Quote:
Originally Posted by clumsy
Start a new thread clumsy and let us know what went on as not all were or are able to attend these meeting's.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by clumsy
Start a new thread clumsy and let us know what went on as not all were or are able to attend these meeting's.
Sorry Greg this should have been in the "Long overdue " thread. Most of the information is already in this thread.Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg Hando
Could we leave unbiased political discourse to Bolt,Jones,Ackerman etc?Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple V
Fair enough. Lucky that I didn't mention Craig Thompson, Michael Williamson or Peter Slipper huh? :rolleyes:
This is a Harness Racing forum,is it not?If you want a barrow to push,go to Bunnings.Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple V
I was wondering how a thread on a new track at Eastern Creek and the amalgamation of three clubs turned into a bagging session on the Labor party and people that live in Sydney's inner west. Fair dinkum, some people must get ignored at home and need somewhere to vent.
[VVV] Yesterday Dot mentioned a 2nd Airport going in at Wilton and the reasons why that wouldn't happen went from there. So Ron, Glen, do you think Bankstown & Penrith should be amalgamated...or not? You've got plenty to say about me giving Alba & the crew a pay. What about the actual thread? From what I can see, not a peep there from either of you yet. Bankstown & Penrith to Eastern Creek or not? What say you?Quote:
Originally Posted by G-Mac
WTF... I had to google that coffee moniker thingo you were going by, to see what that was all about and now HSU delegate! God you are a stirring bastard:D
Its been a good topic to follow and most have voiced wide and varying opinions, get back to the topic guys.
My fault, I admit. I hate the bastards and sometimes it just gets the better of me.
Apologies to one and all.
So Brad, if someone handed you a magic wand and you got a free wave...what would you do to produce a satisfactory resolution to this situation (re: Penrith/Bankstown etc) ?
If I had something worthwhile to say on the topic I would have said something by now VVV. I am a bit on the Flat Earths side and probably live in a bit of a time warp. I love tradition in racing, you know, wept a tear when the curtain came down at HP. I also love the small tracks. It creates exciting racing that you can get right up close to, close enough to taste the dust and smell the sweat. That big Menangle track is essential for top class horses to show their wares but they are so, so far away. Surely there is a place for a smaller circuit in the greater metropolitan area. I don't think Penrith has done anything wrong to this point and is well supported by a bunch of trainers.
I haven't answered your question and I can't. I know you can't stop progress and I wouldn't want to. There are plenty more people with more foresight out there with local knowledge and can picture where harness racing will be in 20 yrs time. Prefer to see them taking smaller steps with no risk taking because we are talking about peoples livlihoods here.
You know something Brad, and this is just a gut feeling I've had zero confirmation of, I suspect there is a significant element of rationalisation across the board in the future planning of The Board. Although it is not being directly aimed at them right now I think it includes some current participants. If I'm reading the Tea Leaves correctly they would much rather a somewhat smaller Industry in terms of individual participants and with that an Industry that has fewer but much larger stables & one that races more often at fewer venues with horses being drawn from those stables. That will certainly be true of the Metro area anyway. Rightly or wrongly, I reckon that's where we are ultimately heading. If it is the case then with it there'll be a need for very significant and widespread investment in NSW Country racing so as to keep the horses flowing to the Metro area racing venue/s.
I don't know the boards plans but how do you think that fewer stables resulting in multiple representation in races would boost punter confidence in the industry? Isn't turnover paramount to the future?
Perhaps Jamie instead of reading tea leaves its time to open a new thread and people can put forward their own ideas on the direction the industry should go in.
Triple, don't you think your a bit like your mate "Albo" spruiking the credentials of a track at Eastern Creek, it's like the debate over the Airport being located at Badgery's Creek,Wilton or Williamstown. What we have uncovered is that the "powers to be" need to release a blueprint for the future of harness racing. If it is like the airport debate, then Bankstown and Penrith should both stay, and need to be supported! This is prime real estate, and both are easily accessible!
