havent you guys watched 'the wire'
but seriously i hope everyone involved is given life
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havent you guys watched 'the wire'
but seriously i hope everyone involved is given life
[VVV] Indeed they can and then some.Quote:
Originally Posted by mightymo
If they gather the required evidence the NSW Organised Crime Squad is going to go these blokes like a dose of Epsom Salts.
Of course, the single most wonderful piece of legislation we have here in this State is the Confiscation Of Proceeds Of Crime Act, 1989.
Being the Law abiding..although thirsting for justice to be done and to be seen to be done...citizen that I am, I have always been rather fond of Part 1, 3. of that Act which states as follows...
3 Principal objectsThe principal objects of this Act are:-Knock Knock.(a) to deprive persons of the proceeds of, and benefits derived from, the commission of offences against certain laws of the State, and
(b) to provide for the forfeiture of property used in or in connection with the commission of such offences, and
(c) to enable law enforcement authorities effectively to trace such proceeds, benefits and property, and
(d) to provide for the enforcement in the State of forfeiture orders, pecuniary penalty orders and restraining orders made in respect of offences against the laws of other States.
Who's there?
-NSW Sherriff's Office. Where would you like us to park the truck mate? Don't want to mess up all that lovely Sir Walter.
that league investigation is still going, i bet the money involved is nothing compared to this trots rort
These bloke would have been smart enough to cover their assets and not purchase anything once the rorting started because the Confiscation Of Proceeds Of Crime Act, 1989 only covers assets obtained from the crime so nothing will be confiscated .
Cash is an asset.Quote:
Originally Posted by ringman
yes i am aware it is but it will be well hidden im sure of that.Quote:
Originally Posted by aussiebreno
Hubby could do with a new suit. Armani does wonders for a beer gut.
Armani suits are not that expensive & it is not a good enough reason to Lie, cheat and steal from all harness racing participants. SOB's
A lot of NSWelshmen seen to have small mans syndrome of late, lets hope they can get over it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ringman
[VVV] Ahuh. Well Trooper, while this may well come as a shock to you however...your grasp of the Law appears to be roughly equivalent to the handle that a Wombat could be expected to have on the subject of Nuclear Physics.
Is that so legal eagle hmmmmmmmmmm well let me bring you up to date with the Law as it stands today. they cant take a thing unless its proven to have been obtained with the proceeds of crime.Quote:
Originally Posted by triplev123
you see under your laws if a bloke wins 10 mil in a lottery they can take it through the legal system if the bloke is in this rort.sorry only if they can proove the money he purchased the ticket with is proceeds of crime and of course he gets found guilty.
For a square head you profess to know a lot about law hmmmmmmmmm sure your not a part of this rort ?
there is an exception for drug cases
i'm with ringman here, these blokes will have nothing substantial to be taken even if they do prove how they got it
for all the money he supposedly spent on suits he never bothered to shell out to get them tailored properly
$100 is $100. It doesn't have to be the same $100 note; just a $100 note.Quote:
Originally Posted by ringman
Ringman writes [For a square head you profess to know a lot about law hmmmmmmmmm sure your not a part of this rort ?]
I'd like to apologise to the forum for giving that imbecile Oxygen by way of responding. I'll not make the same mistake again.
yeah but if they have 50 cents in assets and in the bank...and 20k no one can find, then they are in the clear for civil cases, you can't bleed a stoneQuote:
Originally Posted by aussiebreno
Amen to that , triple. I just ignore that flamer's posts completely.Quote:
Originally Posted by triplev123
oh dear she(VVV) has thrown the rattle out of the pram yet again:p when someone posts facts not fiction about law.win lose or draw i am with you all !!! give them life.but somehow i know it will happen again as it has for decades.Quote:
Originally Posted by triplev123
How far away are we from realistically having some people charged or asked to front inquiries? I realise it's a delicate balancing act - the need for everything to be done correctly against the need for some swift action to be taken to prevent wrong doers continuing to prosper. If I recall in the CJ Gleeson case at some point he was actually stood down and the horses all transferred to other trainers. I remember backing a friendless Coloresque at 7-1 on a Friday night at his first run for DR Hancock prior to his unfortunate demise.
