Price reductions across the board by Alabar.Quote:
Originally Posted by Termite
What about Shadow Play ?
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Price reductions across the board by Alabar.Quote:
Originally Posted by Termite
What about Shadow Play ?
Mach 3's service fee is attractive and even more so if you have a couple of mare's and can get the discount.
Can't help you there eb. Only asked those I had an interest/curiosity for. Call them up. All prices are set. What isn't set however is a limit for the BIG GUN- Art Major.
I wonder why they havn't updated there website with the price's and discount structure.
Mango, I'm sure you've noticed that there seems to be a constant lag btn stud decisions and easy public access on the web. Alabar are the best... On every measure... However I agree that this info should be up. Ironically, their biggest oz competitor in ptf are not much better when it comes to such things.
Peppertree Farm have had there price's up for a month, i suppose they got them up early in the hope of getting early pre booking's.
Now that a lot of studs have dropped there service fee's i wonder if Christian Cullen's fee will be dropped, he is the dearest stallion standing in the Southern Hemishere and he isn't getting the mare's he use to. For him to stay competitive and get a good book of mare's they might have to drop him down to be level with Art Major/Bettor's Delight. This is just my opinion and i'm wondering what people's thought's are on this.
agreed mango, although he still the leading stallion in NZ (leads the all age, 2yr old, 4yr old and 2nd 3yr old).. but i'd say he just can't serve the big numbers
Hi Gold Ace
Yes that is probably true, but i also think he might struggle a little to even get the numbers he has been getting over the last few years due to the fee's of the other stallion's so they might have to drop it to get around there 150 mark.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mango
G'day Mango,
Unless you're prepared to ship your mare to NZ it won't matter a whole lot what CC's fee is for Oz breeders. Recent experiences have dictated that his transported semen should by rights be sent direct to Wood Coffill's here in Sydney. (for those forum members who are out of towner's...that's an old school Funeral Director, they've been around since Rids was a young bloke and that was back in the days of the Old Testament) They have offices in Ryde, Dulwich Hill and Kingsford...the latter being by far & away the closest to the airport. :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:.
Great news if RNRH is coming!!!! :)
EliteQuote:
Originally Posted by eliteblood
I Know what you mean but to have access to the many an varied stallions we have presently is great for all types of breeders. I have a small share in a couple of T/bred mares and can't believe the discounts/deals that are currently on the go. These deals are given by a phone call or a visit to the 'head' of the stud and a bit of old fashioned negotiation.
Hey Don C & Eliteblood,
These days we are spoilt for choice BIG-TIME.
If you really want to frighten yourselves see if you can dig up an old Oz/NZ Sire's Guide from somewhere around 10-15 years ago.Absolute horror story stuff. Makes Stephen King's book 'Pet Sematary' look like a children's betime story.
Yes Triple V, the change in stallion quality is beyond what anyone could have imagined 15 years ago. For example,Quote:
Originally Posted by triplev123
2010 NH Leading 2YO Sire
Art Major
Rocknroll Hanover
Bettors Delight
2010 NH Leading 3YO Sire
Rocknroll Hanover
Art Major
Artsplace
2011 NH Leading 2YO Sire (to date)
Art Major
Dragon Again
Rocknroll Hanover
2011 NH Leading 3YO Sire (to date)
Bettors Delight
Rocknroll Hanover
Art Major
Art Major, Bettors Delight and Rocknroll Hanover are the hottest sires in the world at this moment and it is an incredibly exciting time to be breeding. The quality of our product has greatly improved in the last decade as better and better stallions have become available and it can only continue.
I look forward to the day when we are breeding our own world champions and our own stallions so that the tap is shut on the vast sums of money currently leaving Australia and New Zealand in the form of stallion purchases and service fees.
Couldn't agree more Eliteblood.
If there's just one thing we MUST do in terms of following in the footsteps of the Monkeys On Horseback is concerned...it is to keenly focus upon the production of our own sires.
