hype and delusion

[niloc]

why do the media in this country continually bombard us with bull---- about so called champions?last week we heard about the latest in a long line of these pretenders namely philidelphia man,all week we heard and read about what he was going to do to a country cup field at shepparton,he started at false and prohibitive odds and was a major disappointment to all that been sucked into the hype.a hype created by certain members of the media who are irresponsible and dumb.think about what real champions have done,think about the likes of cardigan bay,halwes,hondo grattan, pure steel,paleface adios,gammalite, popular alm,village kid,preaux chevalier,blacks a fake etc.i am sure if the people who write or broadcast this crap have no idea what a criteria entails to qualify horses to such lofty heights.there is only one horse in the vic cup tonight who has any claim to such a moniker and it is not philly man.

[Smoken]

I personally don't think there are any Champions in the race tonight. There are very high quality horses engaged, more than a few with the potential to be labeled Champions in the future. I'm sure there will be a few that disagree, but that's ok, because we all have different opinions.

[p plater]

Champions imo are the ones that achieved great things for many seasons in a row.
As Colin said, the media is to quick to issue this label.... check out the names he mentioned, all long term greats

[brent_L]

Who was called a "champion" & by whom?

[Smoken]

Who was called a "champion" & by whom?

If I'm not mistaken, I think the race caller called him a Champ during the race?

[niloc]

you are right,not one in sight.

[Messenger]

you are right,not one in sight.

But dont you think C Me has an excellent chance of earning the title one day.
He is only half way through his 6yo season and from his 10 Aussie starts he has 4 Gp1 wins, 3 Gp1 seconds, 1 Gp1 third and 2 Gp2 wins.

I think Adore Me will also have earnt 'champion mare' before she heads to the barn.

We have to expect/even want the media to spruik feature races.
It was one hell of a field but unfortunately over the short distance the 'future champ' just blitzed them

[niloc]

such luminaries as the race caller(macintosh),the form and tipping staff of harness racing aust,4tab qld guru Chris Barsby ,the staff who were on sky channel the night the race was run,they all contributed to the false odds about the horse philidelphia man.i think we would all agree he is a fine horse,full of promise but he and his trainer could do without all this pressure and hype after all the only ones who benefit from this are bookmakers.i could be cynical and suggest that this type of behaviour is somewhat sinister but of course i would not do that!

[niloc]

messenger,c me shows great promise in his quest for that elusive moniker so he better start winning some inters etc,he is only 6 so he has plenty of time to do that,adore me is already the outstanding mare of her year she only needs an interdom,miracle mile,hunter cup etc and her run last night,along with beautide,guaranteed were outstanding.

[Maorisidol]

messenger,c me shows great promise in his quest for that elusive moniker so he better start winning some inters etc,he is only 6 so he has plenty of time to do that,adore me is already the outstanding mare of her year she only needs an interdom,miracle mile,hunter cup etc and her run last night,along with beautide,guaranteed were outstanding.

"he better start winning some Inters etc"???????
Please explain what the etc is...but first please read below,
Christen Me,
Hunter Cup...tick
Miracle Mile...tick
Victoria Cup...tick
Chariots of Fire...tick
NZ FFA...tick
Harness Jewels NZ 4yo...tick
NZ Messenger...tick
Taylor Mile...tick
4 Group 1's in Aust
4 Group 1's in NZ...show me how many Champions have done that on the all time list of Champions.

How many G1's did Paleface Adios and Pure Steel win in NZ?
Paleface won a Miracle Mile, no Inter but of course many many heats, no Hunter Cup.
Now "Jacko" the "Temora Terror" was a pin up horse of mine growing up, he was, is a legend and so was, is Steelo but sometimes something can pop up in your face and you dont realise you ARE watching a Champion.
Last night based on his CV and of course he should have at least 2-3 years to go, Christen Me was Christened a Champ!
The race wins are there!

[Richard prior]

"he better start winning some Inters etc"???????
Please explain what the etc is...but first please read below,
Christen Me,
Hunter Cup...tick
Miracle Mile...tick
Victoria Cup...tick
Chariots of Fire...tick
NZ FFA...tick
Harness Jewels NZ 4yo...tick
NZ Messenger...tick
Taylor Mile...tick
4 Group 1's in Aust
4 Group 1's in NZ...show me how many Champions have done that on the all time list of Champions.

