Breeders challenge final menangle

[mango]

Just interested to see who everyone like's in the Breeders Challenge Final's sunday.

[aussiebreno]

Rc1No2 Tsunami Sloy is juist about due
Rc2No2 Al About Me will roll to the front and be hard to catch
Rc3No13 Lenny Lewis I suspect will be too good
Rc4No11 Louvre I expect them to go hard early and it will run over the top
Rc5No3 Macca Kelly seems to have improved to a point I think he will win this
Rc6No12 Vertigal will shit in but get on Arterial Way the place. She will find the front and be better for last week; and the other heat was very ordinary I think.
Rc7No4 Sushi Sushi to beat Excel Stride, thrown in Screaman Seaman and A Passion For Aces for third in a trifecta.
Rc8No9 Karloo Mick don't know he is going but would hate to tip against him in a field like this
Rc9No3 Goeslikell from the moment he won first up I said he would win a Metro race this prep and its taken 23 starts and he probably isnt going as good but I think he will get it here.

I know I tipped more than the Breeders Challenge races but I probably need the extra races to tip a winner!

[David Summers]

Sushi Sushi , all things being equal, looks unbeatable , however that's what they said about Squamosa at Gosford yesterday and look what happened there :-)

Excel Stride's draw is a worry. I think Brick Top is definitely a big chance too.

I like Shez All Magic in the 3YO fillies. Vertigal just seems a bit susceptible to me.

In the 2YO's divisions I'll be on Louvre and Three Over Three. BTW , I am usually a very average tipster !

[Zipper]

2yo Fillies:
1. Miss Zo ZO
2. Lettucereason
3. Abbsyn Ace

2yo C&G:
1. Three Over Three
2. Uncle Lile
3. Macca Kelly

3yo Fillies:
1. Vertigal
2. Sounds So Good
3. Arterial Way

3yo C&G:
1. Brick Top
2. Sushi Sushi
3. Excel Stride

[montana]

2yo Fillies:
1. Louvre
2. Dance for Madi
3. Lettucereason

2yo C&G:
1. Macca Kelly
2. Uncle Lile
3. Three over Three

3yo Fillies:
1. Vertigal to win easily
2. Shes All Magic
3. Arterial Way

3yo C&G:
1. Excel Stride is my bet of the day
2. Sushi Sushi
3. Brick Top

[triplev123]

Recent punting results having confirmed that I've become the 3rd Minty Man, I reckon I could stop a runaway train...so I'm not going to do anymore than wish them all well.

[remington]

2yo Fillies:
1. Lettucereason
2.dance for madi
3.louvre

2yo C&G:
1. Macca Kelly
2. Three over Three
3.Hes Magic Red

3yo Fillies:
1. Shes All Magic
2. Arterial Way
3. Vertigal

3yo C&G:
1. Excel Stride
2. Sushi Sushi
3. A Passion for aces

[mango]

2yo Fillies :
1. Dance For Madi
2. Lettucereason
3. Oh Eye See

2yo C&G :
1. Macca Kelly
2. Three Over Three
3. Theartofdelusion

3yo Fillies :
1. Vertigal
2. Arterial Way
3. Shez All Magic

3yo C&G :
1. Sushi Sushi
2. A Passion For Aces
3. Brick Top

Rce 1 : Buckeye Nation
Rce 2 : Big Fella Mach
Rce 3 : Ushaka Bromac
Rce 8 : Pembrook Henry
Rce 9 : Courageous Kiwi

[triplev123]

Courageous effort by Vertigal, came home from China and ran over a Hot Dog Vendor on the home turn to score and Sushi's 1:54.1 was a new Australasian 3yo Record for the 2300m.

[Zipper]

Vertigal was awesome, I agree triple.

Sushi Sushi is a machine, I hadn't seen him in the flesh prior to today and I must admit to look at, he is fairly lean but very athletic. For a horse with not a huge frame he certainly has a massive motor as he cruised to victory today. Would have gone a second faster if he had something to chase.

Theartofdelusion was impressive in the 2yo boys race, seems to be an improving type for the future.

Great drive by J Willick on Louvre to win the fillies 2yo race. Toughed it right out to the line.

Good crowd out there today, that is what happens when people don't have to pay to get in!!!! Hopefully those in control will learn from that.

[David Summers]

Just got home :-) Great day out there. Such good weather and the crowd was excellent and really added to the atmosphere.

Sushi Sushi , a personal favourite, really showed his class , although Excel Stride was gallant too. The other three Group 1's were full of excitement from start to finish.