Coloresque eh? Geeze. There's a blast from the past. Years later by absolute chance I met the person formally known as Paul Skinner in of all places a Pub at Drummoyne. Thought he looked familiar but for quite a while I couldn't place his face. He was still betting on Harness Racing as I recall.
Just to put this whole saga into perspective in comparison to Chris Gleeson and the Coloresque scandal back in the mid 90's, think of this. Gleeson deliberatley pulled his horse with a fake gear problem in one race, and backed the opposition, the only people this would have had a detrimental effect on would be the punters who backed Coloresque in that one race, and the owners of the horse (and thats if they did not know what was going on). Gleeson was swiftly made an example of and rubbed out for 'life' (I believe his disqualification was overturned last year, some 14 years after the event).
And now:
We have several trainers and drivers, bribing officials to get 'the green light' so they will not be swabbed after a particular race, and proceed to 'juice' their runners and plunge on the horses in those races. If there were 10 runners in the race, it has a detrimental effect to all the owners of the 9 other horses, all the trainers of the 9 other horses and all punters who backed the 9 other horses. Now thats just from one race, this has happened in multiple races over many, many months, so add all that up. And what are HRNSW doing now it's all come out into the open? They are sheltering those involved, and they are actually letting them continue to participate in our sport. It is an absolute joke. I believe HRNSW would be wise to hit this nail on the head as soon as possible, name and shame these cheats, rub them out and worry about the ramifications later. The longer this drags on the more and more honest people will keep walking away from our sport.
here here rainmaker, couldnt agree with you more. Stop this pussyfooting around and start taking action
Agree!!!!!!!!!!!!
Thats the best post ive seen on here well done RainmakerQuote:
Originally Posted by The Rainmaker
I agree too. They made some pretty strong statements about what they were going to do early on that were encouraging but its all gone off the boil a bit recently. Some actions to back up the words would do wonders for everyone.
I too would absolutely love to have these bastards f***ed off forever and a day. The initial wait will, hopefully, be worth it. But HRNSW can't go naming and getting rid of blokes. Innocent to proven guilty is the law.
Not only that, but if they don't follow procedure these guys will get off due to technicalities/natural justice arguments.Quote:
Originally Posted by aussiebreno
You do it this way Rainmaker, these people will be back within 5 minutes - THAT is the ramification. You can't just be a bull at the gate and worry about ramifications later!! Then they well and truly won't be "rubbed out for life" as you put it :)Quote:
name and shame these cheats, rub them out and worry about the ramifications later.
Some of you people have absolutely no idea about the legal course that needs to be taken. To worry about the ramifications later will only serve to ensure those that have gutted our sport will continue to remain participants. The days of dishing out disqualifications as in the Gleeson example are long gone! Today, more than ever, people know or think they know their rights. Their propensity to appeal penalties is second nature and all one has to do is look at the list of disqualifications and suspension that have been upheld at appeal over the last 2 years.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Rainmaker
HRNSW have done the only thing possible by involving the NSW police. There are numerous criminal allegations that require investigation and the most reasonable and logical thing to do is to wait until they have been resolved before HRNSW takes actions in the form of disqualifications etc. For Sam and co to jump in now and deal with participants runs the extreme risk of jeopardising evidence that police require to successfuly prosecute those suspected of criminal actions. It's time some of you moved into the 21st Century and actually took note of reality rather than firing from the hip without thought!
Mark
I have not read this thread completely, so this could have already been stated. HRNSW should announce that they will update the public every week or every two weeks on the progress of the case,
it would not matter if they could not inform us with any new information, but it would be a comforting reminder for many people to know that they are still working towards the end of this mess.
Let me start by saying there may no longer need to any further posts from the voice with" aussiebreno Flashing Red and Mark Groatto" all making so much sense.Quote:
Originally Posted by justdoit
I have a news flash for you Justdoit, it was just on a week ago that HRNSW warned off a driver Robbie Byrnes for failing to comply with directions in relation to this investigation.
Now I may be naive to the ways of the world but for me that is pretty comforting reminder that they are still working towards the end.
For those that do not know "warned Off" is the same as a disqualification except it has no expiry date so in real terms it is like getting life. pretty serious penalty and there have been two now since this all started.
I would have to check but I doubt justice was that swift with anyone in the "Coloresque" investigation.
They. that is HRNSW are doing a sterling job.
