2013-2015 Inters

[aussiebreno]

It seems while I was sleeping Greg Hayes has somehow warped my brain and stolen my thoughts.
http://www.harnesslink.com/www/Article.cgi?ID=90553

I'd almost give the article a 10/10 but now I got Say it aint so Joe stuck in my head.

[mango]

I can't believe i'm about to agree with Greg Hayes, under the n.s.w structure i think it is an absolute disgrace. Surely they must be joking right ?

[Don Corleone]

I hope they are joking. Totally agree with the article. If the powers to be think the ID is no longer viable then cease the series. Do not cheapen it and turn it into something it isn't.

[triplev123]

I like Hayes, always have, and while I don't always agree with him he puts his views across from the heart. I can see exactly where he is coming from here in this latest commentary, it has long been his often repeated position however I think he might have gotten one aspect of this a little wrong.
I'm aware of the basics of the proposed conditions & nowhere does it actually guarantee each State & NZ a starter. Rather, what it does it that it guarantees the winners of designated races in each State & NZ a start...and that's something very different. A VIC trained horse can still go to QLD and win such a race. A WA horse can still score in VIC, a TAS horse in NSW, a Kiwi horse in SA or whatever.
As I understand this proposal has been loosely based on an extension of / alteration to the previously employed 'points earned in other GC races' concept. In effect it's going to become an Australasian Grand Circuit Championship where the 'Heats' will be the designated races in each State & NZ and it'll culminate in the Final at Menangle. Personally, I think it's a pretty good idea.

[mango]

Myself i like the 3 heat's and then the final, i like seeing all the top horses go at it for a couple of wks. If n.s.w think they have the best track why not use it.

[aussiebreno]

I like Hayes, always have, and while I don't always agree with him he puts his views across from the heart. I can see exactly where he is coming from here in this latest commentary, it has long been his often repeated position however I think he might have gotten one aspect of this a little wrong.
I'm aware of the basics of the proposed conditions & nowhere does it actually guarantee each State & NZ a starter. Rather, what it does it that it guarantees the winners of designated races in each State & NZ a start...and that's something very different. A VIC trained horse can still go to QLD and win such a race. A WA horse can still score in VIC, a TAS horse in NSW, a Kiwi horse in SA or whatever.
As I understand this proposal has been loosely based on an extension of / alteration to the previously employed 'points earned in other GC races' concept. In effect it's going to become an Australasian Grand Circuit Championship where the 'Heats' will be the designated races in each State & NZ and it'll culminate in the Final at Menangle. Personally, I think it's a pretty good idea.
If heats are on at different day/week then that is stupid as some can go around chasing and lose out once but get a 2nd chance against a different batch of horses; it isnt even (or designed evenly)for all horses. If they are on at the same time then it may not be about the best horse but rather the best placed horse.
Still don't like it!

[David Summers]

Myself i like the 3 heat's and then the final, i like seeing all the top horses go at it for a couple of wks. If n.s.w think they have the best track why not use it.

My thoughts exactly , mango. Surely if it did go ahead in the style proposed by HRNSW , then it would be a travesty to still call it by the title "Interdominion" , with all the history that comes with that.

Regarding Hayes and his often self-important opinions on harness racing matters, I will not make any comment as I might get a bit carried away. However , others may feel the need to always take what he says as gospel , not me ;-)

[Flashing Red]

Bring back the three heats and the final. It separated the men from the boys! Anyone who thinks the modern horses can't do it should watch the 3yos on Jug Day! Racing 2 sometimes 3 times in the one day, with times never slower than about 52 for the colts, all on a half mile track! Good on WA for reverting back to the original format! :)

[triplev123]