Let's not forget two other fine performances on the day - Karloo Mick and Buckeye Nation , backed them both as well as Louvre , Sushi Sushi and Big Fella Mach. Still counting my winnings :=)

[aussiebreno]

It seems I should have stuck to the Breeders Crown race got 3/4 in them but 1/5 in the rest! Haven't had an oppurtuity to watch just got home from a long day of footy (that happens when you're 5 goals down 10minutes in) and from reports on here it sounds like it was a great day racing.

[triplev123]

BLINDER OF A DRIVE...by GMAC on Theartofdelusion. Pretty to watch.

[mango]

It seems I should have stuck to the Breeders Crown race got 3/4 in them but 1/5 in the rest! Haven't had an oppurtuity to watch just got home from a long day of footy (that happens when you're 5 goals down 10minutes in) and from reports on here it sounds like it was a great day racing.

Hey Breno

Race day's like this mate you call in sick for footy, footy will be on next wkend but the Breeders Challenge day won't be on again for another year.

[David Summers]

breno - your absence from Menangle because of some "footy" game , was a big discussion point at the track yesterday :-) Yes, you should have rung in sick and joined us. You missed a great time.

[David Summers]

Why has the description above my avatar suddenly changed me into a filly? Last time I checked myself I was a colt ........ no , make that a stallion!

[aussiebreno]

Hey Breno

Race day's like this mate you call in sick for footy, footy will be on next wkend but the Breeders Challenge day won't be on again for another year. A lesson learnt the hard way. Games should be strictly Saturday afternoon so I don't have this problem.


breno - your absence from the Menangle because of some "footy" game , was a big discussion point at the track yesterday :-) Yes, you should have rung in sick and joined us. You missed a great time. Hahaha!

[nat]

Have to agree some good racing Karloo Mick still mind boggling what he did, Vertigal I honestly though she was done and dusted on the turn what a sprint in the straight and Sushi Sushi top run but Excel Stride what a run it was a shame the draw made it that way this horse has some ticker.

[David Summers]

Agreed Nat , they are two mighty three year olds , Sushi Sushi and Excel Stride. I gave Vertigal no chance on the turn either. She sure has some sprint.

Love that long straight at Menangle. Gives all horses a chance.

[mango]

Why has the description above my avatar suddenly changed me into a filly? Last time I checked myself I was a colt ........ no , make that a stallion!

Sex change maybe lol.

[remington]

Great racing all day, love the managle track gives every horse the oppertunity to show there skills and quality. Cant wait till next year

[Zipper]

The other highlight on the day was Ash Siejka's post race outfit..... Sensational. Serious glamour!!

[triplev123]

The other highlight on the day was Ash Siejka's post race outfit..... Sensational. Serious glamour!!

This here clapped out old married bloke with two daughters but nonetheless casual observer thought that both Miss Siejka & Miss Rothwell were by far and away the best dressed young ladies on course, in fact they romped it in by the length of the Menangle straight. Glamour comes to Harness Racing indeed Zipper, glamour indeed. I was left feeling decidely old & decidedly poorly attired in their presence.
Nice work ladies. Whenever you can make Sam look a bit downmarket in comparison then you're firing on all cylinders. :D:D:D:D:D

[Zipper]

Young Ash is a great advertisement for harness racing and not just because she has a pretty face. I've never met the girl but she seems very level headed and is very talented in the cart.

All that being said the old sternocleidomastoid is still recovering from when she breezed on by me yesterday......unbelievable!!

[triplev123]

Really nice girl. Very friendly, very capable horsewoman is Ash, as a good a driver as there is out there. Give her the cattle and she'll get them home. A great advertisment for the sport. My daughters couldn't believe she was also a driver. She's someone for them to look up to should they wish to get involved in the future. Lauren Panella is also a very nice girl and likewise, can steer. I met her one night at Penrith. Michael Muscat introduced me to her. I don't think we make anywhere near enough of the number of female drivers in Harness Racing.

[desibg]

Can someone tell me if they had the Mare time Trials and if so who got fastest time?

[triplev123]

Thankfully, I don't think there were any.

[mango]

Can someone tell me if they had the Mare time Trials and if so who got fastest time?

Been through all trial results and Trots tv and can't find any mare's time trials.

[Greg Hando]

Their was supposed to be four time trial

[mango]

I didn't go down sunday so i can't say if there was or wasn't for sure but i can say i can't find any results to say there was as yet.

[aussiebreno]

I read an article about 2months back suggesting this. Don't remember it being Breeders Challenge day but Winston seems positive it was. Probably something that never stood up.

[triplev123]

Pound for Pound....Time Trials are THE single most ridiculous thing done in Harness Racing, imo. Dustbin of History stuff.

