Is Ike Frost really the sire of Maori's Idol ?

[papagayo]

Just a question for a European trotting fan here. Been reading a bit about Maori's Idol here + watching some Youtube videos about him. Looking at his pedigree I wonder about his sire, Ike Frost. Did Ike Frost produce many trotters or was Maori's Idol an exception?

[aussiebreno]

In 1977-78 his sire, Ike Frost, was voted Australia’s leading trotting sire, this was despite the fact that he had only ONE winner, Maori’s Idol who won 22 races for $63,149. That same year Delvin Dancer sired 9 individual winners! There has been much controversy over the years in regards to Ike Frost appearing as the sire of Maori’s Idol. He never sired ANY other trotter and there are many who say that Maori’s Idol is the ‘spitting image’ of another stallion who stood alongside Ike Frost, a TROTTING stallion named Bank Note! Wherever the truth may lie, the fact remains that Ike Frost is oficially listed as his sire.

http://www.harnessbred.com/great-harness-horses-1960-1980/

[Messenger]

Interesting stuff Breno

Ike did sire a couple of other trotters in NZ - Frosty Lass who won a few and Carrao who did zip

(You would think that DNA testing of ancestors should have proven the true sire by now)

[Adaptor]

Ike Frost was a small 15 hand or less tall pacer. We had a son oh is named Junior Ike who struggled to make15 hands and was a chestnut.
It's generally accepted that Bank Note, was the sire of Maoris Idol
Ike Frost, WD Direct and Bank Note were all at the same stud..either in Euroa or Oaklands Junction when Maoris Idol he was sired.

I seem to remember that DNA testing was done in Qld...but not sure whether there was any outcome.

[Messenger]

When I get back to the Gap, I might contact the registrar of the Stud book - with DNA testing they should be able to determine the probability it was either stallion

[Hermione]

Will watch this with interest.

[papagayo]

Very interesting to read. When was Bank Note exported to Australia and did he race there? He's certainly blue blooded.

[Adaptor]

Bank Note foaled in 1954 wih first foals in 1962.
http://www.classicfamilies.net/HorseDetails.aspx?HorseID=10001289

was a gift from Averill Harriman, (wealthy supporter of trotting in the USA, Governor of NY State, one time owner of the Arden Stable, and the historic Goshen Track) , to I thibk Joe coulter (Tuxedo) the well known trotting writer and owner of Tuxedo bookshop in Adelaide when he was on a visit to the US.
Chris Howe was also involved, but I'm not sure how.

But Bamk Note was certainly beautifully bred , and was a full brother to 1952 Hambletonian winner Sharp Note
He was the leading sire of trotters in Australia in seasons 1970, 71,73,74 and 75.
Hi sired many very good trotters including Just Money, Little Interest and GardenStar. Not bad considering he sired only 144 foals in 15 years at stud.

He is found in the pedigree of current good 3yo Ball Park
http://www.classicfamilies.net/CF/Descendants.aspx?HorseID=10001289

[Messenger]

So far I have been fortunate to receive a reply from esteemed authority John Peck that

"There was some limited testing undertaken in the 1990s using bloodtyping, however, the upshot was that there was no definitive proof that Ike Frost could be excluded as the sire, nor any definitive proof that Bank Note was the sire"

[Messenger]

I have received the following reply from HRA's Andrew Kelly, the Keeper of the Studbook:

"Regarding the descendent genotyping of horses - our lab informs us that this is far more difficult in horses than in humans and given the current technology, costs involved and probability of an uncertain outcome, if we were to undertake this as a project, then we would be better to wait until the processes were improved (they are continually improving). On balance, we will re-visit at a later time."

So I am afraid we will all have to be patient. If I am still around I will ask again in a couple of years LOL

[Messenger]

I see Andrew is calling for tenders for the next DNA testers contract

http://www.harness.org.au/news-article.cfm?news_id=33510

Harness Racing Australia (HRA) employs a strong commitment and regulatory framework to protect the integrity of breeding activities and horse identification within the harness racing industry.
An important component of these regulations is the parentage verification of each horse .....

I think this time next year will be long enough to have waited for the answer to the BIG question this thread asks

[Histeland85]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maori%27s_Idol

really have to research on that

[Messenger]

If we can afford DNA testing to determine Systematic's parentage I think we are well overdue to answer the Question posed in this thread

http://www.harness.org.au/media-room/news-article/?news_id=37906

Another year has passed Andrew Kelly

[Richard prior]

Totally agree Kev

[Showgrounds]

Oh, dear. This old (very) question has been raised once again and, once again, everybody will have differing opinions. I have a terrific Maori's Idol (true) tale to tell everybody on this forum but I am yet to hit the "post" button. And I won't until I am ready.

