Raceday Medications USA

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lethal

Jaimie,
Read the post...............It's a quote...........self explanatory.....NO?

[VVV] No, it's not and that's the point Lee. Can't you see?
You're agreeing with and eagerly (re) posting something which you think backs up your argument.... BUT it didn't bother expand upon/back up its claims by way of offering up specific examples of the drugs which it claims have been inapropriately classified as therapeutic...and apparently nor are you able to do so.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Triple V

[VVV] Comprehension 101 there Dot. You've read it but because of a prior held view akin to a Limpet on a rock and so a pre-determined spin on the thrust of that piece, your summation/synopsis is so far off the runway as to have landed in the native plant regeneration area.
Go read it over again. That story is COMPLETELY in line with what I've been saying all along. VOR has raised a point ages ago that in his opinion EIPH is the single biggest animal welfare issue the Industry faces and that there are better anti-bleeder meds around than Lasix, two points with which I completely agree. To my knowledge nobody on this Forum has raised the need for a US style pre race Lasix program to be introduced here in Oz, not VOR nor me (and if I have done so then I was wrong)... and nor anyone else as far as I can recall but please, by all means, don't let that stand in the way of a good story.
Interestingly one of those much better anti-bleeder options around that VOR speaks of is the substance that Geoff Small was jammed up for, Amicar or versions thereof.

Incidentally Dot, you've invoked the names of some of the greats of the Breed there, Meadow Skipper, Bret Hanover, Albatross & Cam Fella to buttress your point by way of.... QUOTE [The legends of harness racing such as Meadow Skipper, Bret Hanover, Albatross, Cam Fella all had lengthy racing careers in an era of heat and final racing on the same day and before race day meds were common. I'll leave you to make your own comparisons with the stallions of today. I think the LBJ is about the only same day heat and final race left.]

Lengthy careers? Comparisons with the stallions of today? You need to do your homework Dot.
Insofar as the length of their respective race careers go...
Meadow Skipper had 86 starts lifetime incl. 27 as a 2yo and retired as a 3yo with a mark of 1:55.1.
Albatross had 71 starts lifetime and retired as a 4yo with a mark of 1:54.3
Bret Hanover had 68 starts lifetime and retired as a 4yo with a TT mark of 1:53.3
Cam Fella had 80 starts lifetime and retired as a 4yo with a mark of 1:53.1.

The 'before race day meds were common' piece makes me chuckle Dot, seriously.
That's one of the best 'passing of time serving to glorify history' efforts I've read in a long, long time.
Race day meds have been going around since back before Hannibal used to drench his War Elephants with a mixture of hot Mullberry juice & assorted goodies in order to encourage them to punch-on.
Rumours abounded for years that Billy Direct raced on Heroin and back then it was quite commonplace for horses to be drenched with Laudnum. It was often referred to as Texas Tea. I can remember certain people doing that here in Australia back when I was only a small child. They'd tube them on-course.
The late Laurie Moulds was a specialist at it. He had a Catholic Priest who used to act as his lookout. So please, let's not make out as though racing was somehow so much purer back then and the horses so much better and more noble then than they are now because that is simply delusional.

Additional. One of today's stallions, Rock N Roll Heaven, went 2 Heats to win the Jug and tossed down a pair of World Record 1:49.4 miles on a half mile track. Not bad.

Well I guess I should not be surprised Bill VVV both of you in your haste to shoot the messanger failed to read the message. This thread was not about your opinions on EIPH or the use of Lasix but regarding your opinion that team driving or whip use are bigger issues for racing/harness racing then the use of drugs, therapeutic or otherwise. Bill I do actually recall reading you write "not Lasix too complicated". I think neither of you appreciate just what a giant leap this is for US racing. You should note that the owners have not pledged to have their jockeys not use the whip or engage in team riding. They also pledged not to use adjunct anti bleeder medications either. The New York Times is not a Murdoch tabloid and after the CBS network evening news anchor threw to commercial with "after the break we will be talking about an event where all the competitors are on a performance enhancing drug" before the third leg of the galloping triple crown, I guess the message became loud and clear.