I always find it fascinating how so many people in the Harness Racing Industry are taken aback by those who feel it neccessary to stridently express their views about where the Industry has been, where it is at present and where it should be headed in the future.
I've been watching these absolutely wonderful Standardbreds of ours go around since back when I wasn't tall enough to see over the outside fence & was of an age where I didn't have to worry about going to school the next day if we got home late from a Sunday meeting...and little has changed in the ensuing 38 odd years as far as the way in which the Industry meets change.
Whenever they're confronted by views that are a little outside the square...there has always existed a widespread desire to turn a blind eye and pretend it is not happening and so continue to live in a state of blissful ignorance...and woe betide the messenger of anything and everything that did not allow this situation to continue ad infinitum.
It is true that Hayes balances rather beautifully upon the fence in respect of a great deal of the above and a great deal of the time too because while he is quite forward thinking in many areas he's also back with the Dinosaurs in some others, with this particular ID discussion IMO being a very good example thereof.
Nevertheless I can't pot the guy the forthrightness of his views and I will take his part when anyone lines up on the guy personally. We all see things through our own individual prisms and IMO if we had more people that were as passionate about things as he is then I'd be pretty damned pleased about it let me tell you.
The simple answer to the question that Hayes and others pose as to why the ID needs to undergo some level of change, in this instance a quite substantial level of change, is the same basic answer to question of why the thankfully now defunct NSW Sires Stakes needed to be given the rocket...IT WAS NO LONGER WORKING. The ID Brand was also NO LONGER WORKING.
Perhaps, if I have my understanding of the new/proposed format right, GC races effectively being Heats leading up to a GC/ID Final at Menangle will work a treat, perhaps for reasons unforseen it won't. We'll know in due course & it will not be the end of the world that some are painting the finding out period to be. One thing is for sure, doing nothing & leaving it basically rudderless as it is now...will definitely see us preside over the ID's demise.

[nat]

What is the point of tending for a series that gives the races away to other states and countries I don't get it they would be better of not bidding and making their own series, I don't like it one bit but I'm a bit of a traditionalist I like the boxing day test to be on boxing day I like the Melbourne Cup run on the first Tuesday of November and I like the Inter Dominion run the old way three heats and a final. I might take me old claimer down to Globe Derby and hope for an incident and make a Inter final wouldn't that make for excitement in the final if that happened a couple of times a couple of flogged out claimer racing for a million dollars. Give it up its has to be a joke it's not April 1st again Aussiebreno LOL

[aussiebreno]

I always find it fascinating how so many people in the Harness Racing Industry are taken aback by those who feel it neccessary to stridently express their views about where the Industry has been, where it is at present and where it should be headed in the future.
I've been watching these absolutely wonderful Standardbreds of ours go around since back when I wasn't tall enough to see over the outside fence & was of an age where I didn't have to worry about going to school the next day if we got home late from a Sunday meeting...and little has changed in the ensuing 38 odd years as far as the way in which the Industry meets change.
Whenever they're confronted by views that are a little outside the square...there has always existed a widespread desire to turn a blind eye and pretend it is not happening and so continue to live in a state of blissful ignorance...and woe betide the messenger of anything and everything that did not allow this situation to continue ad infinitum.
It is true that Hayes balances rather beautifully upon the fence in respect of a great deal of the above and a great deal of the time too because while he is quite forward thinking in many areas he's also back with the Dinosaurs in some others, with this particular ID discussion IMO being a very good example thereof.
Nevertheless I can't pot the guy the forthrightness of his views and I will take his part when anyone lines up on the guy personally. We all see things through our own individual prisms and IMO if we had more people that were as passionate about things as he is then I'd be pretty damned pleased about it let me tell you.
The simple answer to the question that Hayes and others pose as to why the ID needs to undergo some level of change, in this instance a quite substantial level of change, is the same basic answer to question of why the thankfully now defunct NSW Sires Stakes needed to be given the rocket...IT WAS NO LONGER WORKING. The ID Brand was also NO LONGER WORKING.
Perhaps, if I have my understanding of the new/proposed format right, GC races effectively being Heats leading up to a GC/ID Final at Menangle will work a treat, perhaps for reasons unforseen it won't. We'll know in due course & it will not be the end of the world that some are painting the finding out period to be. One thing is for sure, doing nothing & leaving it basically rudderless as it is now...will definitely see us preside over the ID's demise.
I've heard 1000 people says its broke; but I haven't heard one reason why its broke?
The GC/ID final won't work for reasons I listed above; not for reasons unforseen. Plus why should states change when there race is to please the ID (assuming its 'fair' and races are held on same date). And why should IMTQ miss out because he draws 13 over at GP and gets beaten a whisker. Why should say Decorated Jasper avoid the Vics and go to South Australia and get a spot. Or why should Ohoka Nevada be gifted a spot? Or why should Gedlee be given a spot because he won in Tas?????
Why do NZ only get 2 horses in unless they travel to Aust for a heat which is ridiculous. The Kiwi representation is almost always more than 2. They had 4 or 5 in the Sydney one last year.
Or if the state races are on at different times of year what is to say that horse will be racing well come March. Make Mine Cullen was a dead set certainty for the Ladyship Mile and such races but come April she got beaten. Why should some horses like Smoken Up have 6 or 7 chances at winning his way through while others like Make Me Smile only get the 1 chance???
Plus the last couple of spots is chosen by the race club?? Criticising their selections once a year at Miracle Mile time is enough let alone criticising their selections twice a year. Go back to Miracle Mile time and I guarantee one of the main discussions on this forum was who should/who shouldn't be in the race.
NSW had a stand alone Group 1 race over 2 miles. It was called the Ben Hur. Are they missing it????