Yes, both the fertility-challenged Ike Frost and the ageing trotting stallion Bank Note stood for Des Dumbrell at Oaklands Junction in 1971 when Ric Healy sent his star dual-gaited mare Maori Miss to Ike Frost. The argument for the past 4 decades has been around Ike Frost, who had only thrown one other trotter among his 109 winners, siring an out and out superstar in Maori's Idol. Rumours persist that 16 year-old Ike Frost, a Noel Simpson import, was shooting blanks at the time and the 17 year-old Bank Note was being under patronized - I'm sure you'll get my drift. Two decades after I last put forward my theory as to how Ike Frost, not Bank Note, sired a champion I reckon I have even more ammunition to prove it was the dam, not the sire, that was the dominant parent.

As amazing a broodmare and matriarch Maori Miss has been, the old "Bank Note" theory does her a great disservice. I remember having a long discussion with a well known breeding expert back in the 1990's about the topic. He rattled of the stats and facts, my arguement was that Maori Miss could throw a champion by the milko's horse.

Her first four foals were all good horses by stallions who sired top horses at both gaits. Her first foal, Maori's Gift (Ardri) won at both gaits and I remember him mainly as a pretty smart type winning at the Melbourne Showgrounds. Then came the extra smart trotter Maori's Pride (Dick Adios) who was sold to the US as a youngster; Victorian Trotters Derby and Australasian Trotting Championship winner Maori Monarch (by Meadow Vance) and back to Dick Adios for top open class pacer Maori's Wonder. The following year, Maori's Idol (Ike Frost) hit the ground.

The sires of those first 5 (male) foals were all pacing bred. All of Maori Miss' foals were by pacers.

At the time of my last discussion on this topic, I referred my breeding expert friend to keep an eye on a juvenile trotting grandson of Maori Miss named Noopy Kiosk. I told him "Noopy" was by another pacing bred stallion, Paulsboro. Paulsboro ultimately left fewer than 100 winners with the smart Pauls Future the next best of his 4 trotting winners.

Maori Miss' sixth foal was her first filly, the very smart but unreliable trotter Maori Mara. Through her trotting-bred sired daughter and grand-daughter Maori Mara is the third dam of another outstanding trotter in Blitzthemcalder - by moderately performed pacing sire Metropolitan! "Blitz" is the richest of his progeny downunder and one of three trotting winners among the 118 listed on the HRA website.

So, Sturla, the question "is Ike Frost really the sire of Maori's Idol" could be substituted with "is Paulsboro / Metropolitan really the sire of Noopy Kiosk / Blitzthemcalder"? In all three, my answer is yes. No doubt I'll get howled down by others' opinions but I am more certain of my answer 40 years after the question was first asked.

Without doing a complete dossier on Maori Miss, I suggest all standardbred fans do their own research to develop and appreciation of her incredible contribution to to the breed. As a footnote, Bank Note sired many really top trotters but I remember them more as grinding stayers. If sired by him, Maori's Idol must have been a one-off because of his freakish speed. Maybe he inherited that from mum. Or maybe, Ike Frost?

[Showgrounds]

My apologies, all. I just realized more than 2 years has passed since the 40 year-old question was asked again!

[Messenger]

Yes Trev, I was just sending Andrew Kelly a reminder that it was 2 years ago that he told me, they would revisit this question at a later time (when descendant genotyping and costs have improved)

[Showgrounds]

No prob Kev. However, I doubt whether the great mystery will ever be solved. For my part, I am proud that I was able to stump-up a few grand to buy one of Maori's Idol's best daughters as a broodmare. And she was a PACER. A Tasmanian-bred one to boot with a Tasmanian pedigree dating back to just after the turn of the 20th century.

No amount of DNA testing will ever explain the matter, which is the great romance of breeding standardbreds.

[Danno]

No prob Kev. However, I doubt whether the great mystery will ever be solved. For my part, I am proud that I was able to stump-up a few grand to buy one of Maori's Idol's best daughters as a broodmare. And she was a PACER. A Tasmanian-bred one to boot with a Tasmanian pedigree dating back to just after the turn of the 20th century.

No amount of DNA testing will ever explain the matter, which is the great romance of breeding standardbreds.

No amount of breeding investigations/theories/studies will ever resolve the mysteries Trevor, but you certainly hit the nail on the head with the contribution of that great matriarch, there are many sires with many stock left that would not be able to boast the quality stock that she has left.

cheers,

Dan.

PS if Maori's Idol is not by Bank Note I will eat my hat and those of everyone who present it to me, no person with normal vision and an eye for a horse would differ.

[Showgrounds]

;)
No amount of breeding investigations/theories/studies will ever resolve the mysteries Trevor, but you certainly hit the nail on the head with the contribution of that great matriarch, there are many sires with many stock left that would not be able to boast the quality stock that she has left.

cheers,

Dan.

