Keep digging the hole. 182 Australian breeders don't know what their doing but you have got your finger on the pulse. Or conversely 182 Australian breeders know what their doing and you havn't got a clue. Whats the odds whose right.
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Majority makes it the correct choice does it Viv? Time will tell.... Worked well for Germany...
:confused: Ahuh. In recent years you guys haven't exactly covered yourselves in glory 'good judge' wise Viv. Your Countrymen rushed Elsu and also wrote off Courage Under Fire after 2 crops. Also bred substantial numbers of mares to Red River Hanover, Caprock, Andrel etc. How many of your own mares did you get in foal to AR?
Was going early on but in the end left the mares in the paddock for a year and went and brought a weanling in stead. They are so cheap here at the moment. Have a look at next weeks weanlings in the all aged sale in Auckland.There will be heaps of cheapies, believe me. Like your list of Nevele R sires baring Elsu of course.. I have plenty more of their's to add if you want. They are finally starting to get involved with quality again with the likes of A Rock N Roll Dance but the last few years have certainly being dismal.
If a son of SBSW were to stand in NSW this season would you send a mare to him?
What an unbelievable mark Sportswriter is making as a sire in Canada.
On Monday, three Ontario Sires Stakes divisions were run for 2YO colts. Sportswriter provided all three winners as well as the quinella in one of the races.
Today, three filies divisions were run. Sportswriter improved on the previous effort, this time providing the three winners, the three second placegetters and two of the third placegetters.
Incredible !!!
I couldn't answer that question without knowing the individual horse and the service fee.
If it was Captaintreacherous for example and the fee was reasonable, the answer would be "yes".
At this point in time, I would suggest that being a son of SBSW would not be a selling point.
Hi Trevor,
The horses dam is shared by one of last years leading 2 yr old sires and top 2 at present 3 yr old sires in the States, Well Said.
That's rather critical of a horse that only had 8 starts before injury and when he won it was in the snow. like a lot of horses we never get to see them extend any ability as there careers are short lived.
I kind of liken him to Dane Shadow in the thoroughbreds who took the siring caper well yet himself a reasonable horse but bred by Danehill/Slight Chance it seems as though the mare really came through on that pedigree.
You cannot compare thoroughbreds stallions with standardbred stallions for god's sake. They have no AI, no frozen semen and don't shuttle half their top stallions with a result that a lot of thoroughbred breeders breed to poorly performed half brothers to champions in the Southern Hemisphere with less than adequate results. Standardbred breeders have access to the very best stallions in the world. Why on earth would you want to breed to a poorly performed half brother to a champion when you can breed to the real thing. As I said earlier the days of breeding to horses such as the one you mentioned ended the day we started shuttling horses such as Mach Three and Art Major. You can't turn the clock back now.
Sorry Michael but I totally agree with Viv on this one, That would be turning back the clock for standardbred breeders, We have a choice of the very best stallions, Art Major, Mach Three, Bettor's Delight etc and performance on the track and in the barn makes a huge difference these days, In the past we would have had a choice of going to a lesser performed and well related stallion but mostly this turned into a disaster for a lot of breeders. I'm all for personal preference with stallion choices but when you have access to the very best, You increase the odds of breeding a very good horse.
Have to agree with viv there you cant compare TB stallions to SB stallions in just doesnt work.
I think my all time favourite stallion christian cullen is a good example, he has 2 lesser performed full brothers in tiger woods and julius caesar, neither top sires like their brother although julius caesar has done a good job, the brother that won a race in tiger woods never got hot, there is also a half brother racing round bathurst hes by artsplace and gelded, just goes to show that even though your brother is a super star doesnt mean you deserve a shot as a sire.
I myself will stand a cullen son this season but im under no illusion that he may attract a single outside mare but he is perfect for my own mares, rather well performed, nz group winner, his sister is the dam of the all time great trotter in Lyell Creek, but his stand out qualities to me is a temperament to die for and the sensational good looks of his sire just in a bigger package, standing stallions is a very tough game and unless you have one of the top liners ready yourself for disappointment or breed for yourself and the outside mares are a bonus.
When the likes of sportswriter has done what he has with his 2yos and stands at a reasonable fee its gotta be good to compete
that doesn't make any sense- if they are genetically full brothers they have identical chromosomes etc the difference is the type of mares that book to them. in science any animal that shares identic blood would breed the same but horses are different as the same mare for example has not been to Christian Cullen and the Julius Caesar and the big difference is say Christian Cullen serves 100 mares and his fertility is 85% then 85 are foaled on the other hand Julius Caesar has much lower fertility at 65% and serves 100 mares he has 65 foaled approx. so numbers are different due to fertility.
