Do you think that arsenic is a therpeutic drug or a performance enhancer?
With all due respect robin, do you reckon you could answer my question?????????
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Do you think that arsenic is a therpeutic drug or a performance enhancer?
With all due respect robin, do you reckon you could answer my question?????????
I did Trooper.
Perhaps Macular Degeneration or Glaucoma has you in it's grip? Off to OPSM tomorrow?
Right up at the very top of my reply I said
QUOTE [In regard to therapeautic vs performance enhance...like Bute, I think it's both and like Bute, recent or past exposure can easily & very effectively be determined. ]
Fair cop, wasn't reading properly, forgot to put your commas in for you...I'll get my eyes checkedQuote:
Originally Posted by triplev123
I'm heading there next Tuesday.
Still in the field. res are out. so looks like hes running.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chariots
WA stewards announced a couple of minutes ago that Raglan will definitely be a starter in the WA Cup.
Swab negative to arsenic and all other conditions met so Hrnsw have lifted stand down allowing it to start in Pacing Cup
No doubt influenced by the HRNSW articles in today's media. One subject is bad enough, can't afford two.
Could open up a Pandora's Box maybe ?Quote:
Originally Posted by David Summers
Just saying.
This is one of those articles in the media earlier this morning http://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/spo...pends-on-swab/
Yet another press release in the past few minutes http://www.harnesslink.com/www/Article.cgi?ID=95075
Bill Muscat got 4 months for having Phenylbutazone and Oxyphenbutazone in Mystic Sunset at Menangle on 29 November 2011 what a surprise when it won hard held
Geeze Zipzap. That comment indicates that there's more depth to be had in a tea spoon than there is in your understanding of the pharmacology of Phenylbutazone.
To suggest that the horse won hard held as a result of trace amounts of a NSAID in it's system, one that doesn't work at all beyond 12hrs post administration but nevertheless, under the present system/testing regime can and does produce trainer answerable positives out beyond 132hrs post administration...is just plain wrong.
So you think or are suggesting made no difference then why are they banned.It seems to me that you think that open slather is the go .The people i talk to and respect just want a level playing field with all horses winning on ability not with help from drugs .Quote:
Originally Posted by triplev123
Christ. Here we go again.
Brian, I AM NOT suggesting open slather. Never have, never will.
What I AM suggesting however is that we put in place thresholds for sustances such as Bute... ala TCO2's etc. ....in order to prevent the honest Trainers being unfairly charged and suspended/fined as a result of trace amounts of non pharmacologically active therapeutic substances being detected in a swab subject to an overtly sensitive test that has a black and white...yes it is present or no it is not present...outcome.
Although, as always, a quantifying of the level detected has once again been conveniently overlooked, I would be prepared to bet both my left & right cajones that the amount in the abovementioned swab was below that at which it would be having any anti-inflamatory effect on the horse whatsoever.
Have you ever used it to take away discomfort from a horse...with a sore foot for example.
The stuff craps itself and stops working after 12hrs. From 24- 48 -96-132 hrs out and no way known that it's working BUT if that horse happens to be a racehorse then currently a Trainer can still score a positive for it.
Do you think that's fair? I don't.
Worse still is that the testing protocol is there to enable the time of administration to be easily pinpointed. In the US they can tell the difference between Bute at 24 and 48 and 96 hrs post administration. Why can't we do so here?
All i know if it tested positive the trainer is guilty of using a prohibited drug and he got suspended for 4 months.Yet you are saying unfair they all know the rule if they race a horse with it in its system they will test positive and be suspended.
I see Real Life has just been scratched from the Cup cut his back leg in a float mishap.
I dont know what line of work VVV is in but he seems to knock people down with any post i have noticed that is about a banned drug.Quote:
Originally Posted by barney
As far as Harness Racing is concerned my 'line of work' is one of trying to introduce a little common sense and pragmatism to the debate...instead of the usual reactionary, ill-informed and in most cases just plane wrong statements and accusations that have been levelled far too many times on this and other Forums whenever this particular subject comes up. Look deep within yourself for I've no doubt that you too are capable of rational thought.
Its banned drug that helps a horse with soreness you dont have a case full stop
[VVV] Thankfully at a National and International level, not everyone wishes to similarly bury their head in the sand Zipzap.Quote:
Originally Posted by zipzap
A re-think of the whole approach to therapeautics is already in the wings. It is going to happen. Not tomorrow, not next month and maybe not next year but be well assured that it will come to pass.
