Breeders Challenge day and thoughts on Menangle

[Messenger]

Lennytheshark $1.35 for the Len Smith - any takers?

http://www.harness.org.au/fields.cfm?mc=PC260616#10

[Amlin]

Are you heading over from Mittagong Kev?

[Messenger]

I had not planned it Kyle but about a week ago I realized the big day fitted my itinerary perfectly.

My first look at Menangle
I was surprised we were in the middle of nowhere, it makes Melton seem suburban (It's got me beat how both states can expect our code to be mainstream when we have gone backwoods)
As for the facility, I was impressed with what I saw (although large sections were closed to the general public today)
As much as I like the promenade at Melton, Menangle's grandstand is much more practical in providing plenty of seating.
I like the museum displays and the stables with their high pitch and viewing platforms make Melton's now look worse than ordinary
As much as I appreciate the racing benefits of the long straight (which includes no need for a cheat's lane) it does make it hard to see what is happening at the bottom of the str

As a spectator, mile racing is not my cup of tea on such a big track - I miss the bell
The long str helped Hector knock off stablemate Lenny despite Gavin wearing a Menangle spray jacket that billowed like a windsock

It was great to see 2011 2yo Challenge winner, Theartofdelusion, one of the 2 ex-pacers under saddle, leading out the fields
They were lucky with the weather today and they really did cater for their 'family' day and were well rewarded with plenty of families there

[Messenger]

Where was the Allstars stable?

[Amlin]

We no doubt passed by Kev as I was there with a group from Vic.

What a great facility and a good day of racing all round.

The All Stars only qualified one...not sure if they ran as many in the series this year.

[Mark Croatto]

[QUOTE=Messenger;46964]I had not planned it Kyle but about a week ago I realized the big day fitted my itinerary perfectly.

"My first look at Menangle
I was surprised we were in the middle of nowhere, it makes Melton seem suburban (It's got me beat how both states can expect our code to be mainstream when we have gone backwoods)"

Hi Kevin

I can't speak for Victoria, but as far as NSW goes, most of the criticism surrounding the move to Menangle from Harold Park is delusional. I've been in the sport for near on 40 years; used to go to Fairfield, Bankstown, Penrith and Harold Park virtually every week and when the decision to sell Harold Park was made the crowds at that venue were non existent. We went from having thousands of people on a Friday night to the point where you could fire a shotgun in the public seating along the home straight and hit nobody! Getting to Harold Park on a Friday night was a living nightmare and the facilities, in particular for the horsemen were woeful. Before the move Harold Park was in a third rate hospital, being cared for with antiquated equipment and on life support; thank goodness they chose to move the patient to best equipped and staffed hospital in Australia.

Whilst many of us bemoan the lack of on course patronage, in NSW we at least have a facility that allows our sport to be conducted on, and presented to its fans and the public, in the very best way possible. Growing up in the western suburbs of Sydney, I spent many a night in the Campbelltown area and know full well how it has exploded as a residential zone. The challenge now is to turn some of those living there into fans of the sport, that however is a different topic. I loved Harold Park, but Menangle has the location and infrastructure to grow the sport. I'm absolutely certain the move to Menangle, at the very least, stalled the imminent death of the patient!

Cheers

[Messenger]

Mark, you certainly know far far more about NSW than I.
I am somewhat embarassed to say that I have never explored your state before - always leapfrogging it in a plane to QLD (apart from my honeymoon up the coast 36yrs ago). I never even made it to Harold Park! I always thought of it as being like our Showgrounds and cannot imagine how it would not pull a crowd if facilities were kept up to date.

On Sunday, I have followed Google maps from Mittagong and subsequently not passed a suburb - we actually missed the turn in road as I thought the sign board was just a promo, consequently we parked on the other side of the railway line (not a bad spot actually). Imagine viewing the entrance for the first time from that side, with the railway platform in the foreground - I call it a platform not a station as the platforms are the only structure. To me it was movie-like, if I had caught a train there I reckon the monument in front of me would have almost seemed imaginary

I gather that Campbelltown would be like Melton, but not simply across the road

My concerns about these locations is that they are a long way from their metropolis
My concern is based upon the need for attendance
I see attendance as the precursor to ownership and as we both know - without horses all we would have would be the TAB's simulated video racing

I am not saying it cannot work - it just seems to me that we are making it harder for ourselves

I thought the train may have had potential but I see it is nearly 2hrs by train and well over an hour by bus but 50 min by car so it is very comparable to Melton in that respect. Melton is always going to get a fair crowd as the location was already where half the converted lived and there is probably less entertainment competition out there

[Mark Croatto]

Hi Kevin

Menangle is on the south western edge of the Sydney metropolitan area, and whilst it certainly has a rural appearance around its immediate perimeter, within only 5 to 30 minutes travelling time to the north, north east, north west, and west of it, there would be conservatively one million or more people living. New housing developments have sprung up constantly in these areas, and even in the immediate locality, owned by the NSW Harness Racing Club there are tracts of land to be developed for housing. Campbelltown itself, a city of more than 500,000 people, is but 7 minutes away and as I said earlier provides unlimited opportunities to grow a local following, all it takes is resolve to do so.