Hahaha Nat you would be a fair chance I'd say.

[triplev123]

I don't think it's broken as such Breno, rather the traditional ID format has reached its use by date...something that is not helped by the fact that these days it is largely a rudderless ship. Tradition is all well and good but it is not enough in and of itself to justify a stagnation.
Traditionally Witches would be burned at the stake but these days they are allowed to roam free & largely unaccosted, one has even become the Australian PM. :eek:

[David Summers]

vvv- that statement about our PM in your last sentence is completely unnecessary here. I thought you were better than that with that type of remark.

[mango]

Hey Triple

I'll have to agree with you about the PM remark, she is a disgrace, compulsive liar, out of touch and if she speaks any slower you could have a 5 min nap and not miss a word. Carbon taxes means lost job's smart one Julia.

[aussiebreno]

I don't think it's broken as such Breno, rather the traditional ID format has reached its use by date...something that is not helped by the fact that these days it is largely a rudderless ship. Tradition is all well and good but it is not enough in and of itself to justify a stagnation.
Traditionally Witches would be burned at the stake but these days they are allowed to roam free & largely unaccosted, one has even become the Australian PM. :eek:

Being young maybe the ID means something else to me then what it does to the experienced members of the harness fraternity and thus you think its reached it use by date. But I absolutely love the 2 or 3 heats of the top 36 horses then a week of much anticipation followed by the final. It beats every other Grand Circuit race; even Hunter Cups, Vic Cups and Miracle Miles where it could be argue those field are actually stronger in some years. So maybe what I get out of it is different. But if elder statesmen believe the current race series is not deserving of the Interdom title, well rename it and keep doing the same format because I absolutely love it!!!
Or maybe its like golf. You love hitting the ball and enjoy the first 9 holes. But then you get bored with it cos its the same thing and by the 18th you are flaming mad and sick of it!

[Mighty Atom]

Bring back the three heats and the final. It separated the men from the boys! Anyone who thinks the modern horses can't do it should watch the 3yos on Jug Day! Racing 2 sometimes 3 times in the one day, with times never slower than about 52 for the colts, all on a half mile track! Good on WA for reverting back to the original format! :)
Hi Flashing Red and Nat. I agree with both of you. Harping back to the dark ages of the sixties and seventies it wasn't uncommon to race your horse twice in one night and more often than not they would perform better the second start. I'm a bit of a traditionalist but if there is one thing that would sway me is holding the ID's at Menagle - fantastic track-every state should have one.

[triplev123]

G'day Breno,

It seems that there's at least as much if not more objection out there to the changed format still being referred to as the ID as there is objection to the format actually being changed. I'm not the greatest to comment on it really because I prefer 2yo & 3yo Classic Racing to the Open/FFA/Cups/ID ranks.
In saying that, if the format were to change as proposed then I'd dearly LOVE to see a really genuine effort made to create an accompanying 2yo & 3yo Grand Circuit that could travel right alongside the Aged horses. Wouldn't that be something?

[David Summers]

vvv- that would certainly be an interesting concept with the younger horses (I'd certainly like to see that ) , but I think the logistics involved in getting all the states to work together and accept this concept would be a major stumbling block. State authorities all have their own set agendas and as we know can be very stubborn when it comes to change.

[Flashing Red]

Hi Flashing Red and Nat. I agree with both of you. Harping back to the dark ages of the sixties and seventies it wasn't uncommon to race your horse twice in one night and more often than not they would perform better the second start. I'm a bit of a traditionalist but if there is one thing that would sway me is holding the ID's at Menagle - fantastic track-every state should have one.

