What Does It cost to Race a Pacer

[p plater]

It may be interesting to hear from those actively involved to relate their knowledge in this regard. To get a group together to race a pacer, what would be the projected chances of making a quid.
The obvious costs are Trainers fees, shoeing etc, then from prizemoney you must subtract trainers percentage,driver percentage, driver fee. How much is left to cover costs?

What standard of performance is required to make it work. Lets say a pacer of moderate ability. Everyone dreams of a champ but lets look at the greater number of racing stock.

Replies to this could help to sell the idea of getting involved in the sport, not just for fun but make that quid.

[Smoken]

Excellent thread Bailey! I have always wondered about this!

[Messenger]

I am afraid I have to be a party-pooper and state that anyone getting into ownership to make a quid not just for fun has a 95% chance of being disappointed.
If you are only going into it to make a quid then think of it as being a bit like tattslotto - you have to have a ticket to keep the dream alive but it is a real longshot that it is going to come true

[Adaptor]

From the Bendigo Harness Racing Club website: www.bhrc.com.au


What a Beauty: Bendigo Owner's Race Syndicated Stars

From Bendigo owner Tim Coates
I was introduced to harness racing in the 1990s by passionate harness racing identity Alan Prentice. We took a 10% share of leased horses that were trained in Bendigo by Gary Donaldson. We had quite a few wins, but raising four children with my wife Linda became a priority during that period of time.
in 2010 I was invited to join a syndicate to lease and race an Armbro Operative/Secret Life filly. We were also offered at share in a LIve or Die/Larrakeyah filly.
These were subsequently named Beauty Secret and The Good Times both trained at Ballarat by Emma Stewart. We were so pleased that we said yes to both.

They have since gone on to win over 40 races between them.
Beauty Secret ( pictured above) 53 starts: 24 wins , 10 seconds, 4 thirds for $391.336 to date and is now the second fastest female in Australasia due to her second to Adore Me in the Ladyship Miles lasr Sunday
The Good Times: 47 starts, 17 wins, 7 seconds, 3 thirds for $178,004 to date.
The horses are owned by Bruce and Craig Cameron and Peter Gleeson.
Since purchasing a 10% share in both "Beauty" and "Goodie" the Camerons have bred and extended their stable to 12 horses with many more foals and yearlings to follow.
Other horses to do well include:
Major Secret: 20 starts, 10 wins, 4 seconds, 2 thirds, including the 2014 NSW Pacer's Derby, and the 2015 Central Victorian Championship.
Lovelist:10 starts, 6 wins, 1 third
Punchline: 21 starts,, 11 wins, three seconds and three thirds

I get so much pleasure in watching syndicate members involvement in following the horses, and we have made so many new friends in NSW, South Australia and closer to home in Victoria.
Yes, we have been very fortunate,and we have had our fair share of luck. But the buzz and enjoyment of just one winner, your horse going over the line first is hard to put into words.
Leasing a horse with friends is a great way for social interaction,and may provide you with many fantastic moments and memories at the track.
Video: Beauty Secret beats The Good Times in Race 7 at Ballarat on January 30th
http://www.harness.org.au/meeting-results.cfm?mc=BA300115&ms=vic

Beauty Secret ( below)
Interested in owning, or leasing and racing a trotter or pacer?
Contact Harness Racing Victoria Raceapaper: http://www.raceapacer.com.au/raceapacer/

[p plater]

I am afraid I have to be a party-pooper and state that anyone getting into ownership to make a quid not just for fun has a 95% chance of being disappointed.
If you are only going into it to make a quid then think of it as being a bit like tattslotto - you have to have a ticket to keep the dream alive but it is a real longshot that it is going to come true

Kev, I'm not talking about winning tattslotto....but to go with your reply...those little returns each week,month etc that keep you trying, without damaging the weekly budget. What performance standard would be required vs costs.