How many G1's did Paleface Adios and Pure Steel win in NZ?
Paleface won a Miracle Mile, no Inter but of course many many heats, no Hunter Cup.
Now "Jacko" the "Temora Terror" was a pin up horse of mine growing up, he was, is a legend and so was, is Steelo but sometimes something can pop up in your face and you dont realise you ARE watching a Champion.
Last night based on his CV and of course he should have at least 2-3 years to go, Christen Me was Christened a Champ!
The race wins are there!

+1

[brent_L]

^
+2

[Richard prior]

^
+2

^
lol

[brent_L]

such luminaries as the race caller(macintosh),the form and tipping staff of harness racing aust,4tab qld guru Chris Barsby ,the staff who were on sky channel the night the race was run,they all contributed to the false odds about the horse philidelphia man.i think we would all agree he is a fine horse,full of promise but he and his trainer could do without all this pressure and hype after all the only ones who benefit from this are bookmakers.i could be cynical and suggest that this type of behaviour is somewhat sinister but of course i would not do that!
False odds?? No such thing in this day & age with Betfair sorry Colin. It is quite simply supply & demand. He went off in that race u r referring to @ $2-.....he was matched as low as $1.80 & as high as $2.15. I'll concede that the media types u mentioned can be responsible for shorter parimutual divis + tighter opening odds from corps but when it comes to the exchange your argument doesn't fly imo. I respect your opinion with regards to people tagging him (I myself called him a potential equine freak) but in this particular race + his odds, I reckon u r being rather harsh.....he finished 2nd and anyone who thought he was going to get beat at the 300 has no clue about what they were watching. I've seen $2 pops go down a lot easier that that.

[Richard prior]

"he better start winning some Inters etc"???????
Please explain what the etc is...but first please read below,
Christen Me,
Hunter Cup...tick
Miracle Mile...tick
Victoria Cup...tick
Chariots of Fire...tick
NZ FFA...tick
Harness Jewels NZ 4yo...tick
NZ Messenger...tick
Taylor Mile...tick
4 Group 1's in Aust
4 Group 1's in NZ...show me how many Champions have done that on the all time list of Champions.

How many G1's did Paleface Adios and Pure Steel win in NZ?
Paleface won a Miracle Mile, no Inter but of course many many heats, no Hunter Cup.
Now "Jacko" the "Temora Terror" was a pin up horse of mine growing up, he was, is a legend and so was, is Steelo but sometimes something can pop up in your face and you dont realise you ARE watching a Champion.
Last night based on his CV and of course he should have at least 2-3 years to go, Christen Me was Christened a Champ!
The race wins are there!

All BS aside Colin, Christen Me's resume is pretty impressive and it's very rare a horse can win the races mentioned by Ash either side of the ditch, I think that what a lot of people forget when classing a champion is the quality of the opposition that the horse is beating and at the moment it's the absolute cream of the crop, Longevity does play a part, I'll agree with that and if Christen Me is not already a champion, He's very close IMHO.

[Smoken]

Is TTL considered more of a Champion in NZ compared to CM?

[brent_L]

It's not even close Ev.....3 time cup champ & all.

[Smoken]

Ye, that's what I thought Brent. Curious to see how TTL goes on Hunter Cup night.

[niloc]

maorisidol,Pure Steel raced 125 times for 68 wins,he cost $2400,he returned nearly a million bucks finishing in 1980,3 hunter cups(no horse had done that before or since) ,miracle mile(sat 3 deep all the way) 4 west aust pacing cups,kilmore cup.you can not class age races as group one races simply because of the age restrictions yes i know the chariots allows 5yo's as well.what do you think im themighty quinn would have done to those fields.Christen me is no pure steel, not yet.how much do you think $915302 earnt in the late 70's and 1980 convert to now??

[Richard prior]

maorisidol,Pure Steel raced 125 times for 68 wins,he cost $2400,he returned nearly a million bucks finishing in 1980,3 hunter cups(no horse had done that before or since) ,miracle mile(sat 3 deep all the way) 4 west aust pacing cups,kilmore cup.you can not class age races as group one races simply because of the age restrictions yes i know the chariots allows 5yo's as well.what do you think im themighty quinn would have done to those fields.Christen me is no pure steel, not yet.how much do you think $915302 earnt in the late 70's and 1980 convert to now??
No argument from me about Steelo, He was an incredible horse.

