Total removal of 2yo racing for the benefit of the industry

Quote:

Originally Posted by Triple V

Congrats Dan. A result's a result's a result...price be damned.
I can clearly remember that mare's damsire racing, Typhoon Lobell.
He was by a son of Nero named Lucius Lobell. Years later his (Lucius Lobell's) maternal line produced no less than Somebeachsomewhere. Typhoon Lobell was very smart, a bit ironic in terms of this thread title in that he was a very good 2yo. A bloke by the name of Adams used to drive him. End Trivia.

A good 2yo who did not race past 4yo :)
That family U118 sure did produce Somebeachsomewhere from left left field (maybe Cam Terrific provided the hint)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Triple V

Congrats Dan. A result's a result's a result...price be damned.
I can clearly remember that mare's damsire racing, Typhoon Lobell.
He was by a son of Nero named Lucius Lobell. Years later his (Lucius Lobell's) maternal line produced no less than Somebeachsomewhere. Typhoon Lobell was very smart, a bit ironic in terms of this thread title in that he was a very good 2yo. A bloke by the name of Adams used to drive him. End Trivia.

Jaimie, Off topic here but how are the Gelato sessions with Dot down at Norton St going?

I have no issue with racing 2yo's.

As many others have already suggested it's certainly not for every horse. Some are at their best at 2, while many others improve as they get older.

I think it's quite easy to explain why champion 2yo's often don't go on and perform later in their careers. Quite simply, they are early maturing horses and they are at their best at 2yo. Just like a late maturing horse might peak at 6, 7 or even older.

What I think can be improved with juvenile racing is the crazy prize money on offer in the futurities. Whilst futurity series are all self funding via the 'sustaining' fee process I would much prefer to see the APG (now only a 2yo series), Breeders Crown, Breeders Challenge etc have an even spread of prize money across all age groups and like the Jewels in NZ be extended 5yo's as well. The lure of such big prize money forces owners and trainers to make short term decisions which are not in the best interests of horses at times.
If the breeders crown for example was of $150k for 2yo's, 3yo's, 4yo's & 5yo's you would still get the best juvenile horses compete.

It will never be removed and nor should it.

Quote:

What I think can be improved with juvenile racing is the crazy prize money on offer in the futurities. Whilst futurity series are all self funding via the 'sustaining' fee process I would much prefer to see the APG (now only a 2yo series), Breeders Crown, Breeders Challenge etc have an even spread of prize money across all age groups and like the Jewels in NZ be extended 5yo's as well. The lure of such big prize money forces owners and trainers to make short term decisions which are not in the best interests of horses at times.
If the breeders crown for example was of $150k for 2yo's, 3yo's, 4yo's & 5yo's you would still get the best juvenile horses compete.

Spot On Mitch,
I only used the word "ban" in order to get people talking because things have been a bit quiet lately,IMO the big end of town prizemoney can itself lead to some/many young horses being pushed too far too many times because of the temptation, training 2YO's is a balancing act that not everyone gets right all the time and who pays the price when it goes wrong? the horse and the owner.

Thanks for the goodwill messages guys, that mare was never going to be a 2yo as she had a development issue as a baby and I never broke her in til she was a late 2YO, then she cut her tendon almost in half in the paddock 3 years ago when I was about to take her to the trials to qualify, getting her to the races was a good thing in itself but today brought a lump to my throat, her mother was an orphan and didn't race at all due to an injury in the paddock just after I broke her in and her grand dam looked like being a nice mare but stuffed her shoulder in the stable....it's been a long time coming that little R0 at Tamworth...

Cheers guys,
I think the debate is showing many people believe that the level of prizemoney for the major 2 yo races is out of step with what the game needs, which is pretty much my opinion, I've raced a couple of 2yo's myself and one of them won a country classic "Sapling Stakes", but yeah he was really an early comer, not many are and therein lies the problem when there is big money tempting people.

Cheers,
Dan

Quote:

Originally Posted by Danno

Thanks for the goodwill messages guys, that mare was never going to be a 2yo as she had a development issue as a baby and I never broke her in til she was a late 2YO, then she cut her tendon almost in half in the paddock 3 years ago when I was about to take her to the trials to qualify, getting her to the races was a good thing in itself but today brought a lump to my throat, her mother was an orphan and didn't race at all due to an injury in the paddock just after I broke her in and her grand dam looked like being a nice mare but stuffed her shoulder in the stable....it's been a long time coming that little R0 at Tamworth...

