Why are stewards penalties so weak?

Quote:

Originally Posted by cyclone george

Penalties are not strong enough you reckon . You will not find a bigger anti drugs advocate then me, but under your system dean Braun gets 5 years for bute ,which has a cut of period of 5 days. Nsw vets and lab,deans vet all gave evidence that the levels found in it horse's system was administered at least 7 days before,but he still got 6 months ,under your system he gets 5 years. Just before everyone shoots me down here who hasn't had a horse that hasn't been treated with bute 7 days from a race.

G'day Greg,
I may only be a hobby trainer/driver /breeder/farrier/owner/idiot, but I have NEVER sent a horse to the races that needed bute inside two weeks before a race.
I personaly believe anyone using bute as a training tool is an absolute imbecile, but hey I'm only a hobby trainer, who has only had about a thousand starters over a period of almost 40 years, so I'm not your fully informed "chemist " type trainer.

I am a horseman first and foremost and anyone who thinks a horse that actually needed Bute inside a week from a race is not only pushing the rules, but is IMO, not really even trying to think about the overall welfare of the horse.

So to answer the question in the last sentence of your post....Me! and I will bet there are just as many like me as those who are not.

Cheers,
Dan

Quote:

Originally Posted by Danno

G'day Greg,
I may only be a hobby trainer/driver /breeder/farrier/owner/idiot, but I have NEVER sent a horse to the races that needed bute inside two weeks before a race.
I personaly believe anyone using bute as a training tool is an absolute imbecile, but hey I'm only a hobby trainer, who has only had about a thousand starters over a period of almost 40 years, so I'm not your fully informed "chemist " type trainer.

I am a horseman first and foremost and anyone who thinks a horse that actually needed Bute inside a week from a race is not only pushing the rules, but is IMO, not really even trying to think about the overall welfare of the horse.

So to answer the question in the last sentence of your post....Me! and I will bet there are just as many like me as those who are not.

Cheers,
Dan

And me as well Dan if the horse needs a pain killer he shouldn't be racing.

Here Jack is NSW penalty guidelines,

HRNSW PENALTY GUIDELINES HRNSW PENALTY GUIDELINES

V3 – 21.03.13 6
PENALTY GUIDELINES FOR THERAPEUTIC SUBSTANCES AND
TCO2 POSITIVES TCO2 POSITIVES

CLASS 1 CLASS 1

This category of drugs has the highest potential to affect performance and have no generally accepted medical use
in the racing horse.

It includes, but is not limited to, central nervous systems stimulants and depressants, narcotic analgesics, synthetic
EPO derivatives , including polyethylene glycolated – epoetin beta (PEG-EPO), ITPP, AICAR, snake venom, snail
venom, other animal venom and all substances specifically referred to in AHRR 190A (2) Out of Competition Testing
and any other substance not registered for use in equines and/or Humans.

The list below is some of those substances, but is not limited to:

• Anileridine
• Etorphine
• Dipipanone
• Endorphins
• Human erythropoietin, darbepoetin alpha
• Human insulin, bovine insulin and porcine/canine insulin
• Diacetylmorphine (heroin), cocaine, cannabinoids and lysergic acid diethylamine (LSD)
• Amphetamines including amphetamine, methylamphetamine
• Methylenedioxyamphetamine and methylenedioxyamphetamine

First offence

• No less than five (5) years disqualification

Second offence

• No less than (10) years disqualification

CLASS 2 CLASS 2

Drugs in this category have a high potential to affect performance but less of a potential than Class1.

They include but are not limited to psychotropic drugs, certain nervous system stimulants and depressants and
neuromuscular blocking agents.

Local anaesthetics are included in this class because of their high potential for abuse as nerve blocking agents.

It also includes but is not limited to:

• TCO2
• Anabolic steroids (including HPC)
• SARMs
• SERMs (eg Tamoxifen)

First offence

• No less than two (2) years disqualification

Second offence

• No less than five (5) years disqualification

Third offence

• No less than ten (10) years disqualification
HRNSW PENALTY GUIDELINES HRNSW PENALTY GUIDELINES

V3 – 21.03.13 7
CLASS 3 CLASS 3

This category includes those medications registered in Australia for veterinary use which have an accepted
therapeutic use in the racing horse.

Australian registered human preparations with an accepted therapeutic use in the racing horse may also be included
in this Class.

Includes all therapeutic substances.

