Quote:
Originally Posted by The Form Student
The stewards saw the drive your way and I am eating crow.:(Quote:
Originally Posted by clumsy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Form Student
The stewards saw the drive your way and I am eating crow.:(Quote:
Originally Posted by clumsy
Anyone just watch the drives of John O'Shea and Trent Rue in the last at Bathurst. Talking thru my pocket, but at what point do you give up trying to wrest the lead away?
Bathurst Race 9 09/03/2012 10:30 PM
Seriously how can a punter have confidence, If you get a chance watch the race. I'm not one to put down a person though when you have $5000 the win on the $1.60 fav Kenmore Star Nz and the Driver: JOHN O'SHEA puts in a performance like that it makes me wonder......................
Latemail Cam just started a thread about this! Didn't see the race but with a reaction like this will be watching the replay.Quote:
Originally Posted by broncobrad
I'm seriously gutted, talking straight out of my pocket though completely agree at what point do you give up trying to wrest the lead away?Quote:
Originally Posted by broncobrad
Geez latemail, I only had $20 on it and I'm spittin chips!
I had a multi BAILEYS MAGIC NZ / EMMA MONTANA NZ / ICY RIVER / IN HOLIDAY MODE into Kenmore Star. Completely talking through my pocket though those sort of drives need to be punished.....Quote:
Originally Posted by broncobrad
Thats a pretty tough pill to swallow Cameron. I'll just say the same stupid thing I always say, lets see what the stipes say and they never fail to disappoint me.
Sorry, I didn't look at the latest thread, just posted my blurb on the Suss Race thread after reaching directly for the valium.Quote:
Originally Posted by aussiebreno
I just do my money cold with poor decisions on my behalf !Quote:
Originally Posted by broncobrad
We have seen a few of these sort of drives in recent times and penalties have been handed out duly for them. Interesting to see how the Bathurst panel views the drives. Unfortunately it is customary that we have to wait till next week before the report comes out. Time to hit the hay buddy.Quote:
Originally Posted by aussiebreno
Could anyone offer a reason why the replay of this race is not available on the results page of the Australian Harness Racing website via Trots TV for this race?
Is there another source where the replay could be viewed?
If you're talking about the Bathurst race, its up now on trots tvQuote:
Originally Posted by broncobrad
watching it right now
It is there on Trots TV if anyone does wish to see it, thanks Norman. But the vision is not posted on the Australian Harness Racing results page, even though all other replays are. Thanks mate. I reckon it looks worse the second time.
Didn't look good the 1st time i watched it. Can't bring myself to watch it a second timeQuote:
Originally Posted by broncobrad
The abbreviated stewards report from the results page on http://www.harness.org.au/meeting-re...H090312&ms=nsw on race 9 indicates the stewards have inquired into the tactics of John O'Shea on the favourite which we will read about in the full report this week, and an inquiry has been opened into Trent Rue's drive. Thank Christ someone noticed it. The silence on these drives is deafening on this forum! We all bang on about improving the image of the sport and when confronted with the very reason the game is on the nose to the run-of-the-mill punter (the life bloods of the sport) no-ones got anything to say!!:(:(:(
An interesting and maybe completely irrelevant fact Brad is that John O'Shea drove all of that trainer's horses until not long ago, also when he ( O'Shea) decided to attack for the lead there appeared from the replay to be a bit of aggression there.Quote:
Originally Posted by broncobrad
I'll have to take another look at that Danno. I am so used to seeing John drive really well controlled races and have never, ever been worried about backing his drives. He usually gives his horses the best opportunity to perform as competitively as possible.
The drive's by both was bloody disgraceful glad i wasn't the owner of either having to put up with brain snap's like that it's hard enough to get a win without this sort of driving happening.For mine at least 6 week's each minimum .
http://www.harness.org.au/stewards-r...fm?mc=BH090312 has finally been posted this morning in relation to both drives. They have adjourned the inquiry of Mr T Rue to allow interviewing of the trainer Mr P Trevor-Jones, view betting transactions and view previous runs of Happy Camper.
The stewards advised Mr O'Shea that his explanation is noted and the matter remains open pending further investigation.
The driver of the winner Mr D Costa was fined for excessive use of the whip in a flicking motion. The winner Buddys Spider had indifferent form since returning from a spell (except for a sparkling third at Blayney) and started at $4.90 third favourite.
Is there something crook in Tullarook? Stay tuned...watch this space.:confused:
Adjourned inquiry information - according to the stewards report 0f 09/03/12 the date was to be fixed for the inquiry into the drive of Mr Rue.
Where can I find this information, I mean, the date that has been set...anybody?
Guess only but the stewards are in Bathurst over the Gold Crown Carnival , my tip is during that time frame.
Actually just had a look further evidence was taken the following week at Bathurst and the inquiry further adjourned and the horse stood down.