[desibg]

Thanks for everyone looking into it, i couldn't find anything either. I have to admit it would be a pretty boring old display, plus who would want to give there horse a gut buster and not rewarded with any prizemoney, unless of course they were looking for a time for breeding.

[mango]

Always wondered could they or do they get tested like a horse that win's a race.

[triplev123]

Technically yes they are/should be, in practice however....maybe not always. One infamous case of a horse falling foul of exactly such testing was Cambest, producing a TC02 overage after he had TT'd in 1:46 & a piece.

[remington]

Thanks for everyone looking into it, i couldn't find anything either. I have to admit it would be a pretty boring old display, plus who would want to give there horse a gut buster and not rewarded with any prizemoney, unless of course they were looking for a time for breeding.

When buying a yearling tho would you look into the time a mare ran in a time trial or actually in a race. For me i prefer to look at race performances and a time trial time wouldnt even phase me, just my opinion

[mango]

Thanks Triple

I must admit i didn't know about Cambest but i oftened wondered how he could go a super mile back then. To be honest i don't think time trials should stand and be put into sale pedigree books as black print.

[mango]

When buying a yearling tho would you look into the time a mare ran in a time trial or actually in a race. For me i prefer to look at race performances and a time trial time wouldnt even phase me, just my opinion

Race performance for me

[David Summers]

Race performance for me

Ditto. Time trials are a gimmick and their rather dubious "usefulness" went out in the 80's when we were desperately trying to keep up with U.S. race times on our then tiny tracks. They are completely irrelevant these days.

[mightymo]

I am totally against time trials, and believe they should not get a mare black type.

Lets face it. There is not a mare on this planet that cant go to menangle and time trial in sub 2 min.

For them to then get black type is a total farce

[triplev123]

I believe the TT routine on NSW Breeders Challenge Finals day was proposed by Harness Breeders NSW. I reckon it must have been one of Cloughy's brainstorms as he's still trapped back in the last Century somewhere. :confused::confused::confused::confused: Thank Heaven for small mercies that it failed to materialise.

[mango]

I am totally against time trials, and believe they should not get a mare black type.

Lets face it. There is not a mare on this planet that cant go to menangle and time trial in sub 2 min.

For them to then get black type is a total farce

Hi Mightymo

The only way a mare won't break 2mins in a trial around Menangle is if it has an anvil strapped to one of it's back legs. New Zealand sale books have mare's with Time Trials all through it and i suppose most of them trial at Ashburton. When you take a good look at some of the TT mare's in the sale books you will find some mare's that have had 10 starts 3 place's but Time Trialled in 57 it's a total joke and they should get rid of this as it's in NO way BLACK PRINT and i'll agree with you Mightymo it's a total farce.

[desibg]

You guys seem to have a good understanding of sales etc... What do you think will happen to sales results in a few years times once the current crop of mares have foals and because of Menangle, alot of Mares are going to have 1.55 beside there name, where as the rest of Australia aren't getting near these times. Do you think it will make it will effect on sales?

[triplev123]

I don't think it will matter much Desibg, I don't think times alone will have any effect at all...because it's all relative.
We bred a filly that set the Overall 3yo Track Record at HP of 1:56.0 for 1760m back in early 2005 and it was never bettered. That was absolutely low flying back then but step out and run that today at Menangle and pretty much nobody would even raise an eyebrow. Step out and go that same trip at Menangle over the 1609 and that filly hits the wire somewhere in the early to mid 1:51's and that would raise an eyebrow.
What will have a big influence on the Sales will be the level of earnings that they'll be able to compile at Menangle, it will be the best $$$ anywhere in the Southern Hemisphere & right up there with the best prize money available anywhere in the World. That will make a difference.

[aussiebreno]

Maybe others may be different; but if I was going to spend money on a yearling I would do more research then the sales guide. Everything has to be put into context. All other things being equal eg tesio rating and conformity a 1.58 mare at Harold Park 2160 from the death trained by Joe Blow who's second best horse ever ran 2.04 is much better than a 1.58 Albion Park 1660 leaders back trained by John McCarthy yet the sales book will have them exactly the same. You gotta put it into context or as VVV said its all relative.

[mango]

Hi Breno

You are right you should do more research than just read the sale book i often go back through and watch there race replays if you can find them on the computer and also go through there race stats see who they raced and how they went over all.

Hi Triple

Summed up beautifully, not sure if i'm correct on this next call but i think if a horse can go 2:01 around Bathurst over the 1730m it runs 1:57 easy at Menangle over the mile.