[teecee]

Champions are purely created in the eyes of the beholder. the start of this thread is critical of the views of the current day champion claims yet then goes on to basically in #19 to label one horse from a bygone era as such and then commit the cardinal sin of comparing horses of different eras.
IMO each era has its champions but each is only a champion when the meet the individual criteria of the person claiming them to be such...i.e.
Horses that I may consider to be champions will often be not in the eyes of many here and elsewhere. Also horses of different eras will be champions in their era but often are not considered so by others who no little of their exploits.
I believe that what makes a champion is based on beating the very best opposition over varied distances at any circuit. that doesn't mean they are unbeaten. Often the best performance in a race is not by the winner.
I also firmly believe that champions come on age group racing. Courage Under Fire when unbeaten in first 24 starts at 2, 3 and 4 winning the races he did against the opposition against himon both sides of the ditch qualifies him for champ status.


Horses I have seen and consider to be of champion status....
Cardigan Bay, Bret Hanover, Artsplace, Niatross, Robin Dundee, Popular Alm, Delightful Lady, Blossom Lady, Paleface Adios, Pure Steel, Courage Under Fire, Christian Cullen and never forget Blackie, ITMQ and Trigger. Along with trotters Varenne, Lyall Creek, Merinai, Maori's Idol, Waggon Apollo, True Roman, Muscles Yankee, Muscle Hill along with some others. They are all horses from different countries winning in different eras against the highest level of opposition fielded against them.


As for horses racing today....
Terror to Love. Although he has not shown Australian his best in the flesh he has met and beaten what we have put up against him in new Zealand along with the odd Aussie visitor to NZ. It should be noted that horses he has beaten here have gone to Oz and beaten the best Australia has put up. That his greatest triumphs of 3 victories in Austalasia's toughest test puts him in champions status.
Christen Me. His record in a relatively short career speaks for itself, as listed previously, clearly puts him in champion status. Basically the only GC race he has competed in and is yet to win are NZ Cup.
He has beaten the best and done so often with relative ease. Last nights Victoria Cup was rightfully claimed by many to be the gathering of the very cream of Austalasian pacing talent with IMO 2 exceptions. Whilst I accept 2 were missing, IMO they may not have been able to prevent the prevailing result and how it was achieved.
Adore Me is, IMO absolutely a champion. She may not have raced against the males often but when she has, hers is usually the run of the race bringing 2 GROUP 1 wins and several placings against our best male pacers. She is nigh well unbeatable against her own sex and racing against them is not a barrier to stardom as per age racing. Her connections have made the choice to not race in the Interdominions but rather the ladyship Mile on Finals day. That will afford those there to witness possibly two undisputable champions crowned on that star day.
As far as the aussies go Beautide is the next closest thing to a champ there. I can't really offer an opinion outright as I have seen little of him other than his MM and Interdom victories. and those two alone put him right up there.


As I say a champion is in the eyes of the beholder and your champ may not be mine and vice versa.
This is a sturdy debate thread which belies the title IMO. Keep it up.

[Richard prior]

Ye, that's what I thought Brent. Curious to see how TTL goes on Hunter Cup night.
Hi Ev, Different kettle of fish in the Hunter Cup compared to last nights Victoria Cup, TTL will or should really appreciate the extra distance and all things being equal, He'll be in the hunt.

[Maorisidol]

Hi Ev, Different kettle of fish in the Hunter Cup compared to last nights Victoria Cup, TTL will or should really appreciate the extra distance and all things being equal, He'll be in the hunt.

If i may Rich and Smoken, now theres 2 posts about the Hunter Cup, can i take this across to the Hunter Cup thread i created and carry on from there???

[The Escape Club]

why do the media in this country continually bombard us with bull---- about so called champions?last week we heard about the latest in a long line of these pretenders namely philidelphia man,all week we heard and read about what he was going to do to a country cup field at shepparton,he started at false and prohibitive odds and was a major disappointment to all that been sucked into the hype.a hype created by certain members of the media who are irresponsible and dumb.think about what real champions have done,think about the likes of cardigan bay,halwes,hondo grattan, pure steel,paleface adios,gammalite, popular alm,village kid,preaux chevalier,blacks a fake etc.i am sure if the people who write or broadcast this crap have no idea what a criteria entails to qualify horses to such lofty heights.there is only one horse in the vic cup tonight who has any claim to such a moniker and it is not philly man.


From your list, why was Poppy a champion? He won a MM, Hunter Cup and QPC. A much inferior CV the others that you've thrown up.

