http://www.harness.org.au/news-artic...?news_id=17406
Pretty good imo. It's pretty much alluded the NZ Cup winner will get an invite so hopefully that happens in the future.
Don't know why they are persisting with clause G after this year though.
http://www.harness.org.au/news-artic...?news_id=17406
Pretty good imo. It's pretty much alluded the NZ Cup winner will get an invite so hopefully that happens in the future.
Don't know why they are persisting with clause G after this year though.
Certainly better Brenno, however I reckon clause c) could have given themselves 3 discretionary entries, might not want use all three but the option would be there.Quote:
Originally Posted by aussiebreno
Hopefully not! Pick the best two horses. I don't think the NZ Cup should be seen as a heat.Quote:
Originally Posted by aussiebreno
Gee I hope notQuote:
Originally Posted by aussiebreno
How could you hope the NZ Cup winner would get an automatic start after the disgraceful performance of Terror To Love last year , can someone remind Brendan were he finished .
Guaranteeing the winner of a 2 mile stand start race a place in 1mile mobile is so stupid it begs belief.
The MM is a sprint race the NZ CUP is a staying and sure there have been plenty of great horses in the past that can perform just as well at both distances ,their are certainly a lot of good horses that can't.( last year being a perfect example) Can you imagine the Melbourne Cup winner being given an automatic invite to the Oakleigh Plate.
Iv'e gone back and read all the post on this thread and I can't believe the PUSH for a horse who virtually had no mile form ( Terror To Love) to be included in front of one of the best mile horses we have ever seen (Smoken Up)
I notice all these experts have been very quiet about this subject since the MM.
Well Brendan. Leigh, any comments now.???
It says if travel is a concern; I think NZ and WA horses would get the first look in. Most NZ Cup have been invited in the past and acquitted themself well.Quote:
Originally Posted by Just Saying
In Harness racing the different distances mean a hell of a lot less than in galloping and the M Cup, Oakleigh Plate suggestion was ridiculous - they have virtually 2 different breeding industries and breed some horses to sprint and other horses to stay. We don't do that at all and the form in harness racing pretty much correlates over all distances.Quote:
Originally Posted by A BIT DUSTY
Terror To Love had virtually no form? Winner of NZ Cup beating Smoken Up and then 2nd in the qualifying race; beating Lisagain and Karloo Mick.
3 back pegs is starting to be the place to be. Although Villagem hasn't had much luck at the barriers he is still to win a race since flying home for 3rd from 3 pegs. Karloo Mick is in the same predicament.
Tell me whats better form. Winning the NZ Cup or being beat by Say Gday Lombo?
Running 2nd beaten 8m or running 9th beaten 25m?
Lisagain ran 2nd in a the Coca Cola Amatil but still the failure in the Cordina should have put a line through it.
Terror To Love obviously went well, well below its best to be beaten 40m. The run the week before tells you it is a much better horse than that. So good on HRNSW for the new travel condition!
P.S I was cheering for Karloo Mick once he loomed in the Miracle Mile, I have nothing against him, but had any other horse had his form going into the race I don't think it would have been selected.
Quote:
Originally Posted by aussiebreno
Brendan if you look again I said no mile form , To me a 1.58 best winning time is not sufficient form to get an invite.
You are right of course about the two codes being different and the Melbourne Cup, Oakliegh Plate ref was just to make a point.
The reason I don't believe you should use a stand start 2 mile race to invite MM runners goes much deeper than that.
What about a Bleeder that is struggling for form in mobile races , lobs 3 the fence in the NZ cup and gets a split late and wins , what chance does it have in the MM (when it's got to come off a fast gate) and I actually think that could be a factor in T T L this year.( just my own observation)
Over the years there have been plenty of very good horses that look like world beaters sitting back of a slow pace and can unleash a sensational last 400mtrs , but when the speed is on all the way they don't get sighted. That's why I believe it should up to the HRNW panel to use their discretion with a race that is so different to the MM
They can't get it right with the discretion picks though. Make Mine Cullen, Rohan Home etc in recent years.Quote:
Originally Posted by A BIT DUSTY
There is nothing stopping an out of form horse getting an easy run and winning one of the other lead ups either. Yes those other lead ups are over the mile but still the point stands.