Many congratulations Dan !!!
Cheeers
Luke and Paul

Congrats on the win Dan, even sweeter when you know the background :)

Great story Dan. Congratulations.

Great story Dan...congrats mate

Well done Dan. I assume you will be sipping Pino coladas in the Bahamas next week!!

Thanks Luke and Paul,Phil Glen,James and Harvey, Danno is a very happy camper today and Harvey I am definitley sipping cold VB's under the shade of breezy palm in my mind at the moment.

Thanks again guys.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mitch

I have no issue with racing 2yo's.

As many others have already suggested it's certainly not for every horse. Some are at their best at 2, while many others improve as they get older.

I think it's quite easy to explain why champion 2yo's often don't go on and perform later in their careers. Quite simply, they are early maturing horses and they are at their best at 2yo. Just like a late maturing horse might peak at 6, 7 or even older.

What I think can be improved with juvenile racing is the crazy prize money on offer in the futurities. Whilst futurity series are all self funding via the 'sustaining' fee process I would much prefer to see the APG (now only a 2yo series), Breeders Crown, Breeders Challenge etc have an even spread of prize money across all age groups and like the Jewels in NZ be extended 5yo's as well. The lure of such big prize money forces owners and trainers to make short term decisions which are not in the best interests of horses at times.
If the breeders crown for example was of $150k for 2yo's, 3yo's, 4yo's & 5yo's you would still get the best juvenile horses compete.

It will never be removed and nor should it.

I'm not as knowledgable as you guys but I agree it would be much better to spread the $$ evenly over 2yo 3yo 4yo and 5yo.

I'm relatively 'young' I think in this industry, I spend a fair bit at the yearling sales and plan on doing so well into the future, and I can tell you if they had a better spread of prizemoney like mentioned above it would only enhance my enthusiasm to be buying more horses and yearlings into the future.

However if it stays like it is now with the 2yos getting the lions share, well put it this way I have given serious consideration this year to not paying my yearling up for the Gold just because it is so focused on 2yo with nothing for any other age group.

I don't think that sort of lure is good for the industry overall, to be encouraging owners to get their horse absolutely flying as a very early 2yo.

It's a popular misconception that the older horses are 'missing out' on prizemoney because it's being diverted to big $$$ 2yo events.
Fact is the finance for big $$$ for 2yos largely comes in the form of Futurity events where Breeders & Owners pay up along the way and the Industry annually races for its own money.
When the Owners of C0's etc spring 2-3-4-5k each from the pockets to get a pool together then they can race for a 300k purse as well. Until then, IMO they need to get a little perspective on exactly where the $$$ for those juvenile events actually comes from.

Triple V my point is I think it would be far more attractive to me as a buyer to spend more money at the sales - to both pay more for a horse and also possibly buy more horses - if there were race series for 2yo 3yo 4yo and 5yo worth 100k-150k each, rather than just everything thrown into their 2yo year.

The way I think, if my horse misses the 2yo race due to a minor setback or he's not an early maturing gun type, then I still get a race to aim him at in 3yo year, and 4yo year and then at 5yo year too.

Mate I guarantee you that would get me pumped at the sales.

If the same horse is good enough to win every year then doff the hat to that gun he is the best and deserves every cent. But if 4 different horses get a win then every single purchaser at the sales has 4 times as much chance at a very good win for their money! And that would be much more reason to put up your hand at the sales I reckon.

And I would suggest it would be good for the longevity of the horses because I don't think the pressure would be on as much to get them going full bore at such a young age due to that being the only shot at the pot of gold.

Seems logical to me.

The ID final is worth 750K, the Miracle Mile 750K, Hunter Cup 400K, Vic Cup 400K.

The biggest 2yo races are APG 300K and Breeders Crown 300K. Both of these are futurity races ie self funded .There is not very much industry money put in 2yos. That is a big misconception.

It really only starts with the various Oaks/Derbies as 3yos

The one area that needs work on is 4yos. Most are not ready to take the step into free for all/grand circuit racing and there is very little around outside of sires stakes. There is nothing at all for mares and only Chariots of Fire for colts unless you go to WA for Golden Nugget

Quote:

Originally Posted by little fish

Triple V my point is I think it would be far more attractive to me as a buyer to spend more money at the sales - to both pay more for a horse and also possibly buy more horses - if there were race series for 2yo 3yo 4yo and 5yo worth 100k-150k each, rather than just everything thrown into their 2yo year.

