the one that surprises me the most from those numbers is Modern Art. Also, im sure Real Desire would get more now based on his 2yos to dateQuote:
Originally Posted by mango
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the one that surprises me the most from those numbers is Modern Art. Also, im sure Real Desire would get more now based on his 2yos to dateQuote:
Originally Posted by mango
Hi Mightymo
I think people were just playing it safe by not going to Real Desire due to that he's by Life Sign. Life Sign's have been under achiever's to say the very least and i own one. And you are correct in saying Real Desire would get more based on his progeny's efforts on the track they seem to be going real good. Yes Modern Art surprised me as well from a seller's point of view they just don't sell good enough.
G'day fellas,
IMO Modern Art is the go-to if you are breeding to race them yourself & especially so if you are trying to get a to that point unsuccessful mare on the board.
He doesn't seem to need a specific bloodline to produce his winners & they also tend to get going early & realtively easily so a lot of Trainers of very widely varying ability will get them to the races.
He also has a happy knack of correcting front end conformation/gait issues in a mare's foals, something which is kind of tied in with the aforementioned.
Often you'll find one of his 2yo starters is the 1st starter the mare has ever produced or if not then then quite often they're her first 2yo starter ever...or interestingly a Trainer's 1st 2yo starter/winner.
As such I think that the 154 (?)...was recorded almost entirely by the breed to race breeders. I say this with some conviction because quite clearly they do not sell well. Rightly or wrongly this time around 24 Modern Art Yearlings sold fr an average of just $10,000 & his highest seller this season was a $20,000 colt from Headline Franco that Joe Cordina purchased here in Sydney. Nationally, the next sellers were 17k, 16k, 15k x 2, 14k, 12k, 11k, 10k, 9k & so on down the line. Commercial Breeders would starve to death with those numbers.
Real Desire is interesting. I can't say I'm a fan of the horse though to his credit his Oz bred 2yos have done exactly what they did in Kentucky by way of them getting up and rolling relatively early.
It's well worth noting however that they're going no better than Modern Art's initial crop did...and in fact there's a fair case to be made that they're not going anywhere near as good...and look where Modern Art finds himself now. You can keep ol' Real Desire, not for mine matey. :(
My money's long been on Four Starzzz Shark. He has had both the quality of mares and the numbers to get every chance. His 1st Oz bred commercial crop will make their debut in earnest in January/Feb of 2012 & beyond and I'll be stunned if they do not make a big impact here.
I agree Modern Art's average ($10,000) at the sale's was good but i was talking about breeding to him now and selling in 2yrs time i doubt the average will be near that. Thats my opinion and i'll stick with that.
I don't know enough about Real Desire's progeny racing but i thought people might of stayed away due to him been by Life Sign and that has been mentioned to me a few time's. So far there going good out here and he had a 1st and 2nd at Cambridge tonight.
Four Starzzz Shark should make it as a stallion he was a great racehorse and has done a tremendous job in the states to date with smaller books than some of the fancied one's. He has served 3 good books out here so that will help and as Triple has said he has served some quality mare's as well.
i couldnt go to Modern Art. He really has been a very big disappointment for mine. He sires horses that get up and go as early 2yos , but never seem to get any better...
I havent bred to real Desire either this year, but Im surprised by how many 2yo and good ones that he is getting. actually had 2 fillies quinella tonight at Cambridge
wouldnt touch a MA
Interesting what you say about Modern Art.Quote:
Originally Posted by mightymo
I have also heard a few opinions that Real Desires are 2yos; although thats really unproven at this stage and just trainers thoughts.
He isnt that badQuote:
Originally Posted by buster
[QUOTE=mango;5452]I agree Modern Art's average ($10,000) at the sale's was good but i was talking about breeding to him now and selling in 2yrs time i doubt the average will be near that. Thats my opinion and i'll stick with that.]
That's the point I made Mango. $10,000 is already pretty bad and it will not improve. The breed to race crew have him all to themselves.
Hi Triple
Thats the point i was trying to make as to Modern Art, breed to race and not to sell i should of explained myself better.
Hi AussiebrenoQuote:
Originally Posted by aussiebreno
He has had some nice horses but with the good size books he has had my opinion is that he probably should of had more.
Indeed. He has had plenty of winners but he really should have had quite a few more genuinely top-end performers.
Don't worry. You've probably caught some sort of virus from Buster...one that makes you beat around the bush. He is forever infected thus. :pQuote:
Originally Posted by mango
Any word on how the stallion station sire's went like mach 3 and major in artQuote:
Originally Posted by mango
Hi Shannon
Only got N.Z results on them, Australia's results for them aren't confirmed as yet. Mach 3 111 and Major in Art 13 in N.Z as soon as i can find out there results for Australia i'll post them.