Geoff Smalls positive swab was to tranexamic acid which is about 10 times stronger then aminocaproic acid which is in Amicar. They sound good for controlling EIPH but you need to understand the fine print. These drugs prevent blood clots from breaking down, thus helping to seal off the capilliaries in the lungs when a horse bleeds but the formation and breakdown of clots is a constant process in the blood stream and these drugs also prevent these clots in the bloodstream from breaking down increasing the risk of pulmonary embolism, cardiac arrest or stroke if a clot travels to the lungs, heart or brain. Exactly what the risk is is for experts to decide but it does exist.

So VVV Meadow Skipper had 59 starts by your reckoning as a 3yo? Pretty amazing don't you think? Who needs to do their homework then, Meadow Skipper actually retired as a 5yo. Delete his 7 starts as a 5yo and he has a very comparable record to the other 3 at the completion of their 4yo season. I wasn't talking solely about careers in terms of years but in numbers of starts also, and in an era of heat and final racing. And if they were "treated" with illegal pre race medications then that just makes their durability even more remarkable.

Compare this to most of the stallions on offer today? Sure Four Starzz Shark, Mister Big and Mr Feelgood had similar numbers of starts but over more seasons. How about the 2008, 2009, 2010 USTA 2yo's of the year on offer now? Obviously talented and successfull but not as durable. I'm sure this is where you say but they are faster now, The TB's aren't faster now but their stats as a population has reduced from over 11 starts to just over 6 starts in the permissive medication era.

I know Rock N Roll Heaven went two sub 50 miles in the jug, also Bolt The Duer (which didn't rate a mention here) went 1:47.4 on a 1000m track in the Adios. Tell me again why we built 1400m at Menangle?

Quote:

Originally Posted by dizzy

I'm sure this is where you say but they are faster now, The TB's aren't faster now but their stats as a population has reduced from over 11 starts to just over 6 starts in the permissive medication era.

I know Rock N Roll Heaven went two sub 50 miles in the jug, also Bolt The Duer (which didn't rate a mention here) went 1:47.4 on a 1000m track in the Adios. Tell me again why we built 1400m at Menangle?

TBs reduced starts...higher population, less time fiddling with those that aren't good enough.

1400m track at Menangle. Consistently faster times.

Dot

I think you have missed the point the big push in the USA is not about banning therapeutic drugs in the way you are presenting it it is very much more about the banning of race day treatments of those drugs.

Lasix for instance is used in many jurisdictions as a non race day medication when horses are working fast personally I have an issue with this from an animal welfare issue because it will cause the horses to dehydrate when working ... however others will say it has a greater therapeutic value because they will not suffer EIPH.

The point is and be sure on this, the change in the USA is about race day treatments only, nothing more nothing less, it matters little what spin you want to put on it , the push is about bringing the USA in line with the majority of the racing world ...it is called harmonisation of the rules and trust me it has a long way to go and neither you or I will see it.

I've got to call CRAP on something there.

G'day Dot,

Attempting to link that which you perceive to be a lack of durability in the breed & then suggesting it has been caused by the use of therapeutics and then pinning that on the nothing short of outstanding range of Sires available to Southern Hemisphere Breeders for this coming season...and further, doing so without even so much as a shread of evidence to support your agument....for mine is an argument holding as much water as past attempts by others to link a perceived lack of career longevity with juvenile racing.

Here in the Southern Hemisphere, the Standardbred Breed of today is an infinitely better conformed, better gaited, more precocious, faster & more durable animal now than it ever was 50-40-30-20 and even as recently as 10 years ago. In my mind there is absolutely no doubt about that whatsoever.