I'm not calling for the NZ Cup to be an auto invite. But the way it was written this year I think people assumed the NZ Cup would all but get an invite and that's my main gripe. TTL wasn't going as badly as you wish to suggest. As it was he definetely earnt a spot. Now this year where it says travel I think the NZ Cup winner gets even more certainty. That is better than being in limbo land.
If you owned Terror To Love, after beating Smoken Up in a Group1 grand circuit race you would have to be confused when Smoken Up then got an invite the next day and you didn't. I'm not begrudging Smoken Up an invite, he certaintly deserved one, but TTL connections would have been absolutely filthy and wondering if they'd shagged one of the NSWHRC director wives in the hours they couldn't recall when drinking up after the Cup victory.
Quote:
Originally Posted by aussiebreno
Brendan even the Kiwis don't agree with you on this one.
I especially like Michael Guerins comment about Terror To Love having only competed in Stand Starts races so far this season http://www.nzherald.co.nz/racing/new...ectid=10766089
The horse earnt a place anyway. I think that's evidence enough he should have been invited.
Geurin was basically saying it wasn't a issue the NSWHRC didn't like Kiwis, it was an issue there was only 2 discretionary spots and Smoken Up and ITMQ deserved them and the lead races were in place well before the NZ Cup was run and won. Of course those two were in the pecking order above TTL; but if you owned TTL you would still be thinking wtf. The stand start was an after thought near the end of his article.
Really don't get why you posted that article anyway. If you value Geurins opinion that much he says TTL was virtually assured of a spot he just had to catch a plane to Sydney whilst he also says Raglan (the Newcastle Mile winner) did not deserve to start in a Miracle Mile.
Geurin also says the race experience at Menangle would do the horse good. It obviously didn't because his run in the Cordina was well above his run in the Miracle Mile.
But if you value Geurins opinion that much.....well I don't know what to say.
[QUOTE=aussiebreno;14958]The horse earnt a place anyway. I think that's evidence enough he should have been invited.
Geurin was basically saying it wasn't a issue the NSWHRC didn't like Kiwis, it was an issue there was only 2 discretionary spots and Smoken Up and ITMQ deserved them and the lead races were in place well before the NZ Cup was run and won. Of course those two were in the pecking order above TTL; but if you owned TTL you would still be thinking wtf. The stand start was an after thought near the end of his article.
What sort of lame comment is " But if you value Geurins opinion that much..... This bloke is the highest profile harness media personality in NZ and you want to dismiss him.
Funny I don't seem to remember seeing Brendan Bryce being interviewed on Sky or reading any news paper articles penned by this self appointed harness GURU.
[B] The stand start was an after thought near the end of his article So where a piece of vital information (that would influence a M M invite) is located in a article makes a difference You Crack me up Brendan
Really don't get why you posted that article anyway. If you value Geurins opinion that much he says TTL was virtually assured of a spot he just had to catch a plane to Sydney whilst he also says Raglan (the Newcastle Mile winner) did not deserve to start in a Miracle Mile.
The point I posted that article was to show you that people that are aware of FACTS generally know more about the ins and outs of Miracle Mile selection than an Accountant from Wagga Wagga
Do you think it would not be unreasonable to want to have a look at a horse that had not raced from the Mobile in it's previous 5 strs
Geurin also says the race experience at Menangle would do the horse good. It obviously didn't because his run in the Cordina was well above his run in the Miracle Mile.
Has it dawned on you that it is probably because of the concerns the panel had about T.T.L that resulted in the poor MM run?????????
The horse only racing in Stand Start races is a pretty good indication that he has a problem , they have said come over have a run in a lead up race if all's well we'll give him a start.
I believe having that run out of the gate the week before has busted him ( because of his problem) and that would explain the poor MM run.
[VVV] G'day Denny,Quote:
Originally Posted by A BIT DUSTY
I would have liked to see them take a cut & dried show up or shut up line with the MM.
