Why is the SA Pacing Cup a group 1 Event?

[Fan of Jate]

Compare the Fremantle Cup field to the SA cup run tonight which is also a Group 1 race but should be a Group 3 race IMO. Apart from Smolda the rest seemed to be good claimers. I am not sure how the Group races are sanctioned-Is it based on prizemoney or each states biggest race in the calendar year?

[Messenger]

Pat, ideally you want the sport healthy throughout Australia and thus the Grand 'Circuit'

[aussiebreno]

Pat, ideally you want the sport healthy throughout Australia and thus the Grand 'Circuit'

So are you saying SA, QLD and Tas should have races on the Grand Circuit?

I like that they've changed the Grand Circuit to no longer include the SA and Tas races.

[Messenger]

You got me on the Grand Circuit not being Aus/NZ wide Brendan but I do think that ideally it would be good for the sport if SA and QLD had Grand Circuit races - well at least a good sign. IMO the fact that they dont just indicates the decline in the sport. Not that the Grand Circuit stands for anything more than - the best Gp1 races. The gallops don't use a grand circuit label and NSW and VIC with their greater population density are likely to remain the strongest states in both codes but I see Perth & Brisbane still having true Metro tracks as a big advantage (but I don't want to open up that argument again)

[Fan of Jate]

I don't have any problem with where they are held and Tas, Qld and SA can be part of a grand circuit as long as the horsepower is there to race in their nominated group 1. You don't have grand prix races with half the good drivers out do you? The Horsham cup had a much better field and for less money and a Group 2 race. I cant work that out. I feel the administrators have got the process wrong with this. But it did look like a good crowd at the SA cup which is healthy and good to see.

[Messenger]

Money generally talks Pat and normally the best horses are going to be in the races with the best prizemoney (provided it does not harm their chances in another targeted race)
But sometimes a few extra grand is not going to be enough to motivate a stable to travel interstate or maybe the presence of a horse like Smolda can put a few off?

[Butchers Hook]

The powers that be would like to make SA harness racing appear relevant.....it is dead but not buried. Having a group 1 race on its calendar helps to make it appear so. A case in point are the following stats based on a 10 year time lapse. Yesterdays meeting at gdp (9/1) garnered the following numbers. 8 race programme, 62 horses, 45 trainers, 29 drivers. 10 years prior 15/1 (8/1 was a junior drivers title so figures not relevant) 9 race programme, 85 horses, 68 trainers, 41 drivers. I dare not alarm anyone by making note of what these figures may have been another 10 years prior. It is with much sorrow that I watch Adelaide harness racing fall into a deeper abyss of insignificance by the day.

[Messenger]

It is happening in Vic too Darryl, to cover up the fact that we have had numerous 6 race meetings due to lack of numbers, we are soon to have less meetings

[Fan of Jate]

This is happening in other sports as well, football teams are folding etc etc, so it is basically a natural attrition of this day and age. I am not sure if Darryl's figures mean much because their is nothing in the post to suggest why their is a reduction in numbers in SA and how this associates with the SA pacing cup being a Group 1. I am not sure that owners/trainers may not travel to race against a top FFA like Smolda, this is like handing all your candy to the bully and not fighting back. Kev, I can definitely see less meetings being the go in the future.


I would like to hear aussiebrenos reasons as to why he likes the Grand circuit not including SA and Tas.

[aussiebreno]

This is happening in other sports as well, football teams are folding etc etc, so it is basically a natural attrition of this day and age. I am not sure if Darryl's figures mean much because their is nothing in the post to suggest why their is a reduction in numbers in SA and how this associates with the SA pacing cup being a Group 1. I am not sure that owners/trainers may not travel to race against a top FFA like Smolda, this is like handing all your candy to the bully and not fighting back. Kev, I can definitely see less meetings being the go in the future.


I would like to hear aussiebrenos reasons as to why he likes the Grand circuit not including SA and Tas.
Grand circuit is reserved for the best of the best and the SA Cup, Tas Cup, Truer Memorial were diminishing the value of the grand circuit. The class of the winners may not have been much difference, but the class of the placegetters and also runs are significant.

[Fan of Jate]

Never really heard of a grand circuit race in any sport where the quality of place getters diminishes the value. What is the value then and how is that measured? The winner still gets the prizemoney, the crowds still turn up and betting ring is full, what else is there?
My original point was to compare the Fremantle cup to the SA pacing cup and the field in the SA pacing was weak but this doesn't always have to be the case-The three non "grand circuit"states are also isolated from Sydney and Melbourne , this may be one feeble reason being used i.e distance but I doubt it. But not having all states involved in the "grand circuit" at least for a few more years is a bit ridiculous.