As I've asked previously when this very subject raised its head, isn't it better...doesn't it make more sense to be part of the process by which those changes are made and different rules are adopted...than it is to scream about the outcome after all is said and done?
Attached is an excerpt from an article referred to me by my niece.
She is an equine veterinary surgeon based in Kentucky USA.
I find the list Table 1 in the article interesting as it is a whose who of drugs returning more than 95% of positives in Austalasian racing jurisdictions. As you can see we are very much behind the 8 ball with developing thresholds for these drugs.
Equine Drugs, Medications, and Performance Altering Substances: Their Performance Effects, Detection, and Regulation
http://thomastobin.com/drugsmeds/001-cavehorse.jpg
Dr. Thomas Tobin, Dr. Julio Gutierrez, Emily Schwartz,
Dr. Fernanda Camargo, and Charlie Hughes
Equine Pharmacology, Therapeutics and Toxicology Laboratory
The Maxwell H. Gluck Equine Research Center
University of Kentucky
Lexington, KY 40546-0099
Dr. Rodney Eisenberghttp://thomastobin.com/drugsmeds/001-chinesecart.jpg
Frontier Biopharm
6013 Atwood Drive, Suite 300
Richmond, KY 40475
e-mail: rod@frontierbiopharm.com
Dr.Andreas Lehner
Diagnostic Center for Population and Animal Health
College of Veterinary Medicine
Michigan State University
4125 Beaumont Road
Lansing, MI 48910
Mr. Kent Stirling
Florida Horsemen’s Benevolent and Protective Association
P.O Box 1808
Opa Loca, FL 33055-0808
Based on a presentation to the Equine Law section
of the Kentucky Bar Association at Keeneland,
Lexington, Kentucky, Oct 21, 2005
(webpage updated Dec 2010)
Table of Contents
1 Summary
2 Background and Definitions
3 History
4 Can Drugs or Medications Influence the Outcome of a Race?
5 The Introduction of ELISA Testing (1988)
6 Mass Spectral Confirmation
7 Liquid Chromatography/Mass Spectrometry/Mass Spectrometry
(LC/MS/MS)
8 "Zero Tolerance" Testing
9 Numbers of Medication Molecules: Medication Dosing and Elimination
10 Thresholds, Including "No Effect Thresholds" (NETs)
11 Withdrawal Time Guidelines
12 Reference Standards
13 Medication Rules
14 The Current Racing Medication Testing Consortium (RMTC) &
Association of Racing Commissioners International (ARCI) Rule
15 Further Reading
16 Appendices
1. Summary
Thoroughbred Racing has been testing for drugs and medications since about 1903. Today, racehorse testing is by far the longest established, broadest in scope and most sensitive drug testing performed on earth. Racehorse testing is also performed within an extremely stringent regulatory context, and my understanding is that many of our constitutional protections as US citizens are inoperative in the racing environment. Racehorse testing is also remarkably “clean,” as the incidence of deliberate use of performance affecting substances seems to be very small.
There are good reasons for all of the above. It is empirically clear that medications are highly likely to influence the performance of racing horses, although the scientific evidence for actual improved performance is much less than overwhelming.
In the mid-nineteen eighties, however, the use of high potency drugs with clear potential to affect performance was not particularly well controlled. Following a directive from the Kentucky State Racing Commission, an interdisciplinary team at the University of Kentucky worked on adapting ELISA testing to racing chemistry; this proprietary technology was at that time a major step towards solving the problem of the abuse of high potency drugs in racing horses, and these tests are now marketed worldwide out of Lexington (www.neogen.com/forensickits.htm)
One of the lessons that came out of ELISA testing is that advances in drug detection/testing are research driven. Once a medication is “called positive”, that is the first “positive” is called and prosecuted, the rate of use of the substance drops dramatically, to close to zero, but not quite zero; it appears that there are always people ready to try a medication that worked for them, or for a colleague, or a rival, in the past.
Overall, the rate at which performance altering medication violations are reported in racing is extremely small. For example, from 1995–1999 there were about 3 positives for every 100,000 samples for Association of Racing Commissioners International [ARCI] Class 1 violations after trace level identifications of dietary and environmental substances are eliminated. By far, the most common identifications reported in racing are residual “traces” of well recognized and widely used therapeutic medications, so called “tail-ends” of therapeutic medications , and traces of dietary and environmental substances that also happen to be ARCI substances, for example trace level identifications of caffeine and other substances widely used by humans.