[Messenger]

The average stakesmoney per starter for 2013-14 was $9,809. After you take out all those expenses the average horse is in the red I am afraid
Note that that is per starter so to give yourself a chance at that you would probably want to buy yourself a going proposition for many do not make it to the start
This is why we should be picking up owners/breeders in limousines and wining and dining them at the track for nicks as they are 'supporting' the industry that we all enjoy

http://www.harness.org.au/hra/annual/public/stats/stakes_info.pdf

[Messenger]

Kev, I'm not talking about winning tattslotto....but to go with your reply...those little returns each week,month etc that keep you trying, without damaging the weekly budget. What performance standard would be required vs costs.

I am not the right one to be answering that - I got out of ownership almost as quick as I got into it (many years ago). You need Paul, Rich, Grant, Robert, Wayne, Danno, Ben, Leigh, David, Greg, Harvey, Adam ........ to reply to this.

[p plater]

The average stakesmoney per starter for 2013-14 was $9,809. After you take out all those expenses the average horse is in the red I am afraid
Note that that is per starter so to give yourself a chance at that you would probably want to buy yourself a going proposition for many do not make it to the start
This is why we should be picking up owners/breeders in limousines and wining and dining them at the track for nicks as they are 'supporting' the industry that we all enjoy

http://www.harness.org.au/hra/annual/public/stats/stakes_info.pdf

Can't argue with that.

What does surprise from those stats is over 50% are winners, only 11.7 starts per year and an average of $ 838 per start.

[arlington]

Just to get the ball rolling and keep the dream alive.

I can't contribute much in regards to costs of having a horse trained but as my name was mentioned. For me, as an example, ownership is like buying/owning, running, maintaining and upgrading a speed boat.
Only a guesstimate for those in a better position than I, would the equivalent of (in Vic) 2 country front wins and 6...7...8 placing's keep the dream alive?

[arlington]

This is why we should be picking up owners/breeders in limousines and wining and dining them at the track for nicks as they are 'supporting' the industry that we all enjoy


Don't disagree Kev, and I'll swap the speed boat any day for a Breeder's Crown carriage ride :D

[Richard prior]

Don't disagree Kev, and I'll swap the speed boat any day for a Breeder's Crown carriage ride :D

With plenty of leg room and a Mini Bar lol.

[Sofoulis]

My views on what it costs to maintain a pacer are varied depending on which trainer it is with, their training style and whether they are honest. The return, equally, depends on these variables and the underlying ability of the horse.


As for minimal costs, these would have to be the horses on deals. Less risk, less upside but fortunately you get the same enjoyment when they run a cracking race!
Deals I have been involved with ranged from 30% (owner) and 70% (trainer) for tried horses to 50/50 (for younger horses or horses with more upside potential to the trainer). The risk with these deals is that some trainers just 'sack' a horse without giving sufficient warning enabling you to find a new trainer without having to go begging.


As for paying up, I think the $40-$50 per day seems to be an average. Some trainers charge more but absorb all other costs (shoeing etc.).


Of course, this is just the training costs... then there is the transport, registration etc. [And, of course, the biggest cost in my experience has been dealing with untrustworthy trainers - I will not slander, but suffice to say, I happily now pay premium rates for trainers whom I trust].

[Messenger]

Good reply Adam - I have now edited my post 7 :D

[Richard prior]

I think Adam is right on the mark with his comments, I believe that certainly trainers charge $1600 per month but this figure can vary with the other odds and ends, Transport/Shoeing etc. Trust is the major issue, A friend of mine had a horse in NSW but was struggling with the payments so I took a small share, We would go along every couple of weeks to watch the horse working, She's going real good was the story I kept hearing, Slipped the old stop watch in my pocket and she was running quarters in 34, Said to my friend, This guys having a lend of you, Friend wouldn't hear if of it, First start at Bankstown, 25 metres behind the 2nd last horse, Friend was gutted, Trainer said, What do you want to do, I said put her in the paddock and don't touch her. Now this is well in the past and you learn from your mistakes and the people that I am now connected with aren't just trainers, They are my friends as well and the have all really helped me out but it's a struggle. I think anyone looking at getting into the game could take a share in a syndicate and this way the expense is shared around, Have a real good think about who will be training the horse and it's not hard to find out about a trainer and his or her reputation.