[aussiebreno]

Never really heard of a grand circuit race in any sport where the quality of place getters diminishes the value. What is the value then and how is that measured? The winner still gets the prizemoney, the crowds still turn up and betting ring is full, what else is there?
My original point was to compare the Fremantle cup to the SA pacing cup and the field in the SA pacing was weak but this doesn't always have to be the case-The three non "grand circuit"states are also isolated from Sydney and Melbourne , this may be one feeble reason being used i.e distance but I doubt it. But not having all states involved in the "grand circuit" at least for a few more years is a bit ridiculous.
I wasn't going to mention it but the prizemoney is $100,000. Lowest on the grand circuit is $ 250,000.
Did the crowds fill up, was the betting ring full? Anyway those things can happen at country meets so irrelevant.
The placegetters do diminish the value. The Grand Circuit is about the best of the best all coming together to battle to see who is the best of the absolute stars of the sport, not 1 or 2 of the best coming together. The winner of the Miracle Mile, ID, Vic Cup, NZ Cup etc all beat a way superior field to that of the SA Cup, Tas Cup, Truer Memorial so its only fair the winners of those superior races get special mention as grand circuit winners. The SA Cup is still a Gp1 so I don't really see an issue.

[thepacingman]

[QUOTE=aussiebreno;49334] The Grand Circuit is about the best of the best all coming together to battle to see who is the best of the absolute stars of the sport, not 1 or 2 of the best coming together. The winner of the Miracle Mile, ID, Vic Cup, NZ Cup etc all beat a way superior field to that of the SA Cup, Tas Cup, Truer Memorial so its only fair the winners of those superior races get special mention as grand circuit winners.QUOTE]
Neither should the WA Cup be called a Grand Circuit race either. It and the Freo Cup last week are nothing more than glorified local free-for-alls. 11 horses are racing in both of them. Only Franco Nelson is not and he pulled up sore last week. No interstate visitors. The prize money for these races is way over the top. They could be two $50,000 races and get the same field. OK make them $100,000 and call them Group 1 but Grand Circuit no way. No best of the best here.

[Big Max]

Brilliantly said Stephen,there must be something not quite right when 750000 for 2 races cannot attract 1 interstate or Nz group horse. That's serious money! A better spread of that money might be more useful.having said that they are always great races to watch.

[Mighty Atom]

[QUOTE=aussiebreno;49334] The Grand Circuit is about the best of the best all coming together to battle to see who is the best of the absolute stars of the sport, not 1 or 2 of the best coming together. The winner of the Miracle Mile, ID, Vic Cup, NZ Cup etc all beat a way superior field to that of the SA Cup, Tas Cup, Truer Memorial so its only fair the winners of those superior races get special mention as grand circuit winners.QUOTE]
Neither should the WA Cup be called a Grand Circuit race either. It and the Freo Cup last week are nothing more than glorified local free-for-alls. 11 horses are racing in both of them. Only Franco Nelson is not and he pulled up sore last week. No interstate visitors. The prize money for these races is way over the top. They could be two $50,000 races and get the same field. OK make them $100,000 and call them Group 1 but Grand Circuit no way. No best of the best here.

The WA Pacing Cup not being called a Grand Circuit race? - unbelievable. Australia's oldest continuosly run Harness Racing event won by many great champions over many years - no more needs to be said. As for Queensland racing your major races are made up of many ex NSW horses who are finding it difficult to win in their home state and of the local brigade they wouldn't warrant a start in the WA Cup. Queensland, South Australian harness racing is in a moribund state and in a few more years the coup de grace will be delivered leaving the only three viable harness racing states left.

[Mighty Atom]

Brilliantly said Stephen,there must be something not quite right when 750000 for 2 races cannot attract 1 interstate or Nz group horse. That's serious money! A better spread of that money might be more useful.having said that they are always great races to watch.

I don't know if you were on this forum a few years ago Ross when I was saying exactly the same thing. With all the money available at Gloucester Park over the ID period extending into the WA and Fremantle Cups seriously big money matched by nowhere else in Australia or New Zealand so why are there no interstate or NZ performers? is that WA Harness Racing's fault? - No. I'll tell you the reason, unless you have horses the calibre of Lennytheshark or HectorJayJay you haven't got much chance of winning against the locals that is what keeps them away.

[Messenger]

Brilliantly said Stephen,there must be something not quite right when 750000 for 2 races cannot attract 1 interstate or Nz group horse. That's serious money! A better spread of that money might be more useful.having said that they are always great races to watch.

There is a side benefit however - WA money staying in WA

[KTQ]

I'd say it's because it's a huge ass long flight to WA, and there are few flights as it is. It's a long expensive way to go if you draw bad, particularly on a track like GP.

[thepacingman]

I'd say it's because it's a huge ass long flight to WA, and there are few flights as it is. It's a long expensive way to go if you draw bad, particularly on a track like GP.
Both true.
Add to that the few flights there are, always a chance to be cancelled at short notice.
Over many years I've always laughed at the number of interstate horses who head west and then end up with the visitor's draw. Conspiracy theorists would have a field day.
I reckon the Sandgropers are still gnawing their teeth today over Jofess drawing the pole. :)

[Fan of Jate]

Stephen that was cruel and nasty about Jofess :)


But on a more serious note, the excuses being trotted out about bad draws at GP , flights too long, too much money allocated for prizemoney, unreliable flights etc etc are laughable. If you have got a good FFA horse you will take them anywhere to win some money to pay your bills and have a few quiet ones on the front porch.


