time-slots regardless of tracks involved?

[aussiebreno]

Sophies Ideal, what a great advertisement for the sprint lane!

[Richard prior]

Yes and I know a couple of keen punters from around Avenel way who would have had a nice bit of coin on her at those odds, I can hear them cheering from here.

[Toohard]

Couple things about sprint lane from last nights racing.


Sprint lane gave 2 extra horses a chance in mares race. One behind leader and as it turned out one 4 back the fence who won the race. Also make the racing more interesting to watch. G. Lang draw behind the 1 Blazeaway Macray, a noted quick beginner. Follow away, sit back and get sprint lane? Or does Blazeaway Macray hand up and put him 3 fence? Turns out he end up 3 fence. We thought the 1 would hand up. Tandias Bromac was always going to go forward and the 1 didn't hand up to it a few starts back and got beat.


Then coming off back, does he sit there and hope for a run to come or does he come out and around? Came out and around (as he should have on that horse). Had he stayed there wins. BUT had he stayed there and no run comes would have copped heaps criticism. Leaves run for winner up the inside (Don't think that counts as a sprint lane winner!).


On another point re this race. COT (silly rule IMO). Blazeaway Macray not hand up a few starts back. Hands up last night. No COT. Why should they? Silly rule and would have changed the whole race had they come out and said they would hand up. Why give away your tactics? All are trying to win the race so why tell everyone what you are going to do and make the race more predictable? Someone said on another thread the other day "Harness racing boring". COT rule makes it more boring!


All those variables in that race because of sprint lane. Made for a great race to watch.




Also FFA race. Cold Major draw behind 1. 1 also going to be leader. Looked like Cold Major sit on it's back and use sprint lane and win race. But brilliant drive by Nathan Jack on Jadahson. Saw what happening, got it revved up coming off back. Pinch lead on straightening. By time sprint lane come up for Cold Major who now behind a tiring leader, too late. Sprint lane no advantage to Cold Major. The opposite in fact. Again great race to watch.

[Toohard]

Gday Brent. Will try find out where stats come from. I only know coz they have a question in the racebook every week. That was the question early in new season and answer took a few by surprise.


Gday Brent. I asked around last night and no one knew where to find the info. Lukes got 4 days off school so will set him a 'task' and post results when he's done. Last nights winning barriers... 7 5 4 6 9 4 13 2 5 4.

[Messenger]

Gday Brent. I asked around last night and no one knew where to find the info. Lukes got 4 days off school so will set him a 'task' and post results when he's done. Last nights winning barriers... 7 5 4 6 9 4 13 2 5 4.

I have done barrier stats this season Paul but restricted it to Mobile Pacer Metro class races with at least 8 starters (and noted their bell posn)

I have however done Bell posn stats for all Melton races (at a Metro meeting)

[Messenger]

You do not get much more boring than the 2 sprint lane wins by the favs in the first two races at Shep tonight - bloody terrible as a spectacle as the results were never in doubt and yet it would be questionable if either would have won without the spr lane

[NormanS]

Newcastle Race 5 14-11 (video replay: http://www.harnessmediacentre.com.au/trotstv/replays/16618 )
a few quick points -
1/ I'm not a spint lane fan but understand why the punters would have liked a sprint lane at Newcastle.
2/ I own the horse that would have benefited.
3/ Without the sprint lane, the driver did the right thing by the horse (although potentially the wrong thing by the punter) - Driving the fav, led, tried to hold, handed up, tried to get off the pegs but never had the outside horse in exactly the right spot, didn't knock anyone over trying for a run or pushing out wrong, horse finished on the bit and I as an owner still have a horse and say "well there's always next week". AND I say that happens in racing.
4/ With SkyRacings server problems last night I only got to listen to the call (I'm In Far North QLD) - Please Kevin Thompson When the horse finishes on the helmet of the driver finishing 3rd through no clear run he is NOT tailed off. Here I was hoping nothing had gone wrong with my horse.

[Toohard]

Finally!!! And believe work starting at Melton after todays meeting

http://www.punters.com.au/news/Victorian-racing-to-introduce-lanes%3B-staggered-starts_135805/

[arlington]

As long as they start work before tomorrow, April 2.

[Messenger]

Were Craig and Hugh really sucked in?