[p plater]

Adam, with your 30/70 and 50/50 deals is that before or after trainer /driver percentages and pay ups if applicable?

[Sofoulis]

Hi Bailey - always the % of whatever lands in the bank account after trainer/driver %'ers. (i.e. the trainer will get 30% or 50% of the prizemoney the owners receive)... I think this is fair because if it was paid up for, they would still get their trainer/driver %'ers.

[p plater]

Thanks Adam, on that return 26.25% and 43.75% (after percentages deducted) your horses must perform well to recover their purchase price. Seems a good deal for the trainer who can pull out of the deal any time, as mentioned previously.

[Danno]

Bailey the info shared by everyone in this thread is pretty close to the mark but can vary quite a bit depending on where you are and local costs etc, however I would stress that getting into the game as an owner is NOT normally an avenue for making money, it's more an avenue for having fun and hoping to cover your ex's, but not necessarily expecting to, there is a bucket load of fun to be had and the thrills are a real treat when the ball is bouncing your way....it just doesn't always bounce your way.

Like many things that are fun, it's not about making money...but if you do, great!

I don't think anyone has mentioned entry costs and I personaly recommend people entering the game start with an established racehorse, so they can go to the races and have some fun ASAP, you can buy country front performers that will provide a couple of wins ( in most circumstances) for around 6/7K, you can take it up or down from there but usually you get what you pay for with an established horse.

cheers,
Dan

[p plater]

Dan, thanks for that and your point well made. I was hoping by starting this thread it may lead to a possible promotional idea the encourage people into the sport.
The younger generation imo are more "return" opportunities minded than the older generation who are involved for the love of it.
Our future lies in getting more young ones involved but we seem to lack a story to tell.
Greyhounds are a cheaper option whilst the thoroughbreds are a "status " and "networking " thing.

[Messenger]

This is where I fear not having a true Metro track hurts us. I can imagine a dozen mates regularly gathering at MV and enjoying themselves, chipping in 2k each to cover the price of a cheap horse and racing costs for a year - maybe better still, finding a trustworthy trainer who knows how they might be able to lease a couple for that. They enjoy the sport at a whole other level hoping to have one make it Metro one day.
Going to the trots is not going to be today's young ones whole night and somehow I do not see it happening at Melton. Sorry if I am getting off track (excuse the pun)

[arlington]

That may have been lost in the planning Kev. Going to the trots is not going to be today's young ones whole night and somehow I do not see it happening at Melton. Sorry if I am getting off track
I think that is definitely relevant. Even if we're not talking about a Metro performer there are plenty of races for country front horses, and who wouldn't like to see their horse running around at the "city" track.

Bailey do you think marketing and promotion should lean toward a certain age group and what would be the age where the younger generation start to have discretionary income?

[djgood]

If it's one I own I budget $3000 per year, I charge $120 a week for outside horses that includes shoeing and supplements ,

[p plater]

Wayne, you and Kev are both 100% on track location, both Melton and Menangle will not get the after work crowd that Gloucester Park get. They have instead gone for asset based ownership of the property and rely on TAB turnover.
In relation to age group, it astounds me the money spent for tickets for concerts and other head banging activities. That would obviously change come marriage,children and home set up, so a gap develops for disposable income, then once established, they may consider getting involved in some form.
I could be way off the mark and facts may exists to prove me totally wrong. I would love to know the average age of harness racing owners.

