I have found the main bone of contention for the trots of getting 'burnt' is becoming locked in a pocket and never seeing the light of day!! solve that one.
I have found the main bone of contention for the trots of getting 'burnt' is becoming locked in a pocket and never seeing the light of day!! solve that one.
I think the point needs to be made that, if stands only occur on the odd high profile race, then the probability will be that horses and horse men will not have acquired the necessary experience to fly the stand.
If standing starts were to occur with increased regularity on lower tiered racing, then that would improve the skill and experience of the horse and driver.
Anything to avoid the, 'all in a indian line' style of American racing. It is just plain boring.
Agree 100% it's all about education of both horse and driver. Also some horses are not suited mentally to stand start racing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tangles
For those of you who saw last night's running of the 2015 Auckland Cup (version 1), it will be the last of its kind (2700m mobile).
The ATC has decided that the race will revert to its original format and date of 3200m stand on 31 December each year.
A great move in my opinion, all mobile racing is reducing our ability to handicap fields adequately and leading to more and more boring, predictable racing, which in turn is turning both punters and participants away.Quote:
Originally Posted by teecee
We'll have the case for standing starts and the case against in the next edition of Harness Racing Victoria's glossy magazine, the Harness Racer.
Case for by Paul Courts, case against by Adam Hamilton. Should make an interesting read. #Debate
Thanks for that Cody, would love to see a few more participants in the debate than just 2 and would also like to see a bit more depth in Harness racing experience, Adam anad Paul are great advocates and commentators for the game, but a view point from some trainers and drivers would add a bit more I think.
Totally agree with Dan and Wayne's comments, It's a massive issue and needs to be discussed with a panel of more than 2 people.
I can assure you the Harness Racer article doesn't aim to be the seminal catalyst for any change of future direction. However, it will be a good read of two trots blokes' opinions on the matter...Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard prior
If you have time have a look at the Boort Pacing Cup video from Sunday,
Not sure that all got a fair and equal start.
If they did then Paul Gadsdens drive to get from post 6 to behind the leader, then use the sprint lane to pass in the straight, wa a very good drive.
However there is inconsistency re the approach of the starters... the Boort start was from a stand, while others recently have been walk-ups.
how many people were consulted in the 8o's when the so called experts in this country assumed that mobile racing was the only gig in town.The fact that the tracks were too small never entered these erudite minds.lets get back to sanity and have a nice balanced fare instead of the tripe we have been served up.
Cobram Cup..worth over $30,000 and its a standing start.
Check out the stewards reports.
http://www.harness.org.au/meeting-re...O271215&ms=vic
12 starters, and ONLY 2 went away the way they were supposed to. The other 10 galloped out, began badly or stood flat footed.
The $2.60 fav Hector Jay Jay stood flat footed and was pulled up. Stewards report NO ACTION TAKEN.
To add to the debacle (another standing start)
In the Cobram Trotters Cup, 6 of the 12 starters finished further than 193 metres from the winner. Effectively only 6 horses competed. Another terrible spectacle.
Noel,
if we were running one mobile race every cracker night, and almost no mobile trials we would get similar stats, surely to Christ we have learned that all mobile racing is NOT the answer to our industry's issues.....if we haven't then I'd reckon we ( trotting..oops harness people) are the slowest learners on earth.
Not so sure we would get similar stats. Just from my experience in watching Greenys and 2yo trials despite there race inexperience they still a lot better at getting away from the mobile than SS horses. Lets not forget a lot of these trotters making mistakes are pretty experienced and not just stuffing up cos they usually rsce mobile.Quote:
Originally Posted by Danno
Standing Starts as a Wagering Proposition?
As the current business model for clubs is revenue through 10% of on-course , and a a share of off course from all providors, then we can afford to have this for punters:
From the Stewards Report for the $30,000 Cobram Cup:
Hall Of Famer, Road To Rock, Kotare Roland NZ, Ideal Majority, Macho Comacho NZ, Barimah and Smudge Bromac NZ all began badly or galloped soon after the start and as a result Hall Of Famer, Road To Rock, Kotare Roland NZ, Ideal Majority and Barimah will now be placed outside the standing start draw while Macho Comacho NZ and Smudge Bromac NZ will remain out of the draw.
Smo NZ galloped briefly at the start and was placed on its last chance in the draw.
The favourite: Hector Jay Jay failed to walk up to the starting point when required to do so and therefore stood flat footed and took no effective part in the start.