This of course MUST go hand in hand with a re-working of the 3yo schedule so that it can assist in this regard. When I was out at Menangle for the NSW Breeders Challenge Finals, a well known NSW identity made the point that we currently do not have a big $ race for 3yo colts over the Mile anywhere in Australia, a race which would afford aspiring stud colts the opportunity to scoot a 1:50 or sub trip. I hadn't considered this aspect up until he mentioned it. He has a VERY good point, IMO.
interesting point triplev, personally i wouldnt know a single stallions times but i understand it would help the marketing, i think they'd have to move a race to a mile rather then build a new one to carry over the prestige of the race... personally i think they should sort out the derby timings first, so maybe we could see a horse win all of them again just like courage did and really make a statement as a 3 yr old...
Hello VVV,Quote:
Originally Posted by triplev123
What an excellent point ! With the talk regarding the limited gene pool in the US, which is one of the reasons Christian Cullen dipped his hoof in the water over there, I think this is a great idea. If we want to have an Australasian stallion serve in the US a fast time next to their name is an absolute must. Also being by a US sire like Art Major would not hurt either.
Would love to see Menagle have a version of the Little Brown Jug with heats and final on the same day. Little Brown Jug winners seem to have done pretty well down under. To me a win in this race proves you have the speed & the stamina. Also it would not hurt the chances of getting a good book of mares for this racewinning colt.
there wont be an australian/new zealand sire to ever make it as a top line horse in the US in my life time
You are probably right. I am more interested in australian/new zealand colts being held in the same regard locally as those from the northern hemisphere and competing with them as sire prospects down here. Hopefully you will see a shift in that regard during your lifetime.Quote:
Originally Posted by ITMQ
Think of the additional value that a well bred yearling colt would have.
Think of the additional money circulating throughout our industry as opposed to being lost to the USA. How much money was "lost" to our industry in securing RNR Hanover to stand down here? How much money was lost to our industry through services to SBSW last year ?
So You Think !
A very well performed Kiwi Bred - Aussie raced thoroughbred. If he can do well in Europe he would prove the point that it can be done. Being by the English stallion High Chaparral, and with an excellent record has not hurt his chances of being a shuttle stallion. At least the new owners paid a lot of money believing that he would be a success. Seems the thoroughbred people overseas acknowledge that we can breed a good horse or two.
For a Aussie / Kiwi stallion standardbred to be given a chance in the US they must have a very fast time next to their name. Also being by a US sire would be almost essential. They would also need to go over in their prime to show that they can handle US conditions. All it would take would be one stallion to get the ball rolling !
You mention Courage Under Fire ITMQ, someone in the US tried to by Courage for 3 million as a 3 year old. With his speed and stamina he could have scorched around a few of those US tracks.Quote:
Originally Posted by ITMQ
His only fault from what I have heard is that his lack of size would have gone against him with a few breeders.
I think for the foreseeable future you're right on the money there ITMQ...but in saying that I'm really not that concerned about Oz bred & performed sires going over to the US & CAN to try and make their name so much as I'd just dearly love to see the best of the Oz bred & performed sire prospects getting their chances at stud here in Oz...and in doing so greatly restrict to perhaps one day verging on ceasing the annual flow of $$$ out of Oz and into the pockets of US syndicates in exchange for access to their latest siring prospects. Once I used to think that was a pipedream. These days however it is so close to becoming a reality that I can damned near taste it.Quote:
Originally Posted by ITMQ
Maybe a son of this colt? He goes Ok. :cool:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uEZkg...layer_embedded
We will never have a Northern Hemisphere rated stallion they just don't rate our horses in that light. We have plenty of good local stallions worth a go but on that we have to patronize them, how many import stallions would tick all the boxes in your eyes for our top level racing when you really look at them?
G'day Nat,
I'm not at all concerned if US & CAN Breeders happen to rate Southern Hemisphere bred sire prospects or they do not.
I'm more interested in the best of our 2yo and 3yo colts having the opportunity to prove their comparitive worth by racing for good $$$ over the Mile on our tracks and under our conditions.
I wouldn't say we have plenty of local breds that are worth a go, at least not to this point in time anyway. In due course however, with the quality of sires available to us now, that is a situation which will most definitely change.