[Messenger]

If the industry is going to attract the general punting public surely we have to be uniform when it comes to sprint lanes - All tracks or None
Watching consecutive races on this big night on Sky
The Gold Coast Oaks at Albion Park and the sprint lane is a huge factor
next up Breeders Challenge semi at Menangle and NO sprint lane is a huge factor
General punters do not need to have such vital track knowledge when it comes to the gallops and so when caught out by our hodge podge they can easily write us off

http://www.harness.org.au/meeting-results.cfm?mc=AP200615&ms=qld#APC20061509

http://www.harness.org.au/meeting-results.cfm?mc=PC200615&ms=nsw#PCM20061508

[HaroldParker]

The Gold Coast Oaks was a disgrace. Sprint Lanes are a blight. I love the racing in WA but whilst Gloucester Park is in recess Bunbury is no different than the crap dished up at Melton every week. Get rid of them.

[Messenger]

The All Stars certainly worked their tactics around it Bob. I could live without them but somehow I do not see it happening

[Danno]

No surprise that I agree with Bob on this one, the Sprint Lane AND the rules are a dead set blight on the game, to be honest I think the person who "invented" the sprint lane and the others who have been responsible for its proliferation would/should feel less than proud......the way the sprint lane adulterates driving tactics should have been sufficient to have thrown the bloody things on the scrap heap a long time ago.


I have been banging on about our racing being too predictable for years and the sprint lane just adds to that.....

[HaroldParker]

The All Stars certainly worked their tactics around it Bob. I could live without them but somehow I do not see it happening

It looked to me like Shane Graham on the Stablemate wasn't privy to such tactics Kev. I think he was in as much shock as everyone watching. It took a furlong to go from one out to half a cart onto the pegs. At any time that Fav could easily of got onto his wheel and it's game over for the 10's on pop taking a sit at the 600m!

I know they drive like that in NZ but NZ Harness Racing is as unwatchable as it is uninteresting.

[Messenger]

It looked to me like Shane Graham on the Stablemate wasn't privy to such tactics Kev. I think he was in as much shock as everyone watching. It took a furlong to go from one out to half a cart onto the pegs. At any time that Fav could easily of got onto his wheel and it's game over for the 10's on pop taking a sit at the 600m!

I know they drive like that in NZ but NZ Harness Racing is as unwatchable as it is uninteresting.

Yeah Bob on second viewing it would seem that Cockburn's strong move simply threw the cat amongst the pigeons

[Messenger]

http://www.harnesslink.com/Australia/Kevin-Pizzuto-Freyberg-NZ-

In some ways it is strange that KP gets 9mths for doing what a sprint lane does day after day

http://www.harness.org.au/meeting-results.cfm?mc=PC300515&ms=nsw#PCM30051510

Here is the race again if you want to have another look

[codywinnell]

Do the gallops have cutaways still?

[Messenger]

http://www.harnesslink.com/Australia/HRNSW-Media-Release---Three-more-sprint-lanes-to-be-introduced-in-NSW

More coming your way

[Messenger]

Just watch the Breeders Crown heat with fav Zee Dana handing up to 2nd fav Code Black, knowing he had a Golden Ticket for the home straight
I'm afraid I cannot get over sprint lanes - they stink
(and No, I had no interest in the race)

http://www.harness.org.au/meeting-results.cfm?mc=SP040815&ms=vic#SPC04081507

[Messenger]

You have Breeders Crown semis without a sprint lane and then run the finals with a sprint lane - that's not confusing

[Messenger]

David Murphy disqualified for thinking Ballarat should have a sprint lane ;)

http://www.harness.org.au/meeting-results.cfm?mc=BA010915&ms=vic#BAC01091505

[Messenger]

The Be Good Johnny Sprint - another race destroyed by the sprint lane. If that is considered exciting (I don't know what race Chris Barsby was calling/watching) then there is little chance of our sport surviving.
I don't think mile racing on small tracks should have more than 8 in the field, you then might have most runners with some chance under the right circumstances but I cannot say I am a big fan of mile racing

http://www.harness.org.au/meeting-results.cfm?mc=AP101015&ms=qld#APC10101501

[Big K]

Backed "Pay Me Quick" in R5 GP last night....lost my money because the horse got burnt off at the start and then had no further opportunity to win the race!!!...guess I need to revise my betting strategies or better still,dont bet on horses that could get locked in.