Happy Camper was permitted to race last night so the inquiry may have been concluded at last nights meeting, you will have to check the report when it comes online.
Thanks TVOR, but where are you accessing that information from?
www.harness.org.au go to the stewards report section,Quote:
Originally Posted by broncobrad
I have noticed over the years HRNSW, usually try to do the country inquiries when next in that area of the state hence the next two Bathurst meetings is the first place to look.
Thanks for the tip.Quote:
Originally Posted by Thevoiceofreason
http://www.harness.org.au/stewards-r...fm?mc=BH210312Quote:
Originally Posted by broncobrad
I think answers your questions
Supplementary Report
Bathurst Race Meeting Friday 9 th March 2012 - Race 9 Gold Crown Heats Buffet 23 March Pace – 2130M
Stewards today continued their inquiries into the running and handling of HAPPY CAMPER by driver T Rue. Several films were viewed of HAPPY CAMPERS most recent starts and further oral evidence was tendered. After considering all available evidence T Rue was charged under AHR Rule149(2) which reads “A driver shall not drive in a manner which in the opinion of Stewards is unacceptable.” The particulars being that after assuming the lead leaving the 1950 metres he elected to maintain that position when challenged by KENMORE STAR NZ from that point by applying a level of vigour to his runner until passing the 1650 metres at which point T Rue then stopped driving with vigour but failed to make any attempt to steady his runner until passing the 1550 metres when KENMORE STAR broke gait. The tactics employed by T Rue were in contrast to the gelding recent racing pattern and saw HAPPY CAMPER race well forward of the main body of the field which resulted in the lead time being recorded in a fast 37.3 seconds which in the opinion of Stewards was unacceptable. T Rue pleaded not guilty. After considering his submissions in defence of the charge T Rue was found guilty. In assesing penalty consideration was given to T Rue's driving record,his personal circumstances and the usual racing pattern of HAPPY CAMPER. T Rue had his license to drive in races suspended for six weeks.
Now the stewards get you if you go too fast as well as too slow!.......drivers will need to carry stop watches with them to check on sectionals during running.......I remember their used to be a driver that measured his speed by counting the steps of his horse?...I don't know how that works but that's what he told me! To be honest.....T Rue over did his tactics a bit, he then backed off his speed to a few slow quarters and only got beaten 13 metres at the finish.......I think he should appeal this decision......Why didn't they ask J O'shea why he didn't restrain his horse and race outside the leader......probably because he thought he would get the lead easily, if his horse didn't break, their would have been no enquiry!!! To be honest J O'Shea drove his horse too hard into the turn out of the home straight , which is a very tight turn, and it broke! The previous start Happy Camper gave up the lead to it's stablemate and ran 2nd at Bathurst.......what were the trainers instructions on the night?......The first sectional of 37.5 is fairly brisk, and was in amongst the same times in other races on the night, although they were in better grades!
The stewards should have warned T Rue & J O'Shea for their driving tactics, and fined T Rue for the slow middle sectionals.
Supplementary Report
Bathurst Race Meeting Friday 9 th March 2012 - Race 9 Gold Crown Heats Buffet 23 March Pace – 2130M
Stewards today continued their inquiries into the running and handling of KENMORE STAR NZ by driver J O’Shea. After considering all available evidence J O’Shea was charged under AHR Rule 149(2) which reads “A driver shall not drive in a manner which in the opinion of Stewards is unacceptable.” The particulars being that J O’Shea challenged HAPPY CAMPER for the lead from the 1950 metres and until approaching the 1500 metres when it was made clear during that challenge that Mr Trent Rue the driver HAPPY CAMPER intended to maintain the lead. T Rue made this intention clear on several occasions and despite this J O’Shea continued to drive KENMORE STAR NZ aggressively which contributed to a fast lead time and resulted in KENMORE STAR NZ racing well forward of the main body of the field. The challenge for the lead persisted although J O’Shea had knowledge of the racing pattern of HAPPY CAMPER and was surprised with the tactics of HAPPY CAMPER on this occasion which he found unusual. Despite this J O’Shea continued to drive KENMORE STAR NZ with vigour for a significant distance in an attempt to obtain the lead and not employ his initiative particularly with his familiarity of both KENMORE STAR NZ and HAPPY CAMPER racing patterns and ability. This was in the opinion of Stewards was unacceptable. J O'Shea pleaded not guilty. After considering his submissions in defence of the charge J O'Shea was found guilty. In assessing penalty stewards considered J O’Shea’s good driving record. Furthermore, consideration was given to the circumstances of the race and his personal circumstances. J O’Shea had his license suspended for 28 days.
A day later, more :) Leads to a few questions for mine. Hopefully one day they will be answered or at least explained.