[Richard prior]

If i may Rich and Smoken, now theres 2 posts about the Hunter Cup, can i take this across to the Hunter Cup thread i created and carry on from there???

Yes, No problems here Ash.

[Maorisidol]

From your list, why was Poppy a champion? He won a MM, Hunter Cup and QPC. A much inferior CV the others that you've thrown up.

Before anyone answers your question Robert, are you saying Poppy was not or does not deserve to be called a Champion or mentioned in the same category as who you regard as Champions?

[Smoken]

Sounds good Ash. I always thought Iraklis was a Champ, others have disagreed and still do, but that's what makes it fun.
As TeeCee said, it's in the eye of the beholder for many varying reasons.

[The Escape Club]

Before anyone answers your question Robert, are you saying Poppy was not or does not deserve to be called a Champion or mentioned in the same category as who you regard as Champions?


Best horse I've seen, missed out on the top 3 only 3 times in his career, was an electrifying horse who had a lot of issues at inopportune times.


He won from 1609m out to 3300m and everywhere in between, he won from the mobile and the stand, winning off handicaps out to 50m. He was smashing the clock while he was doing it.


Just like ITMQ he would pull them through the gates in their thousands.


IMO, there's a much greater depth of quality compared to when Poppy was going around, he made up for it with margins and times. He was tough too, you only have to watch his 2nd Kilmore Cup win when he came off 35m and was almost knocked over twice by Bret Eden.

[Maorisidol]

Best horse I've seen, missed out on the top 3 only 3 times in his career, was an electrifying horse who had a lot of issues at inopportune times.


He won from 1609m out to 3300m and everywhere in between, he won from the mobile and the stand, winning off handicaps out to 50m. He was smashing the clock while he was doing it.


Just like ITMQ he would pull them through the gates in their thousands.


IMO, there's a much greater depth of quality compared to when Poppy was going around, he made up for it with margins and times. He was tough too, you only have to watch his 2nd Kilmore Cup win when he came off 35m and was almost knocked over twice by Bret Eden.

Now i'm confused.
Earlier you were asking Colin "From your list, why was Poppy a champion? He won a MM, Hunter Cup and QPC. A much inferior CV the others that you've thrown up."
That question seems to infer you didnt think he should be classified a Champion...???
But your response to me says he was the best horse you've seen...

[Messenger]

Now i'm confused.
Earlier you were asking Colin "From your list, why was Poppy a champion? He won a MM, Hunter Cup and QPC. A much inferior CV the others that you've thrown up."
That question seems to infer you didnt think he should be classified a Champion...???
But your response to me says he was the best horse you've seen...

You did not really think that, did you Ash?
It was a variation on a rhetorical question

[Smoken]

If all those Champions of yesteryear had the same supplements as they do today, same tracks, carts etc, I wonder how much quicker they could have gone? We can only imagine..

[The Escape Club]

Now i'm confused.
Earlier you were asking Colin "From your list, why was Poppy a champion? He won a MM, Hunter Cup and QPC. A much inferior CV the others that you've thrown up."
That question seems to infer you didnt think he should be classified a Champion...???
But your response to me says he was the best horse you've seen...


I was just wondering why the OP had him in there with his relatively poor GR1 record compared with many others including a lot that are going around today.

[doncht]

He probably seen something on a different angle. But I can't think of anything though. https://imagicon.info/cat/10-3/1.gif

[aussiebreno]

I'd like to nominate one to the hype and delusion.


Not too bad considering a few have dropped out and a few have question marks after Vic and Hunter Cups but Lennytheshark is just about favourite for the Inter.


He is Beautide and Christen Me, we are talking a newbie to the Grand Circuit being alongside Miracle Mile, Interdom, Vic Cup and Hunter Cup winners.


Yes it was a nice run in the Vic Cup but I would have expected about 20 if not more horses could have filled 2nd placing with that run. 54 home and he had the box seat he was entitled to run 2nd, it would have been disappointing if he didn't.


Not that I should complain, I was able to lay off for a tidy profit after backing him at $21.


Footnote: I'm cheering for a horse I reckon others would nominate to this thread, Chilli Palmer. Not 100% sold he can qualify (given he will be sitting back in what is likely to be a sprint home) but if he can just fill third place I reckon next fortnight might be the day he gets that elusive race that is 'run to suit'. We've had two Inters where they've walked and ran home in rocket speed, surely they can put a bit of pace on this year so Chilli can run over the top of them. If not he will give them shades of Quinny at WA next year. Someone say hype and delusion?