Regards

[Messenger]

http://www.harnesslink.com/Australia/Media-Release---ON-TRACK-FOR-THE-FUTURE

They are certainly trying and are talking about development to the South - the direction I drove in from.
I was stunned at how rural Menangle was but I will not say anymore until I one day see the populated areas to the North that Mark refers to

[p plater]

http://www.harnesslink.com/Australia/Media-Release---ON-TRACK-FOR-THE-FUTURE

They are certainly trying and are talking about development to the South - the direction I drove in from.
I was stunned at how rural Menangle was but I will not say anymore until I one day see the populated areas to the North that Mark refers to

Kev, this link will give you an idea of what's planned http://www.planning.nsw.gov.au/Plans-for-Your-Area/Priority-Growth-Areas-and-Precincts/Wilton-New-Town/Map

[Messenger]

Kev, this link will give you an idea of what's planned http://www.planning.nsw.gov.au/Plans-for-Your-Area/Priority-Growth-Areas-and-Precincts/Wilton-New-Town/Map

Thanks Bailey, that is impressive stuff. Like I said, I have not explored to the North of Menangle but I worry whether HRNSW have made this move 10-20yrs too early
I don't think Melton can be called a Melbourne track but it is not too far for the West of Melbourne to travel to. As for the East (and North) it is too far away and really needs a sister track no further out than Cranbourne to share top billing with it. We do not see the gallops giving up their central metro tracks

[Mark Croatto]

Hi Kevin

Click on this link (https://www.google.com.au/maps/@-34.0861225,150.7467724,9001m/data=!3m1!1e3?hl=en) and you can see the housing to the east, north and north west of Menangle. Zoom in and drag the map straight north to Oran Park, there are thousands upon thousands of homes being constructed and all within 5 to 10 minutes drive .

Regards

Mark

[Messenger]

What timing - on pg7 of today's Melbourne Age newspaper there is a whole half page ad:
People and Business Connect in Parramatta.
It has a map showing demographic circles - 1M within 10k, 3M within 20k, 4M within 30k

[Messenger]

Somebody pm'd me the following:

"Harness racing had an opportunity to set up right next door in the Olympic Precinct at Homebush bay but wouldn't get on board. Tens of thousands of people living in apartments within walking distance now and twice the national consumer spending index. They also passed on going to Fairfield which is only a few ks away.

Sadly Menangle is rural and whilst development is earmarked the Menangle park development was the last of the three satellite cities earmarked by government and is at least 20 years away."

[p plater]

For anyone interested, this article has appeared on line http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/newslocal/macarthur/club-menangle-to-under-a-multimillion-dollar-revamp-to-become-macarthur-regions-new-entertainment-hub/news-story/2f8c2d85175e8ee4266b1f353fe41d93
Recently the Club purchased the Historic "Menangle House" property, this property is on the corner of Menangle Road at the turn off to the track entry. Well done to the Club for the forward thinking. This is also part of the name change to "Club Menangle"
Kev, the Menangle Park part of the development is currently undergoing sewer install and word is 2 years away not 20 years.

[Messenger]

I received a very interesting email from Ray Chaplin suggesting that population does not necessarily translate to attendance at harness tracks.
The tracks at Menangle and Melton have been open for 7+ yrs and we are not seeing increased attendances despite population growth of 10% and 30% already.
Some will see it as early days but Ray points out that:

In South Australia the Salisbury area has more than doubled its population since 1973 yet attendances at Globe Derby Park have declined to levels never before seen.
To suggest that Harness Racing Attendances will grow at Menangle and Melton due to population growth is simply not supported by facts and shows a complete lack of understanding of demographic factors and the weaknesses of the harness racing product offer.
Even the New Meadowlands in the USA with a 7 million population within a 45 minute travelling distance and an new $US 80 million grandstand cannot attract a regular race meeting crowd.

[trish]

This obsession in building harness racing tracks in the middle of nowhere, that people refuse to visit or support, has to stop. It has cost NSW greatly with the mess at Menangle and reports out of Victoria are that they would more heaven and earth to get back to Moonee Valley and start over again



http://www.harnessbred.com/field-of-schemes/

Harold Park WAS the best racing venue IMO & Mooney Valley wasn't far behind it. The sale of Harold Park has boosted prize money but will it save the industry.......I think that starts with breeding, doesn't matter how much prize money you have if haven't got horses you haven't got racing.

[Mark Croatto]

"This obsession in building harness racing tracks in the middle of nowhere, that people refuse to visit or support, has to stop. It has cost NSW greatly with the mess at Menangle and reports out of Victoria are that they would more heaven and earth to get back to Moonee Valley and start over again..."