The ease with which such “traces” of therapeutic medications, dietary and environmental substances can be detected using current testing technology has now clearly led scientists and regulators away from the old “zero tolerance” approach, which many authorities now see as outdated, to defined regulatory limits or “thresholds” for therapeutic medications, endogenous, dietary and environmental substances.
This situation was driven in large part by ELISA testing, which allows highly sensitive detection of trace amounts (tail ends) of therapeutic medications, environmental and dietary substances. In the nineteen nineties, following another Kentucky Racing Commission directive, the University of Kentucky program at The Maxwell H. Gluck Equine Research Center pioneered the basic research that underpins the evolving and now in principle very well established concept concerning the use of regulatory “thresholds” in racing regulation.
More recent challenges include developing effective regulatory methods for the newer recombinant hormonal products such as the various human recombinant erythropoietin products and variants thereof and growth hormones. More recently, a high quality ELISA test has been made available for human recombinant erythropoietin and racing chemistry has scored a major scientific breakthrough by developing the first mass spectral confirmation method to detect use of recombinant human erythropoietin (rhEPO) in horses or, indeed, in any species.
2. Background and Definitions
There are at least 30 million known chemical substances and 4,000 or more prescription medications. Racing regulators in the United States , therefore, divide drugs and medications into two major groups:
The largest group of concern to regulators is the "performance-enhancing substances", whose identification in a horse is viewed with great regulatory concern. Testing for these substances usually proceeds at the highest level of sensitivity possible; so-called "zero-tolerance" testing. About 900 or so substances are classified by the Association of Racing Commissioners International (ARCI) Uniform Classification System for Foreign Substances as potentially performance enhancing in a five class system, the most complete listing of such substances available anywhere in the world (http://www.arci.com/druglisting.pdf).
The second and smaller group comprises the "therapeutic medications", recognized by the American Association of Equine Practitioners [AAEP] and the Racing Medication and Testing Consortium [RMTC]. There are approximately 50 plus of these medications used therapeutically in horses in training (Table 1). Since about the year 2000, it has come to be much more generally accepted that we must set “limitations” on the sensitivity of testing for therapeutic medications. These limitations are variously called thresholds or reporting levels, or decision levels ( California ) apparently depending on the semantic preference of the individual jurisdiction.
Table 1. Therapeutic Medications Routinely Used and Identified as Necessary by the Veterinary Advisory Committee — (Racing Medication and Testing Consortium [RMTC] draft list of therapeutic medications, 2005)
1. Acepromazine17. Dipyrone 33. Omeprazole 2. Albuterol18. Flunixin 34. Pentoxifylline3. Aminocaproic Acid19. Fluprednisolone35. Phenylbutazone4. Atropine20. Fluphenazine36. Phenytoin5. Beclomethasone21. Furosemide37. Prednisolone6. Betamethasone22. Glycopyrrolate 38. Prednisone7. Boldenone23. Guaifenesin39. Procaine Penicillin8. Butorphanol 24. Hydroxyzine40. Pyrilamine9. Cimetidine25. Isoflupredone41. Ranitidine10. Clenbuterol26. Isoxsuprine42. Reserpine11. Cromolyn27. Ketoprofen43. Stanozolol12. Dantrolene28. Lidocaine 44. Testosterone13. Detomidine 29. Mepivacaine 45. Triamcinolone14. Dexamethasone30. Methocarbamol 46. Trichlomethiazide15. Diazepam31. Methylprednisolone16. DMSO32. Nandrolone
The full article is available at.....
http://thomastobin.com/drugsmeds/drugsmeds.htm
Cheers Tony, plenty of interesting reading there. Most appreciated.
Jaimie
Yes but this is not America(thank god i was born here in the lucky country) so until the rules are changed people cant bitch when they hear of a banning for its use.
G,day Tony was wondering what the number after each substance was is it day's,hour's or something else ?
Don't matter just found it .
I particularly pricked my ear's when i read this :
And as an aside, where the metabolized drug goes after urination can be a matter of some regulatory significance. If the dose of drug administration to horses large, and the drug/metabolite is excreted at high concentrations in the horse's urine, the horse will contaminate his stall environment. It has been shown that a "clean" horse put into the environmentally contaminated stall can immediately go "positive" for the medication in question, creating an interesting regulatory circumstance, and demonstrating another compelling argument in favor of regulatory thresholds for therapeutic medications.
Thats right Greg . A horse can actually absorb DMSO , excreted through urine , through its feet or body if it lies down . It is very possible that Smoken Up was a victim of circumstance .
Yes maybe