Harold Parker had some great input on here and his vision of the ID format I thought was excellent, but his vision of a band of X amount of large stables and a professional pool of metrop drivers left a bad taste in my mouth. I have said before that economic rationalism isn't the be all/end all, sometimes you have to put the people first. Initiative and good solid planning to strengthen and protect the industry and its participants is what is needed right now, not grandiose visions of a replicated USA style of harness racing. There is no soul in it.
If I was in the hotseat (and I am glad not to be), I would be sorting out the smaller issues that are holding us back right now (eg corruption, swabbing, poor staffing of stewards, better gradings for more even fields, promotion of the breeding industry, SOME type of promotion that can reach new fans etc). Just because you just found a stack of money under a rock, doesn't mean you have to blow it on stuff we don't need. We ain't never gonna be the thoroughbreds, but we can cerainly project a much better image of ourselves than the one for which we are treated with disdain by the punting public as we are now.
Why don't we get Gai Waterhouse to train a few horses for the Number One Club???
I like the idea of having a half mile track somewhere in the metro area, just for variety of racing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple V
As for the amalgamation of clubs I am unsure. I'm a minor participant in the industry being just a punter and owning a very small portion of a filly, so I am happy to read the opinions and views of those more heavily involved (at the coal face if you will) and learn a bit. Which is why I get frustrated having to wade through the tripe that belongs elsewhere.
I may form an opinion at some point but until then I don't believe I can add anything to the debate, so I have sat on the sideline.
One doesn't need to be Einstein to work out where you get you're info Jamie, I was talking to him some time ago and he mentioned how successful the Qld HR scene was integrated as it is into a small number of clubs with a similar reduced number of trainers...SUCCESSFUL????? bit of news Jamie, the answers to harness racing's woes are not copying the disaster in Qld, if you want to choke a business slowly to death... then follow their example! as i've said before..we should learn from old lessons and complement that with fresh thinking. The QLd thing is a bloody disaster, no other way of accurately describing it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple V
cheers,
Dan
Apart from the fears of rigging...a small crop of horses eg Tasmania, SA, Dubai inflates punter confidence through the ease of reading line form.Quote:
Originally Posted by dizzy
At the Wagga HRNSW forum Sam left us in no doubt that the board is extending the number of clubs that run TAB meetings, sure they may be taking these meetings from clubs already running TAB meetings but it ensures that these small clubs stay alive. This year in the Riverina West Wyalong held its first TAB meeting, Cootamundra and Griffith have also been allocated a meeting. It has been 5 years since Griffith have raced.
Do not ascribe to me motives or statements that I have not put forward or made.You are the one who breaks under pressure on the turn and goes off course.Your political opinions may be of great importance to yourself but mean diddly squat to me,and I suspect to others as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple V
To the subject of the thread,I come from an era when Wayville (home track) and Melbourne Showgrounds were the go.Wayville was very central to most of Adelaide's population by public transport,cars were the exception rather than the rule in those days.The racing was tight,exciting and also very frustrating because if you weren't in the first four around the home turn you were r**sh**t.May I digress for a minute,if you think we have some suss races now,how about a horse who won an Interdom getting beaten in a Free for All (long odds on) one week and then comes out the following week and is backed from 7/2 to 4/6 from 60 yds in a fast class handicap and brains them.Crowd goes absolutely berserk and the driver simply doffs his hat to the crowd.Boos and hisses turn to bottles, rubbish and anything at hand being thrown at driver.Stewards enquiry,Ha Ha.
To the subject.Harness racing in Adelaide goes from Wayville to Globe Derby.(Question,was the land at Globe owned by an interested party?) New track touted as the best thing to happen to the trotting game since Jesus played centre half back for Sturt.Anything sounding familiar.What are the South Australians racing for?,$1500 in some cases and they cannot afford to run an Inter.No forward planning,nothing done in the way of marketing,country clubs gutted,grass roots ignored,game stuffed.Wonder if the catering company is making any money?