Mobiles for all please !
Danno going back a long time ago when mobiles were not as prevelant as today but were still there.Most trainers at the end of fast work would stand horses up and let the pace away to get used to stand.Quote:
Originally Posted by Danno
Something tells me Danno knows this!Quote:
Originally Posted by barney
Noel, we have a handicapping problem, it is due to a number of factors and it is crippling turnover.
Some of the factors are,
a) a lower number of horses in the available pool for each meeting.
b) far too many short distance races.
c) almost all mobile starts, where the only opportunity to handicap is via barrier draw. ( this is a system that has been proven NOT to work over and over again.)
d) in NSW concessions for Junior drivers, mares and drop back clauses all being available accumulatively.
The problems caused by the COMBINATION of all these factors are many , many, short odds on favourites and who wants to have a bet in those circumstances?
I have been around a while in this silly game and heard all various gripes about the various issues, but we have painted ourselves into a corner of predictability and mate it IS NOT WORKING.
please save me from explaining why just one of the things ( standing starts) that has applied considerable paint to the floor, by at least trying to understand we had a vibrant, punter friendly, much more successful industry BEFORE mostly mobile racing has had its negative impact on our game.
Cheers,
Danno.
We did have Odds On faves in all but the trot at Bendigo tonight with 5/7 winning.
Many of them were very short but the shortest price fav at $1.04 was beaten and it's ridiculous to think that that horse was a 2yo having its first start in a 5 horse field - harness punters look like dills sometimes
I say leave the stand start alone- yes there are a lot of false starters and it can be annoying as you watch them get ready at the tapes. It is a very traditional style of racing which is why I like it and the mug punter can get a long shot winner as well. I am quite sure there are other things that are far worse to take out of harness racing than the stand start
It definetly comes down to training , I stand them up every day , before jogging they stand and go and all my fast work stand and go , and 99% of the time mine go away from the stand, but also I train trotters majority of the time currently 3 trotters 1 pacer so stand start training is essential
Well, what do you say.
First try at the Shepparton Gold Cup standing start and the front barrier doesn't release and is broken , with Josh Duggan having to right the sulky and remount on Pachacuti.
Then after all had reformed, a hand held front tape ( in a Group 2 race?), and if you watch it,
http://www.harness.org.au/meeting-re...ic#SPC16011601
a walk-up or in the case of some on the 10 m mark, a running start.
Where was the 10 m strand, and where was the strand behind the 10 m horses?
There are meant to be 3 strands I thought...but only one ( and hand held ?) .
Time to look professional, give each horse an equal chance, or give the standing starts away.
All tapes must now be hand held in Victoria as of the two stands at Warragul tomorrow.
Starter will wave a green flag to dispatch the field.
I like them, it gives great diversity. However clubs seem to think Cup/standing start. However, horses, trainers and drivers do not get frequent experience standing up.
Put a stand on at every meeting, very the class to acclimatise the horse/driver to racing from the stand. You cannot just blonk a mobile horse in a stand and say there you go now don't make a mess of it.
The end of stand start racing in Victoria for pacers!
http://www.harness.org.au/news-artic...?news_id=28632
Standing starts in Vic for pacers abolished.
The bureaucrats site fall in wagering, Yet trotters with their large percentage of standing starts are increasing turnover and are being Internationally recognised as a commercial wagering product. Go figure.
It will be put forward as away of attracting the new age punter, whilst forgetting the traditionalist as they are seen as rusted on. So the bureaucratic will happily alienate a segment of the punting public all in the hope of attracting the "new age punter". Let me remind the bureaucrats that from age 30-50 yrs I had very little excess income private school fees, mortgage, wife, farm etc, now the Grey nomads as the media calls them are well heeled up superannuation, resizing of the family home, be very careful of re-branding a product that has endured the test of time.
Next broadcasters via the same bureaucrats will be wanting more 1000m- 1600m racing, more races= more turnover. It is about the time taken for stands to proceed and the distance of cup races taking more time. Its a cost equation for broadcasting time. If you live long enough it all goes around.
Rationalise Rationalise Rationalise.
Not necessarily disputing this claim but is there evidence of this and how does this compare to recent trends in Pacers MS. Especially taking into regard trot SS V trot MS and also taking into regard that I believe Europe has started betting on our trot races in recent times.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tangles
Don't like this 'New Age' & 'Evolving' terminology... Sounds very Darwininan and Mystical at the same time.. Oh the irony :p
Maybe they should have had only experienced trainers who specialise in Standing starts, that way people would be looking forward to these traditional races so much more, and people would have bet more comfortably knowing that all horses have had the best opportunities..
