How can it be good for Australia to have the NZers come and take all the prizemoney?

[Messenger]

Controversial Kev again but how can it be good for our struggling industry to see so much money go across the ditch?
Add in the fact that it makes many think purchasing NZ horses makes more sense than breeding Oz
I know they are not always this dominant but if we were doing a harness 'balance of payments' between the 2 countries, I know which one is streets ahead

[Messenger]

The following factory has scheduled an extra shift tomorrow to cope with a rush of conversions

[Messenger]

Once again the majority of it sailing away tonight

[Messenger]

once again ....
What were the NZers singing in the bar at Redwood Day

[Messenger]

Taking most of the Breeders Crown money
SERIOUSLY - it has to be hurting the Australian industry doesn't it?

[Mark Croatto]

Taking most of the Breeders Crown money , SERIOUSLY - it has to be hurting the Australian industry doesn't it?

Not necessarily Kevin, whilst its never good that prize money goes OS the Kiwis have started buying at the Australian yearling sales, so some re-investment is happening, in particular with Mark Purdon. Hopefully that continues.

[Messenger]

I really do appreciate that Mark and I suppose it comes down to where they spend their prizemoney. I probably would not mind as much if it was a different NZer winning most of it

[codywinnell]

Important to remember the Kiwis contribute about a quarter of the overall Breeders Crown prize pool and of course for the finals we only see the best Kiwis for their age group.

Futurity series are of course different to the way stake money is usually put up in that the pool these horses are racing for is actually made up of the initial fees to nominate for the Breeders Crown.

If I'm being parochial then yes, would be nice to see the Victorians dominate of course!

But I also think we saw some genuine "freak potential" horses this year. Hence the short-priced favourites.

[cyclone george]

Cody I have no problems with kiwis coming over and racing and winning our races,it's called a competive world. But one thing the kiwis have over the Aussies in the crown is the way it's set up (and it did benefit a horse I bred). I find it totally unfair when the kiwis just have a walkover to advance straight to the semi final about five weeks from the finals although Waikiki beach qualified in Sydney about a month ago. The locals race in full fields and only the winner goes through which makes it bloody tough on 2yo to race 4 weeks in a row . Surely make them all come here and qualify , or if you have one a group 1 or2 race you are automatically qualified for the semi . You won't get any more from nz under this way. When the heats are in vic and there's 12 spots left the first 3 go direct to the semis 2 weeks later . Have repacharges just the winners go through . It's probably not the perfect solution but having 2 horse heats are a joke,

[codywinnell]

Cody I have no problems with kiwis coming over and racing and winning our races,it's called a competive world. But one thing the kiwis have over the Aussies in the crown is the way it's set up (and it did benefit a horse I bred). I find it totally unfair when the kiwis just have a walkover to advance straight to the semi final about five weeks from the finals although Waikiki beach qualified in Sydney about a month ago. The locals race in full fields and only the winner goes through which makes it bloody tough on 2yo to race 4 weeks in a row . Surely make them all come here and qualify , or if you have one a group 1 or2 race you are automatically qualified for the semi . You won't get any more from nz under this way. When the heats are in vic and there's 12 spots left the first 3 go direct to the semis 2 weeks later . Have repacharges just the winners go through . It's probably not the perfect solution but having 2 horse heats are a joke,

Agree with your view that 2-horse heats are unsavory and I think finding a way to change that in the future will probably become a priority. In the review that occurs with all the big meetings and carnivals I'm sure a lot will be discussed to try and improve the series for the future.
But I also think we saw some genuine potential-freak horses this year. As Josh Dickie said tonight, "I think from yesterday's meeting we'll see at least one future NZ Cup winner..." No matter how the heats were run I'm confident most of yesterday's winners would be the same.

[gutwagon]

I agree with Kevin. It's not just the Breeders Crown either , it's all our big races. HRV keeps increasing the stakes for big races and more than half the money goes to NZ. I would like to see big race prize money frozen and normal race stakes increase for 4 or 5 years . This would spread the money more evenly and stop so much going to NZ.

[Messenger]

Mark Purdon makes Australia look like mugs again. I bet he is cross about Itz Bettor To Win running second and costing him a clean sweep in Vic and NSW

[FINEST]

Just a rough calculation, M Purdon has won races worth $2,500,000
in Australia during January and February.

[Messenger]

Probably once again rueing a 2nd spoiling perfection LOL
We are talking about 2 countries worth of horses and trainers
Cannot think of such domination at this level in any code and as we know it is a somewhat regular occurrence.
If he did not have that little Blue on his record the world would be spruiking him as a contender for greatest horseman of all time

[Messenger]

And again tonight, he plunders the big Vic Oaks prize

http://www.harness.org.au/meeting-results.cfm?mc=MX160416&ms=vic#MXM16041606

An unbelievable strike rate
I sometimes wonder whether MP is the only person making Big money out of harness racing

[Mighty Atom]

Quite right Kevin but at least Western Australian harness racing put a stop to that with Chicago Bull in the WA Derby beating Let's Chase The Dream on its merits and he's one of Purdon'/Rasmussen's top horses having beaten Lazarus twice. We obviously have to try a little harder or alternatively, something stinks in the state of Denmark.

[Messenger]

Reading that Dairy prices in NZ have fallen by 50% in 2yrs. I am now sympathetic to any raiders who have a dairy farmer in their ownership. This one looks like he needs a bit of love

[arlington]

Share the love Kev, Aussie cow cockies aren't sleeping easy atm either.


Maybe with this new found recognition of the grass roots participant HRV, at least, should follow Sheed's lead.


http://www.weeklytimesnow.com.au/sport/country-football/kevin-sheedy-bridges-footys-geographical-divide/news-story/b7eeab500ff376807feabbc2e9ed3f23


Or Cody might be able to wangle Vaughn Lynch a subscription to the Weekly Times? Not sure if Vaughn brought up the tiered system over scones and tea during his rural tour.

[Messenger]

They take 4 of the big ones again - dam


http://www.harness.org.au/meeting-results.cfm?mc=MX280816&ms=vic

[Messenger]

Of course they do the same in NZ - I cannot think that it can be good for NZ either

http://infohorse.hrnz.co.nz/datahr/results/110832rs.htm

[Messenger]

They won the 3 biggest races on Auckland Cup night. Before this night they had already won more than the next 4 on the NZ Premiership Table (and of course this does not count the Inter either)
They have now won the first 3 legs of the APG Grand Circuit with 3 different horses - with the WA Pacing Cup being the next leg, it may be the only chance for another stable to win something

http://www.harness.org.au/news-article.cfm?news_id=31994

[trish]

Not sure where to put this but this will do...good read


http://www.theroar.com.au/2017/01/14/can-the-stars-shine-too-brightly/

[KTQ]

what shits me about this article is its angle that the trainers made the horses, that the horses stood no chance of being champions without the trainers. A horse as good as Dream About Me or Lazarus or Blacks A Fake could have done just as well with my Dad, with Purdon/Rasmussen, as bloody Joe Blow. They make it seem like Purdon/Hall/ETC are some sort of horse whisperers. it's just not true, instead its a self fulfilling prophecy. Give a trainer a good horse and it'll win races. Give a trainer lots of good horses because he won with horse A and he'll win more races and will be given better horses. Gve a trainer the best horses because their great horses are winning and suddenly they can demand only the champions.