Qld could have one but there is too much squabbling going on at the moment!! :( In the US, they all warm up their horses and sometimes the drivers in the score down turn them and work them a mile trip as well! They all seem to believe they race better after a warm up and/or blowout on racenight. I go through periods of gym involvement, when running I feel exhausted the first 5-10 minutes but then its like you get a second wind. I'm sure its the same for horses (ever driven one that's sluggish the first trip yet on the steel by the second or third trip when you're at home??) :)

[aussiebreno]

G'day Breno,

It seems that there's at least as much if not more objection out there to the changed format still being referred to as the ID as there is objection to the format actually being changed. I'm not the greatest to comment on it really because I prefer 2yo & 3yo Classic Racing to the Open/FFA/Cups/ID ranks.
In saying that, if the format were to change as proposed then I'd dearly LOVE to see a really genuine effort made to create an accompanying 2yo & 3yo Grand Circuit that could travel right alongside the Aged horses. Wouldn't that be something?
I guess they go hand in hand. I don't like the format being changed because I like it that way. And I guess it isn't the 'traditional' Interdominion brand. That word tradition you mentioned earlier. But for me its tradition because thats what people want and the unwillingness to change isn't because it's traditional but rather because I like things the way they are. Keeping to my golf analogy; it they outlawed the use of putters I'd get the shits because I like using a putter, not because its tradition to use a putter.
2yo grand circuit...don't like it. There are enough races for them to earn recognition; APG, ABC, Statebreds and the 2yos often don't meet other because these races are exclusive and paid up series. So the elite don't meet each other much. Those race series are not going to go away and be replaced so the only option is to add additional races. It's pretty rare for a horse to win the APG, Statebred, ABC let alone two or three open 2yo grand circuit races on top of that. There is enough racing for the 2yos already imo; maybe races like Sapling Stakes and Tatlow could move to G1 to cater for 2yos that aren't paid up for other races if there was a need to increase the amount of top class 2yo racing but having trainers chasing a grand prize of the Grand Circuit with 2yos is something I don't like. We may have a situation where only 2 or 3 go chasing the grand circuit and get one win and a couple placings whereas there are a couple of better 2yos who stuck to a few races makes the grand circuit award a bit of a puff puff award.
3yo grand circuit. Yeah good idea. Make something more of the Derbies and plan the timing of these races. Apart from SA because there prizemoney is ordinary the states could work something out where the Statebred may only clash with 1 interstate derby which allows the horses to get to more derbies. A lot of the 3yos can handle the extra racing and it might even prepare them for Aged Racing. I mean how many star 3yos just don't go on?

[aussiebreno]

Qld could have one but there is too much squabbling going on at the moment!! :( In the US, they all warm up their horses and sometimes the drivers in the score down turn them and work them a mile trip as well! They all seem to believe they race better after a warm up and/or blowout on racenight. I go through periods of gym involvement, when running I feel exhausted the first 5-10 minutes but then its like you get a second wind. I'm sure its the same for horses (ever driven one that's sluggish the first trip yet on the steel by the second or third trip when you're at home??) :)
I'm the opposite Flashing. At footy I try my best to avoid the warm up because I like to go in fresh, and its not because I'm unfit. But yes many people say to keep running until you get your second wind.
On a related note I also understand how horses can hit the wall and need a spell. Had a week off training last week and feel so much better for it.

[Flashing Red]

If I were a horse I would be a good doer that is thick winded and needs drilling and is unfortunately one-paced. lol. :P

On another note, most horses I find seem to go (as in feel and travel better) with trips, but some it doesn't matter what you do...

[triplev123]

".........and needs drilling".

Geeze Flashing. Is Mr. Flashing aware of this? Not sure you should mention such things in a Public Forum. You'll have admin. all over your case. All I said was Wanker and he was onto me like a starving seagull on an errantly cast off hot chip. :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes: :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

[Flashing Red]

lmao, I'm sure someone will run and tell him! lol! It was actually in reference to the effort it takes for me to loose weight nowadays! It was so easy when I was a teenager! Sitting on my backside doing uni all the time isn't helping the cause either! lol! I'm getting old!

[nat]

I love seeing good horses race on big race card and would watch these races but wouldn't make it for an Inter Dominion for me in my heart. Wouldn't it be better to race around the state of NSW in the heats to show case harness racing to all or don't they think they have the tracks to do this and to race so many big event races on the one card dose sometime take some of the gloss off who would remember the winner of a Derby on the same night as an Inter final. Their whole concept is absurd is this why NSW racing has dwelled for so long with power thinking like this?

[mango]

Does anyone know what the Christchurch proposal/format was.

[aussiebreno]

http://www.smh.com.au/sport/horseracing/its-our-money-on-the-line-menangle-boss-defends-interdom-proposals-20110709-1h7sc.html

Don't get me wrong I'd love watching an elite 3000m race at Menangle; just not under the ID banner. If no-one else wants it then maybe it is time for the ID to hit the grave and NSW can run this format but call it the Ben Hur. It might be time NSW got a 3rd grand circuit race back. Or perhaps they won't be able to get the same payday if its called Ben Hur as opposed to ID....I don't know the answer but would be interesting to know.