For any aspiring MM contenders, I believe that participation in the lead up races should be mandatory.
If the excellent $$$ on offer in those lead up races combined with, should they get that far, the fat end of 750k to the winner for the big one is not enough of an enticement for the best of the best to show up a week or two beforehand then you really have to wonder what is.
Rgds
Jaimie
Couldn't agree any more JaimieQuote:
Originally Posted by triplev123
I have always had sympathy for the panel ( except the year they left Our Sir Vancelot out , what the f----k were they thinking) whose job it is to select the field , as it is so hard to line up horses form when they are racing in different states and Country's.
At least if they all come for the lead up races and you know prior what you have to do to get a start it takes all the controversy out of play
Cheers Denny
[QUOTE=A BIT DUSTY;14960][QUOTE=aussiebreno;14958]The horse earnt a place anyway. I think that's evidence enough he should have been invited.
Geurin was basically saying it wasn't a issue the NSWHRC didn't like Kiwis, it was an issue there was only 2 discretionary spots and Smoken Up and ITMQ deserved them and the lead races were in place well before the NZ Cup was run and won. Of course those two were in the pecking order above TTL; but if you owned TTL you would still be thinking wtf. The stand start was an after thought near the end of his article.
What sort of lame comment is " But if you value Geurins opinion that much..... This bloke is the highest profile harness media personality in NZ and you want to dismiss him.
Funny I don't seem to remember seeing Brendan Bryce being interviewed on Sky or reading any news paper articles penned by this self appointed harness GURU. Funny you say that, I have had articles published on Harnesslink thanks for your concern.
Yes Geurin has great qualifications; but that article actually had more things that side with me than what side with you.
[B] The stand start was an after thought near the end of his article So where a piece of vital information (that would influence a M M invite) is located in a article makes a difference You Crack me up Brendan
Most journos make their point towards the start of an article. If you had to choose to read one half of an article for the rest of your life would it be the first half or the second half?
Really don't get why you posted that article anyway. If you value Geurins opinion that much he says TTL was virtually assured of a spot he just had to catch a plane to Sydney whilst he also says Raglan (the Newcastle Mile winner) did not deserve to start in a Miracle Mile.
The point I posted that article was to show you that people that are aware of FACTS generally know more about the ins and outs of Miracle Mile selection than an Accountant from Wagga Wagga
Not that there are any qualifications; but how is a NEW ZEALAND journalist qualified to talk about a race in SYDNEY. I'd be disapointed if Greg Hayes spent more time worrying about the NZ Cup than races in NSW.
Do you think it would not be unreasonable to want to have a look at a horse that had not raced from the Mobile in it's previous 5 strs
No, not unreasonable. Still worthy of an invite despite this though. The Cordina where it ended up getting an invite is proof of this. But in most years past TTL would have been straight in the field and I reckon in most years coming TTL would have been invited straight away.
Geurin also says the race experience at Menangle would do the horse good. It obviously didn't because his run in the Cordina was well above his run in the Miracle Mile.
Has it dawned on you that it is probably because of the concerns the panel had about T.T.L that resulted in the poor MM run?????????
The horse only racing in Stand Start races is a pretty good indication that he has a problem , they have said come over have a run in a lead up race if all's well we'll give him a start.
I believe having that run out of the gate the week before has busted him ( because of his problem) and that would explain the poor MM run.[/QUOTE]
NSWHRC had none such concerns about TTL. They didnt see TTL has a negative. They saw ITMQ and Smoken Up as greater positives. NSWHRC actually came out and said they stuffed up. I think I linked that article earlier in the article.
Now I move to the last line, what I have bolded. So you agree with me on the travel clause; where travelling and starting in a lead up may hinder performance an invite will be issued earlier? Which is why I bumped this thread. Thankyou for wasting my time.