To Vic.The showgrounds always had a crowd and it was helped by the catering company,Denisses I think, running a programme of bringing in works social clubs (remember them) as a great night out.It was great racing and always exciting.I never went to Mooney Valley but have been to Melton,once,never again.If I want filthy cutlery,glassware and a completely uninterested staff I will dine at home.How visitor unfriendly is that place?
H.P. v Menangle?Loved H.P. but understand the reason for selling.Menangle has been built,committee takes a bow,great opening,committee takes a bow,great track,committee takes a bow,great times,committee takes a bow,s**t h***e racing,committee cares less,non-existent crowds,committee cares less,members get no benefits for membership,committee cares less,marketing is non existent (see last major meeting),committee cares less.I have been involved one way or another for 60 years,I could care less.
To Penrith v Eastern Creek.This is a typical public servant attitude to "doing something".Take a club that is well placed,well run, well patronised and by almost any set of KPI's gets an A mark.Close that club down and start a brand new one somewhere.No feasability study,no plan,no real reason,no marketing plan.
Now I may be totally out of order here but I do not see where there is a plan, any plan that encompasses the industry as a whole.
I offer an apology for rambling a bit here as I can only see three lines at a time and cannot judge continuity,never mind,Collingwood are two goals behind and look like rabble.He,He.
You are absolutely right on the money. As we move further away from the centres of population we divorce ourselves from attracting new patron. Globe Derby Park has waited 30 years for the Suburbs to reach it. What's left, run down infrastructure that if they attracted a crowd the top floor no longer functions. A non existent breeding industry, 2046 mares bred in the early 80's down to 33 by 2012. Country clubs that struggle from one season to the next for finances with less and less assistance from the board. SA TAB sold for 38 million under the Olsen Govt it generated 42 million in yearly profits and the 3 codes in South Australia did not have the foresight to purchase there own racing product back rather they sat back and took a Govt hand out for the sale. Five years of good times then it was gone. Big Hint here use the procedes from the Sale of HP to invest in wealth generation purchase shares in the NSW TAB. Forget about developing courses away from the populous as each time you do the infrastructure will be gutted by the time the Burb's arrive. So the call from all the whiz Kidz will be sell to the developer. My prediction no industry in South Australia with in 15 years probably sooner because of decisions' made in the past and poor marketing of the product. There's always the training track at Gawler and that may well be the principal club in SA and back racing there one day.
[VVV] Just throttle back a piece there if you can Dan.Quote:
Originally Posted by Danno
Firstly, where I get my information from???? It's called keeping your eyes and ears open. It's not that hard to work out the way the wind is blowing. Further to the above, did I say anywhere there or anywhere previously..ever...that I agreed with it?
Personally I'd rather see dozens more Trainers & Drivers added to the roster by way of small numbers Trainers being able to take a couple boxes & stable & train their horses on-course at the big venues instead of people having to pony up the big $$$ it takes to set up their own complexes within striking distance of the proposed regional centres.
Further to that I have very significant concerns that the original spirit/intentions of the proposed on-course stabling will be somehow lost in the wash & I expressed exactly that view in either this or another thread here on this forum. It bothers me that there is not some sort of a waiting list or similar, it bothers me that if there is one then it is not freely available. It just bothers me point blank. Maybe I'm being cynical but I do sincerely think the fix is in on this one. I think the smaller operations will not get a look in...and that's wrong.
For mine Participants really need to be on their toes to make sure that this DOESN'T happen because I am sure that is the (if only for the sake of expedience perhaps? ) intention of a great many of our Industry decision makers.
I do think we need to rationalise tracks here in Sydney but with that should not come a similar rationalisation of participants. Somehow there are those in administration who inexplicably think that the two go inextricably hand in hand. I for one do not agree. If the on-course boxes thing goes South and the one and two horse trainers who want in on them instead get shut out in favour of large local and interstate/NZ stables then NSW participants should scream the house down because that is and right from the very get go it never was the intention. No need to shoot the messenger. If you'd rather not be aware of the way they're going to run it and instead scream long and loud when it's all over bar the shouting then be my guest. If otherwise, then put the pressure on the powers that be now and club it to death before it gets wings and flies.