Courage Under Fire 162Quote:
Originally Posted by mango
Major In Art 152
Mister Big 70
Santanna Blue Chip 59
Mach 3 49
Art Official 17
17 for Art official seems a bit said would have been DA MAN in the US if it wasn't for the freak SBSW, cannot fathom those numbers I rate him is it the Falcon Seelster in him?
Hi Nat
I can't see there being a problem with having Falcon Seelster in him if anything i think it's a good thing. Falcon has done a great job out here and his mare's are breeding on. I think it may of been his price but thats only speculating and the same could be said for Mister Big and yes he was a great racehorse but you can get his father Grin cheaper and who is a proven sire.
Very ordinary type Nat, at least to my eye anyway.Quote:
Originally Posted by nat
For mine, watching him pacing along with SBSW was like watching a Ford Taurus pull in alongside a Lamborghini Gallardo.
He seems to be a bit of a 1 off until you get to the third dam IMO maybe some people look at it that way instead of just seeing the good racehorse side of the horse
It is quite awhile since I had time to post a comment here but after I recieved a call about this one from breeder in Australia that bred to the horse I just had to make time to answer this one. I had to make time.Quote:
Originally Posted by triplev123
Triplev123 whoever you are you certainly has never looked at Art Official because he is a stunner and a splitting image of his sire Art Major. Ordinary type says triplev123 you just have to be joking. As for his racing well if anybody saw Art Official beating Somebeachsomewhere in the Meadowlands Pace in a world record 1:47 then I would like to own a lot more of those "Ford Tauras".
The fact of the matter is that the Stallion Station did no advertising this past year and are out of business this year. They bred 1800 mares two years ago and just on a thousand this year.
The srevice fee for Art Official was too much for a start and like a lot of stallions was way over priced. This is something that will be corrected by all studs this coming year I believe or they will suffer.
Most breeders did not even know the horse stood for the season anywhere let alone that he stood in New Zealand. I am amazed he got as many mares as he did.
As for his racing it was world class against the best. After beating Somebeachsomewhere in the Pace the two horses never met again!!!! Art Official went on to go 1:47.4 as a four year old against the very best.
And just remember if you did not know he broke the world record at the time on a half mile track at Freehold 1:50.4 in the cane pace. At the Jug he probably should not have started as he got hurt and did not go as well as he was sore but nevertheless he still won a heat and ran third in the final.
Here are the videos of this so call "Ford Taurus" winning. There is not much better that you can breed to than Art Official. He is as good as they get.
ART OFFICIAL 1:47 2008 MEADOWLANDS PACE $1,100,000 World Record
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jJvtDaLZ8FQ
2008 Cane Pace
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=00RGM0rDY5E
JC, if you're saying that with a straight face then you need to get yourself along to OPSM for I fear that you may be suffering from Macular Degeneration or otherwise, Glaucoma.
I have got an Optometrist mate who works at their Castle Hill store and can get you in any time you like. Please consider it in any case. Eyesight is a very precious thing and we need to take care of it.
By the way, here's a picture of Art Major.
http://oddsonracing.com/img/ArtMajor_WEB.jpg
http://www.stallionstation.com.au/up...cial-small.jpg
Spitting image is he?
Hi John
To be honest with you i thought he stood in Australia and that's why i put him in the Aus section. Looking at Art Major i reckon For A Reason looks alot like him. Do you have a pic of Art Official now that he has let down. And i'd have to agree with Triple SBSW looks a way better type strong all the way through.
G'day Mango,
If it comes down to a head to head beauty contest for sons of Art Major, IMO by far & away the best looking son of Art Major currently at stud is Santanna Blue Chip and there is a fair case to be argued that he is also the best gaited one, making him a rather nice combination.
http://www.alabar.com.au/Portals/0/L...p%20(race).jpg
A lot of people get hung up on the shape of their heads...but heads aren't everything.
http://www.harness.org.au/news/images/main/4466.jpg
It hasn't stopped Hayes. ;)
Triple v i take it you have seen Art Official in the flesh i don't think you can judge a horse on look's from a race photo and the race photo's or videos don't do any horses much favour it would be interesting to see a photo of the horses when they are let down to see what they ended up like
Is it true the camera adds on 20 pounds.Quote:
Originally Posted by triplev123
Geeze I hope not.
I'm 3 wide and charging at the Michelin Man as it is. :cool:
Hi Mango
The Seelster comment was to the fact of abundance of Seelster mare down under, no one will care what the stallion looks like as long as his progeny can run and you would think Art Official's record would speak for its self
Hi Nat
You are right there are a lot of Falcon mare's around but there are heaps of others that would suit him i'm sure. As for looks you are correct it shouldn't matter as long as his progeny can run but i think i'm also right in saying SBSW looks a stronger type and yes there is a big price difference. I would like to see a pic of Art Official now that he has let down just to see how he filled out. I think JC hit the nail on the head (over priced) and to make a stallion you need the numbers on the ground, with only serving 66 in n.z and 17 in Aus that won't help him. It will also be interesting to see where all these stallions from the stallion station end up.