Denny if you want me to agree TTL's run was terrible.Then yes, it was a shocker (and too bad to be true). If you want me to admit I was wrong in thinking he deserved an invite to the MM, don't hold your breath. I'll put this article back up for your benefit. Oh and by the way ITMQ doesn't deserve a run in the MM this year after his Vic Cup run either then! I'm not even sure why we are trawling over this again for anyway. It is an invitation, so every year there is going to be opinions and debate. And unless you work at NSWHR, your opinion and my opinion are worth exactly the same. Even VVV's! For the record ( and it may sound like I'm contradicting myself), but I like the NSWHR having discretionary powers in who they want in the field. It has unearthed some great horses in the past Chokin, Jack Morris to name just a couple. But I still feel TTL should have got an automatic invite on his NZ Cup win.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucky Camilla"s Lovechild
Sacrilege!!Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucky Camilla"s Lovechild
I also agree its probably better black and white without the grey.
The sole reason I'd like ALL of the MM contenders to have had to race in one of the lead up events is that the fans will get to see them more than just a once off, a fly in, fly out basis. These are supposed to be very best horses around & yet we only get see them face off maybe once in a blue moon.
Totally agree. But sometimes that can't be achieved. Some horses just can't back up in a short time frame. And if youv'e got a 250k race in your backyard or a 50k lead up FFA in another country, what are you going to run in? Don't you think TTL running at 100% in the MM is better than what he was when he ran in it?Quote:
Originally Posted by triplev123
G'day Leigh,
For mine, TTL didn't deserve a start based solely on his NZ Cup win however, once he was in, I expected a whole lot more of him than he ultimately delivered. Unless macular degeneration or glaucoma are slowly but surely claiming my eyesight, I believe he is a lot better horse than his MM effort suggested.
On the subject of disappointing efforts...and it's getting off the track a bit but nobody has hit on this bloke thus far...
Race 6, MM night, and Franco Emirate had a wrap on him the size of a block of flats but failed to deliver. Then he went around in the Cranbourne Cup and duly platzed and he did it again in the Victoria Cup. Big, strong looking bugger, seems to get over the ground so well too. What's the deal there I wonder? Not well whilst in Oz? Not as good as he was made out to be? Kiwis...Don C? Any thoughts?
[QUOTE=aussiebreno;14966][QUOTE=A BIT DUSTY;14960]Can anyone out there HELP POOR OLD BRENDAN . I think he is struggling to comprehend simple language.Quote:
Originally Posted by aussiebreno
You are missing the whole crux of my point and that is
On he's currant form he had no mobile form and anyone that has half an idea about horses (and you obviously don't) would have great concern as to why that was so.
So as a precaution the panel has played it safe and said come over and have a run if he goes OK we'll issue with a start.
Now your ridiculous statement about me agreeing with on the travel clause only reinforces my already dwindling opinion of your harness knowledge.( just on that subject Brendan would you please, just for my amusement publish your expertise in training pacers) It actually proved that T T L is a horse that did not have what it takes to compete at that level, at this stage of his career
If my memory is correct he couldn't win the Cordina sprint that was not half as good a field that we had in the M.M Surely that justified the panel's decision.
How about this clanger Brendan
Not that there are any qualifications; but how is a NEW ZEALAND journalist qualified to talk about a race in SYDNEY. I'd be disapointed if Greg Hayes spent more time worrying about the NZ Cup than races in NSW.
Is this the ramblings of a desperate man or what, since when do where you live have any bearing on your knowledge of an Industry , Brendan are you saying wayne bennett wouldn't have a clue about rugby league anywhere else in the world, or Bart Cummings wouldn't know about N.Z racing , if you think Greg Hayes would be more interested in run of the mill races here in Aus while the N.Z cup was on then your are even more ignorant than I had previously thought .( and that is saying something).
This the absolute Icing on the Cake
but that article actually had more things that side with me than what side with you
All your ramblings have been how hard done by Terror To Love was to not get an automatic invite .
All the article is about is why he wasn't hard done by and the reasons for it.