A day later, more :) Leads to a few questions for mine. Hopefully one day they will be answered or at least explained.[/QUOTE]
Sorry Phil but I miss your point.
Quote:
Originally Posted by strong persuader
Well, there you go, I did not have the 2nd part of the stewards report when I made my comments earlier, but I think they support my argument, I have now reconsidered my opinion, now having hopefully all the facts!....and believe both drivers should get 2 weeks for their respective over aggressive tactics.......it appears from the report J O'Shea feels he did no wrong.........it was his presumption from knowledge of the other horse, that he drove in this manner, believing he would get the lead!.......the lesson!........you cannot make presumptions in racing.........don't forget you are dealing with the minds of trotting drivers!!!
If the stewards start giving only 2 weeks for theses types of drives, they may as well stop having inquiries.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Form Student
Give me a break, both drivers over did their tactics, one horse broke (which happens quite often) and the other only got beaten 13.3 metres......fines and 2 weeks, 6 weeks for that is over 10% of their annual available driving opportunities and income......that is too much for this incident! How often do 2 or 3 drivers come out of the gate attacking for the lead in the first 400 metres????????.......Answer - PLENTY.........my response is 2 weeks is sufficient.......if you were docked 6 weeks wages because you made a mistake at work, you would be spitting chips! I would prefer higher penalties for when someone actually gets knocked down! I Dornauf knocked down 2 horses at Menangle last Saturday night, sent someone to hospital, and got 21 days......both are racing incidents.......it wasn't as though they were hitting each other over the head with their whips!
Moreover, I now want every driver that leads and gets beaten by more than 14 metres to be given 6 weeks, because that is what happened here!
In my view the point here is, the manner in which these two horses were driven when compared to their previous starts.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Form Student
Happy Camper had not been driven like this recently and the previous week handed up very early on to a favored runner, this drive was in complete contrast as he had the opportunity to adopt the exact same tactic, a cynic might say Happy Camper was only out there to only beat the favorite, and in my view this makes the drive unacceptable, if on the other hand Happy Camper had made any attempt to hold the lead in previous races that puts an entirely different view on this race and drive.
Kenmore Star at its previous winning run was only even off the arm, came around to the death and when the leader showed the slightest intention to hold was happy to sit parked and as I said won the race. If J O'Shea had adopted a similar tactic on this night rather than pushing on until he galloped or dropped on Happy Campers back when he showed he was holding, not only would there not have been a suspension there would not even have been an inquiry into his drive. T Rue may have still have been questioned into a COT however.
When assessing tactics stewards should always look at the respective recent tactics of the runners involved, doing that in this circumstance, I think left them with little option other than to find both drives unacceptable in the circumstances of this race.
I did not have a bet so no bias here but can I ask ... Did you look at the replays of their recent runs before forming a view, I am only interested because I did.
VOR, I watch most races at least 2-3 times, at it's previous start Happy Camper (HC) gave up the lead to it's stablemate, Navarda Ace, the odds on favourite, then came out in the straight and got beaten HFHD.........not a bad run, 2nd beaten a lip at your previous run!..........if you look at HC's form it has been on the improve.............why not hold the lead and you might be able to bluff the other drivers into letting you get a slow quarter or so and have a good winning chance!
If you go back to the 15th February you will see that HC, driven by T Rue gave up the lead to Imposing Sign, driven by J O'Shea, who went onto win, and HC was beaten only 6 metres. This could have been in the back of J O'Shea's mind on the night.....sometimes familiarity breeds contempt!
So, obviously J O'shea had the perception that he could get the lead off HC with Kenmore Star (KS), but why should HC give up the lead......even though he has at his past few starts.....as I said HC's form has been on the improve and maybe that camp thought they would hold the lead tonight........Re, COT, this would not be necessary as HC went forward as usual, but held the lead.............if J O'Shea had not presumed the lead was his for the taking, and drove desperately to get it, this matter would not be under enquiry, and also KS broke and it was the favourite.........if every runner has to stereo-type their tactics in a race we should give it away..........I think it was great that we had a very competitive tussle for the lead, unfortunately KS broke..........yes both drivers over did their respective tactics........but in the end HC only got beat 13.3 metres, I know there were 2 slow quarters run, and he should be fined for them, but 6 weeks for getting beat 13.3 metres, you'll have to excuse me, but that is a joke...........2 weeks plus slow speed fine, and 2 weeks for J O'Shea also, but he is the major contributor to the enquiry!
There is an old saying in this country....."that possession is 9 points of the law"........T Rue on HC had possession of the lead, and it was his right to decide what he did with it.........J O'Shea had a decision to make about whether to try and take possession of that lead, and he chose to vigourously attack for it, which brought both horses undone!