[Messenger]

You succinctly illustrate the other side of the coin Big K. It is why sprint lanes came into existence. Unfortunately we suffer when compared to the gallops as they seemto have less of this problem due to the fact that ridden horses are more manoeuverable (shorter), don't always hold a perfect line in the straight and many of their racecourses have very long straights

[Messenger]

Race 2 at Melton, The EK Bray Cup is an example of what is equal worst thing about Sprint Lanes - BORING racing

http://www.harness.org.au/meeting-results.cfm?mc=MX070516&ms=vic#MXM07051606

I suppose if a driver takes on the leader to put the fave 3 fence, he risks the wrath of the stewards for the majority of the times it is not going to come off

(the other worst is of course the fact that nobody should be gifted a run)

[Messenger]

I should probably be waiting until after the races have been run but I was thinking after the barrier draws whether at least 3 of the Crown finals (R4-6) would have been interesting/tactical without a sprint lane

[Messenger]

Yep, I should have held my tongue R4&6 were driven as if there was no Sprint lane consolation prize. Undoubtedly R5 would have been different without the SL - the fav and the winner would have been desperate to get off the inside early but the sprint lane has not detracted from the racing so far today

[Messenger]

Why hasn't Mildura got a sprint lane? You would think there has to be some uniformity. I always thought Ballarat got away with it (good on them) because they have such a long straight but Mildura have a shorter straight than Stawell

[Messenger]

The NSW Oaks was interesting because there is No sprint lane at Menangle - if we knew the leader's back was guaranteed an out, that race would have had zero suspense.

[trish]

http://www.harnessracingupdate.com/2017/04/02/brush-crush-time-ditch-passing-lane/#.WODUDjmlCEw.facebook

[Messenger]

An interesting article Trish, relevant to every country even if our racing style is a lot less fence orientated than theirs

[aussiebreno]

While the idea of a blackbooker is there for horses who get held up, how about punters investing more because they actually know from previous starts how good a horse is? If a horse gets held up, how do we know how good the horse is? Seems silly to me to be betting on or against a horse if you don't know how good the horse is.

[Messenger]

A problem with the sprint lane is that on most tracks, the lead and the sit behind the leader are the two best positions to hold
So when a stable has multiple runners and one is quick enough to take the lead, you often see a stablemate come around and be 'given' the lead so that the stable now holds the two most favoured positions
If there was no sprint lane the original leader would have some explaining to do if they surrendered the lead with no guarantee of getting out (the sprint lane)
It would stop the equivalent of team driving eg the Douglas stable in the last at Bendigo (no wonder the 7 was heavily supported)

http://www.harness.org.au/racing/fields/race-fields/?mc=BN150620#BNC15062001

[gutwagon]

I agree with you Kevin. This would be less of a problem if stewards did their job !

[aussiebreno]

I agree with you Kevin. This would be less of a problem if stewards did their job !

This seems to be the hard part.

The amount of QDT missed and then Darby McGuigan gets a QDT for his drive in the last at Melton on Idealsomemagic. He pops in behind early leader and race favourite Smart Little Shard to get the sprint lane. Smart Little Shard ends up handing up putting Idealsomemagic 3 pegs. The alternative was stay in the running line and end up death seating with the Smart Little Shard and Cocosfella the 2 best horses in the race having the best runs. Ludicrous Darby gets a QDT with the amount of drives that go unquestioned. The stewards even QDT Smart Little Shard showing they thought he should hold the lead, so why on earth they would then go on to query Darby if they were of the opinion Smart Little Shard should have held the lead giving Idealsomemagic the sprint lane is beyond me.

[Messenger]

You would have thought there was a sprint lane at Menangle last night with the way 2 inside runs presented for Luke McCarthy in the big ones (R4 & R7)
I sometimes wonder whether the advent of poles instead of fences has made it harder for leaders to hold their line (poles are of course a must for safer racing)

http://www.harness.org.au/racing/fields/race-fields/?mc=PC241020

[JanellePeter]

Hi
I am a race analyser (Just to clarify before I start). This debate is circular and I agree with both points of view. There will be times you will be duded by a sprint lane or duded by no sprint lane. What the industry needs is fair racing. That's what I want as an analyser. If that what you want then start listing what your version of fair is. Here's my list:
No interference or blocking, every horse gets equal opportunity at the start, pace can't be dictated by a horse just because it can run the first 100m fast to get to the lead, no position in running should have an advantage or disadvantage.
Now use that criteria to design how to race. There is a very simple answer:
2.5km straight track, 14 lanes (all start on front), stay in your lane - Then you will see the best horse win which I hope is what we all want to see.

Not good for viewing on course I hear you say between the laugher of the idea just presented.
Here's a novel solution - Build a moving grandstand! Put the stewards and cameras on it and you will get great viewing on course and at home.
I probably have you rolling around the floor with laugher by now - And if I do, I guarantee you are one of the people continuing to accept the same thing and debating the same things and getting the same results.
Be brave, think outside the square and you might just get surprised.