Give purdon or Hall or whoever a chance to pick yearlings in a sale with a $40k cap of their own money vs my dad or Joe Blow or whoever and let's see who is the better trainer.

goddammit it makes me angry. Wealthy owners a trainer does not make. Except it sadly does.

#QuarantineGate I trust

[Messenger]

I am with you Katie - success breeds success, you do not have to look any further than how David Aiken was given Hector
As for them being the best trainers by a margin - I also think that there are dozens of trainers just as knowledgeable as them
As for the 2005 indiscretion - it will never be forgotten and I find laying the blame solely on the deceased to be very convenient and unsavoury

[Fan of Jate]

I thought the article was quite fair and summed up well by the author. Sounds like not much credit is being given to the all stars team. They are renowned as being top horse people especially Mark Purdon who apparently has the best eye for horseflesh in the land. I don't always agree that you give a top horse to any old trainer that the horse will continue to win big races that's just not true and it is dreaming if you think that. Yes, they have plenty of money behind them and that helps big time. Unfortunately for anyone who is not associated with this team or their horses in some way and I am one of them..........bad luck.

[Messenger]

I thought the article was quite fair and summed up well by the author. Sounds like not much credit is being given to the all stars team. They are renowned as being top horse people especially Mark Purdon who apparently has the best eye for horseflesh in the land. I don't always agree that you give a top horse to any old trainer that the horse will continue to win big races that's just not true and it is dreaming if you think that. Yes, they have plenty of money behind them and that helps big time. Unfortunately for anyone who is not associated with this team or their horses in some way and I am one of them..........bad luck.

I dont think anybody is saying 'any old trainer' Pat

[Fan of Jate]

Kev...Those words weren't used but "bloody Joe blow" in that post IMO could be described also as "any old trainer" or words to that effect, basically implying that a anyone could do it. I am sure I did not misread that or miss the implication.

[Messenger]

Kev...Those words weren't used but "bloody Joe blow" in that post IMO could be described also as "any old trainer" or words to that effect, basically implying that a anyone could do it. I am sure I did not misread that or miss the implication.

I see that now. Correction: I am not saying 'any old trainer'
In Katie's defence - a lot of trainers could have looked good with horse's of the calibre of those three

[Fan of Jate]

Most definitely Kev, I do agree with that. Although the top trainers have to be given their due on the odd occasion. I don't see many articles or forum posts where it is described as a "Great training performance" by a trainer after winning a GP 1 or other (I could be corrected on that one) It is usually the driver who will get a mention. So I think those who write articles for the harness world are aware of the fact that the horse usually makeths the trainer and not the other way around. There are exceptions to this of course.

[hugdon]

Personally I applaud MP for being dominant and winning "everything". Hopefully it inspires others to try harder. I bet ya $2 that the Bonds were looking at ways as to why the Halls were dominant, thought about it and then set a plan in place and now look where they are! Hopefully there a more than a few stables across Australia that have a "rich" client or two who are at this moment ARE actively plotting the downfall of Mark Purdon. I know if I had squillions I'd run amok PRIVATE TRAINER etc etc. Once I was so sure I was winning one powerball and I'm out of here jackpot that I daydreamed about buying the entire catalogue at the Perth yearling sale all 100 odd. However I did not win so cannot plot anyone's downfall BUT I CAN DREAM and if I do hee har

[Messenger]

Not even Boort is safe :eek:

http://www.harness.org.au/meeting-results.cfm?mc=BT270117&ms=vic#BTC27011707

[Messenger]

The Purdons' have taken pity on Australia/Vic and have no runners in the last 2 at Melton tonight (nor the 3rd race or they would have been looking at driving or training 8 in a row)

http://www.harness.org.au/meeting-results.cfm?mc=MX280117&ms=vic

[The Escape Club]

The Purdons' have taken pity on Australia/Vic and have no runners in the last 2 at Melton tonight (nor the 3rd race or they would have been looking at driving or training 8 in a row)

http://www.harness.org.au/meeting-results.cfm?mc=MX280117&ms=vic

His 4 year old, Lets Chase The Dream won the last at Menangle breaking 1.50.

[Fan of Jate]

AS per post 32. I cant work out what the handicapper has done in the group 3 trot race but the kiwi horse was gifted this race due to its 20m handicap, connections must have been laughing their box off even before the race was run and won. Someone may be able to explain it in this forum.

[Showgrounds]

Interesting thread. While jealousy appears rife at the Purdon / Rasmussen success last night demonstrated how superior their horses are - and they as trainers.

The local 3 year-olds are just so-so this year; Motu Meteor is a nice horse but not one I'd rate as a genuine Derby colt in any other season. Jacks Legend started favourite over Vincent at Addington on Show Day - Vincent blew him away! Interesting comment on the TV - whoever it was said Vincent wouldn't have been in the top 5 3yos in the stable at the start of the season. Stupid comment - he won his only start (beating Ultimate Machete easily) before injury put him out. Was to have come here for the Australian Gold. Now is payback time, the Derby looks his to lose.

Lazarus is a bona-fide champion already and he will no doubt be remembered for many decades. At Menangle, the only horse to have beaten him TWICE won going 1:49.9 - Chase the Dream. How he gets assessed as a C3 is beyond me. Then again, the greatest crime a horse can commit in NZ is to be consistent and win races! The handicapping system ensures their careers are brief.

Somebody mentioned previously any trainer could win with Allstars horses. They probably could, just not with consistency and we tend to send our horses around to often. Check out the careers of all the Allstars team and you will see they are sparingly raced, eg, Smolda 64 starts, 50% win rate and rising 9 years! This can't be done without good, patient owners of course. Look at the depth of experience in the sport most of their owners have and you get a feel for what I am on about. No syndicates of 20 drinking mates from the local footy club who just want to see their colours go around. Just plenty of business people not devoid of a dollar and, usually, prior success with good horses.

Then there are the trainers and staff. No mugs allowed, obviously. Their training methods appear highly advanced. Mark has long been known as a perfectionist and Blacks A Fake did not achieve what he did just by going jiggy-joggy for half an our every morning with two hopplings and a day off every week. Nat is a great trainer in her own right and not one to tolerate pussys. A very brave trainer, indeed, one who takes an Allstar cast-off with the intent of improving them.

So, great trainers with incredibly good facilities and staff, plenty of impeccably bred, high quality yearlings coming through every season with cashed-up, patient owners who understand the pain and disappointment that can occur appears to be a large part of the stable's success. The horses always look great and appear fitter than many of their opposition. Any ordinary run appears to be forensically examined and you never hear weak excuses. And some will say luck, I say they make their own.

Good luck to them all, they are enjoying the times of their lives!

[KTQ]

On one of your points, we have horses trained in NZ and they don't not race for lack of trying. there are just NO races for them! we don't want our 2yos racing aged horses. The NZ handicapping system seriously sucks if you have a less than champion horse

[aussiebreno]

Interesting thread. While jealousy appears rife at the Purdon / Rasmussen success last night demonstrated how superior their horses are - and they as trainers.

The local 3 year-olds are just so-so this year; Motu Meteor is a nice horse but not one I'd rate as a genuine Derby colt in any other season. Jacks Legend started favourite over Vincent at Addington on Show Day - Vincent blew him away! Interesting comment on the TV - whoever it was said Vincent wouldn't have been in the top 5 3yos in the stable at the start of the season. Stupid comment - he won his only start (beating Ultimate Machete easily) before injury put him out. Was to have come here for the Australian Gold. Now is payback time, the Derby looks his to lose.