[Rids]

Guys,
Given we have touched on sales, what are your thoughts on the Premier Sale in Melbourne ? Personally I think all it does is congregate the heavy hitters on a selection of choice lots selected by whoever. Once it's done the remainder of the series is basically branded consolations, I for one won't be sending any of mine down that track, and would have thought it would have run its course by now. Maybe other people don't see it that way.

[mango]

I don't like the format of having 2 Premium sale's there should be just one and should be taken in turns by Sydney and Melbourne.

[triplev123]

Under race conditions I'm not sure of the Bathurst to Menangle differentials Mango but that sounds about right to me. Other tracks wise, I think there's about 4 seconds or so difference between Melton and Menangle and it's closer to 5 seconds difference Newcastle to Menangle but that gap can vary depending on the weather. At certain times of the year with the right weather conditions Newcastle can be lightning fast. The (new) Harold Park track to Menangle was probably just a fraction more than 5 seconds. The old HP track (prior to all the banking etc) to Menangle, geeze...I reckon that would've been up closer to 8 seconds as compared to Menangle.

[triplev123]

Guys,
Given we have touched on sales, what are your thoughts on the Premier Sale in Melbourne ? Personally I think all it does is congregate the heavy hitters on a selection of choice lots selected by whoever. Once it's done the remainder of the series is basically branded consolations, I for one won't be sending any of mine down that track, and would have thought it would have run its course by now. Maybe other people don't see it that way.

G'day Rids,

We've got 5 to go under the hammer next year, 2 being aimed at the Premium on Friday night in Sydney, 3 more for the body of the Sydney catalogue on Sunday.
As a concept we support the Premium Sale and will continue to do so for as long as they care to conduct it... though this time around I think it should have been moved, lock stock and barrel to Sydney. I don't agree with splitting it in two. I think it is a retrograde step...but of course I am very happy to be proven wrong.
In terms of concentrating the heavy hitters, in theory that's a fair assumption but in practice for the most part that's not what actually happens. The figures from the most recent round of sales here in Oz are testimony to that.
In fact I sent the following piece to another forum when this very subject came up and in particular, where there was discussion over the perceived success or otherwise of last year's Premium Sale and the Sales in general.

It’s a lack of buyers for sure and that on top of the fact that the APG can only selectfor their Premium Sale based on nominations that they receive.
There were many yearlings that sold through the main body of the catalogue in both Melbourne and Sydney that, had they been proposed for inclusion, I am sure would have walked into the Premium section no sweat...but for whatever reason their Breeders chose not to nominate them.

As I recall there were in excess of 2 dozen yearlings in the main catalogue in Melbourne and around 2 dozen yearlings in Sydney (some 45-50 or so yearlings in total) that went for tickets at or inexcess of, and a good number of those were well in excess of, $20,000.

I’m all for the concept of a Premium Sale but I think there is some tweaking to be done to get it squared away again and so attract the nominations of ...if not the entirety... then at least the vast majority of the best yearlings on offer.

In keeping with the above, we had a very nice colt to sell earlier this year but our circumstances at the time would not allow us the opportunity to get away and go to Melbourne with him. We put him up in the main body of the catalogue in Sydney and we got $31,000. That was a good price, we were thrilled of course. Had he been in the Premium in Melbourne along with the associated extra expenses involved in getting him & ourselves down there etc. I don't think he would have sold for much more/any more than that...so we made the right decision.
Further to that, as I mentioned above, there were 40-50 other yearlings just like ours that were not nominated for the Premium section but that sold for prices of $20,000 or more. Some of their owners would have had ideological objections & made specific decisions not to nominate for the Premium section, some of them maybe didn't realise just how good their yearling was and were presently surprised and some of them were like us and couldn't spare the time away given their other committments. I think there's a lot more Breeders who find themselves in the latter group than many in the APG organisation currently realise. In the end, well bred/commerically bred, well made, well related, well presented yearlings with a swag of Stakes/Futurity eligibilities to back them up will always sell for good money.

[mightymo]

G'day Rids,

We've got 5 to go under the hammer next year, 2 being aimed at the Premium on Friday night in Sydney, 3 more for the body of the Sydney catalogue on Sunday.
As a concept we support the Premium Sale and will continue to do so for as long as they care to conduct it... though this time around I think it should have been moved, lock stock and barrel to Sydney. I don't agree with splitting it in two. I think it is a retrograde step...but of course I am very happy to be proven wrong.
In terms of concentrating the heavy hitters, in theory that's a fair assumption but in practice for the most part that's not what actually happens. The figures from the most recent round of sales here in Oz are testimony to that.
In fact I sent the following piece to another forum when this very subject came up and in particular, where there was discussion over the perceived success or otherwise of last year's Premium Sale and the Sales in general.