Futhermore, Official Figures reflect the same in that while foal numbers have dropped away considerably over the past 20 years or so...not only are the foals we are producing making it to the racetrack in greater numbers each season...they are having more starts at 2yrs & 3yrs and they are in fact also making considerably more total career starts than their predecessors ever did.
Here in Australia it is an inescapable fact, go have a look for yourself if you doubt me, that we are conducting more races per week Nationally than we ever did 20 years plus ago and hand in hand with that, we're doing so with considerably fewer horses being bred.
That is of course in turn a direct reflection of the ever increasing quality and quantity of outstanding Sires and Siring propsects becoming available to Breeders in the same period.
To suggest otherwsie simply flies in the face of Official stats, Official studies and a simple commonsense observation and assessment of same.
Nice try, but no Cigar.

Quote:

Originally Posted by racefair

EIPH can be a big problem. I think that some Aussie trainers have treatments for it which has been evidenced by known "bleeders" coming from the United States and competing here like Mr Feelgood.
“Australian medication rules are far more stringent than in North America. That includes no Lasix which Mr Feelgood had raced with since January 1 of last
year.” – Article published in March 2009 http://www.theharnessedge.com/pdf-co...er_HE_0309.pdf

Jett I don't know if Mr Feelgood is a known bleeder, as racing in the US on lasix is not actually definative evidence that a horse is a bleeder. There were requirements previously that a horse had to be certified as a bleeder by a vet to race on lasix but in many jurisdictions these days trainers can race horses on lasix by choice. The stats are over 90% of TB's and 70% standardbreds in the US race on lasix. These include many having their first start in the TB's at least. Many trainers see it as not a level playing field if their horses aren't on lasix when others in the field are.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Triple V

Hey Lee, for the benefit of inquiring minds that would really like to know about such things, could you please list all the drugs that have, in your opinion, been inappropriately classified as therapeutics in the US/CAN?

Having listed them could you then please offer a reason or reasons as to why they are not in fact therapeutic substances?

I look forward to your reply.

VVV you really have taken things out of context here, you need to read/understand the whole quote, not just take a few words that you fancy out of it. The quote refers to all those therapeutic drugs classified as class four in the US, and the manner in which they are administered and regulated. Class four include muscle relaxants without CNS effects, NSAID's and corticosteroids.

Put simply what the quote means is you don't have to risk using a class 1 drug such as morphine (which would get you banned) when you can load them up with joint injections and bute with little fear of consequences if you get a "therapeutic overage" for these drugs.

It is a bigger picture then just listing names of drugs, but given you have repeatedly demonstrated that you cant see that Boldonone without a prescription is an illegal drug then perhaps this concept is also outside your grasp.

That's the way Dot, whenever you get pinned down on something and you have to Pony up some facts to back up your assertions, just move the goal posts. Gimme a break. What an absolute joke.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Triple V

That's the way Dot, whenever you get pinned down on something and you have to Pony up some facts to back up your assertions, just move the goal posts. Gimme a break. What an absolute joke.

Jaimie, it must be assumed then that you haven't read the article from whence the quote was obtained, otherwise you wouldn't dispute it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Triple V

That's the way Dot, whenever you get pinned down on something and you have to Pony up some facts to back up your assertions, just move the goal posts. Gimme a break. What an absolute joke.

VVV no doubt this will be beyond your comprehension

CLASS 4 This class includes therapeutic medications that would be expected to have less potential to affect performance then thosein CLASS 3. Drugs in this class include less potent diuretics, corticosteroids, antihitimines and skeletal muscle relaxants without prominent central nervous system effects; expectorants and mucolytics; hemostatics; cardiac glycosides and anti arrythmics; topical anestetics; anti diahiarreals and mild analgesics. This classification also includes non steroidal anti inflammatory drugs at concentrations greater then established limits.

Now VVV as you will no doubt have no idea what that means let me give you just one to sink your teeth into- Phenylbutozone, perhaps I should use the simple name though, give you half a chance to get it -BUTE

I don't know how to put it any simpler then I already have VVV, you do not have to risk a class one positive for morphine when you can go well over the therapeutic threshold allowed for bute and meerly get a slap on the wrist. VVV you keep the race and the prizemoney and in many instances pay nothing more then a fine of a few hundred dollars.

VVV you claim to have an enquiring mind, why don't you read the chemical horse article you may be surprised by what you learn