Lazarus is a bona-fide champion already and he will no doubt be remembered for many decades. At Menangle, the only horse to have beaten him TWICE won going 1:49.9 - Chase the Dream. How he gets assessed as a C3 is beyond me. Then again, the greatest crime a horse can commit in NZ is to be consistent and win races! The handicapping system ensures their careers are brief.

Somebody mentioned previously any trainer could win with Allstars horses. They probably could, just not with consistency and we tend to send our horses around to often. Check out the careers of all the Allstars team and you will see they are sparingly raced, eg, Smolda 64 starts, 50% win rate and rising 9 years! This can't be done without good, patient owners of course. Look at the depth of experience in the sport most of their owners have and you get a feel for what I am on about. No syndicates of 20 drinking mates from the local footy club who just want to see their colours go around. Just plenty of business people not devoid of a dollar and, usually, prior success with good horses.

Then there are the trainers and staff. No mugs allowed, obviously. Their training methods appear highly advanced. Mark has long been known as a perfectionist and Blacks A Fake did not achieve what he did just by going jiggy-joggy for half an our every morning with two hopplings and a day off every week. Nat is a great trainer in her own right and not one to tolerate pussys. A very brave trainer, indeed, one who takes an Allstar cast-off with the intent of improving them.

So, great trainers with incredibly good facilities and staff, plenty of impeccably bred, high quality yearlings coming through every season with cashed-up, patient owners who understand the pain and disappointment that can occur appears to be a large part of the stable's success. The horses always look great and appear fitter than many of their opposition. Any ordinary run appears to be forensically examined and you never hear weak excuses. And some will say luck, I say they make their own.

Good luck to them all, they are enjoying the times of their lives!
Agreed - the man is a genius and planned both of Smolda long term injuries.

[trish]

This is from Greg Hayes twitter.


Last 3 seasons Mark Purdon has had 143 starters in Australia. 87 winners and 35 placegetters for $4.75 million in stakes

[Messenger]

That is a 61% win rate, when you consider that there would have been a few times when they had 2+ horses in the same race, I think their success race would be close to 66%
or 2 out of 3 !

And we are pretty much talking about the Listed races!

Makes all the other trainers look like mugs and although a few are local buys (like Vincent) it makes you wonder whether it is worth the risk of having anything other than a NZ horse :confused:

[eliteblood]

Makes all the other trainers look like mugs and although a few are local buys (like Vincent) it makes you wonder whether it is worth the risk of having anything other than a NZ horse :confused:

I think it is more about the trainer Kevin rather than where the horses are bred. Smolda, Waikiki Beach and Vincent underline that, as does Mark's willingness to buy Australian bred yearlings.
I don't like seeing Australian industry funds being pilfered by Kiwis, but it softens the blow when his owners (quite a few who are Australians in any case) reinvest so strongly at our sales.

[trish]

In that case Trevor lets hope they buy yours & ours.

[eliteblood]

In that case Trevor lets hope they buy yours & ours.

Yes Trish, that would be nice :-)

[teecee]

AS per post 32. I cant work out what the handicapper has done in the group 3 trot race but the kiwi horse was gifted this race due to its 20m handicap, connections must have been laughing their box off even before the race was run and won. Someone may be able to explain it in this forum.

The reason is such that this Thread exists. There are two types of horse that All Stars bring to Australia. It is extremely expensive to bring a horse from NZ to race and hence they are the cream of the crop such as Lazarus, Have Faith in Me,and Dream About Me. THe others like Prince Fearless, Chase the Dream and Picadilly Princess are those able to take full advantage of the Australian Handicapping system. This is something the All Stars do with excellent success. These horses have won most of there races and stakes in 2 and 3 year old restricted age and group races in NZ. Whilst they are recognised in NZ for handicapping they are not in Australia, hence they seriously drop down the grades in Australia.
Post 37 suggests the NZ handicapping system sucks. Many Australians would be thinking the Australian system sucks when they understand it is that very system that allows All Stars to plunder your stakes and races of all grades.

All Stars dont bemoan your system when it works against them either. They look for races to suit the needs and abilities of their horses. A classic case in point is the campaign of Picadilly Princess in West Australia during the Interdoms. Her program was to take in two Group races for fillies and mares assessed at M1 and faster. Unfortunately for the connections including the breeder of such a valuable mare(already a dual Group 1 winner) she was assessed under the Australian system as M0. Remember she was a dual G1 winner but they were both Oaks races for 3yo fillies only. i.e. handicap system took no account of that. Hence All Stars looked to alternatives that met her M0 status. a race well down on her class with the expected result.

[Messenger]

I think it is more about the trainer Kevin rather than where the horses are bred. Smolda, Waikiki Beach and Vincent underline that, as does Mark's willingness to buy Australian bred yearlings.
I don't like seeing Australian industry funds being pilfered by Kiwis, but it softens the blow when his owners (quite a few who are Australians in any case) reinvest so strongly at our sales.

I am just stirring a bit Trevor. It is good to hear that quite a few of MP's owners are Australian so that their money may help the Oz industry provided they continue to spend at our sales.
If the NZ climate/grass is not a major factor, it will not be long before all the imported NZ blood over here produces as many champs as they seem to (per capita)

[teecee]

I think it is more about the trainer Kevin rather than where the horses are bred. Smolda, Waikiki Beach and Vincent underline that, as does Mark's willingness to buy Australian bred yearlings.
I don't like seeing Australian industry funds being pilfered by Kiwis, but it softens the blow when his owners (quite a few who are Australians in any case) reinvest so strongly at our sales.

Agreed. The Kiwi bench at the Australian sales has grown thanks to Mark and the success he is having with his Aussie purchases. This allows him to further plunder your wealth. Waikiki Beach is a case in point. One of the secrets of All Stars success is being able to place there horses for best effect. Whilst he won at Group 2 level on debut in NZ he was not really rated alongside his stable peers. He was Australian bred and sales product thus eligible for a number of lucrative series. By being so placed by his trainers to ensure his best opportunities a horse who may only have won 2 or 3 races in NZ managed to win 23 consecutively

[Messenger]

The reason is such that this Thread exists. There are two types of horse that All Stars bring to Australia. It is extremely expensive to bring a horse from NZ to race and hence they are the cream of the crop such as Lazarus, Have Faith in Me,and Dream About Me. THe others like Prince Fearless, Chase the Dream and Picadilly Princess are those able to take full advantage of the Australian Handicapping system. This is something the All Stars do with excellent success. These horses have won most of there races and stakes in 2 and 3 year old restricted age and group races in NZ. Whilst they are recognised in NZ for handicapping they are not in Australia, hence they seriously drop down the grades in Australia.
Post 37 suggests the NZ handicapping system sucks. Many Australians would be thinking the Australian system sucks when they understand it is that very system that allows All Stars to plunder your stakes and races of all grades.

All Stars dont bemoan your system when it works against them either. They look for races to suit the needs and abilities of their horses. A classic case in point is the campaign of Picadilly Princess in West Australia during the Interdoms. Her program was to take in two Group races for fillies and mares assessed at M1 and faster. Unfortunately for the connections including the breeder of such a valuable mare(already a dual Group 1 winner) she was assessed under the Australian system as M0. Remember she was a dual G1 winner but they were both Oaks races for 3yo fillies only. i.e. handicap system took no account of that. Hence All Stars looked to alternatives that met her M0 status. a race well down on her class with the expected result.