But in your fantasy world you come up with that conclusion THAT'L DO ME
By rights I really shouldn't be happy that Breno's taking the heat from Denny now instead of me, I really shouldn't...but there is a piece of me that is somewhat relieved. I'd be lying if I said it was not so. Now if only Dan would see his way clear to line up on old mate Ringman for a piece, I'd be free as a bird. :rolleyes:
Hey TripleQuote:
Originally Posted by triplev123
You say you would like to see all MM contenders have at least one race in a lead up race so the fan's get to see them more than a once off, if i recall correctly your a fan of the new Inter from 2013 which is the complete oposite which is a fly in fly out basis. May i ask why the difference of opinion on these race's.
I reckon lead up races should stop at 2 weeks prior to the MM. There is only a small percentage of horses that will back up 100% in 7 days after a gut busting mile.
Hi LeighQuote:
Originally Posted by Lucky Camilla"s Lovechild
Please don't for one minute think i'm trying to bag T T L because that is the last thing i'm going to do , he is a very nice horse and i'm sure we'll see a lot more of him in the future.
The whole point I was trying to make ( before getting barraged with garbage from Brendan) was that I could see why they elected to ask them to bring the horse to Syd rather than risk giving a horse that had not raced behind a mobile for so long.
I have read the article you posted and whilst the panel agreed that the format was flawed ( I believe they were referring to only having 2 discretionary spots and as ITMQ and SU were going to get those ) not that T T L was entitled to a spot in front of those two horses.
Also I think the fact that he hadn't really been known as a mile type horse would have influenced their reluctance.
Leigh I think your statement about I T M Q not warranting a start in next years MM is a little cheeky ,so I wont take it too serious.
[QUOTE=A BIT DUSTY;14975][QUOTE=aussiebreno;14966]For one that wants to sprout about the comprehension of 'simple language' I thought you would have been able to at least produce that simple language.Quote:
Originally Posted by A BIT DUSTY
Nevertheless I will continue on topic. You are putting words in the mouth of the NSWHRC. Never did they express queries about his form. They apologised for the criteria and said we are sorry but please show up in the Cordina and we will put you in barring a below par performance. Heck, a shocking performance may have still got him in, it did so for 2 other runners. Your main man Geurin even says something along the lines of this -
"And while nobody will admit to it, Terror To Love was as good as invited last weekend.
His connections would have been told as long as you turn up in Sydney this week and don't disgrace yourself in a lead-up race you will be starting in the Miracle Mile."
You want to question my harness knowledge; yet something I knew straight after the NZ Cup was later confirmed 2.5 weeks later when TTL got his invite. I knew he was good enough. The Cordina 2nd is testament to this. What other 2 horses could have knocked TTL out of a spot?
Geurin is saying TTL wasn't hard done because the conditions (with the 3 auto invites) were set in stone ages ago and basically ITMQ and Smoken Up are better than him. That wasn't my gripe, my gripe was with the conditions. Geurin even says the conditions 'may need tinkering'.
I could dig deeper into the Geurin article, but it actually suits my argument moreso than yours.
Also, Lucky Camillas Lovechild, posted the article I was earlier referring to. Dumesny has admitted things needed to change because it was wrong. Why can't you Denny? Just see something I post and immediately choose to disagree with it because its written by me?
[VVV] Sure. I much prefer to watch the best Open/FFA Class horses around line up and go at it hammer & tongs over the Mile as compared to watching them race under an ID format, be it the traditional one or the new one. That being said, I happen to enjoy juvenile racing more than anything.Quote:
Originally Posted by mango
I knew he was good enough. The Cordina 2nd is testament to this. What other 2 horses could have knocked TTL out of a spot? Ran Last beaten 40 mtrs you sure are a good judge
Dumesny has admitted things needed to change because it was wrong. Dumensy said it was flawed not wrong ( there is a huge difference)
Dumesny said it was up to individual trainers to devise how best to make the field - and if they chose to put all their eggs into one basket and rely on an invitation they set themselves up for disappointment.
"Look at the Butt brothers, they sized up the situation and sent Raglan round in the Newcastle Mile and now he's in. And they chose to run Lisagain in the Coca Cola, in preference to the New Zealand Free-for-all to give him his best chance."