It’s a lack of buyers for sure and that on top of the fact that the APG can only selectfor their Premium Sale based on nominations that they receive.
There were many yearlings that sold through the main body of the catalogue in both Melbourne and Sydney that, had they been proposed for inclusion, I am sure would have walked into the Premium section no sweat...but for whatever reason their Breeders chose not to nominate them.

As I recall there were in excess of 2 dozen yearlings in the main catalogue in Melbourne and around 2 dozen yearlings in Sydney (some 45-50 or so yearlings in total) that went for tickets at or inexcess of, and a good number of those were well in excess of, $20,000.

I’m all for the concept of a Premium Sale but I think there is some tweaking to be done to get it squared away again and so attract the nominations of ...if not the entirety... then at least the vast majority of the best yearlings on offer.

In keeping with the above, we had a very nice colt to sell earlier this year but our circumstances at the time would not allow us the opportunity to get away and go to Melbourne with him. We put him up in the main body of the catalogue in Sydney and we got $31,000. That was a good price, we were thrilled of course. Had he been in the Premium in Melbourne along with the associated extra expenses involved in getting him & ourselves down there etc. I don't think he would have sold for much more/any more than that...so we made the right decision.
Further to that, as I mentioned above, there were 40-50 other yearlings just like ours that were not nominated for the Premium section but that sold for prices of $20,000 or more. Some of their owners would have had ideological objections & made specific decisions not to nominate for the Premium section, some of them maybe didn't realise just how good their yearling was and were presently surprised and some of them were like us and couldn't spare the time away given their other committments. I think there's a lot more Breeders who find themselves in the latter group than many in the APG organisation currently realise. In the end, well bred/commerically bred, well made, well related, well presented yearlings with a swag of Stakes/Futurity eligibilities to back them up will always sell for good money.



Triple v absolutely nailed it when he said "In the end, well bred/commerically bred, well made, well related, well presented yearlings with a swag of Stakes/Futurity eligibilities to back them up will always sell for good money".

I have had yearlings sell in each of the premium sales to date, and each time i have had yearlings that were not accepted into the premium sell for more money in the Sunday sale.

If you have an absolute outstanding yearling then you may get more in the premium sale. on the other hand, those around the 20K mark often get ignored in the premium sale and so you get only 15K, whereas on the Sunday you might get 25-30K...

[David Summers]

Rids, the advice given above from triplev and mightymo is spot on. Their experience exactly reflects mine as well. Read both of their posts carefully and take note of their well thought out advice. You can't go wrong. Good luck.

[triplev123]

It has been hard won and costly Ozninja, I'm sure Mightymo will tell you the very same. Something else I think he'll probably agree with is that over the years by & large various Industry bodies have done and continue to do a pretty lousy job when it comes down to disseminating information & advice about this and related areas.
Mightymo has duly gotten himself involved with National moves to rectify this as have I and a good many others.
The depth of feeling there is out there with regard to the Breeding side of the Industry was evidenced quite spectacularly by the sheer number of submissions received by the HRA Breeding Panel when they called for same earlier this year.
I take the basic view, as does Mightymo, that if the Breeding Industry is strong overall then as a direct result we are all going to be stronger individually...both Stud Farm and Breeder, and of course that has to be a good thing.
The crap aside, that which I freely admit a great contribution to by way of pics of Sam's shirts & so on, the value of this and of similar forums is incalcuable. I wish there was an Internet & Forums like this back in 1987/88 when I got my first broodmare. Back then, no bastard would tell me a God damned thing. It was like you were expected to be born with it all as imprinted knowledge :( It took me another 8-10 years or so before Brian Hancock told me to forget about only breeding my mare to stallions that were eligible for the NSW Sires Stakes (as that was the extent of my vision at the time)...and that I should look for the best horse I could possibly afford, no matter where it was standing and what the foals would be eligible for,his reasoning being that if they were good enough they'd win money, regardless. You know, that remains to this day the best, the single most valuable piece of advice that I ever got from anyone.

[David Summers]

I should look for the best horse I could possibly afford, no matter where it was standing and what the foals would be eligible for,his reasoning being that if they were good enough they'd win money, regardless. You know, that remains to this day the best, the single most valuable piece of advice that I ever got from anyone.

Yes indeed , when Brian Hancock gives you advice like that it certainly means a lot. Thanks for passing that on here in the forum. I know from lots of harness buddies that although they never usually post anything in these forums (too shy or maybe think they have nothing interesting to say) that they very often read all the information and advice. Hopefully they will think carefully about Brian's words of wisdom.