Your to good for me Voiceofreason,
My mistake, I should have put "it would be a comforting reminder for many the general public to know that they are still working towards the end of this mess".
It could also be naive of me:) in thinking that the masses only see the headlines.
With the greatest of respect the headlines show very clearly that the investigation continues full swing.Quote:
Originally Posted by justdoit
At this point in time considering the obvious complexities of this case any more information in the public arena may well work against the investigative process.
Remember after all it was the NSW police task force that put the gag order on HRNSW in relation to their media statements.
I agree that the police taskforce should take as long as they need to gather evidence against all those involved. However, HRNSW came out a couple of months ago, saying they will drop names, wielding the stick so to speak, and ready to take action, and now they've gone all quiet on the matter, as though hopefully it's going to go away. We have a driver in his 20's who admitted guilt in regards to the cheating, and apparently another leading driver as well who has already enlisted top legal aid. If these blokes have come forward and claim to have participated in the rorting, why cannot they be named and shamed, they admitted guilt for god sake. Instead they're allowed to continue participating, basically spitting in the face of every honest trainer when they show up to the track on race night.
My issue here is how quiet HRNSW has gone on this matter, after coming out all guns blazing before. If they are seriously doing something about it, I believe they should be making weekly media statements to inform all honest participants where they are up to with proceedings and how far along the matter has come etc. whilst keeping the gag order in mind.
Why don't we asume that the police have a better idea than us on how to successfully conduct an investigation
I've given things more thought since my last post and in retrospect I suppose a desire for vengeance, for want of a better word, got in the way of good judgement. The dual investigations should take as long as is required to prove guilt and, hopefully, punishments meted out will fit the crime. This being racing I am sure that there is a whole lot of other stuff happening behind the scenes to complicate matters as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by coldshot
The people at HRNSW might want to say more however if their hands are tied, then they are tied.
Voiceofreason, I do see your point.
Does anyone else get a cold shiver when it is mentioned that NSW police are investigating this????
Voiceofreason, I understand your point.
Does anyone else get a cold shiver when the NSW police are mentioned as being the ones investigating this??????????'
Well said Flashing, Breno, VOR & Mark C.
Unfortunately legally dispensed justice is rarely if ever as swift as the wronged parties would like it to be... but in this case, while it will certainly take considerable time I believe that it will ultimately be very extensive and long lasting.
The comprehensive lack of understand of the Law displayed in some of the comments to this thread is quite astounding to say the least.
The fact is that if every single t is not crossed and every single i is not dotted, that sets up immediate grounds for lack of due process/denial of natural justice appeals...and this extends to both HRNSW and the NSW Police.
People should not allow themselves to forget that it is the Organised Crime Squad that is on the case here. A few blokes I went to school with are no Detectives and a couple are Federal Police and those guys in Organised Crime are the hard arses of the hard arses.This is not a rising 2yrs in the Force local General Duties Constable taking a statement over the counter at your local Police Station. I want a reckoning as badly as anyone but we need to sit tight and let the fellas do their job.
I'm well versed in the law and understand the processes that have to be followed here and I'm just as well aware of the need to follow procedure from a Harness Racing rules point of view as well. As I said earlier it's a balancing act in terms of both sides because while it lingers on the integrity of the industry from an external point of view continues to take a hammering. If you haven't had someone from outside the industry ask you exactly what is going on then you are in the minority. When it does break - it's going to be bigger than the now defunct Ben Hur.Quote:
Originally Posted by triplev123
It's quite clear that some big players in this are already "lawyering up" in an attempt to extend their tenure in the sport.
This is to my knowledge the first investigation where the police have been involved for a long time. I am aware of ICAC allegations and personally I thought the Coloresque incident was a no brainer for prosecution but for whatever reason it never went ahead.
In part I have to agree with Ringman in some regard. I have seen many rorts played out over my time in the sport, the middle 90's in Sydney was a low time, form guides became irrelevant, the key was whether or not the stewards were testing for TC02 on the said night. Whilst they may not be as sophisticated as the current one, a rort is still a rort. It takes a real eye to know when something's off and to have that eye you have to have some participant knowledge.