The fact remains that the stallions that are full brothers are genetically the same have not served the same mares so you cannot compare results with progeny.
I am guessing Monique that you are standing Christian Fire? if so he just does not get sent mares of any quality which will reflect in progeny. As for saying breeding with better stallions you pay $9k for a good stallion or say $6k but its hypothetical on your belief as if a sire has never served any mares how can you predict his progeny.
The only relevance is what opportunity does he receive? any sire must get his chance with decent or quality mares to measure his worth.
Also in saying that Sportswriter has done what he has that is fantastic but how do we not know that a son of or a brother can not replicate. its just too hard to say that but as the better stallions also get the better quality mares yes it solidifies that they remain in the top bracket but you cannot judge any sire until he has served a book of mares as how can one predict what there progeny will do, no one has a crystal ball and if the industry won't support hobby breeders the commercial studs keep rolling on, everyone has to have individual choice.
You have an opinion and I have mine I am happy to breed my horses to whatever and you breed yours to your choice thats the simplicity in it,Yes its hard to stand a stallion but hey at least I will have a go and worst case scenario my mares will be served by my stallion which is not a bad thing as "I sing, I did it my way" good luck to whatever you choose.
I am sorry Michael that is just not the way it works in the real world. The great stallions leave quality horses regardless of the quality of the mares. When Christian Cullen went to stud their was a real antipathy towards colonial bred stallions.His numbers and the quality of those mares was low initially but he left outstanding horses anyway. When he received bigger numbers and better quality, the resultant stock weren't any better than his initial stock.
I don't how long you have been in this industry Michael but the advice offered here is given with the best of intentions from a lot of people who have been there ,done that.
I have done something similar to what you are proposing.
In 1997 I managed a stallion in New Zealand called Make A Deal. He was a lovely looking individual and bred in the purple being by No Nukes from the brilliant mare Leah Almahurst $1,000,000+. He had run 1;50.2 and won $610,000 on the track. I worked my arse off and got him 100+ mares in his first year but got out after that as I didnt like the type of horse he was leaving. He stood four years in New Zealand and was a huge failure. He had one $100,000 winner from 293 live foals and his stock in general couldn't stay a yard. That caused me to have a real negative view when Make A Deals half brother went to stud in North America. I told everyone who would listen that there was no way he could succeed. Unfortunately for me, at last count his half brother Western Ideal had $92,000,000 on his card and counting.
There are no certainties in this industry but the old saying breed the best to the best and hope for the best has a lot going for it.
How can you get christian fire from lyell creeks direct family?
As for he wont see quality my small band of mares are some that many big breeders envy so im sure even if he does only see my own mares if hes got it in him he'll have every chance to prove himself.
And as for the they are full brothers so given the same book they would have the same results thats been proven wrong so many times, as you like to compare to the thoroughbreds here is a great example lonhro and niello both given great starts to stud careers 1 succeeded and the other was very disappointing, so just because they are brothers does not give a horse a guarantee of being a good sire
Spot on, Viv. Experience tell us there's a good chance that a nicely related, moderately performed stallion will fail. That may be in part due to lack of opportunity but, as mentioned earlier, Cullen didn't serve top-shelf mares in his first seasons but still was a whacking success.
The reality - proven over and over again - is that full-brothers may be genetically identical ... but they don't produce identical performances (both on the track and in the breeding barn).
Certainly there's a science to breeding - but there's a whole lot more to it than that.
Michael, you were looking for feedback from people with experience in breeding. I think you've achieved your aim.
Good luck
What mares would suit Alta Christiano?
Interesting question Brendan. Here's my five cents worth. In Nz Christian Cullen mares have already had some big hits with Bettors Delight ( Highview Tommy--Ohoka Punter) so the reverse in the case of Alta Christiano of course would be a daughter of Bettors Delight.
The dam of Alta Christiano has had three nice foals which are by In The Pocket, Christian Cullen and Mach Three, all Direct Scooter line sires.
The dam Right This Time is by Fake Left. The best performer in Nz from a Fake Left mare as of today is Cyamach ($149,000) who is by Mach Three.
Therefore for me as both Bettors Delight and Fake Left are Cam Fella line sires and that cross with Direct Scooter has worked so well with this branch of the sires family, my first preference would be for mares by either of them followed by daughters of other Cam Fella line sires. Hope that makes sense.
Full brothers aren't genetically identical. The only way they can be so is if they are identical twins that resulted from the splitting of a single Zygote.
http://jcinternational.co.nz/stallions-sold/
2nd column. 4th from the bottom. ;)
Also....BETTERTHANCHEDDAR to stand in AUS this season. Outstanding horse. Will do a great job here.
