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And Its not possible but wouldn't it be great if HRA took Jeff Gural's Approach & banned cheats from racing at any registered tracks for life......that would be a certainty to either clean up OR finish the sport, it needs to do one or the other because if it doesn't do one the others a certainty!
“I didn’t spend $100 million to build a
racetrack so that dishonest people
could make a living racing there.”
–Jeff Gural
But if NSW are light years ahead, surely their testing will pick it up then?Quote:
Originally Posted by trish
My comment before explains that the affects of some drugs carries on long after it is possible to get a positive swabQuote:
Originally Posted by Lucky Camilla"s Lovechild
Trish, how do you know what drugs visiting interstate and NZ trainers are using?Quote:
Originally Posted by trish
If that were true then the hundreds of Kiwi horses in both codes who cross the Tasman to race each year would test positive at some point. To my knowledge none have and some have been there months. The reputations you are smearing here deserve way better than an ill informed wide sweeping rant as you have done here. If you have some proof, lets see it. Otherwise the only person here whose reputation is going down in a hurry is yours.Quote:
Originally Posted by trish
Haven't smeared anyone's reputation . I said that NSW trainers were put at a disadvantage as the testing procedures here are far more extensive and outside trainers have the OPORTUNITY to exploit it . Read what I wrote , not what you want to read into it . By the way , our testing procedures should be what all other states and NZ should be doing . Leave my reputation out of it .Quote:
Originally Posted by Viv Strangman
Hi Leigh , never said they were . You know as much as me . What I said was they has an opportunity to exploit it where the NSW trainers are tested week in week out and tested for everything that is possible to test for at this stage .Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucky Camilla"s Lovechild
Maybe this just balances out the years when NSW players could pay a steward not to be tested ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by trish
I think it's fair to say Kevin, that out of that disgraceful set of events, NSW is , as Trish indicated setting higher than previously seen standards and they are in fact IMO leading the way for other jurisdictions to follow.Quote:
Originally Posted by Messenger
Call me an idiot if you like but that was how I read the thrust of Trish's other posts on this thread...not that people coming into NSW were some how "rorting"anything, but in fact quite the opposite.
I'm sure Tee Cee will clear this up when he gets back from long service leave.
Cheers,
Dan
Quote:
Originally Posted by Danno
Your far from an idiot Dan just educated enough to read it as I meant it. 10 outta 10 my lad.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Messenger
Well what can I say!!!
Viv.
On reflection I realise that I didn't answer your post fully. Your right, a lot of horses have come over from NZ to compete in Australia at the highest level. Without being negative I pose this question to you & I am truly interested. If we managed to breed a very good horse & want to race him at the top level in NZ, we would want to send him to a trainer whose reputation is unblemished & has competed consistently & regularly at the top level in Australia as well as NZ. This trainer would also have to have ZERO positive swabs. Can you give me the names of trainers who come here on a regular basis from NZ, compete at the highest level & fill all the criteria above because there is where our horse would go . Thanks
Gold Kev!!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by Messenger
Hahahaha!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by Messenger
I agree. I don't know them personally and I'm no fan of Colin as a driver but I highly doubt the McDowells would engage in this type of behaviour. They run an extremely successful business and harness is more of a hobby for them. It doesn't really make sense.Quote:
Originally Posted by barney
I hope all states continue to take a thorough approach to catching drug cheats. I also hope all states put more effort into improving all areas of integrity in our sport. Drug cheats are only part of the problem, there are many other aspects that aren't being appropriately addressed that have just as big an impact on participation and generating wagering increases.Quote:
Originally Posted by trish
Yes, The cheats need to be driven out of the game and as you mentioned Mitch, The controlling bodies all need to take a firm stance as one and address the problem. As this topic has raged on we have seen a lot of different opinions and for those that have stuck their heads in a hole, It's real and not in your imagination and i'm fairly sure we haven't seen the end if it yet. Congrats to HRNSW for their good work with this problem and I hope that all of the other states get on board ASAP.