On this general subject, the Breeder duplicity that exists here is verging upon inexplicable.
The very thing that they demand of the imported US/CAN bred sires, i.e. superior juvenile performance (& by that I mean top end 2yo & 3yo wins) is that which they do not demand of our own homebred sires.
Instead they paradoxically seem to prefer proven Aged performers, successful in the ID ranks & so on, horses which have been successful in that which is basically the equivalent to the Aged ranks in the Northern Hemisphere. :confused::confused::confused::confused::confused: :confused:
Added to this is the rather curious fact that, in turn, imported US/CAN bred sires that did not race particularly successfully at 2yrs & 3yrs but were instead Aged performers...are invariably viewed by so many of those very same Breeders with quite significant suspicion.
Hey Triplev123
Definitely not just our juvenile racing need the right opportunities our whole racing calendar needs to be brought into line the one thing those yank have over us their horses have every opportunity to earn the big dollar and race the prestige events our states and countries bodies to often get into a pissing competition and cut each others throat. events like Breeders Crown, The Harness Jewels, Bathurst Gold Crown and Breeders Challenge are helping drive the interest in breeding and racing 2yld-3yld and 4yld.
G'day Nat,
That 3yo colts having no opportunity to step it out over the Mile in an Open Age Classic format really spun my head.
I have to confess to not having even considered the lack of such a race as being of any great importance up until it was mentioned to me at Menangle. Couched in the terms that it was to me then and in keeping with the general thrust of this thread however, it is vitally important that the situation be rectified.
It would be an extremely productive long-term move for the Australian Breeding Industry should for instance the fellas with the fastest track in the Southern Hemisphere, the NSWHRC and the wonderful Menangle , either institute a race or adapt an existing race which would afford the aspiring 3yo stud colts the opportunity to post marks down around or sub 1:50. As part of all that also I'm still very keen on the idea of both a 2yo & 3yo Grand Circuit racing in conjunction with the Aged horses...or at the very least a very clearly and very well defined, thoughtfully programmed 3yo Grand Circuit.
Make the Derby a true classic heats and final over the mile and give the race the true recognition it so rightly deserves our family has bred i think it is up to 6 or 7 Derby winers now incl 2 on the one day trotter's as well and both by the same sire Dad tells me their is no prouder feeling than to win a Derby as it used to be the pinnacle aside from the Inter he reckons it's a bigger thrill than breeding an Inter winner. For each state i feel the Derby has lost it's prestige in the latter years
personally i want a derby win over any other race... but i disagree over the distance, have it over 2600-2800m and have the best horse standing at the end, not the best drawn
Flat out pressure on all the way, lead from gate to wire Mile racing for a 3yo colt is going to be a far greater test of his stamina than any 2600-2800m could ever be.
There needs to be a balance and to suit lets just say we don't run the sprint events at Penrith we need racing over the sprint trip to see who is the fastest and over the derby distance 2300 or more if we key hole our juvenile events we wile breed for type and then the stayer would go by the wayside. In saying that I have reservations that Sushi Sushi would be so dominant if we just raced the mile, 2yld racing to me should be over the sprint trip and then 3yld is a graduation year where they branch out over the distance.
Your part about stayers would go by the way side .A good sprinter has to be able to stay to hold the high speed for the sprint races case in point Smoken Up, Blacks a Fake and Karloo Mick all tough and can run a quick mile when needed ITMQ can stay to a lesser extent but finishes best with a sit over the longer journey but over the mile a true sprint horseQuote:
Originally Posted by nat
yeah maybe, but if a good horse draws to lead over a mile good luck even getting into the race... over a distance they have to have a breather at some point and that is when a poorly drawn horse can get into the race ie sushi sushi declared royal verdict on in the vic derby during a 46 lead timeQuote:
Originally Posted by triplev123
soooo pretty much i mean a long distance not as a stamina test but as a suitable distance for good horses to be put into the race
Hi winston
Three exceptional horses that took more than several year ofconditioning to run their personal bests and off the top of my head didnt get 2yld or 3yld of the year between them ( I stand to be corrected LOL), look at it this way a juvenile that cannot sprint early 2 wasted and costly years what happens to them the knackery not many super star juviniles make it to the big show look how thoroughbred are they breed for sprinter and stayers nearly two different industries in their programming to the firstrace
Hi NatQuote:
Originally Posted by nat
I agree with you there, myself i would like to see more racing for 3yr old's over the 2300m at Menangle. You often see in N.Z that there 3yr old's race over the longer trip more than our's.