On the flipside, Sam Nati is as good an operator as they come and his knowledge in the area is invaluable. Information is king in the punting business. He would make a great Steward and I suppose as CEO that is what he is. His past (as a Punter) is largely irrelevant. I remember being in the ring with him one night at HP - we knew one was off (based upon the activity in the ring) and just shook our heads.
It's a hard one but I reckon we need to get away from the matey relationships between stewards / administrators and participants that have blighted the industry in the past. There will be some very embarrassing times ahead when poster kids are outed in this rort.
They need life bans and full prosecution - nothing less.
I think everyone here is on the same page, we all want what is best for the sport in regards to this matter. The way I see it is there are two different opinions here, there is the ‘correct opinion’, which is let the investigation take its course no matter how long it takes, innocent til proven guilty etc. And that’s fine, I don’t disagree with that. And there is also the ‘dudded opinion’, which is doing what’s right for the honest participants out there, whom feel duded and violated, whom want this matter dealt with as soon as possible, and for those involved to be named and shamed, of which there are many people actively involved in the sport who continue to face these alleged rorters and cheats everytime they turn up to Menangle on a Tuesday afternoon, Penrith on a Thursday night and Menangle on a Saturday night still allowed to participate. The fact there are drivers out there who have admitted guilt in the rorts and have not been stood down or publicly named is beyond me. I’d like to make the following comments on the matters thus far:
1. Mark Vallender and Robbie Byrnes ‘Warned Off’
These two named who failed to hand over phone records, and then warned off all racecourses, but they cannot name those currently co-operating with the investigation? Wouldn’t this make those who are co-operating with the investigation look less suspect than those who were warned off? The harness racing public have a right to know who is under investigation without any fingers being pointed until proven guilty if there is such evidence.
2. Legal Representation
The Sydney Morning Herald mention two cases. It mentions a “warned off” driver will be enlisting legal representation to try and overturn the ban. The other one is a leading driver allegedly involved in the rorts has employed one of Sydney’s finest lawyers for his case. The way I see it, if one bloke handed over his phone records, and the other abided by the rules there would be no problem. But now we have such cases that those deliberately breaking the rules enlist high priced lawyers to get them off on technicalities, therefore getting no penalty imposed, and they return to the sport and continue to suck the game dry as they have done in years past. As we all know, legal representation isn’t cheap, so the question should be asked how many participants who are charged and fight their case with high priced lawyers are funding it with the proceeds of their months of rorting to actually get off their charges? Food for thought.
3. Police Strikeforce
I can see this turning into a big ‘White Elephant’, a lot of time and cost for nothing. How many people at the end of this are going to end up in Gaol or with assets and cash repossessed? My guess is none. Supposedly HRNSW were privately investigating the disgraced stewards for 6 months before the infamous day where they ‘tendered their resignations’. Sam Nati then came out and said, “Heads will roll, Houses will be lost” promising swift action, the naming of names etc. This was going on two months ago, and now since HRNSW has gone all quiet and left it to the special strikeforce to work through the investigation. I can understand if there was a gag order from NSW Police, but the honest participants out there want to know that you are keeping on fighting the fight, and that we are going to get answers soon. However, my question is, if HRNSW thought criminal conduct was going on during their initial 6 month internal investigation, why weren't police contacted to set up a secret strikeforce while these stewards were still employed to catch them and the associated trainers and drivers red handed, before the rorts became public knowledge? I cannot see how this strikeforce in place now can pin too much on those involved after the events. I get the feeling the police are going to come up empty handed when HRNSW could already be dealing with these people under their own rules.
At the end of the day the honest participants want the truth and we all want the right result here. I just hope it all comes out sooner rather than later because many participants are becoming impatient.
And this time let's hope a LIFE ban will actually mean LIFE , not with some clause to let them crawl back from under their rock at some time in the future and be given a license again because of "family circumstances". No second chances this time EVER. http://www.postsmile.net/img/20/2021.gifQuote:
Originally Posted by Mister JayKO
Getting legal representation does not mean someone is guilty of anywrong doing. I would never, ever go to an appeal, hearing, whatever, without legal representation, no matter how small the infraction is. IMHO harness racing hearings, appeals etc have A LOT to be desired in regards to due process/natural justice and I would want to make sure that those prosecuting me are playing within the rules. Has absolutely nothing to do with guilt or innocence.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Rainmaker