Rich, the point I was trying to make is that I think more needs to be done in areas of integrity outside of drug testing. Things like the application of the change of tactics rule, restricted access to race day stables at every meeting, better training of inexperienced stewards to read race patterns and identify questionable tactics etc etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard prior
I believe the average punter couldn't give a rats if a trainer is drugging their horse, they care more about race tactics and patterns being properly enforced by stewards because that what's they know and thats what's visible in the form guide. Unless they have inside info they wouldn't have a clue if a horse has been drugged, so from a pure punting perspective it's insignificant in many ways. It's the other industry participants (mainly trainers and owners) that care more about the drug cheats.
The reason I say this is the tricky balance all racing bodies have to manage is how to drive wagering revenue and increase participation at the same time. As stupid as it sounds this is somewhat at odds with each other when you look at the challenges faced.
If people think rubbing out all the drug cheats is good for wagering revenue then I think they are wrong. In fact it may end up having an adverse effect. Think about it.....
Integrity is a very broad topic. So whilst I encourage drug testing regimes to continue I also urge all racing bodies to invest harder and faster in other areas of integrity that will drive wagering revenue because that is the single most important thing our sports needs.
I hope that makes sense.
First of all Rich - you need to empty your inbox
Mitch, whether rubbing out all the drug cheats is good for the sport as in good for wagering is an interesting one. One thing I would suggest is that the big pro punter is always going to punt and the small punter that has a tipple is probably never going to read about it, so the only one's possibly effected/put off would seem to be the enthusiasts - so I think not. Was there a drop in punting as a result of the NSW stewards scandal?
VVV- I don't think for a minute that anyone has done anything wrong but at the same time I can't help thinking that if it were certain other stables involved here Trish....ones you're no great fan of...that you'd instead be all over them like a Seagull on a hot chip. Call me a cynic.Quote:
Originally Posted by trish
Hi Jaimie . No one has been found guilty as yet . We learnt our lesson and as far as that "other stable" is concerned , things are quite amicable . We met at Newcastle the other week and he asked us how we were doing . No problems or hard feelings there at all . You need to let go Triple . My post was about Collin and Cheryl . No one else .Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple V
"I believe the average punter couldn't give a rats if a trainer is drugging their horse"
Hi Mitch
That's fine and probably right as far as the gallopers & dogs are concerned but harness racing is unique in as much that the majority of punters have a direct link to the industry. If participants leave then they take many punters with them. We've seen participation drop constantly over the last decade & paralleling this has been a decline in punting to the point where we now sit at the bottom of the code pool. We speak to many , many people who are feed up & have already planed to leave because of the cheats. We have a dozen horses & now have glimmer of hope that they may be able to compete at an even level.
We applaud Reid Sanders & his team, he may save the industry yet.
I've never seen a shred of evidence to suggest that's the case, Trish.Quote:
Originally Posted by trish
Two more licenses suspended for Cobalt - Neil Day and Noel Tyndall
If anybody is familiar with Brian Taylors commentary this is all I could think of when reading this "Boy oh boy, wow wee".Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg Hando
No problem Ben, next time your at the TAB talk to anyone you might find betting on harness racing & may find like we have they know someone.Quote:
Originally Posted by BenScadden
Cheers
oh that's sad if its true......Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg Hando
Having worked directly with senior management at corporate betting agencies and TABs for more than 20 years, I've never seen any research that suggests people who bet on harness racing are any different than those who wager on greyhound or thoroughbred racing. Chatting to 20 people at your local TAB probably doesn't offer a true cross-section of the tens of thousands of people who have a punt each day. CheersQuote:
Originally Posted by trish
Fair enough Ben, that's what we've found over the years. Its probably something that the Authority should have researched years ago . Surely they should know the people that they are trying to sell something to . All the bestQuote:
Originally Posted by BenScadden
No worries. The betting agencies (including TABs) spend vast sums doing market research to get a better sense of who's using their product. They're turning over billions of dollars every year - and knowing their customer base is a significant focus of their business.Quote:
Originally Posted by trish
Just playing devils advocate here:
Some of the trainers returning positives to Cobalt have very long and unblemished careers but with a threshold for Cobalt only recently introduced late last year, is it possible that the level that has been set is just too low??