The way I think, if my horse misses the 2yo race due to a minor setback or he's not an early maturing gun type, then I still get a race to aim him at in 3yo year, and 4yo year and then at 5yo year too.

Mate I guarantee you that would get me pumped at the sales.

If the same horse is good enough to win every year then doff the hat to that gun he is the best and deserves every cent. But if 4 different horses get a win then every single purchaser at the sales has 4 times as much chance at a very good win for their money! And that would be much more reason to put up your hand at the sales I reckon.

And I would suggest it would be good for the longevity of the horses because I don't think the pressure would be on as much to get them going full bore at such a young age due to that being the only shot at the pot of gold.

Seems logical to me.

[VVV] That would be pretty good I must admit. Kind of along those lines I'd like to see the Grand Circuit extended so that it covers both sexes of 2yos, 3yos, 4yos & Open Class.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mightymo

The ID final is worth 750K, the Miracle Mile 750K, Hunter Cup 400K, Vic Cup 400K.

The biggest 2yo races are APG 300K and Breeders Crown 300K. Both of these are futurity races ie self funded .There is not very much industry money put in 2yos. That is a big misconception.

It really only starts with the various Oaks/Derbies as 3yos

The one area that needs work on is 4yos. Most are not ready to take the step into free for all/grand circuit racing and there is very little around outside of sires stakes. There is nothing at all for mares and only Chariots of Fire for colts unless you go to WA for Golden Nugget

I dont think it's that much of a misconception, I definitely know how the funding works with the industry money and various crown, vicbred and gold series races.

My point is I think APG in particular should be spreading the $ more evenly up to their 5yo year. I think it would make a more attractive enticement for buyers to get involved (which would benefit breeders like yourself) and would also help the industry by removing the all or nothing emphasis on getting your 2yo up and going at such an early age.

If the 2yo race goes from 300k to 125k it wouldn't worry me one iota if the trade off was having a 3yo 100k, 4yo 100k and a 5yo 100k. Funding could come from re-jigging the sustainer amounts or adding a small extra sustainer for the 3yo 4yo and 5yo years.

They have changed the APG structure that many times already, they are obviously willing to look at better ways of doing it.

I was genuine in my comment that I seriously considered not paying up for the gold this year. My thinking was that I wanted to relieve the pressure from my trainers to be pushing the 2yos before they were ready. I trust my trainers, but the industry does it hard, and it is 300 grand after all.

Quote:

Originally Posted by little fish

I dont think it's that much of a misconception, I definitely know how the funding works with the industry money and various crown, vicbred and gold series races.

My point is I think APG in particular should be spreading the $ more evenly up to their 5yo year. I think it would make a more attractive enticement for buyers to get involved (which would benefit breeders like yourself) and would also help the industry by removing the all or nothing emphasis on getting your 2yo up and going at such an early age.

If the 2yo race goes from 300k to 125k it wouldn't worry me one iota if the trade off was having a 3yo 100k, 4yo 100k and a 5yo 100k. Funding could come from re-jigging the sustainer amounts or adding a small extra sustainer for the 3yo 4yo and 5yo years.

They have changed the APG structure that many times already, they are obviously willing to look at better ways of doing it.

I was genuine in my comment that I seriously considered not paying up for the gold this year. My thinking was that I wanted to relieve the pressure from my trainers to be pushing the 2yos before they were ready. I trust my trainers, but the industry does it hard, and it is 300 grand after all.

Barry I think your ideas are very close to what our game needs, the commercial breeders will need to adjust their approach to the marketing of their product and the whole industry will need to make similarly sized adjustments, but if our game is going to survive in the longer term, the types of changes you are proposing are IMO, going to improve the returns and aspirations for the people who attend the yearling sales and also encourage the hobby breeder(s) to continue in a similar vein.

The sooner we stop people relying on "winning the lottery" and instead allow their horse to develop without undue pressure the more owners will see a positive result from their faith in our game.

Thanks ,
Dan

Into the bargain an Owner could ask their Trainer & the Farrier & the Feed bloke & the Vet & so on to make similarly long term investments in a horse and similarly wait 2-3-4 years + for their money.