There has now been 13 Ontario Sires Stakes Gold Series races and all 13 have incredibly been won by sons and daughters of Sportswriter. He is currently the leading 2YO sire in North America with progeny earnings of $535k, well clear of the 2nd placed Well Said on $360k.
He has had a good debut season in Australia being in 2nd place behind the perennial Art Major. If his Canadian results are anything to go by there may be even better times ahead.
I think you need to wait a lot longer than July. Sportswriter is in Canada and that unfortunately is now a poor relative in the North American harness racing scene. They run their sires stakes earlier than the rest so the siring charts mean nothing at this time of year. The major players are all in New York or Pennsylvania. All their sires stakes are just getting under way now. Like Shadow Play last year, Sportswriter is a big fish in a wee pond. Now if on the other hand they can be competitive in the major stakes races coming up, then you can sit up and take notice. Until then all you can say is he has done a nice job with the largest crop in North America from some of the nicest mares in the stud book. A better guide will be in October when the siring charts are a lot more meaningful than they are now.
All that you say is true Viv and I am not suggesting that he will be leading sire at the end of the year. Taking all that into account, however, the performance of Sportswriter up there to date has still been incredible IMO. While Ontario is not New York or Pennsylvania, the wee pond does include Camluck and Mach Three. To totally shut them out like he has is noteworthy.
For the first few months last season in Canada, Shadow Play did a very similar job winning everything going but not outside the sires stakes series in Canada. So far Sportswriter has done exactly the same. Now if Sportswriter takes that on to the big stage in the classics then it becomes note worthy.
I mean New York has Bettors Delight, Art Major, Rocknroll Heaven and American Ideal. Now thats competition.
Camluck hasn't registered on two year old sires list for ages and Mach Three has been mid field for a while as well. Not benchmarks you want to use in North America when looking at two year olds these days.
Canada results are not a good yardstick for stallions since the loss of the pokie money.
Sportswriter got a huge book of quality mares in his first year at stud and he does have the biggest crop of 2 year olds in North America.
As I said wait until October and you will have a much better idea of how he rates.
Apologies if I misled anyone by suggesting that siring the winners (and most of the placegetters) of all 13 Gold Series Sires Stakes races is an incredible achievement. Anywhere.
It is nothing really - happens all the time.
Viv might be able to tell us about some of the other occasions when it has happened in the past.
If you were to stand Sportswriter in South Australia you would get the same result from standing him in Canada.
Complete domination of a weak sires stakes programme.
If people don't realise how weak Canada has become then yes you are misleading them.
As I have said several times already, until they compete against the best it is impossible to draw any conclusions about how good the Sportswriters are.
What about him standing with any of the following; Art Major - American Ideal - Bettors Delight - Rocknroll Heaven - Well Said - Somebeachsomewhere - Western Ideal
to mention just a few.
In a different league to whats standing in Canada.
When the Sportswriters can compete with those stallions then he has made it.
That meeting is going to happen in the not to distant future so all the questions will be answered.
He could be the real deal but we won't know until the classics are run.
And Trev if you want to have a look at what a dominant first season sire looks like in a competitive state, check out the 2012 Pennsylvania Sires Stakes program.
I am no genius breeder, but I remember when the first Fake Left crop were dominating the 2YO races in queensland and one of my friends in the game stated how well Fake Left was going, I also remember how I flippantly dismissed the results as nothing much as it was only Queensland..............how wrong I was, Fake Left turned out to be the best sire in Australia, so far in my lifetime, as Globe Derby was gone when I was born in 1958.
I'm not saying Sportswriter is the next Fake Left or Globe Derby, just saying better to let the marbles roll before you make a goose of yourself as I did about Fake Left all those years ago.
cheers,
Dan
Hi Dan,
I'm not saying Sportswriter is the next Fake Left either. I was merely applauding the outstanding result that he has achieved to date in Ontario this year. Not everyone it seems is prepared to acknowledge his absolute domination of the sires stakes as being anything special.
Exactly Trevor,
cheers,
Dan
It was a Positive post Trev and definitely of interest. Overall our board needs more positive. Not referring to this forum so much but our Aussie board which has a bit of a negative flavour running. Apologies by the way if my Facepalm Horse Names thread seems negative but it is meant to be a bit of fun and to compliment the Brilliant Names thread
4 divisions of the $200,200 Clyde Hirt...2 winners incl a quinella plus a 2nd & 3rd in a further div. Filly from Sayo Hanover (winner 1st div.) looks extremely talented.