[aussiebreno]

This isn't an anti HRNSW/anti Menangle thing. Below the ID article is an article on the race callers scheme; well done to them on giving these lesser knowns a crack.

[nat]

Look I love the ID been to several and Grand Circuit racing and if the NSW want to race big events at Menangle do so the industry is better off for it but don't butcher the ID concept give it another name and system. the issue at hand is tendering for more than one year makes it hard to get backing for more than one year yet alone more just look at Vic the state government has been good to harness racing in recent years and even then it was hard to put a package together.

[Love Of Courage]

Hello All,

I miss the old 3 heats and a final format. Gave you many oppurtunities to see your favourite horse race over several nights. To me it epitomises what the standardbred is all about : speed and toughness.

[gold-ace]

LOC..wouldnt having heats spread around the country give you a better opportunity to see the top line horses? but imo the biggest positive of the new series is the the boost it will give for the 2nd tier horses, as we saw in NZ when that level drops away the series is pretty much treading water hoping the big guns draw each other to prevent a whitewash

the hunter cup is the best race of the calendar, long distance, good lead up races and handicapped = perfect big race

[David Summers]

Hello All,

I miss the old 3 heats and a final format. Gave you many opportunities to see your favourite horse race over several nights. To me it epitomises what the standardbred is all about : speed and toughness.

Strongly agree with your every word.

[aussiebreno]

Hello All,

I miss the old 3 heats and a final format. Gave you many oppurtunities to see your favourite horse race over several nights. To me it epitomises what the standardbred is all about : speed and toughness.
+1


LOC..wouldnt having heats spread around the country give you a better opportunity to see the top line horses? but imo the biggest positive of the new series is the the boost it will give for the 2nd tier horses, as we saw in NZ when that level drops away the series is pretty much treading water hoping the big guns draw each other to prevent a whitewash

the hunter cup is the best race of the calendar, long distance, good lead up races and handicapped = perfect big race

No; I believe these 'heats' are called FFAs and race for about $20'000 every Friday/Saturday/Sunday night in each state 52 weeks of the year!
I don't really get what you mean re your comment on 2nd teir horses.
In WA Imthemightyquinn will win barring bad luck in a hands down contest, Smoken Up will 'probably' win in Vic but then its just russian roulette depending on where trainers choose to go. A horse like Villagem who is deserving of a final spot may have to go to South Aust or Tasmania to get away from Smoken Up meaning the Vic race is weakened; if this plan goes ahead HRV may as well book the boat with 10 stalls and find a 10horse float to take away to Globe Derby; they can pick up a couple NSWelshman at the border!

[Shakamaker]

the hunter cup is the best race of the calendar, long distance, good lead up races and handicapped = perfect big race

Ironic statement given that the Hunter Cup no longer attracts the very best horses to it.

The field for the Miracle Mile and the Victoria Cup in recent years has easily surpassed the quality and depth in the Hunter Cup.

[ITMQ]

couldnt hold my tongue at that comment shakamaker...

is ITMQ not a good horse??? soon to be winner of the interdominion
stunin cullen actually beat smoken up in the ballarat cup the start before the hunter cup before going amiss with his throat issues
smiling shard runs 4th in inter final

blacky won in 2008
mr feelgood 2009
sting lika bee 2007
elsu 2005

its a HANDICAP race shakamaker, which means its a tough race to be dominated year after year (i think blossom lady, pure steel the only horses to go back to back) furthermore i think pre post markets go up soonest for hunter cup which means its a positive race from a betting point of view

[nat]

Ditto ITMQ

The Hunter Cup is my favorite race of the year, there are 4 race to watch every year NZ Cup, Miracle Mile, Hunter Cup and the Inter Dominion I attempt to be at the Hunter Cup and Breeders Crown each year ( could be surpassed by the Redwood Day attending my first one this week)

[David Summers]

nat - You can't beat the atmosphere at a Redwood Day. Good luck , hope you back plenty of winners :-)

[Don Corleone]

I have many favourite carnivals I like watching but my favourites are as you stated Nat, The Hunter Cup, NZ Cup, Miracle Mile and Inters. They are true tests of speed and endurance. Every horse that ever gets to win such a race is a champion for having won it.