With the two different camps on this debate, does anyone think that if the Miles could do it all again, they would have spelled Mindara P after she was crook in the lead up to the VSS final last month.

Hindsight a wonderful thing...

Your dead right Brenno, hindsight is a wonderful thing, but so too is experience and history, because they help us ( if we take heed of the lessons ) to not continually make the same mistakes.
The thing that annoys me in this particular issue is that when it comes to 2yos, you have very few opportunities to bounce back from the damage that comes from mistakes when trying to make 2yo race horses out of horses that are not forward enough to do so. More often than not the damage is done and it's more often than not permanent.

People who have trained horses and learned from mistakes ( often called hindsight Brenno) will tell you the dangers are real, people who have a product to sell may tell you what they need to tell you in order to sell the product.....and if you get caught, that would be seen from the benefit of hindsight too mighten it?

Sometimes people need to make their own mistakes, it just annoys me when it's the horse that is the one that suffers the most.

cheers,
Dan

If not for a perfect drive from B Trembath Mindarie Priddy wins the Vic Sires and not a word is spoken about her ill health. I will back the judgement of David and Lisa Miles in this case. Miles has a lot of experience and history, and has trained a lot of good horses and one would assume he had made mistakes and learnt from them down the track. Did you get on the phone to them and tell them to scratch and spell pre Vicbred final?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Danno

Your dead right Brenno, hindsight is a wonderful thing, but so too is experience and history, because they help us ( if we take heed of the lessons ) to not continually make the same mistakes.
The thing that annoys me in this particular issue is that when it comes to 2yos, you have very few opportunities to bounce back from the damage that comes from mistakes when trying to make 2yo race horses out of horses that are not forward enough to do so. More often than not the damage is done and it's more often than not permanent.

People who have trained horses and learned from mistakes ( often called hindsight Brenno) will tell you the dangers are real, people who have a product to sell may tell you what they need to tell you in order to sell the product.....and if you get caught, that would be seen from the benefit of hindsight too mighten it?

Sometimes people need to make their own mistakes, it just annoys me when it's the horse that is the one that suffers the most.

cheers,
Dan

The problem about hindsight is if you make what hindsight suggests would've been the 'wise' choice at the time then you miss all the big money races - which hurts - but obviously your horse doesn't break down either and yes it gets given the time it needs to develop but because it didn't break down you are left thinking what might have been.

It is like that movie 'sliding doors' - you keep going and it breaks down, but you stop and then you see horses you were running against are starting to have success in the big races and you think hmmm could that have been us.

I will always err on the side of resting them. I had a couple of nice 2yo's this season one whom in particular we were aiming at the crown, he showed signs he would be a better horse if given time in the paddock instead of being pushed right now, and even though we thought we would've been competitive in the big 2yo races we decided to pull up stumps and give him a few months in the paddock. I think we have done the right thing by the horse, but it would be a much easier decision if the 2yo races were worth 150k instead of 300k

Quote:

Originally Posted by aussiebreno

If not for a perfect drive from B Trembath Mindarie Priddy wins the Vic Sires and not a word is spoken about her ill health. I will back the judgement of David and Lisa Miles in this case. Miles has a lot of experience and history, and has trained a lot of good horses and one would assume he had made mistakes and learnt from them down the track. Did you get on the phone to them and tell them to scratch and spell pre Vicbred final?

I must say I was a little wary starting this thread up again on the back of the Miles misfortune but it seemed to me a classic scenario for thrashing out the issue. I know David is a big boy and would have had opinions on the topic before and since Saturday. Only he and Lisa could tell us if there is even a 1% chance they might have missed something but it goes without saying they would always have the welfare of their champion filly in mind . As for phoning them, you're just being silly - that would be like me sticking my beak into your marital affairs!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Danno

Your dead right Brenno, hindsight is a wonderful thing, but so too is experience and history, because they help us ( if we take heed of the lessons ) to not continually make the same mistakes.
The thing that annoys me in this particular issue is that when it comes to 2yos, you have very few opportunities to bounce back from the damage that comes from mistakes when trying to make 2yo race horses out of horses that are not forward enough to do so. More often than not the damage is done and it's more often than not permanent.

People who have trained horses and learned from mistakes ( often called hindsight Brenno) will tell you the dangers are real, people who have a product to sell may tell you what they need to tell you in order to sell the product.....and if you get caught, that would be seen from the benefit of hindsight too mighten it?