First offence

• Twelve (12) months disqualification

Second offence

• Two (2) years disqualification

Third offence

• Five (5) years disqualification

Fourth offence

• Ten (10) years disqualification

Stewards may consider a reduction on compelling evidence that the person:

• Did not administer or caused to administer the prohibited substance
• Did not know or have reason to believe it was administered
• Taken all reasonable steps to ensure administered was not possible
• If a person makes an omission or pleads “guilty” to any offence

HRNSW PENALTY GUIDELINES HRNSW PENALTY GUIDELINES

V3 – 21.03.13 8
PENALTY GUIDELINES FOR DRIVING OFFENCES PENALTY GUIDELINES FOR DRIVING OFFENCES

Quote:

Originally Posted by Danno

G'day Greg,
I may only be a hobby trainer/driver /breeder/farrier/owner/idiot, but I have NEVER sent a horse to the races that needed bute inside two weeks before a race.
I personaly believe anyone using bute as a training tool is an absolute imbecile, but hey I'm only a hobby trainer, who has only had about a thousand starters over a period of almost 40 years, so I'm not your fully informed "chemist " type trainer.

I am a horseman first and foremost and anyone who thinks a horse that actually needed Bute inside a week from a race is not only pushing the rules, but is IMO, not really even trying to think about the overall welfare of the horse.

So to answer the question in the last sentence of your post....Me! and I will bet there are just as many like me as those who are not.

Cheers,
Dan

Dan,
Bute is used my many trainers as a recovery tool, it is totally acceptable to administer bute to a horse after a race if its going to race 7 days later.
It is recommended to use Bute 7 days out but you can use it 6 days out and be fine.
Some of these posts are completely stupid!
Trainers do not use bute as a performance enhancer its is used in horse management.
I find it extremely hard to believe that Dean used bute to gain an unfair advantage. If memory serves me correctly Magical Telf was a $1.30 favorite so why would he bute it up?
Obviously it was a husbandry mistake.
You state about the trainer not thinking about the overall welfare of the horse?
Thats the single most ridiculous thing ive ever heard and I suggest you stick to getting no winners as obviously you dont value a horses welfare if your against a trainer administering bute in an attempt to look after there horse.
Rant over.
Steve

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greg Hando

Here Jack is NSW penalty guidelines,

HRNSW PENALTY GUIDELINES HRNSW PENALTY GUIDELINES

V3 – 21.03.13 6
PENALTY GUIDELINES FOR THERAPEUTIC SUBSTANCES AND
TCO2 POSITIVES TCO2 POSITIVES

CLASS 1 CLASS 1

This category of drugs has the highest potential to affect performance and have no generally accepted medical use
in the racing horse.

It includes, but is not limited to, central nervous systems stimulants and depressants, narcotic analgesics, synthetic
EPO derivatives , including polyethylene glycolated – epoetin beta (PEG-EPO), ITPP, AICAR, snake venom, snail
venom, other animal venom and all substances specifically referred to in AHRR 190A (2) Out of Competition Testing
and any other substance not registered for use in equines and/or Humans.

The list below is some of those substances, but is not limited to:

• Anileridine
• Etorphine
• Dipipanone
• Endorphins
• Human erythropoietin, darbepoetin alpha
• Human insulin, bovine insulin and porcine/canine insulin
• Diacetylmorphine (heroin), cocaine, cannabinoids and lysergic acid diethylamine (LSD)
• Amphetamines including amphetamine, methylamphetamine
• Methylenedioxyamphetamine and methylenedioxyamphetamine

First offence

• No less than five (5) years disqualification

Second offence

• No less than (10) years disqualification

CLASS 2 CLASS 2

Drugs in this category have a high potential to affect performance but less of a potential than Class1.

They include but are not limited to psychotropic drugs, certain nervous system stimulants and depressants and
neuromuscular blocking agents.

Local anaesthetics are included in this class because of their high potential for abuse as nerve blocking agents.

It also includes but is not limited to:

• TCO2
• Anabolic steroids (including HPC)
• SARMs
• SERMs (eg Tamoxifen)

First offence

• No less than two (2) years disqualification

Second offence

• No less than five (5) years disqualification

Third offence

• No less than ten (10) years disqualification
HRNSW PENALTY GUIDELINES HRNSW PENALTY GUIDELINES

V3 – 21.03.13 7
CLASS 3 CLASS 3

This category includes those medications registered in Australia for veterinary use which have an accepted
therapeutic use in the racing horse.

Australian registered human preparations with an accepted therapeutic use in the racing horse may also be included
in this Class.

Includes all therapeutic substances.