PS if Maori's Idol is not by Bank Note I will eat my hat and those of everyone who present it to me, no person with normal vision and an eye for a horse would differ.

Sauce with the hat, sir? ;)

[Danno]

Ha ha not required mate!!

[Richard prior]

Hahaha

[Messenger]

With Andrew Kelly having said over 3yrs ago

"On balance, we will re-visit at a later time."

see post 10

I emailed him a reminder 6 weeks ago and getting no reply, I tried again 2 weeks ago

I am afraid that the HRA CEO will not give me the courtesy of a reply :(

[Texas]

Just a question for a European trotting fan here. Been reading a bit about Maori's Idol here + watching some Youtube videos about him. Looking at his pedigree I wonder about his sire, Ike Frost. Did Ike Frost produce many trotters or was Maori's Idol an exception?

Chances are that Bank Note was/is the Dad of Maori…. Why do I say this, Well ANYONE can Check it out.....
Have a good STUDY of the Ike Frost's Progeny, in "Classic Families", and/or HRV's 'Horse Search', and you'll find NO OTHER Trotters bred by him
(although, ADIOS himself, left a single trotter, (that sort defeats my argument a tad, but Adios' Trotter was out of strong trotting lines)

Bank Note, WAS a PURE Blue Blooded trotter, capable of breeding a great one like Maori….. and the resemblance is uncanny....My Dad Saw Both an actually quizzed everyone about it at the time….Also Look at the Progeny bred from both Ike Frost and Maori.....Maori has a pretty good stud record with both gaits, Poor old Ike has Bugger all of anything!....Stands to reason in my humble opinion!.....ANYWAYS....don't matter much one way or the other now.....BTW My Father in Law HAD Maori's Wonder (a 1/2 bro to the Great One X DICK ADIOS who did throw a lot of trotters....."Wonder" COULD NOT TROT 2 yards.....Walked on the Pace, as well!)….

[Messenger]

Yes Kevin, the statistical facts and apparently physical appearance suggest Bank Note so if there is the possibility of correcting a (possible) significant mistake in our stud book shouldn't HRA be doing so

[Texas]

Yes, we all have our theories, some correct others not.....Guess we will never know 100%....ONE FACT was mentioned, that of Maori Miss being A STAR Broodmare, dual gaits, so, FACT IS She could probably leave any quality from ANY Studhorse....
All the Earlier Trotting Champs say pre 2000, seemed to be by Pacing Stallions, e.g. Scotch Notch and True Roman, later on La Coocheracha, Noopy, and so on...
Alternatively, GREAT PACERS have come from Trotting/bred Broodmares, French Chef and such.....after all said and done, all the blood is related, back ONLY a "few" years ago, evolutionary wise!....Peter the Great to Peter's Volo, Scott, The Brewer etc. were NOT that long ago!...in real terms.....
(Granted in latter/recent years, with stallions going to stud as 3 and 4yo's, there appears 'a lot of generations' within the pedigree, to get back to them, but speaking in time, ONLY 100 years, not even that long.
'Freaks', 'Throw-backs', and "Sports" are all 'normal' in breeding, and then, the "Mutations" and/or "Game-changers" come along....How do WE explain these? Or should WE even Try?
What Purpose does it really serve to "analyse the Hair off the Superstar", it is NOT as though we can reproduce it....whether it be Adios, Cam, Nukes, Lazarus, C.C. or whomever....That is the "Breeding/thinking backwards" mentality.....
Must try to BREED FORWARD....aka, The "Where to from Now!?" Method....
That is to Say, Forward, From Blacks a Fake, Laz, Quinn, Treacherous, Bettor's etc.....using THE GREAT FILLIES and MARES, not the average ones, of any sex...…….
Time and Breed must move forward!

[Ray White]

Very well put.

[Showgrounds]

Yes, we all have our theories, some correct others not.....Guess we will never know 100%....ONE FACT was mentioned, that of Maori Miss being A STAR Broodmare, dual gaits, so, FACT IS She could probably leave any quality from ANY Studhorse....
All the Earlier Trotting Champs say pre 2000, seemed to be by Pacing Stallions, e.g. Scotch Notch and True Roman, later on La Coocheracha, Noopy, and so on...
Alternatively, GREAT PACERS have come from Trotting/bred Broodmares, French Chef and such.....after all said and done, all the blood is related, back ONLY a "few" years ago, evolutionary wise!....Peter the Great to Peter's Volo, Scott, The Brewer etc. were NOT that long ago!...in real terms.....
(Granted in latter/recent years, with stallions going to stud as 3 and 4yo's, there appears 'a lot of generations' within the pedigree, to get back to them, but speaking in time, ONLY 100 years, not even that long.
'Freaks', 'Throw-backs', and "Sports" are all 'normal' in breeding, and then, the "Mutations" and/or "Game-changers" come along....How do WE explain these? Or should WE even Try?
What Purpose does it really serve to "analyse the Hair off the Superstar", it is NOT as though we can reproduce it....whether it be Adios, Cam, Nukes, Lazarus, C.C. or whomever....That is the "Breeding/thinking backwards" mentality.....
Must try to BREED FORWARD....aka, The "Where to from Now!?" Method....
That is to Say, Forward, From Blacks a Fake, Laz, Quinn, Treacherous, Bettor's etc.....using THE GREAT FILLIES and MARES, not the average ones, of any sex...…….
Time and Breed must move forward!