What happens when there are no more big races or decent money in the weaker states- do you abandon them? There seems to be a lot of short sightedness going on under the guise of "grand circuits" "decentralisation", "merger"s etc by selfish big spenders or so called big spenders in NSW and Vic who continually whinge. You yourselves will be eventually squeezed out by those above you with more money in their pockets. Remember that there are about 4 good Australian bred FFA horses in the land, the rest of the top horses are kiwi's and they will keep on coming and keep winning the big races. You will be squeezed out to the country circuit, but guess what....they will be there too. Don't dig your own grave.

[Messenger]

It is surprising that there are not any raiders for the $450k WA Cup (& $300k Freo Cup) We have Hector going around in the $60k Shep Cup on Saturday but they cannot be up for everything. After contesting the Inter I guess you either stay for the others or target the $400k Vic Cup in a fortnight, followed by the $500 AG Hunter and then the $750k Miracle Mile. It is somewhat surprising that a few of those not in AU/NZ top 10 didn't decide to aim for the good WA money

[KTQ]

it's not like there aren't metro races in between either. horses can still run in $18/22k races in between ID, Freo Cup and Pacing Cup. Plus horses get to go to the beach which they love

[aussiebreno]

Stephen that was cruel and nasty about Jofess :)


But on a more serious note, the excuses being trotted out about bad draws at GP , flights too long, too much money allocated for prizemoney, unreliable flights etc etc are laughable. If you have got a good FFA horse you will take them anywhere to win some money to pay your bills and have a few quiet ones on the front porch.


What happens when there are no more big races or decent money in the weaker states- do you abandon them? There seems to be a lot of short sightedness going on under the guise of "grand circuits" "decentralisation", "merger"s etc by selfish big spenders or so called big spenders in NSW and Vic who continually whinge. You yourselves will be eventually squeezed out by those above you with more money in their pockets. Remember that there are about 4 good Australian bred FFA horses in the land, the rest of the top horses are kiwi's and they will keep on coming and keep winning the big races. You will be squeezed out to the country circuit, but guess what....they will be there too. Don't dig your own grave.
I think there are bigger problems than if the SA Cup is on the grand circuit or not. What difference would it make for the strength of SA racing? Nil.

[Fan of Jate]

I have to agree with Mighty Atom on his points regarding horses capable of winning the big money at GP. His posts are based on fact and not emotion as per other posts from different members. IMO quite a few of the eastern states horses are over rated. Kev has mentioned a few good ones who will enter the Vic cup etc but they are the same three usually. I am of the opinion that no eastern states horse could win a big FFA race (any race more than 2130m) in WA now regardless of what draw they get. I exclude Lenny, Hector and Smolda, two of whom are proven champions and can win from any mark, anywhere. Soho Tribeca is capable of causing an upset but that is about it.

[Gtrain]

You may want to watch the interdominion final again and pay particular attention to the horse that ran 4th, Pat.

[Fan of Jate]

I did pay attention to that horse before I Posted Grant and no doubt any horse that has won over a million is top of the range and it has been in very good form. It did win at Bunbury when it drew 3 and inside Lenny the Shark in a field of 9 and it drew 1 in the final in a field of 8. One of the things I looked at was a distance over 2100m where generally barrier 1 loses its advantage against the very best horses but still it is better than what the winner and placegetters got. So I still stand by the comments I made. Bling it on had good draws inside Smolda and Hector and did not win at GP. At Bunbury, I think that Lenny the Shark may have been injured as well and that was probably the weakest field of all the heats. But credit where credit is due and Bling it On is a topline pacer with plenty of upside.

[Gtrain]

Bling got towed backwards behind a WA FFAer that was entitled to run on. I thought you said no eastern state horse would win a WA FFA now. I'd much prefer own Bling than Chicago Bull or Bettors Fire, who are the favored two in tonight's race. Outside of the winner of the interdom, he was clearly the run of the race. Went super in each heat also.

[aussiebreno]

Bling got towed backwards behind a WA FFAer that was entitled to run on. I thought you said no eastern state horse would win a WA FFA now. I'd much prefer own Bling than Chicago Bull or Bettors Fire, who are the favored two in tonight's race. Outside of the winner of the interdom, he was clearly the run of the race. Went super in each heat also.
Get your point with Bling but Chicago Bull could be a real good one - he is only 4 so has potential to get better.

[aussiebreno]

Get your point with Bling but Chicago Bull could be a real good one - he is only 4 so has potential to get better.
$288,000 reasons to own Chicago Bull!

[Messenger]

Not only the winner but also the other 4yo Soho Tribeca was outstanding.
In their juvenile days they both raced against Waikiki - it would be interesting to see them meet again

[arlington]

Not being familiar with Soho Tribeca's racing pattern so I'll have to ask, why wouldn't he have come out in front of Chicago Bull?

[Messenger]

I always thought the Kilmore Cup was better than a Gp2 race

*https://www.harness.org.au/fields.cfm?mc=KI180317&fromstate=vic#7