This and similar excuses crossed my mind too, but Nicholson and Hardy both pleaded guilty. Of course they pled guilty to presenting a horse to the races with prohibited substance, rather than pleading guilty to actually administering Cobalt which is two different things. BUT...while I personally have only read stewards wraps and some media reports, I haven't seen Nicholson or Hardy try to protest some form of innocence that they did not actually administer cobalt. If they aren't protesting innocence or leniency in that they didn't actually administer cobalt, then surely one can assume that they did in fact administer it?Quote:
Originally Posted by mightymo
Whether it's a new or an old level I guess people can always try and argue that the level is set too low. I wonder if we need to review the level for Bicarb, Bute etc what do you think?
Edit: I just read another link saying Hardy pled not guilty so there goes this post lol!
Im not an expert in this field, but we have years of data to use regarding most of these naturally occurring substances. Many jurisdictions and codes have yet to implement any levels for Cobalt as they dont know what level to use as a threshold.
With these positives all happening long after trainers were put on notice about the cobalt issue, I just cant believe that so many trainers would be stupid enough to continue using and hence i have concerns that the level may be too low and is picking up positives where there has been no additional administration of cobalt.
PS - i have no relationship with any of the trainers suspended so its not like im going in to bat for someone. I am genuinely raising a possible issue
Hi Harvey . HRNSW have set their level at twice what the Hong Kong Jockey Club set their level at . Reid Sanders would never jump in half baked . I understand he left no stone unturned and worked closely with the HKJC to establish a more than fair level that actually is biased towards the trainer . They've set this level for a reason and as an owner / breeder I actually feel that a weight has been lifted and now that , if our horses are good enough , they have a fair chance .
P.S None of us know how far over the limit these trainers went so your argument may be invalid
I wasnt aware that the level is actually double the HKJC. if that is the case, then maybe there are a whole bunch of dumb trainers who are either cheating or giving there horses products of which they do not know the contents...
Harvey, I believe you've hit the nail on the head on both counts there!
Hi Harvey
I think it is 90 for cobalt in America and 200 in n.s.w but I will try and confirm that (America). A lot of horse products have cobalt in them and when using multiple products it may raise the horses levels. As I don't know how high the levels have been with the trainers who have been stood down I'll sit on the fence on this one. The question I would like to ask is why does a trainer get stood down and has to move horses to other trainers before he has been before the stewards and a decision handed down, because if found not guilty it could open up legal ramifications for h.r.n.s.w one would think.
Am no expert but believe Cobalt by itself is not performance enhancing. Natural element in ground. Guess works its way into horses via grazing on pasture. Most feeds you buy contain cobalt. Enough to make up for any deficiency in pasture have read. Feeds for younger horses contain more than feeds for older ones. Guess something horses need when growing. From what have read feeding a product with cobalt in it when paddock already had enough cobalt in it would put you nowhere near the limits recently introduced.
Cobalt Chloride a different thing. Man made. Think it mainly used like a paint stripper. Poisonous. But in small doses can make horse 'fight' against it by producing heaps red blood cells. Red ones carry oxygen. Refer EPO, etc.
Told and read there is no test for Cobalt Chloride. The chloride part disappears real quick as horses body removes it by producing red bloods cells to combat it. But the cobalt hang around for a while and can be tested for.
Guess you get over limit to it (cobalt) they saying "How it get there?" Can't be from feed (maybe) so how it get there?
Do Google search "Cobalt Chloride" and have a read. One still there today says "Doesn't swab"...
For the first time ever Harvey we fully agree.Quote:
Originally Posted by mightymo
In Hong Kong the threshold is 100 micrograms per litre.
At the Meadowlands it is 200.
But arent they guilty already because they have a 'positive', and are waiting for the sentence? After that they have to prove their innocence? Is that correct?Quote:
Originally Posted by mango