What has it cost NSW? There was hardly anybody going to Harold Park in the years leading up to its sale; in my opinion the location had diddly squat to do with getting people there! Lines like the above are just a convenient excuse for writers who appear to have little real insight. As I have said quite a few times, the area immediately around Menangle is home to hundreds of thousands of people, tapping into them is what is needed, not continual bleating about a non existent crowd that mythically existed.

Cheers

[Mark Croatto]

Oh, and that original article goes on to make similar unsubstantiated claims about Bathurst. It's pure hearsay and simply mischievous reporting. Bathurst's memberships are UP since their move to the new track, and as someone who has raced horses there with some degree of regularity I have no doubt the average crowd is also UP on what was going to the showground. As I have inferred, that article appears simply as mischievous reporting to justify a personal agenda. Some facts would be handy rather than hearsay and bias!

Cheers

[Messenger]

It is clearly an opinion piece Mark and whose opinion we are not even sure but I posted it to let it be known that there is clearly an issue in Qld
I know you are a supporter of Menangle and like Melton it has a growing population but I think it is fair to say that they are NOT metropolitan tracks that cater for the population centres of Melbourne and Sydney.
I will believe in the strategies when I see the gallops flee the cities

[Mark Croatto]

The gallops are not all that great an example Kevin, Randwick struggles to get mid 20,000's for Doncaster Day, the average metropolitan meetings are a fraction of what they used to be, and forget about a midweek crowd, it's negligible. As I said, the industry needs to work out how to tap into the people that are in the areas around these new tracks but constantly harping about the past, in particular when the more recent past is nothing but a myth, does little to improve the situation.

[Messenger]

We may have been falling short at our Metro tracks - that may have been a marketing etc problem
but there is no denying that we at least had the 'hot dog caravan' where the people were - we just had to sell them on hot dogs

[trish]

Hi Mark, I've thought about what you have said & you are correct. I remember looking across my shoulder when sitting in the stands at HP & saw no one. Last time I was at Menangle I looked over my shoulder when sitting in the stands & saw no one.
So your comment about the position of the track meaning "diddly squat" is absolutely spot on. Menangle has been running since Jan 2011 , so they have had 5 and a half years to get the local population interested & not many are, are they?
With the corruption issues of the past, massive amounts of positives swabs, form that doesn't stand up week in & week out, drives like we saw last week, why the hell would people be interested?
I reckon selling hot dogs , like Kev suggests would be a lot easier than giving away harness racing for free.

[trish]

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2010-12-20/eulogy_to_harold_park/42416


A while ago but a good read.

[Toohard]

Hi Mark, I've thought about what you have said & you are correct. I remember looking across my shoulder when sitting in the stands at HP & saw no one. Last time I was at Menangle I looked over my shoulder when sitting in the stands & saw no one.
So your comment about the position of the track meaning "diddly squat" is absolutely spot on. Menangle has been running since Jan 2011 , so they have had 5 and a half years to get the local population interested & not many are, are they?
With the corruption issues of the past, massive amounts of positives swabs, form that doesn't stand up week in & week out, drives like we saw last week, why the hell would people be interested?
I reckon selling hot dogs , like Kev suggests would be a lot easier than giving away harness racing for free.


There was no one in the crowd at Moonee Valley either Trish. Track location means nothing, getting people interested does.

[Messenger]

I agree that getting the people interested is the most important thing but I cannot agree that track location means nothing. If we could get the product and marketing right we are still not going to attract ¾'s of Melbourne to Melton because it is too far out.
I have to admit to only going to MV for the races this century but went to the trots a fair bit in the 90's and the crowds were OK
The lack of a true metro track disappoints me but as I suggested in another thread - maybe concentrating on country Vic could be just as beneficial

[Mark Croatto]

Menangle has been running since Jan 2011 , so they have had 5 and a half years to get the local population interested & not many are, are they?
With the corruption issues of the past, massive amounts of positives swabs, form that doesn't stand up week in & week out, drives like we saw last week, why the hell would people be interested?
I reckon selling hot dogs , like Kev suggests would be a lot easier than giving away harness racing for free.

Hi Trish, sadly I agree with what you said as well. It's a big ask to overcome the troubles we have had, however we still have a number of people involved. I firmly believe that is where the initial effort has to be directed, ensuring we hang on to who we currently have, give them something to get excited about and through them slowly regrow our sport. Won't be easy but it can be done :-)

[Messenger]

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2010-12-20/eulogy_to_harold_park/42416


A while ago but a good read.

A good read Trish but it would suggest (if you believe the author) that the sport was equally corrupt in its better days. Maybe it has been the increased reporting of misdemeanours or maybe it is just that todays generation were not brought up attending the sports events that we oldies were