[B]When asked how it looked that the best horse in New Zealand was not in the event, Dumesny replied: "We think we've got the best horse that raced at the cup carnival, Smoken Up. You didn't mention this bit
"There's no way you could put Terror To Love in front of I'm The Mightyquinn and Smoken Up." YOU DIDN'T MENTION THIS BIT EITHER
I could dig deeper into the Geurin article, but it actually suits my argument moreso than yours. There you go of to fantasy world again
Mango makes a good point.
This should imo be the Miracle Mile criteria.
Winners will be exempt from:
Sunshine Sprint QLD
Legends Mile VIC
Chairmans Sprint WA
NZ Cup
NZ FFA
A mile race in each of Tassie and SA
Cordina
8 horse field.
If you are judging TTL by the Miracle Mile run then shame on you.Quote:
Originally Posted by A BIT DUSTY
Flawed/wrong whatever it needed changes. Those flaws would have seen TTL in the field straight away.
I'm not begrudging Smoken Ups or ITMQ invitation....
Fantasy world...never heard of such a world. Do you live there or what? You seem to know a bit about it.
[VVV] I think you're onto something Breno. Which Mile races in Tassie & SA would you nominate? :confused:Quote:
Originally Posted by aussiebreno
Not sure if they have any decent races around that October-Nov period but something could be worked out surely even if NSWHRC had to put up a bit of prizemoney to help them out.Quote:
Originally Posted by triplev123
[QUOTE=aussiebreno;14988]If you are judging TTL by the Miracle Mile run then shame on you.
Flawed/wrong whatever it needed changes. Those flaws would have seen TTL in the field straight away.
I'm not begrudging Smoken Ups or ITMQ invitation....
Fantasy world...never heard of such a world. Do you live there or what? You seem to know a bit about it.[/QUOTE
If you are judging TTL by the Miracle Mile run then shame on you.
SORRY I thought we were talking about the MIRACLE MILE all this time silly me.
Wow VVV. You really hate the Kiwi's don't you?Quote:
Originally Posted by triplev123
[QUOTE=A BIT DUSTY;14992]So miracle mile invites are given out AFTER the miracle mile :OQuote:
Originally Posted by aussiebreno
TTL clearly wasn't at his best in the Miracle Mile. You've already acknowledged this.
Me thinks you just like arguing against me just for the sake of it.
[QUOTE=aussiebreno;14994]Quote:
Originally Posted by A BIT DUSTY
Did I detect a quiver of the bottom lip in that last sentence LOL
You guys cant be serious!Quote:
Originally Posted by triplev123
A Mile race in SA or Tassie, and while i'm at it WA to be a qualifier, giving the winner a 100% start in the MM?????????????
Crikey theyll go at least 1:58.3 in SA and Tassie!!! Come on guys the best hometown horses in those states dont rank in the top 20 in Vic and u wanna give that horse a guaranteed run? (assuming of course an interstater doesnt go over and take the cash, as if they wouldnt)
Take out ITMQ and David Hercules from Perth and what horse would have the balls to travel East, imo, none.
You can't just say one state has better horses when they don't race against each other.Quote:
Originally Posted by Maorisidol
I think even Denny likes this idea because he didn't argue with me about it.
It was only because I thought you were being funny , I didn't think even you could be serious about having heats in SA and Tassie. You just keep on surprising me Brendan.Quote:
Originally Posted by aussiebreno
Bugger. You got me!Quote:
Originally Posted by A BIT DUSTY
I never was good at fishing.
The big wrap for Franco Emirate was generated almost solely by an Oz media guy..I think his name was Hamilton. His info was gotten by a Kiwi called Guerin. Now some people will tell you these guys know their business but they are really just into headline grabbing.Quote:
Originally Posted by triplev123
Franco mirate went to Oz after a career of just 22 starts. He won 14 with 5 minor placings. Most of his racing has been in age group racing. He went to Oz as "a big boofhead" on an education sojourn. He was hardly a goer against his Oz opposition.
He learnt heaps and you can seriously watch for him next time.