Yes Tony and with the far greater racing opportunities over here, it means there will always be a market for NZ horses. I guess it sort of makes up for the fewer racing ops and means many of your owner/breeders are sellers - don't they say that every NZ horse is for sale (for the right price)

[teecee]

[QUOTE=Showgrounds;49604]Interesting thread. While jealousy appears rife at the Purdon / Rasmussen success last night demonstrated how superior their horses are - and they as trainers.

Interesting comment on the TV - whoever it was said Vincent wouldn't have been in the top 5 3yos in the stable at the start of the season. Stupid comment - he won his only start (beating Ultimate Machete easily) before injury put him out.

That comment was initially made by the trainers in regards these horses at 2. That is not to say they are poor judges. It was simply a comment on how each of their youngsters rates against their contemporaries in the stable. At that same time Horses like Ultimate Machete and Waikiki Beach didn't rate in the 5 either. It is a graphic of the strength of their young horses coming up and each year is more astounding than the last.
Time has shown how AllStars can assess the best opportunities for their horses. Ultimate Machete developed to become No1 3yo as he grew into his massive frame and Waikiki Beach plundered 23 straight in Australia where his best options lay rather than just going round behind his "Better rated" stablemates.
While many can only see change when you have been away and come back, the All Stars trainers can see where their horses are at day in, day out and meet the changing needs of the individual horses placing them to greatest advantage for hose and connections.

Lazarus is a bona-fide champion already and he will no doubt be remembered for many decades. At Menangle, the only horse to have beaten him TWICE won going 1:49.9 - Chase the Dream. How he gets assessed as a C3 is beyond me.
[B]Refer post 44...

[teecee]

Yes Tony and with the far greater racing opportunities over here, it means there will always be a market for NZ horses. I guess it sort of makes up for the fewer racing ops and means many of your owner/breeders are sellers - don't they say that every NZ horse is for sale (for the right price)
That's true I can't remeber the name of a horse sold out of the Barry Purdon barn who was on the verge of NZ Cup class, had won over $400,000 including a Jewels race. He went to Queensland and raced as a very lowly assessment because the Australian Handicapping system said those races didn't count. They were age group Group 1-3 races. There is money to be made in Australia for NZ owners and thus a new burgeoning market.....Aussie trainers now looking to train NZ horses for their NZ owners. The message is "dont sell take advantage of the Australian conditions yourself" like the All Stars without the extra costs of return shipping and shorter campaigns.

[Fan of Jate]

My point was that the Australian system is very weak (read WAP) when it allows horses from another country to enter into races and get generous handicaps when obviously the horse has more ability than the locals and more to the point has actually proven it. I have been one of the few on this forum to actually praise the Purdon team and their success. My post was general in nature , not about the Purdon team. Ever heard the team "Burglar" in golf? well what is happening is the harness racing version of that. Furthermore, I often read about the Purdon success story being the cause of increased buying at the sales and the money is coming back to Australia etc etc, my radar tells me this " reversing of the money" explanation does not hold water and it's impact cannot be measured as a fact. I think the impact would be minimal.
What other sport allows this generosity to happen? Is there another sporting organisation in the world as stupid as ours that allows this type of thing to go on?

[aussiebreno]

My point was that the Australian system is very weak (read WAP) when it allows horses from another country to enter into races and get generous handicaps when obviously the horse has more ability than the locals and more to the point has actually proven it. I have been one of the few on this forum to actually praise the Purdon team and their success. My post was general in nature , not about the Purdon team. Ever heard the team "Burglar" in golf? well what is happening is the harness racing version of that. Furthermore, I often read about the Purdon success story being the cause of increased buying at the sales and the money is coming back to Australia etc etc, my radar tells me this " reversing of the money" explanation does not hold water and it's impact cannot be measured as a fact. I think the impact would be minimal.
What other sport allows this generosity to happen? Is there another sporting organisation in the world as stupid as ours that allows this type of thing to go on?Its not horses from other countries perse, it is horses who won less races over the stakes threshold as an older horse. Lennytheshark came back in an M0 after winning the NSW Derby, Magic Oats won an M0 at Melton despite several Saturday nighy wins at Albion Park. A few get through the cracks but by and large it is better than having a heap of horses reach their mark in lower prizemoney/juvenile events and being lost to the racetrack too early.

[eliteblood]

...... Furthermore, I often read about the Purdon success story being the cause of increased buying at the sales and the money is coming back to Australia etc etc, my radar tells me this " reversing of the money" explanation does not hold water and it's impact cannot be measured as a fact. I think the impact would be minimal......


I can count 11 yearlings bought from last year's APG sales by Mark Purdon and clients for a total spend of $743,500.

[Fan of Jate]

Not quite sure if that is a for or against- you don't actually say. There are usually 200 yearlings for sale at just one APG sale, say Melbourne for example, so they bought 5%, throw in a couple of high priced yearlings at $120,000 each...big deal. Most readers in this forum would have already known those sales figures. Too easy to find that information, so what about the amount of money going out?

[eliteblood]

Not quite sure if that is a for or against- you don't actually say. There are usually 200 yearlings for sale at just one APG sale, say Melbourne for example, so they bought 5%, throw in a couple of high priced yearlings at $120,000 each...big deal. Most readers in this forum would have already known those sales figures. Too easy to find that information, so what about the amount of money going out?

My post was in response to your earlier assertion "Furthermore, I often read about the Purdon success story being the cause of increased buying at the sales and the money is coming back to Australia etc etc, my radar tells me this " reversing of the money" explanation does not hold water and it's impact cannot be measured as a fact. I think the impact would be minimal". It was a statement of fact, for the benefit of the apparent minority who did not already have knowledge of the extent of Purdon connected spending at our sales.
Whether it is for or against your assertion will depend on whether or not you regard $743k as a significant amount of money.
For you and anyone else who regards this amount as insignificant it supports your assertion.
Personally, I believe the $743k is a big deal, making up approx 8% of the total sales revenue. So for me, the figures refute your assertion. The argument that a significant amount of money does flow back into Australia does hold water and the effect is not minimal.

[Fan of Jate]

Both of your responses have been very feeble. I wrote a post with a few questions in it and you picked the "low hanging fruit" then went back and had a look at past sales results, came up with a "statement of fact" after proving that you could count and in an attempt to support your post. You are now trying to justify your second response that there is a difference of opinion due to whether the dollar amount stated from the sales is significant depending on one's own financial situation. I expected much better and I refute your assertion about my assertion.

[trish]

Another from Greg Hayes twitter.


Another Purdon stat - since start of 13/14 in Oz - 179 starters for $5,772,072 prize money. Which equates to $32,246 per starter

[Messenger]

Both of your responses have been very feeble. I wrote a post with a few questions in it and you picked the "low hanging fruit" then went back and had a look at past sales results, came up with a "statement of fact" after proving that you could count and in an attempt to support your post. You are now trying to justify your second response that there is a difference of opinion due to whether the dollar amount stated from the sales is significant depending on one's own financial situation. I expected much better and I refute your assertion about my assertion.