First offence

• Twelve (12) months disqualification

Second offence

• Two (2) years disqualification

Third offence

• Five (5) years disqualification

Fourth offence

• Ten (10) years disqualification

Stewards may consider a reduction on compelling evidence that the person:

• Did not administer or caused to administer the prohibited substance
• Did not know or have reason to believe it was administered
• Taken all reasonable steps to ensure administered was not possible
• If a person makes an omission or pleads “guilty” to any offence

HRNSW PENALTY GUIDELINES HRNSW PENALTY GUIDELINES

V3 – 21.03.13 8
PENALTY GUIDELINES FOR DRIVING OFFENCES PENALTY GUIDELINES FOR DRIVING OFFENCES

Greg I fully support these rules, problem is they vary to much from state to state. And after reading these rules for some shocking reason even nsw stewards have chosen for reasons I can't believe to change them and go against them. Why? Under these rules both M Hardy and R Nicholson should have been given 5years staight forward no questions asked. Yet Hardy gets 30 months and Nicholson 3 Years. Given how dangerous Cobalt is said to be to a horse and the fact its acts like epo surely its a Class 1 drug no questions asked.

Also under these rules bute would class 3, 12 months staight up no room to move. People on here have said dean been given 6 months. Though I cant see any stewards reports saying this.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jackthepunter

Greg I fully support these rules, problem is they vary to much from state to state. And after reading these rules for some shocking reason even nsw stewards have chosen for reasons I can't believe to change them and go against them. Why? Under these rules both M Hardy and R Nicholson should have been given 5years staight forward no questions asked. Yet Hardy gets 30 months and Nicholson 3 Years. Given how dangerous Cobalt is said to be to a horse and the fact its acts like epo surely its a Class 1 drug no questions asked.

Also under these rules bute would class 3, 12 months staight up no room to move. People on here have said dean been given 6 months. Though I cant see any stewards reports saying this.

The get out clause down the bottom says they can get lessor penalty if:

• Did not administer or caused to administer the prohibited substance
• Did not know or have reason to believe it was administered
• Taken all reasonable steps to ensure administered was not possible
• If a person makes an omission or pleads “guilty” to any offence

Steve, if somone is not of the same opinion as you it is NOT a given that they are stupid.
Some people when they get a headache, make sure they are hydrated and get some fresh air or take a catnap etc. while there are some people who will pop some pills straight away. We humans also have varied opinions on how to manage pain in horses.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wilso

Dan,
Bute is used my many trainers as a recovery tool, it is totally acceptable to administer bute to a horse after a race if its going to race 7 days later.
It is recommended to use Bute 7 days out but you can use it 6 days out and be fine.
Some of these posts are completely stupid!
Trainers do not use bute as a performance enhancer its is used in horse management.
I find it extremely hard to believe that Dean used bute to gain an unfair advantage. If memory serves me correctly Magical Telf was a $1.30 favorite so why would he bute it up?
Obviously it was a husbandry mistake.
You state about the trainer not thinking about the overall welfare of the horse?
Thats the single most ridiculous thing ive ever heard and I suggest you stick to getting no winners as obviously you dont value a horses welfare if your against a trainer administering bute in an attempt to look after there horse.
Rant over.
Steve

Steve, everything you stated in this post is bullshit, you really have no idea if you think a "husbandry mistake" is OK. I don't believe the Bute was administered to gain an unfair advantage, but yes it was administered in order to get the horse to the races hey ?
Should the horse have been in the race if he needed bute to be there, my opinion is no, the rules, like them or not back that up.

That last sentence you sprayed makes no sense whatsoever and proves old mate it is yourself that has no idea, I did not say at any stage I was against administering Bute, I said inside 2 weeks before a race if a horse needs bute it shouldn't be at the races.

Go shove your head back in the hole it came from.

Lmfao!!!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Danno

Steve, everything you stated in this post is bullshit, you really have no idea if you think a "husbandry mistake" is OK. I don't believe the Bute was administered to gain an unfair advantage, but yes it was administered in order to get the horse to the races hey ?
Should the horse have been in the race if he needed bute to be there, my opinion is no, the rules, like them or not back that up.

That last sentence you sprayed makes no sense whatsoever and proves old mate it is yourself that has no idea, I did not say at any stage I was against administering Bute, I said inside 2 weeks before a race if a horse needs bute it shouldn't be at the races.

Go shove your head back in the hole it came from.

Stick to having no idea mate.
Someone that's trained 1 winner in the past god knows how long really shouldn't lecture others.
Your theory on bute is utter rubbish.
If a horse is given bute 7 days out it is completely within the rules.
Do you know what husbandry is?
No Dan it does not involve a man loving a woman very very much.
I suggest you look it up, then you will realize that Deans positive was in fact a husbandry error.
As for your last sentence, it must be such an ordinary feeling when someone proves you so very wrong you have to carry on like a circus freak. In which case excuse the pun but I will endeavor not to throw anymore pie in your face.
Steve