Fair enough. It all depends on the track. That's why I suggested earlier that any such race should obviously go forward at Menangle. There is a BIG difference between Menangle and Melton in terms of the way the barriers play.Quote:
Originally Posted by smithy
Menangle is wide open spaces 10 across the front 1400m & if you have the required early speed & want to get forward at the start from out wide then you can do so. Barrier draws, especially inside slots, are nowhere near as much of an advantage there as they are at other smaller tracks.
In fact, having only fairly recently focussed on the comparitive waste of time that conducting PBD sex races out there is, drawing 1-2-3 is actually a statistical disadvantage...it's getting off the topic by a fair bit but I have found that drawing any horse, let alone the fillies/mares being drawn to the inside posts against their male counterparts, actually handicaps them rather than giving them a 'lift'.
On the other hand, Melton is a narrow track with 6 across the front with trailers off the back line. Draw the front from 4 and inside and Bob's your Uncle, drawn outside of the front 5-6 or off the back & especially 8-9-10..then you're in the hands of the Philistines...but, and again as an aside, a PBD sex condition down there actually achieves what it was designed to achieve.
A Big $ Mile race for 3yo colts, 10 across the front at Menangle, is exactly what the Doctor ordered if we're looking to go down the road of producing our own locally bred Sires.
No point whatsoever in continuing to deny them the opportunity of racing over the Mile in a prestige event & putting a genuine speed badge against their name...by way of continuing to race them over distances of 2300m etc.
I'm not saying dispense with the longer events, rather I'm saying that we should give them at least ONE opportunity to rip over the mile and take a speed badge that is at least some way comparable to that worn by their US/CAN bred counterparts/competition. Currently, this is not possible.
G'day Mango,Quote:
Originally Posted by mango
I've got to come back to the whole point of sending them over the Mile at Menangle in the first place. How exactly does more 2300m racing for 3yo colts in any way serve to highlight, as compared to their Nthn Hemisphere counterparts, the lot of the locally bred 3yo colt aspiring to a subsequent Stud career? There are of course any number of opportunities for 3yo colts to race over distances in excess of 1 Mile in the Southern Hemisphere, there are any number of big $ Group 1 events.
To my knowledge there is not so much as a single big $ Mile race that would allow those same 3yo colts to earn a speed badge around 1:50 or perhaps sub and I am absolutely certain the best of our 3yo colts could post such times. We've got big $ racing over the Mile for 2yos (APG), for 4yos (Chariots, Taylor Mile etc) and for Aged horses (Miracle Mile)...but where is the opportunity for the 3yos?
The Derbys position on the harness racing mantle place has been shaky for a long while. IMO it fell off and shattered about 10 years ago but I can understand how some peoples opinions differ. I can see clearly how a mile race for 3 yo could greatly benefit the season. Mile racing at the top end always throws up an interesting race especially at Menangle. It is not an option though to run a derby over a mile because to me that goes against what a derby is about. While the derbys need desperate CPR I wouldn't want to be the director bringing them back to a mile. Create an entire new race ala Len Smith and watch the positive feedback roll in. Don't curse it with the derby name!
victoria derby, great northern derby still have the most prestige of any races for 3 yr olds easily!
a fast mile on its own is meaningless, the little brown jug isn't just the time on its own, its that they raced in against the absolute company best several times in one day... to build something like that in aussie would need prizemoney around half a mill plus heat prizemoney
Hey Triple
I was meaning mid wk at Menangle i went off track a bit. Sometime's mile racing can be boring but i do agree with you a big $$$$ race for 3yr old's over the mile would be good.