I cannot see how stating facts is feeble Pat and I am sure that you can do much better than lead with such a sentence. Next, after asking Trevor whether his previous post was for or against, he told you but you don't seem happy about that either. Go ahead and disagree but let's not turn debates into contests

[Fan of Jate]

Beautifully moderated once again Kev.

[Messenger]

Beautifully moderated once again Kev.

Thanks Pat. You know I am big on 'friendly'. I used to follow Carlton on Big Footy but for people who supposedly supported the same team, it sure got ugly sometimes.

Here is an embarrassing link that makes you wonder how this guy ever became a moderator! Teecee makes a point which I now live by and would summarize as 'valuing others'. The way I put it into practice when replying is by re-reading what I have written and asking myself if I would like to receive that reply. Moderating occasionally requires us to make somewhat difficult posts and I very much admire the way you replied Pat

http://www.harnessracingforum.com/showthread.php?6220-Messenger-Issues-with-moderation

[hugdon]

With tongue firm ensconced in cheek and just for fun, if Mark Purdon win all races in which he is represented tonight at Melton (left the southern star alone) the stable will pick up a cool 564K Not bad for a nights work!! Good luck in the cup Adam

[Beltane]

By my calculations, the Mark Purdon stable only picked up $125,700 prizemoney at Melton on Saturday night. Lazurus contributed $60k of that total on what was a rather off-night for the Allstars.

[Fan of Jate]

Be interesting to know factually how much Purdon and clients spent at the Melbourne yearling sales 2017

[Messenger]

Be interesting to know factually how much Purdon and clients spent at the Melbourne yearling sales 2017

We have only had the Melbourne sale so far and I don't know who his clients are but as TC posted elsewhere, here are the results

http://www.apgold.com.au/yearling-sales/sales-results/2017-sales-results/melbourne/

The Males, the Strides, Five Arrows syndicate, Geoff Webster, Larry Eastman, and the Butterworths were some of the bigger spenders

[Showgrounds]

Be interesting to know factually how much Purdon and clients spent at the Melbourne yearling sales 2017

Melbourne APG-Sunday February 5

cArt Major-Vista Bella -Badlands Hanover. Neil Pilcher $A55,000

c Art Major-Alta Calypso-Village Jasper. Kennard Syndicates $A37,000

c Bettor's Delight-Catapult (USA) -Artsplace Neil Pilcher $A47,000

[Njcstables]

Melbourne APG-Sunday February 5

cArt Major-Vista Bella -Badlands Hanover. Neil Pilcher $A55,000

c Art Major-Alta Calypso-Village Jasper. Kennard Syndicates $A37,000

c Bettor's Delight-Catapult (USA) -Artsplace Neil Pilcher $A47,000

Merv butterworth also indicated in his interview after the sale that the one he bought was also going to purdons.
Lot 105
Also lot 165 (another for kennards)

[teecee]

http://www.hrnz.co.nz/news-and-events/latest-news/5103-sydney-in-the-pipeline-for-jones

Mark Jones is setting up a Sydney stable

[Messenger]

HRNSW decided to take back $15k from Mark Purdon's booty

http://www.harness.org.au/news-article.cfm?news_id=34046

[Showgrounds]

Need to punt that one to the Stewards Report thread, Kev.

$15K is some sort of whack! Another NZ contribution to NSW Harness Racing.

Back on topic, Vincent was a $130K purchase at the 2015 Sydney Australian Gold Sale. So nobody can begrudge this "NZ" horse grabbing back a lazy $246,000 in stakes from 5 NSW starts this season. Especially so when the money goes to his Victorian owners. What goes around comes around.

[Messenger]

Need to punt that one to the Stewards Report thread, Kev.

$15K is some sort of whack! Another NZ contribution to NSW Harness Racing.

Back on topic, Vincent was a $130K purchase at the 2015 Sydney Australian Gold Sale. So nobody can begrudge this "NZ" horse grabbing back a lazy $246,000 in stakes from 5 NSW starts this season. Especially so when the money goes to his Victorian owners. What goes around comes around.

I would have put it in the Stewards thread but I did not want people to miss what is currently the last post in that thread :)

[Messenger]

If the ownership is well spread it could be some consolation but I cannot see how it can be good for other trainers for one if the following domination continues

http://www.harnesslink.com/Australia/Plans-in-place-for-All-Stars-onslaught

[Fan of Jate]

Like my trainer said to me last week, there is nowhere to hide now, you go to a country track as far away from the city as you can get and there is a kiwi horse purchased for $200,000 waiting for you in a $3500 race, sometimes two of them. Once upon a time the hobby trainer and owner could get a win on the board against similar opposition, not any more.

[teecee]

If the ownership is well spread it could be some consolation but I cannot see how it can be good for other trainers for one if the following domination continues

http://www.harnesslink.com/Australia/Plans-in-place-for-All-Stars-onslaught

Whilst the sentiments of this thread are based around ALL Stars they are not necessarily alone.....


Compliments of ALL Stars website...
ALL STARS "NOT GOOD FOR THE GAME"-ITS A MYTH
(EDITORIAL)
You hear it wherever you go from a vocal minority-the amazing success of Mark and Natalie is "not good for the game". It is hard to understand what this actually means given aiming to win and excellence in achieving that is what horse racing is supposed to be about. But it appears that dominating of Premier days leaving rival owners out of pocket is one factor.
While the real sportsmen and women in the industry applaud the remarkable chain of success unparallelled in 130 years of our history rivals frustration over what they call the "blue army" is understandable. Mark and Natalie's charges are always hard to beat But "not good for the game ?" -its a myth.
In 2017 All Stars won 50 Premier races, a staggering feat. But in fact horses from Rolleston started in less than 50 per cent of the Premier races held. That left 80 Premier races to be contested without any All Stars colours in the field. Hardly extreme domination-more extreme strike rate, which is quite a different thing.
Domination by large stables,hardly new, is as inevitable in harness racing as it has been with the thoroughbreds. It takes superior horsemanship and the business savvy to capitalise.The forces behind it-especially the dominance of the Yearling Sales now almost a trainer's greatest challenge of the season -and the financial power syndication brings, are similar. It's progress. Indeed relying on a torch-bearing stable like All Stars to raise the profile of the game is far superior to having a series of small teams with little national profile.
Of course this sort of thing is not new as Roy and Barry could tell you. Success always brings envy as well as admiration and success on the All Stars scale adds to both.
Their success can be put down to expert selection of yearlings (more like a genius); expert development of young stars but equally with older ones; patience success brings; a vision of how harness racing is developing at the top level; round the clock planning and hands on work ethic amounting to enormous dedication and so the attraction to owners willing to invest.
Most thinking administrators, far from wanting to blunt the All Stars success (as the new rating system has) know encouraging their long term committment to our industry is essential if they want to be on the big stage.
Stats show there are still plenty of races left to win for others if their horses are good enough. All Stars being "Not good for the game" is not an excuse if they are not.
(Site Editor)

This is relevant not just to NZ but across Australasia as a whole..