[brent_L]

I respect your opinion & I agree Lenny is yet to deserve his name alongside the other 2 u mention Breno, but I feel u are (& have not....Vic cup comment in relation to Restrepo) not giving the horse his due credit. Not only, as u pointed out, have the others fallen off their perch so to speak (+ the one who hasn't, CM, is suspect over a journey), but Lennys own cv speaks for itself. His two runs back have been super (albeit leaders back x 2) behind horses at the top of their game at the time, he is clearly leading his head 2 head battle with the horse most people believe to be the best in Vic in Gauranteed, he's a Derby winner (from a wide draw if I remember correctly) against a very very good bunch in Syd etc, etc. He did do what I expected him to do behind the leader in the Vic cup, but what made it a very good performance imo was the fact that the horse trailing him, DH, was left lamenting. It won't suprise me to see his price shorten even more after the heats tonight.

I'm loving the driving of Anthony Butt right now and if Chilli doesn't run for him then I'll be buggered. He was extremely disadvantaged though when the 1 came out. Still, $2.70 the drum at the moment looks value especially if there is a little pressure from horses 4 & 5 trying to help their fast finishing stablemates out.

[niloc]

it is quite apparent that the modern day 'champions' are nowhere near as tough or as durable as the true champions of the past,no wonder the people who run this sport are always changing conditions.lets go retro id, heats and final run within 21days,that will sort out all hype and bull about who really is a champ!! have a look at the atrition rate of the last month they are going down like ten pins!no koala kings, gammalites with this lot.:D

[brent_L]

I understand where you're coming from Colin, but the current Inters format has zero to do with attrition and all to do with $$.

[Richard prior]

I understand where you're coming from Colin, but the current Inters format has zero to do with attrition and all to do with $$.
+1

[Messenger]

I understand where you're coming from Colin, but the current Inters format has zero to do with attrition and all to do with $$.

Isn't Colin suggesting the old format and the old champs were tougher?

[Richard prior]

No argument from me about the the toughness and durability of our previous champions Kev and Colin, They certainly were able to back up a lot better in the old days, The Interdom has become a bit of a farce in the last few years with the programming and I'm glad that it's going over to WA but as Brent mentioned, It's certainly being driven by the almighty punting dollar at the moment, It's very disappointing to see horses of the calibre of Guaranteed and Christen Me being scratched out and I put this down to the big races being programmed to close together and not just one authority is to blame for this, They all need to sit down and program their meetings at specific times of the year to try and attract the very best horses.

[Messenger]

No argument from me about the the toughness and durability of our previous champions Kev and Colin, They certainly were able to back up a lot better in the old days, The Interdom has become a bit of a farce in the last few years with the programming and I'm glad that it's going over to WA but as Brent mentioned, It's certainly being driven by the almighty punting dollar at the moment, It's very disappointing to see horses of the calibre of Guaranteed and Christen Me being scratched out and I put this down to the big races being programmed to close together and not just one authority is to blame for this, They all need to sit down and program their meetings at specific times of the year to try and attract the very best horses.
I agree with this Rich and that is why I think Colin is being a bit hard on the new Champs

[niloc]

the original concept of the inter was terrific for the benefit of the game itself ,each city received financial gifts, tourism, the pure spectacle of the best of the best,what a tremendous shot in the arm it used to be!!this carnival of our best.it was solely responsible for my own enduring love of the trots.i would not have seen such stars such as Robin Dundee,the mighty Halwes,Young Quinn etc,it ruled as our and n'zeds flagship we need to try and revive that spirit.i am also pleased WA has got it back,perhaps some sanity will return! Why are these modern day horses not as tough as those that went before them?We have access to the best bloodlines on the planet which we did not have in those halcyon times,could it be our need for speed?Our training methods have changed, more in line with our american cousins to cater for these mad dash's yet we saw with Mr Feelgood these regally bred horses can be taught to stay(credit to the Butts).I am not so sure that these dominant north american sire lines are as potent as they seem,The first horse to win a million was nz bred and his large fiscal gains were reaped in their back yard!Mind you, as we know Cardigan Bay was a mighty horse.I fear that with this obsession we have for speed that we will go as our thoroughbreds have gone and eventually have barely any representation in our own backyard.