Agree with you. I have purposely not put my two-bobs worth forward on this thread as it has been a topic of conversation for over 4 decades. To cut to the chase, Maori Miss probably could have thrown a good trotter by one of the Carlton Draught Clydesdales.

One of her fillies that failed in most aspects, but was a champion broodmare, was by the pacing sire Overtrick. Overtrick, who stood for 3 or 4 thousand bucks at Carlton Stud 45 years ago (!) was somewhat underwhelming at stud here considering the expectations. That filly's name was Maori Trump.

Perhaps we should ask the question "Is Paulsboro really the sire of Noopy Kiosk"? It is a more contemporary question than this topic. Maori's Idol was a strapping, athletic stallion while Ike Frost was on the short side. Bank Note was no oil painting either and I cannot remember any of his trotters being exceptionally pretty.

As suggested, Maori Miss can take the bulk of the credit for Maori's Idol and the dynasty she created.

[Messenger]

Yes, we all have our theories, some correct others not.....Guess we will never know 100%....ONE FACT was mentioned, that of Maori Miss being A STAR Broodmare, dual gaits, so, FACT IS She could probably leave any quality from ANY Studhorse....
All the Earlier Trotting Champs say pre 2000, seemed to be by Pacing Stallions, e.g. Scotch Notch and True Roman, later on La Coocheracha, Noopy, and so on...
Alternatively, GREAT PACERS have come from Trotting/bred Broodmares, French Chef and such.....after all said and done, all the blood is related, back ONLY a "few" years ago, evolutionary wise!....Peter the Great to Peter's Volo, Scott, The Brewer etc. were NOT that long ago!...in real terms.....
(Granted in latter/recent years, with stallions going to stud as 3 and 4yo's, there appears 'a lot of generations' within the pedigree, to get back to them, but speaking in time, ONLY 100 years, not even that long.
'Freaks', 'Throw-backs', and "Sports" are all 'normal' in breeding, and then, the "Mutations" and/or "Game-changers" come along....How do WE explain these? Or should WE even Try?
What Purpose does it really serve to "analyse the Hair off the Superstar", it is NOT as though we can reproduce it....whether it be Adios, Cam, Nukes, Lazarus, C.C. or whomever....That is the "Breeding/thinking backwards" mentality.....
Must try to BREED FORWARD....aka, The "Where to from Now!?" Method....
That is to Say, Forward, From Blacks a Fake, Laz, Quinn, Treacherous, Bettor's etc.....using THE GREAT FILLIES and MARES, not the average ones, of any sex...…….
Time and Breed must move forward!

But some of us love history and want to know the family tree of stallions, not even necessarily for breeding, people want to know if Lazarus is a son of Bettor's and that Bettor's is a son of Cam's .....
And some of us would like to know if Maori's is an Ike or a Bank

It may be impossible to find out but all the claims that ancestry ads make suggest that we may be able to calculate the probability
No doubt having spent some time as a librarian makes me one of those who likes records to be correct :p
It is one of those mysteries that I would love to have solved but I understand that not everybody cares

As far as breeding goes it is not entirlely about the performance of an entire and forget everything else. Not saying they are not worth a gamble but you want to pay the appropriate stud fee for a yet unproven stallion if he does not come from a strong sire line and an accurate stud book/classicfamilies is the source of such information

[Messenger]

This Age article on Phar Lap reminds me of HRA's reluctance to revisit/research Maori's Idol's sire

https://www.theage.com.au/national/phar-lap-s-heart-and-the-battle-to-solve-the-mystery-of-the-horse-s-tragic-end-20211213-p59h7o.html

[Showgrounds]

Refer to my post #28 from 2 years ago. Nothing has changed in my mind from 2 years ago, except you can now add Maori Law's as an Inter winner descended from the immortal Maori Miss. The hoary old chestnut about Bank Note still raises its head nearly 5 decades on.

As an aside, the champion Maori's Idol (foaled 49 years ago) boasted a double cross of Volomite. This has through Light Brigade, sire of his dam's sire Grand Monarch and his OWN SIRE'S dam Nancy Mite. I have always been of the opinion Maori's Idol bore a great resemblance to his ancestor Volomite - see his photo here https://harnessmuseum.com/content/volomite and, like him, was a horse that advanced the breed.

I'll leave it at that.