Adam Hamilton nailed it.
Going the way of the drop kick, the centre bounce and booing opposition players- once you take it away, it never comes back. I guess I am not just a "new age punter" or "evolving" type of guy
A little more history at Warragul today with the first "flag start" from the stand in the Trotters Handicap.
I felt they could have had Murray Walker there saying "and its go! go! go!" when they waved the flag - but never mind.
Based on turnover, I am guessing that the Monte race at Melton on Friday will have to be the last we ever see :confused:
They are claiming that the Monte races are additional races and they don't care about turnover on them ! So they will continue. ??
I find SS trotting races to be the most frustrating, they have many more gallopers than pacing races but they will continue.??
Last years poll found that over 70% of people wanted stand starts to continue. So much for the new look board that was going to consult the industry before making major changes. This change is due (imo) to pressure from the TAB , just like closing the tote windows at Melton and racing on Friday night instead of Saturday night. All bad decisions for the future of our industry.
Quote:
Originally Posted by gutwagon
From the CEO's Desk January 18 2016
In the same breath as announcing the demise of SS races the CEO announces the first meeting of the new Harness Racing Advisory Council (HRAC) is to be held in February.
The legislative functions of the HRAC are to:
That's a lovely welcome for the HRAC members....
- Advise the HRV Board on matters concerning harness racing, and
- Facilitate consultation between the Board and harness racing industry participants.
S&$/ Wayne, I thought you were going to say that Anderson resigned.
Was nice of HRV to rush through the SS decision before the HRAC even meets ! If they are so confident that it's the right move they should have waited for the HRAC to approve it !
Small fields are the biggest threat to turnover. What are they doing to get new owners and breeders ? What are they doing to keep the current owners and breeders ?
The fish rots from the head down !
well said, i became a fan of the trots nearly 50 yrs ago watching a horse like Halwes come off 36 yards etc and win fast class cup races at Harold Park,such expectation and excitement!!The powers to be will have the sport here reduced to endless boring mobile miles of Yonkers, meadowlands etc.thank you Victoria for sending us down this road of ruin,just like you have done in the thoroughbred sphere where prepared track conditions dictate who comes out on top,this generation has much to answer for where everything is down to the almighty dollar.what a disgrace!!
I have been blown away by this decision by HRV to do away with the other form of our racing product. That of Standing starts. It just cuts off another form the point of an owners point of view to earn a return. Why every decision made today is that of our administrators that single out turnover as the number one key to our industry, and everything else can fall in behind this. In my understanding of our sport we have several critical points that are paramount to our sport going forward, Holding onto owners, developing and attracting new owners, increasing foal numbers that lead into Racing numbers that then provides the product for us to punt on are so,so important. This decision will lead to less owners maximising a return from their horse. I can honestly state that without Standing Start racing my involvement with the sport would not have been anyway as large as without a horse I owned and raced called "About To Rock" that was a real class act from the stand, With a trainer in Andy Gath and a young girl in Kate Thompson (now Kate Gath) that helped us achieve a level that I could only ever dream of, All from a horse that had a gift that enabled him to maximise my level of return and satisfaction along the way of setting up Andy and Kate to be recognised as being true professionals in our sport. Everything the "Rock" gave us we have all given back to our sport in spades, Now we lose another connection with our sport that takes away something without offering any reason other than turnover is not as good as it is from the mobile gate. I hate to say it, but I can only see less and less horses making up fields as a large number of SS horses are not as compeditive from the mobile. As I said to begin with, it just hurts to see one area of our sport controlling just about all other areas without understanding the consequences of the nett effect of what we are left to have to try and deal with.
Well that's my take on it all.
Well said Rob
I think gutwagon nailed it when he said this smells like a decision made under pressure from the TAB, with a supportive quote from Adam Hamilton ready to go. The trouble is the TAB always makes the same mistake. They promote some change like this one, which may or may not give a bounce in tote betting for a few months, but is detrimental to the sport in the long run. Another is getting metro clubs like Menangle and Albion Park to run their first races at 5 PM or so, killing any chance of drawing a crowd in the process. The gain turns out to be either short term, or non-existent, but the damage to the sport lingers.