[VVV] Geeze, dare I say that at one time, Bill Shorten worked for Collingwood? :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by 2minuteman
I remember someone in Vic telling me that Melton had plans for a stabling complex, but all interested parties lost interest when told a commercial return was planned.
That was $300 per horse per month
That doesn't surprise me p plater. It would actually be quite cheap if you where racing and earning at Melton every week, not so if you wern't though.Quote:
Originally Posted by p plater
I'm sure you'll correct me if I'm wrong Jamie but the way I heard it Menangle intends to let their barns out in stable blocks of twenty. If you only want a couple of stables you'll have to sublet from other trainers.
This is apropos of what exactly?Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple V
So is the solution to all of this as simple as the following:
1. HRNSW work with Penrith Club and state government to upgrade some facilities such as tie up stalls and track surface to make it the premier half mile track in NSW. Program in 8-12 metro meetings per year + continue with current schedule of 1 mid week night meeting per week. maybe some of the metro meetings could be on Sunday afternoon to draw in families etc. who wouldn't go on a week night. (medium cost, hopefully supported by govt funding)
2. Demolish Bankstown and find a way to put a 1000m track on the same site with new facilities or sell Bankstown and relocate to some where else in a suitable metro location and build a 1000m track. Give this venue 8-12 metro meetings per year as well and have a consistent mid week night program like Penrith. I would think it makes sense to re-develop Bankstown, given there is an established network of trainers there and it's a reasonably accessible location. (high cost, but could be achieved through various ways if the right people manage it)
3. Continue to develop Menangle as the states leading metropolitan harness racing venue and expand the facilities to develop the venue as an entertainment complex also (whether it be functions or other types of entertainment can be worked out). Make sure Newcastle also receives ongoing support to keep its facilities and track to a high standard. (NSWHRC has plenty so no issue with funding here, not sure of newcastles financial position but wouldn't expect this require huge investment as track is in pretty good shape already)
4. Work closely with the country clubs to develop a really strong country cups program that ties in well with local events in that community (i.e. Tamworth Cup around CMF time etc). This is a great way recruit new participants in regional areas and inject great theatre and awareness into regional areas that have existing harness communities. ( low cost)
5. HRNSW develop a well credentialed marketing team that is responsible for marketing on behalf of all tracks. Each of the tracks contribute to a promotional fund based on the number of feature meetings etc. they have and the scale of the meetings (Menangle would obviously contribute the most and so on from there). With this model you get economic rationalisation and improved expertise in a critical area. Economic rationalisation has to happen, better it happen in support areas rather than to the industry participants themselves. (should actually generate cost savings which can be redistributed back into greater marketing spend)
6. HRA to chair a consultative committee of representatives from each state to develop a feature race calendar that maximises the opportunity for Australian Harness racing to deliver a product that has the best horses racing in the most competitive feature races that draws great crowds and increased wagering revenue. To ensure that we don't have clashing of 2yo and 3yo features races in different states at the same time. (minimal cost)
I make no apology for the simplicity of my solution, it can be that easy if people put aside their personal motivations and focus on the greater good of harness racing to get stuff done. If I have learnt one thing in my life it's that society does a great job of letting complication, duplication and political interruption get in the way of simply good, well executed solutions.
Action drives evolution and evolution is what we need.
Mitch,
not sure I agree with all of those points and some are supposedly in place, but it's most definitely the type of thinking we need.
Action drives evolution and evolution is what we need. Love that tag Mitch, I'm certain your post will create plenty of discussion!!!
Dan,
I don't agree with all of them either but that's point I am trying to make. We are never going to get total agreement but sometimes I think people procrastinate in search of agreement instead of doing stuff to make things happen.
Hi Mitch
I'm not sure if they can sell Bankstown and relocate because i don't think the Bankstown H.R.C own's the land ( i could be wrong) and if they only want one other track in Sydney beside's Menangle i'd be leaning towards your idea of doing what they can to extend Penrith's track and fixing up there facilities.