I have a pet hate sometimes and that is drivers conceding the lead because the "favourite" wants it.....I also hate when a driver with no conceivable hope but to give his horse some chance by taking a sit, but decides to hold the lead against all attackers!........sometimes there is a fine line between the two options!!
I am not sure if either have appealed, but the sentence is too severe.....for 2 guys giving it there best shot!
Bathurst Race Meeting Friday 9 th March 2012 - Race 9 Gold Crown Heats Buffet 23 March Pace – 2130M
Stewards today continued their inquiries into the running and handling of KENMORE STAR NZ by driver J O’Shea. After considering all available evidence J O’Shea was charged under AHR Rule 149(2) which reads “A driver shall not drive in a manner which in the opinion of Stewards is unacceptable.” The particulars being that J O’Shea challenged HAPPY CAMPER for the lead from the 1950 metres and until approaching the 1500 metres when it was made clear during that challenge that Mr Trent Rue the driver HAPPY CAMPER intended to maintain the lead. T Rue made this intention clear on several occasions and despite this J O’Shea continued to drive KENMORE STAR NZ aggressively which contributed to a fast lead time and resulted in KENMORE STAR NZ racing well forward of the main body of the field. The challenge for the lead persisted although J O’Shea had knowledge of the racing pattern of HAPPY CAMPER and was surprised with the tactics of HAPPY CAMPER on this occasion which he found unusual. Despite this J O’Shea continued to drive KENMORE STAR NZ with vigour for a significant distance in an attempt to obtain the lead and not employ his initiative particularly with his familiarity of both KENMORE STAR NZ and HAPPY CAMPER racing patterns and ability. This was in the opinion of Stewards was unacceptable. J O'Shea pleaded not guilty. After considering his submissions in defence of the charge J O'Shea was found guilty. In assessing penalty stewards considered J O’Shea’s good driving record. Furthermore, consideration was given to the circumstances of the race and his personal circumstances. J O’Shea had his license suspended for 28 days.
Here is the final piece to the stewards report...........in the end, T Rue given 6 weeks, and J O'Shea 4 weeks........If J O'Shea was not the major contributor, I will give it away...........2 weeks each and let's get on with it!
Steve, in so far as the way different people see a race, can you watch the replay of Race 3 at Menangle last Saturday and tell me who you think is at fault there...as in from the point of release to around about the half? I don't think there's a right or a wrong answer by the way, rather I'm just interested in how others saw it. I also don't think it was suspicious in any way. The homework done prior to the driving instructions being given was severely lacking, IMO, but it wasn't dodgy as such.
The only point I can make is that Well Caught Marsh is a very fast beginner from the mobile, and holds the lead when it can in QLD, it was drawn inside Deadsetlucky and was able to hold it out for the lead, 25.3 the first quarter (Fred said.."fastest ever at Menangle") Deadsetlucky also a super fast beginner and usually can cross and lead at Menangle from any gate!........A match race for the fast beginners to the first turn........and that's what we got! Being drawn outside of the other horse Deadsetlucky, needed an extra length to cross, and at 25.3, I don't know where that was going to come from? I thought what a great speed duel between the pair, there was no room either for Deadsetlucky to pull in behind after the first turn..........So we ended up with an exciting race, and the "swoopers" appeared on the scene and won the race! I have no problems at all with how things panned out! Perhaps J Alchin should have looked up the form of the interstate guest!Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple V
If as you suggest these penalties are over the top, no doubt they will be appealed and then we will see how others see it.
In relation to your COT comment that is exactly when the rule is used when a horse normally hands up is driven to hold the top at all costs, it is the perfect of example of a change of tactics.
The COT rule should be thrown out the window!............it should only be whether you are going forward or restraining........I don't see a lot of difference between going forward, and going forward and giving up the lead.......it all depends on how the race pans out and the opposition tactics and horsepower........At Menangle this week there was a COT announced for a runner that it would be restrained at the start and race with cover...........Well, guess what......straight to the lead!...So what happens in this case??? There was a runner at Bankstown on Thursday that held the lead, and was attacked by other runners for the lead....held the lead and ran last!!...beaten 24 meteres, this horse had no form and was big odds...........Why doesn't this driver get the 6 weeks as did T Rue & J O'Shea........at this point there has been no stewards report released for this meeting, so I don't know the outcome? Back to the original race if Kenmor Star did not break when challenging for the lead there would have been nothing said! Don't you agree, that we don't know what would have resulted if KS had not galloped, and that Happy Camper only getting beaten 13.3 metres, I didn't get beaten out of sight!...... this says that my horse went really well in the circumstances, and I was justified in holding the lead????? Please tell me where I am going wrong??? Please explain the other 2 situations I mentioned, and what will and should happen in those cases? I can go back and fill in the details, but these were just 2 incidents that stuck in my mind this week!Quote:
Originally Posted by Thevoiceofreason