Your own research from another thread

We can see the AllStars dominate (and it is highly unlikely that this includes the $933k they have won in Oz) but I was surprised to see that there are 26 trainers who have won in excess of $100k in stakes (even if they are 5 months into their season compared to our 4)
We have to remember that NZ in total only run as many races as Victoria

[Messenger]

I only skimmed it after reading "While the real sportsmen ....."
Manipulative arguing to suggest that all that do not agree are not

If you're not sure whether they are taking all the cream, sort the premiership table by prizemoney

[Showgrounds]

Every participant in the industry is welcome to challenge for the title of top dog. However, 99% of them have neither the inclination, knowledge, skills, demeanor, energy and the other 11 secret herbs and spices (no, psychological ones, not pharmaceutical) necessary for them to topple the All Stars. No doubt it is the owners and the horses behind the success, witnessed by their participation at Australian yearling sales in recent years. The spoils, in earlier years, produced Smolda while recently Our Waikiki Beach and Vincent have plundered sires stakes. No doubt yearling sales vendors have been delighted by the stable and its owners being so active. Good luck to all concerned.

[Messenger]

Trevor, my problem is that I am not a forgiving chap and I don't ever want to see harness have a scandal of the magnitude of the Tour de France (again)

http://www.harnesslink.com/News/MARK-PURDON-PLEADS-GUILTY-27448

[Showgrounds]

I understand you are not a forgiving person. However, you are drawing a long bow.

There is another thread here called How Can We Improve Harness Racing, or something like it. I would suggest we celebrate the deeds of a stable, its owners and horses that have put a drastically needed spotlight on all that is positive with the sport - champion horses. Or, we could continue to drag down tall poppies which is one thing we do in this business with extreme efficiency. Would you prefer headlines about the success of Purdon's horses or ones like the Aquanita charges that are dominating front pages in every state today?

The incident you mention culminated in tragedy for all concerned. Sometimes, hopefully never, people make decisions in their lives that have dire consequences. Some cannot live with those consequences, some ignore them and others learn from them. Those that learn from them must also learn to wear the stain as they move on with life.

[aussiebreno]

I understand you are not a forgiving person. However, you are drawing a long bow.

There is another thread here called How Can We Improve Harness Racing, or something like it. I would suggest we celebrate the deeds of a stable, its owners and horses that have put a drastically needed spotlight on all that is positive with the sport - champion horses. Or, we could continue to drag down tall poppies which is one thing we do in this business with extreme efficiency. Would you prefer headlines about the success of Purdon's horses or ones like the Aquanita charges that are dominating front pages in every state today?

The incident you mention culminated in tragedy for all concerned. Sometimes, hopefully never, people make decisions in their lives that have dire consequences. Some cannot live with those consequences, some ignore them and others learn from them. Those that learn from them must also learn to wear the stain as they move on with life.
I can think of worse headlines than Aquanita.

"Millionaire Kiwi owner found dead after being charged in blue-magic furore"

[Showgrounds]

Yep, dire consequences as I said. It will be very interesting no to watch the thoroughbred industry wriggle its way through the latest sham. Does it not perform raceday Co2 testing on course? How has it come to this?

Oh, I forgot. The thoroughbreds are supposed to be clean and the trots are supposed to be crooked. I better get back in my cupboard.

[aussiebreno]

Yep, dire consequences as I said. It will be very interesting no to watch the thoroughbred industry wriggle its way through the latest sham. Does it not perform raceday Co2 testing on course? How has it come to this?

Oh, I forgot. The thoroughbreds are supposed to be clean and the trots are supposed to be crooked. I better get back in my cupboard.
Annoys me no end gallops have a cleaner image. However that wasn't the point, the point was Purdon headlines are not good for the sport. Not tall poppy to shoot down Purdon at all. Shooting down of Purdon is largely because of this

http://www.harnesslink.com/News/MARK-PURDON-PLEADS-GUILTY-27448

With this over his head there is no way any Purdon headlines can ever be good for the sport.

It is a mixture of humorous, condescending and disrespectful to put out print media that states "It takes superior horsemanship and the business savvy to capitalise" to describe your operations when you have past indiscretions.

[Messenger]

I understand you are not a forgiving person. However, you are drawing a long bow.

There is another thread here called How Can We Improve Harness Racing, or something like it. I would suggest we celebrate the deeds of a stable, its owners and horses that have put a drastically needed spotlight on all that is positive with the sport - champion horses. Or, we could continue to drag down tall poppies which is one thing we do in this business with extreme efficiency. Would you prefer headlines about the success of Purdon's horses or ones like the Aquanita charges that are dominating front pages in every state today?

The incident you mention culminated in tragedy for all concerned. Sometimes, hopefully never, people make decisions in their lives that have dire consequences. Some cannot live with those consequences, some ignore them and others learn from them. Those that learn from them must also learn to wear the stain as they move on with life.

Trevor, the problem is that we cannot celebrate the deeds of a stable that has a record - it is why athletics could not celebrate Justin Gatlin beating Usain Bolt at the World Championships. Sure it was a fair while ago but if that 's***' was to hit the fan nowadays there is no way he would get a mere 12 months. This is why some would like to see disqualification for serious offences result in loss of license forever

[Showgrounds]

Trevor, the problem is that we cannot celebrate the deeds of a stable that has a record - it is why athletics could not celebrate Justin Gatlin beating Usain Bolt at the World Championships. Sure it was a fair while ago but if that 's***' was to hit the fan nowadays there is no way he would get a mere 12 months. This is why some would like to see disqualification for serious offences result in loss of license forever

Might as well shut up shop, then. Those of us who have been actively involved with horses for decades know that if they have never been caught doing anything illegal then the odds are shortening that they soon will. Put this down to the crusade of Dr Phillip Swann back in the 1980's which resulted in rules being changed to reflect it is the trainers' duty to present the horse for racing drug free. That was all drug, including therapeutic ones. Why is betting allowed of football when their would rarely being a player in the AFL not on some sort of painkiller or anti-inflammatory. At least a footballer can tell the club doctor where it hurts. Horses can't do that (unless it's name is Mr ED - of course, of course).

We have poor older horses running in open class races and claimers all over the country just to make up the numbers. Is that good for the punting public, or the image of the sport when they invariably start to tire and drop out when crunch time hits in the last lap of a race?

The widespread use of Swann's simplistic rule has, in my honest opinion, must partially take the blame for the loss of many industry participants over the years. The speed of horses has increased dramatically over the past four decades; nobody gets a warm feeling any more in their nether regions when their horse breaks 2 minutes. Unfortunately, the rules have stagnated for much of this time. The practice of milkshaking was pretty widespread among our old friends, the needy and the greedy, during the late '80's / early '90's especially in states like SA. It wasn't so much the bicarb soda (it is no wonder drug), it was what was added to it that mattered. Unfortunately, swabbing could not detect the additives only the bicarb that masked the true culprit. So, they introduced an acceptable level of bicarb detectable in the blood. A very smart filly of mine was always just below the limit through her natural blood levels. Prior to then, we used to use off the shelf products like Staminade the day before a race and the day after to stop horses from dehydrating. Nobody ever thought of it as "cheating"; we were just looking after the horse. These days, you have to be very careful in how you "look after the horse"!

The real blight on the game, though, is the failure to recognize most our equine athletes bleed internally. Just like human ones when they perform at extreme levels under stress. Unfortunately, those that police our sport these days are not horsemen of old who understand the stresses horses go through just to get to racing stage let alone win or be competitive. I'd love to hand any steward a horse and a set of harness (without notice) and ask them to gear it up and put it in the cart. Would be great on U-Tube.