Hey TripleQuote:
Originally Posted by triplev123
Use your side step from back in the day and stay away from them camera's if that's the case.
Good morning Mango
SBSW hands down has that CC look and style about him, but if looks were the measure Shadow Play would have bred 500 mares this season, cannot remember off the top of me head but Art Official was around the $6-7,000 where he should have been around the $4,000. It will be interesting where the Stallion Station horse's will end up especially CUF.
Hi Nat
Yes it will be interesting where CUF ends up and then there's Mach 3, Mister Big, Major In Art and a heap of others. There's a rumour doing the rounds that Alabar want Mach 3 and CUF but how much truth to that is anyone's guess. Yes Shadow Play has the looks, an American trainer who was out here not so long ago told a mate of mine to stay away from the Panderosa line don't know what thats about as i wasn't privy to the conversation.
In some ways we cannot take into account what happens in the US with what cross go's with what as it seems to be thrown out the window when these stallions start crossing with our bloodlines look at ITP, Fake Left, Armbro Op., Safely Kept couldn't get a gig in the US and he revolutionized our breed the only Big time stallion that has delivered is Art Major
G'day Mango,
That's fair comment but I think it's worth noting that Shadow Play has one absolutely vital attribute that very few if any of the other sons of The Panderosa have displayed and that very few people, if any, have acknowledged thus far...and that is point to point high speed.
P-Forty Seven certainly didn't have it & neither did Metropolitan nor Town Champion and in general I think the stock of The Panderosa have been grinders more than speed horses so that that has quite rightly counted against him in the US.
For mine, Shadow Play is atypical of his sire's offspring. He is more like those of his late grandsire, Western Hanover. Of course, it's possible that Shadow Play could come out and sire more to the grinders end of the spectrum, like his dad did...but I very much doubt it.
This is the point where JC chimes in and extolls the virtues of Eric & Seldon's Shockwave & Aranesp Emporium graduate, Town Champion. Cue JC and....go! :p
Hey Triple
That comment i wrote wasn't mine as i don't mind the horse i was just passing on what i had heard from a mate and wasn't privy to the original conversation. He might turn out to be a champion which only time will tell.
Hi Nat
Id agree with you there as i'm a huge ITP fan, with my comments i wasn't saying what Shadow Play goes with all i was told was to steer clear of The Panderosa line and as i said i don't know why. Maybe Triple explained why they might look at The Panderosa and his progeny that way cause they are grinders.
G'day Mango,
Yeh, I understand that. I've heard some pretty crazy things over the years and that is not the worst let me assure you. Years ago, after a NSW Breeders Committee Meeting I stood in the Bankstown Sports Club Bar one night as, before the horse's 1st crop had even been foaled, a very well known NSW Breeder urged me to put all the mares that I could get my hands on...to Stoneridge Scooter...GOD FORBID! I periodically remind him of it to this day but now, with tongue firmly in his cheek, he denies that he said it.
I just think the steer clear of the whole sireline completely thing is more than just a bit of a sweeping comment by whoever made it originally, that's all. It doesn't take into account repeated historical and more recent breed examples to the contrary.
Here in Oz especially there has always been a little too much getting hung up on the sires of new sires rather than really looking at the individuals in question, something I've never really understood.
I was never an In The Pocket fan... but Christian Cullen, he was something else entirely.
In much the same vein, IMO Shadow Play's nothing at all like the rest of The Panderosas, Somebeachsomewhere's nothing like the rest of the Mach Threes, Artistic Fella's nothing like the rest of the Pacific Fellas...and yet you'll hear some people pot each of them based solely on their sire?????? I just don't understand.
As great looking individuals coupled with their respective deeds on the racetrack...it really wouldn't matter a zac to me if they didn't have a sire or a dam.
The same line of thinking extends to new & existing sires that happen to have somewhat offbeat or lesser known horses as their dam sires.
The bloodlines of so many of the best sires in the breed debunks that theory also with the likes of Overtrick, Nihilator, Armbro Emerson, Blaze Pick, Striking Image, Dancer Hanover, Shadow Wave, Adioo Guy, Duane Hanover, Towner's Big Guy etc. all making guest appearances as the damsires of some of the greatest sires to ever jump a mare.
Also, many of the newest sires available to us today are so by way of a relatively weak link in their not too distant past. Silent Majority (down to Sportswriter), Oil Burner (down to Rock N Roll Heaven) & Direct Scooter (down to Somebeachsomewhere)... for example.
Here ends today's Sermon. :rolleyes:
Rock N Roll Hanover
I cant say I have heard anymore regarding him coming to Australia in the flesh and his service fee. Any update /