[Messenger]

Wayne, you and Kev are both 100% on track location, both Melton and Menangle will not get the after work crowd that Gloucester Park get. They have instead gone for asset based ownership of the property and rely on TAB turnover.
In relation to age group, it astounds me the money spent for tickets for concerts and other head banging activities. That would obviously change come marriage,children and home set up, so a gap develops for disposable income, then once established, they may consider getting involved in some form.
I could be way off the mark and facts may exists to prove me totally wrong. I would love to know the average age of harness racing owners.
If this is not known then the administrators need to find it out for how else are they to cater for these owners - making what may be a big assumption here - that they realize the importance of owners and are actually trying to make the owners experience the best it possibly can be

Going on some threads we have had on the industry/owners, I am not sure my assumption is justified

[arlington]

In relation to age group, it astounds me the money spent for tickets for concerts and other head banging activities. That would obviously change come marriage,children and home set up, so a gap develops for disposable income, then once established, they may consider getting involved in some form.
I could be way off the mark and facts may exists to prove me totally wrong. I would love to know the average age of harness racing owners.

For sure, compared to previous generations. Introduction to the sport would still be through punting but there's now an opportunity to promote ownership earlier. Doesn't mean they'll maintain ownership as other financial responsibilities increase but if it's a good experience they might return.

Other's have highlighted the possible pit falls with finding a trainer and along with that racing integrity would be a priority when venturing into ownership. Not focussing just on drug free racing as there is a belief/opinion punters don't care but the transition to ownership would be influenced. I say belief/opinion as the alternative is punters don't care if drugs are not used. It's the level playing field that prospective owners are after.

[p plater]

If it's one I own I budget $3000 per year, I charge $120 a week for outside horses that includes shoeing and supplements ,

David at your training rates and the industry averages published you give hope to covering costs and putting a little into the bank for the next one.
Good luck and many winners

[Smoken]

I agree with the comments directed @ Melton. People I speak to regarding trots say to me, they never will consider Melton to be anything like MV was. The reasons are many.. People would rather dabble ownership & even training dogs for a thrill. Is cheaper for sure.

[HISGEN65]

Hi Bailey
I guess a lot of people are a bit reluctant to put up figures on the internet.
I will throw up some figures for you just to give you an idea.
I am a hobby trainer who works a 45 hour full time job.
I have 4 horses in work mostly old 100+ starters who really only need management & "ticking over" more so than hard work between races which suits
my situation.
3 cost me money & 1 pays his way so lets look at him as an example...C2 Gelding
He was given to me early December 2014 so lets work on a 12 week block for this exercise.

He has had 10 starts for me
1 x 1st...1:58
1 x 2nd
4 x 3rd
1 x 4th
3 x clangers

$4261.00 in prizemoney for the 12 weeks(I place him where I hope he can earn)

"Approx" costs on average from what I have seen around the place if he was being trained for a syndicate
$2500....12 weeks training
$475 farrier
$280 chiro/muscle massage
$500 travel
+ supplements/poultice/bandages/etc

"Approx"$4000.00 for 12 weeks depending on a few varying factors

So as you can see even though the horse is performing admirably he is still flat out making any money.
Average prizemoney & the pure fact that he has to be placed in the "cheaper" races is a major factor
which would obviously change massively from state to state.

This is a general outline for you although it's a bit of a "how long is a ball of string" type of question with way too many variables.
Having said that I am pretty sure that this scenario would be fairly close to the mark for alot of hobbyists.

[djgood]

David at your training rates and the industry averages published you give hope to covering costs and putting a little into the bank for the next one.
Good luck and many winners

Thanks
Last season I showed a little profit and owners were largely happy ,
This year I'm a little behind -one 2nd a few 4ths but I have two 2yo trotters that look like turning that trend around
the horses they own aren't the best , I shoe my own to drop costs and do deals and buy supplements in bulk

[p plater]

James, thanks for sharing that. My opinion of a 100+ starter with that record, good stuff. If he was a young horse in better races I expect his earning could be greater whereas his costs would remain the same.
Good luck with your team.