The definition of a horse bleeding in Australia is when a steward observes blood coming from either nostril. The official "cure" is a 3 month ban - no recommendation for a course of treatment. If the horse comes back to racing they usually perform below their former self. Usually, they are still bleeding but undetected. In the North America, the horse is notified as a bleeder and can continue to race on Lasix which prevents most bleeding. That has been the case for many decades. Unfortunately, our "substance free" stance protects only the punter but not the horses.

On the other hand, Kev, the needy and the greedy will still try and find that competitive edge. The latest bicarb "scandal" will come and go. The bigger scandals have been the Cobalt and Blue Magic ones. One problem - has a horse EVER produced a positive test to either after WINNING a race? Didn't think so! Perhaps reviewing the current rules re supplements and regulated therapeutic treatments would give EVERY horse, trainer and owner the competitive edge they seek.

And then come down harder on the needy and the greedy! Just sayin'.

Let ye who has committed no sin cast the first stone.

[aussiebreno]

Might as well shut up shop, then. Those of us who have been actively involved with horses for decades know that if they have never been caught doing anything illegal then the odds are shortening that they soon will. Put this down to the crusade of Dr Phillip Swann back in the 1980's which resulted in rules being changed to reflect it is the trainers' duty to present the horse for racing drug free. That was all drug, including therapeutic ones. Why is betting allowed of football when their would rarely being a player in the AFL not on some sort of painkiller or anti-inflammatory. At least a footballer can tell the club doctor where it hurts. Horses can't do that (unless it's name is Mr ED - of course, of course).

We have poor older horses running in open class races and claimers all over the country just to make up the numbers. Is that good for the punting public, or the image of the sport when they invariably start to tire and drop out when crunch time hits in the last lap of a race?

The widespread use of Swann's simplistic rule has, in my honest opinion, must partially take the blame for the loss of many industry participants over the years. The speed of horses has increased dramatically over the past four decades; nobody gets a warm feeling any more in their nether regions when their horse breaks 2 minutes. Unfortunately, the rules have stagnated for much of this time. The practice of milkshaking was pretty widespread among our old friends, the needy and the greedy, during the late '80's / early '90's especially in states like SA. It wasn't so much the bicarb soda (it is no wonder drug), it was what was added to it that mattered. Unfortunately, swabbing could not detect the additives only the bicarb that masked the true culprit. So, they introduced an acceptable level of bicarb detectable in the blood. A very smart filly of mine was always just below the limit through her natural blood levels. Prior to then, we used to use off the shelf products like Staminade the day before a race and the day after to stop horses from dehydrating. Nobody ever thought of it as "cheating"; we were just looking after the horse. These days, you have to be very careful in how you "look after the horse"!

The real blight on the game, though, is the failure to recognize most our equine athletes bleed internally. Just like human ones when they perform at extreme levels under stress. Unfortunately, those that police our sport these days are not horsemen of old who understand the stresses horses go through just to get to racing stage let alone win or be competitive. I'd love to hand any steward a horse and a set of harness (without notice) and ask them to gear it up and put it in the cart. Would be great on U-Tube.

The definition of a horse bleeding in Australia is when a steward observes blood coming from either nostril. The official "cure" is a 3 month ban - no recommendation for a course of treatment. If the horse comes back to racing they usually perform below their former self. Usually, they are still bleeding but undetected. In the North America, the horse is notified as a bleeder and can continue to race on Lasix which prevents most bleeding. That has been the case for many decades. Unfortunately, our "substance free" stance protects only the punter but not the horses.

On the other hand, Kev, the needy and the greedy will still try and find that competitive edge. The latest bicarb "scandal" will come and go. The bigger scandals have been the Cobalt and Blue Magic ones. One problem - has a horse EVER produced a positive test to either after WINNING a race? Didn't think so! Perhaps reviewing the current rules re supplements and regulated therapeutic treatments would give EVERY horse, trainer and owner the competitive edge they seek.

And then come down harder on the needy and the greedy! Just sayin'.

Let ye who has committed no sin cast the first stone.
I think you will find most people take a dimmer view of performance enhancers as opposed to painkillers. Penalties reflect this. Positives for bute do not ruin the game, its the other stuff.

Concerns re bleeders are legitimate.

Plenty of winning horses have provided positive swabs to blue magic and cobalt. :confused::confused:

[aussiebreno]

Trevor, the problem is that we cannot celebrate the deeds of a stable that has a record - it is why athletics could not celebrate Justin Gatlin beating Usain Bolt at the World Championships. Sure it was a fair while ago but if that 's***' was to hit the fan nowadays there is no way he would get a mere 12 months. This is why some would like to see disqualification for serious offences result in loss of license forever

Betting you wouldn't see Lance Armstrongs face on an official advertisement for the Tour De France. Beats me that media let alone HRNSW employed media will promote people who have had past indiscretions.

[Showgrounds]

Name some of those horses, please, Breno.

[aussiebreno]

Name some of those horses, please, Breno.

Are you actually trolling right now?

Blue Magic in 2004:

Pirates Treasure: Moonee Valley, January 9;
Bavard: Moonee Valley, January 16, ;
Angus Puddleduck: Maryborough, January 28;
Rare Flyer: Cobram, February 5;
Ken Way: Kilmore, March 17;
Ken Way: Maryborough, March 31;
Pirates Treasure: Yarra Valley, April 11.

Cobalt 2014:

Coogee Coogee Young January 24
The Big Marn Menangle January 21
Major Denial Goulburn January 27
Earls Reign Albury March 1
Saucy Legend Menangle Feb 25
Tiny Tinker Newcastle Feb 28



Just a small sample.

[teecee]

Trevor, my problem is that I am not a forgiving chap and I don't ever want to see harness have a scandal of the magnitude of the Tour de France (again)

http://www.harnesslink.com/News/MARK-PURDON-PLEADS-GUILTY-27448


For those who have forgotten / wonder what it is that some can't forget after 12 years......

http://www.jca.org.nz/race-days/dummy-location_2001-01-01/hearing_dummy-location_2001-01-01_3671/?searchterm=Mark Purdon*

[Showgrounds]

The idea of a forum is to allow people to share their opinion, or so I thought. To put forward your opinion, only to be accused of trolling, is not a forum - it's group-think.

Keep thinking alike of that is what you want in life.

[Amlin]

Friends of mine bred Our Waikiki Beach. The two subsequent foals from the mare have different owners and different trainers, so there is clearly more than one group of people willing to pay good money for the chance of owning (perhaps) a good horse.

[Messenger]

The idea of a forum is to allow people to share their opinion, or so I thought. To put forward your opinion, only to be accused of trolling, is not a forum - it's group-think.

Keep thinking alike of that is what you want in life.

Please keep sharing your opinions Trevor, I could have deleted Breno's 'trolling' or edited it to 'joking' but I left it as I can be too heavy handed.
I cannot see how a poster or two disagreeing with you amounts to group-think. We may hear from others who agree with you but I must say that I have had posts that everybody disagreed with and I never thought "this is not a forum"

[aussiebreno]

The idea of a forum is to allow people to share their opinion, or so I thought. To put forward your opinion, only to be accused of trolling, is not a forum - it's group-think.

Keep thinking alike of that is what you want in life.
Stating there was no positive swabs for Blue Magic and cobalt is not opinion , it is facts that were blatantly wrong.