Sometimes people need to make their own mistakes, it just annoys me when it's the horse that is the one that suffers the most.

cheers,
Dan

[VVV] I understand she bled Dan...you can hardly blame David and Lisa for that. Hindsight has been mentioned elsewhere in this thread.
EIPH is almost always a cumulative issue & so with the 20/20 benefit of that...perhaps a prior disapointing peformance or two by the filly suggested she had previously done so, as in bled,...only this time around it was such that the evidence of same became visible.
Maybe she could have been scoped straight after she returned her first sub par effort?
At the time, did the minds of anyone else here immediately go to her possibly having bled?
I'd certainly not have immediately thought of that. Anyone else?
Even if it was identified, what could they have done about it anyway? Our rules don't allow for the use of Lasix, Aicar etc. Hindsight indeed.
On a related note, EIPH is by far and away the single biggest animal welfare issue both Horse Racing codes could seek to address...and only for the fact that 8 or 9 times out of 10 it remains all but hidden (as in the aspirated blood remains in the lungs/lower airways as opposed to the upper airways/nostrils) we'd have the RSPCA and PETA on our case on a daily basis.
On a further related note, there's a large body of evidence in a few studies that I've read to suggest horses that race up on the enginel/hot/pull hard are many times more likely to experience EIPH issues than their more relaxed counterparts.
Is it a coincidence that this particular filly seemed to race pretty hot, especially so in her initial starts? Did that contribute to and ultimately cause her to bleed? Perhaps...perhaps not. Food for thought.
One thing's for certain, NONE of it has anything at all to do with racing her as a 2yo.
I'd like to have one that was not forward enough to race who nevertheless at her 1st & 2nd lifetime starts went within a Bee's todger of becoming the fastest 2yo filly ever in the Southern Hemisphere. Making her the Poster Child for lets ban 2yo racing is a pretty fair old stretch, IMO.

Jamie,
my comments were more generic about "hindsight" than just the issue with this filly on this occasion, and my comments were also about learning from experience rather than ignoring the experience and calling it "luck" or "bad luck".

I have had a couple of bleeders in my time, one that gave classic warning signs and another that gave NONE, so I was not having a shot at the Miles' or anyone else for that matter, simply making the point that history and experience should not be ignored, allowing "hindsight" to be used as an excuse for failure.

I think we would all like to have the benefit of 20/20 hindsight, but also not be looking to use it as an excuse.

[
Quote:

QUOTE]One thing's for certain, NONE of it has anything at all to do with racing her as a 2yo.

[/QUOTE]

as usual Jamie, that is an absolute ripper of a totally baseless statement, I'd be interested to see what science this statement is supported by.

Cheers,
Dan

Thanks for the debate men. Not being a horseman, I am always interested in hearing the viewpoint of those that are. Is bute banned out here too? One article I read mentioned that it and lasix are the only medications allowed in a racing horses bloodstream in the US and suggested bute causes "thinner" blood with some suggestion that the problem of EIPH is exacerbated by thinner blood. I know that a 2yo would not be on bute and do appreciate that Mindara's bleed is probably a cruel blow that just came out of left field. Danno does have a point however VVVV, in that we cannot say NONE of it has anything at all to do with racing her as a 2yo - being a smart alec here but I can't imagine her bleeding out in the paddock

Fellas, a lack of effort there on my part for not properly putting my comment across.
The point I was trying to make was...Is there a higher instance of 2yos bleeding as compared to older, more mature horses? Obviously not and therefore it follows that her age or lackthereof has had absolutely nothing to do with what happened to her. Mutually exclusive.

Without wanting to buy into the argument...

I’m the trainer. I'm very good at what I do. I do it for a living. Not a pastime or hobby, but a living. If it’s forced upon me or not, I do the very best for the people that support me (the owners) and the horse. That means tipping the horse out for while or whatever

I'm the owner. Been trying my whole life to get the fast one. I got the best one going around and there’s a $300k race staring me in face.

Horse is 100% OK.

What do I do?

What do I do?

Ask the trainer what he would do if he was the owner ;)

http://www.harnesslink.com/Internati...Breeders-Crown

I know I'm a pain, but it just keeps urking me that profit comes before the sport, after all thats why I'm in the game for sport/fun....thats why Bob's comments and observations cause me to get concerned!!!!