I am sure Sam mentioned that two million is to be spent on stabling and facilities at Penrith, no mention was made of the track.Quote:
Originally Posted by mango
[VVV] Ain't that the truth. Testify Brother Mitch!Quote:
Originally Posted by Mitch
Re: (6) Couldn't agree more. In fact I'd like to see them take it even further and develop a Grand Circuit of sorts for both 2yos & 3yos. That would really be something.
2 and 3yo races have too many state/sire restricted races to make a grand circuit function with the best horses available each race. Also with the derbies/oaks, I don't think you gain much by putting a title of Grand Circuit champion on it, 6 time Derby winner is just as impressive by any other name.
A grand circuit for 4yos however....
Well that saves me a lot of time and effort.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mitch
A+ for clarity,thought and presentation.Many points for discussion and further thought.
One major problem however.Too much of what is put forward would (will)be seen by incumbent office holders as an attack on their abilities and performance,and therefore it will be,ignored,belittled and held to ridicule.
Can we see comments like this leading to further discussion/s,forward planning and action?
I thought so.......
[VVV] Quite true unfortunately. Either that or such ideas are sidelined for a period of time which is just long enough for the majority of people to forget who it was that had initially come up with them, then...when the coast is clear they are dragged out, dusted off & re-badged as having been the intelectual property of the abovementioned incumbents. :(Quote:
Originally Posted by 2minuteman
If I had scored just a single $1.00 for every time I've seen someone at an Industry meeting or an Internet Forum/Discussion Group or similar come up with a good idea which another or others from within the ranks of administration are ultimately awarded bouquets then I'd be typing this from my house in Monaco, next door to Mick Doohan.
Correct Mango the Bankstown club does not own the site but lease it from the council. There are no oncourse stables at Bankstown with all stabling located on private property in residential streets adjacent to the track. In the 12 years I have been there has been an increasing numbers of these properties either redeveloped or sold. Next to none of the purchasers have any interest in harness racing and as many have been muslim, their religion forbids gambling.Quote:
Originally Posted by mango
The whole Bankstown area is very popular with the muslim community and their numbers are steadily increasing as is their representation on council. It's my view that (sadly) the Bankstown club with the change in demographics of the area will die a natural death in the not too distant future. I see no need to artificially enhance its demise.
My view is their is room in this countries largest city for 3 differing tracks if Penrith wish to remain autonomous. The challenge would be to foster the cooperation and funding required to achieve it
Jamie I don't care who comes up with the good ideas or who obtains the bouquets for them so long as good ideas are implemented!
Ron,Quote:
Originally Posted by 2minuteman
Of course they will... Most (not all) of the incumbent are incompetent or limited at best, hence the reason the industry is in the position it is today. Anyway let's not harp on the negatives that ain't going to fix anything.
Dot,
Then if that's the case with the land being leased and the changing community demography, I think HRNSW and the Bankstown board has to find a way to relocate the club to new premises otherwise the slow death will continue at the detriment of the broader NSW Industry. This will require significant investment and may potentially not happen straight away. Rationalizing back to 2 tracks in metro Sydney may not be a bad thing in the short term whilst the industry rebuilds.
Not sure I agree with you there Mitch. Obviously the improvements cant be relocated. There is nothing fundamentally wrong with the dining area or lounge area in the grandstand but as Jamie pointed out there is room for improvement in the external facilities and of course consumables such as salt, pepper and napkins can be purchased. Track maintance could also be improved but the track is servicable -despite the lack of a water truck half the night Washakie didn't go too bad in the Treur.
On those nights we can utilise the grandstand facilites to advantage still but who wants to go to a sit down meal at any track on a monday afternoon. If Bankstown folds then obviously their dates will be transferred elsewhere , but unless it can be proven that those dates would generate more turnover elsewhere already what would be gained by moving them whilst Bankstown is still going.
Don't get me wrong I don't think that Bankstown is the future of harness racing in Sydney but with a bit of a makeover and support there would still be a few dances left in the old girl.
I suppose that's something they would have to way up, would a makeover be worth seeing a few more dances or would the money be better off being spent where they will be dancing for a long time to come.