[arlington]

Not Blue Magic but blood related? Couldn't see how this helps the All Stars spin
28 June 2017 Trainer Mark Purdon - Inquiry Concluded
http://www.harness.org.au/media-room/news-article/?news_id=34046


Bleeders
VIC - Post-race endoscopic examinations
http://www.harness.org.au/media-room/news-article/?news_id=35903
Now if this was America this initiative would help differentiate between the true bleeders and the horses that get their nostrils pricked to go on Lasix as a performance enhancer. What are the stats in America...4% are true bleeders but 90% are given Lasix hmmm. Every other racing jurisdiction has Lasix banned and even the Hambletonian. Of the 4% who are true bleeders, Lasix might only be helpful for a percentage of those.

In Aus, certainly in Vic, the sign of blood at the nostrils is investigated further by an endoscopic exam before the horse is ruled to have bled. But I guess the point is, or what might be being debated is, was Blue Magic really for bleeders? Did others who got pinged also try to use that defence? And I suppose all that got pinged for aminocaproic acid had bleeders, confirmed by a stable endoscope diagnosis?

My thoughts are we should applaud Dr Swann's initiative. Those participants who may have left, well, in most cases it may have been good riddance. Could well be Dr Swann laid the foundations for Vic harness racing having the opportunity to be a leader in drug detection and clean racing. Pretty sure it was Brant Dunshea, former HRV Chief Steward, who was behind the first detection of EPO in Australian racing.

The "simplistic" rule of the trainer's duty to present drug free not really having changed since Dr Swann's days. What has changed is in a lot of instances the lawyers finding any loop hole or bunny to shift the trainers guiltiness. I agree, it is a somewhat precarious rule that I'm sure stewards/integrity departments would like to replace with the perfect rule.

But, like it or not, especially these days, the wider community's expectation of animal care is pretty well limited to hay, oats and water.

And whilst I have strayed from the thread title, Trevor, your broad brush stroke about stewards and youtube, there are stewards who were trainer drivers.

[arlington]

Please keep sharing your opinions Trevor, I could have deleted Breno's 'trolling' or edited it to 'joking' but I left it as I can be too heavy handed.
I cannot see how a poster or two disagreeing with you amounts to group-think. We may hear from others who agree with you but I must say that I have had posts that everybody disagreed with and I never thought "this is not a forum"

Just my thoughts, I reckon editing would have been too heavy handed.

[teecee]

This thread is now on an ever increasing tangent away from the issue for which it was established.
Back on track eh.

There are plenty of NZ trainers collecting plenty of Aussie dollars. I'm even contemplating getting my share. After all the Australian Handicapping system is like a big bright star begging me to follow it across the ditch so why not.
Of course it costs so much to get there, pay all the exhorbitant licensing etc fees etc so it's only for the very best. Perhaps that is why some believe as the thread title suggests take ALL the prizemoney.

This is an issue Australian authorities need to address if they dont want to cater for and welcome their Kiwi cousins.
Of course it does work both ways. More Australian runners in The NZ Cup have won more often than not.
More NZ based Interdoms have been won by Aussies when they have runners in the finals.
A place is reserved for an Australian in EACH of the Jewels category.

[Messenger]

This thread is now on an ever increasing tangent away from the issue for which it was established.
Back on track eh.

There are plenty of NZ trainers collecting plenty of Aussie dollars. I'm even contemplating getting my share. After all the Australian Handicapping system is like a big bright star begging me to follow it across the ditch so why not.
Of course it costs so much to get there, pay all the exhorbitant licensing etc fees etc so it's only for the very best. Perhaps that is why some believe as the thread title suggests take ALL the prizemoney.

This is an issue Australian authorities need to address if they dont want to cater for and welcome their Kiwi cousins.
Of course it does work both ways. More Australian runners in The NZ Cup have won more often than not.
More NZ based Interdoms have been won by Aussies when they have runners in the finals.
A place is reserved for an Australian in EACH of the Jewels category.

TC is Back - soon to be appearing at cinemas/tracks in Australia :eek:

[arlington]

TC is Back - soon to be appearing at cinemas/tracks in Australia :eek:

A politically diplomatic entrance Kev. Could teecee be Barnaby's brother?!

[Messenger]

Not really this thread but you can see why I put it here

The All Stars won 8 out of the 9 races they contested on New Zealand Cup day today including the Big one. They also claimed a trifecta and three quinellas.
Domination by one stable can never be good for the industry

https://infohorse.hrnz.co.nz/datahr/results/111332rs.htm

[Dot]

Well that’s a post Kev that should bring TC back out of the woodwork.

It took The Fixer and Dream About Me to beat Tiger Tara in the big one though, watch the start and what do you think happens if The Fixer and Dream About Me aren’t from the same stable? Dream About Me makes sure The Fixer can’t get out from behind Star Galleria for mine. Well done Kevin Pizzutto and Todd McCarthy, Tiger Tara went sensational.

[Showgrounds]

It was probably the most average NZ Cup field in memory, no real champions, some genuine Grand Circuit horses (Tiger Tara, Dream About Me, etc) and a lot of wannabes that would have been in the Junior Free For All in other years. It highlighted the hole that has emerged in NZ's open class ranks this year.

Thefixer won in exactly the same way he beat Vincent on Cup day 2 years ago - up the sprint lane. I thought the All Stars' had been pretty quiet this season until the last 4 weeks. A look tonight at the trainers'premiership shows 101 starts, 32 wins, 31 placings. Incredible numbers with lots of quinellas and trifectas, no doubt. In many ways, a big fish in a small pond but 8 wins from 9 races is some sort of effort on the country's biggest race day.

[Messenger]

The NZers have achieved something we dream of ie the equivalent of a Melbourne Cup
It may not be a public holiday but is part of show week and possibly the biggest day on the Canterbury social calendar. Maybe it is more the equivalent of Flemington's Oaks day as it pulls a very social crowd on what is supposed to be a work day.

(You have to hate the 'cheats lane' when the placegetters deserve the win more)

[gutwagon]

The NZers have achieved something we dream of ie the equivalent of a Melbourne Cup
It may not be a public holiday but is part of show week and possibly the biggest day on the Canterbury social calendar. Maybe it is more the equivalent of Flemington's Oaks day as it pulls a very social crowd on what is supposed to be a work day.

(You have to hate the 'cheats lane' when the placegetters deserve the win more)
Bit like the Kilmore Cup was back in it's day before the experts fixed it !

[Messenger]

I used to love the Kilmore Cup. Didn't Kilmore once have a big day meet on American Independence day too

[Showgrounds]

Traditional Kilmore Cups on a Monday afternoon were great in the day and usually featured the fist 2 year old events of the season. Crowds were always huge and it had a great picnic atmosphere.

However, NZ Cup Day is more akin to VRC Derby Day; people dress up to the nines and the crowd has Addington bursting at the seams.

Kilmore Cups of old were more like an end of year footy trips, with half the crowd in a done-for before the first leg of the daily double. Great day, but lacking somewhat in class. Not that this matters, everybody enjoyed themselves some just a bit more than is sociably acceptable today.

[gutwagon]

I've never noticed much "class" at Derby or Melbourne Cup days. Just barefooted drunk once a year punters riding wheelie bins in a sea of vomit !

[Showgrounds]

Been a long time since I've been to the Spring Carnival, but you're right Rick. They start the day pretty and end up pretty ugly. Best summed up by the Kath and Kim episode when Kim says "Mum! You've got carrot in your fascinator!"

Yuk.