and I am assuming the floor of the float is covered in carrots :)
Great post Ray
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and I am assuming the floor of the float is covered in carrots :)
Great post Ray
Photos like this one, that accompanies this piece on the No Whips postponement, do the industry no favours
http://www.harnesslink.com/Australia...ip-ban-on-hold
Could this be where we are heading with whip free racing?
https://www.facebook.com/punters.com...5/?pnref=story
Very funny Ray but these guys beg to differ
These two reckon not only do you not need whips, you don't need drivers
This link covers a few subjects, the second being the whip rule - it quotes John Dumesny as saying:
"We have told HRA that the whip will be continued . . . in NSW, but we don't want to get to the stage where there are different rules in different states,''
http://www.harnesslink.com/Australia...on-Park-battle
I like to watch the 2yo races.
I think he only he used the whip on a few occasions but there is a lot of forearm in the whip action that Cameron Maggs uses to get Ideal Suspect into 3rd place at Echuca today
The horse was having only its second start (the widest runner on straightening)
http://www.harness.org.au/meeting-re...ic#ECC10081706
Never driven in a sulky nor used a whip on a horse but good luck with the "wrist action" method especially when the pressure is on. Not sure if the stewards will be able to define that particular action every time, for every driver in every race.
I'm sure that just like all rules, drivers will try to circumvent this one at times. I'm also sure that the stewards will pick those infringements up 3 out of 4 times. So life continues on as it did before. The big win here is that drivers are now required to keep reins taut. No more looking like wild barrel racers, or worse still out of tilt windmills with both arms waving wildly in the wind in the drive home. I know that the uneducated think this is the best way to get a horse going, but I will always remain a fan of sitting quietly and confidently and allowing the horse to feel the same.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fan of Jate
The thing I cannot understand about the proposed change is - if they are having concerns about the safety aspect, why not make the rule that you can carry a whip but it is only for safety measures
Seriously how the hell can hitting a horse make it safer����
Jesus I thought guiding a horse was ALWAYS done from the front end . I have never seen anyone put a bridle on their arse!!!
May have to put you up for post of the year for pointing out the obvious so succinctly :)Quote:
Originally Posted by trish
They are both fantastic points by Trish
Chairman's Update
http://www.harness.org.au/news-artic...?news_id=34779
I have emailed HRA's Andrew Kelly to ask why the whip cannot simply be carried and not used except in the event of whatever emergency drivers think that they are required for (and thus are rejecting safety tools proposed so far) but his reply did not answer the question
There has been deathly silence on whips lately.
Just watching Maryborough and seeing drivers hit their horse as many as 20 times in the straight - it is not a good look
This was released today Kev on Whip use/rules
http://www.harness.org.au/media-room...?news_id=37518
It has been a complete backdown from the supposed whip free racing.
The concerns about the drivers needing a control tool in an emergency were BS as Andrew Kelly never told addressed my email asking why drivers could not keep their whips but only use them if an emergency arose
On those rules a driver can hit a horse 20 times in the straight - not that I saw too many pauses in Nathan Jack's action to name one
I would have thought Kerryn Manning a horse lover and yet once again she was fined for applying the whip too strongly to Micrometeor last Thursday
I don't think some drivers can control themselves in a belief that it could cost them a win
Have they ever stood back and had a look at what it looks like?
It is a pity Harness racing lost its courage after promising whip free racing
It would be more controversial to see stewards reverse a close decision like this particular race because of the whip action
- it couldn't happen in this race because 2nd placed driver Mark Pitt was also fined for using the whip too often
http://www.harness.org.au/racing/fie...ic#MXC12071807
http://www.harness.org.au/racing/ste...&fromstate=vic
I found 'Integrity Matters' in my email after writing this and it includes an update on whips including:
The HRV Stewards understand the widely held industry view that the whip is an important safety tool and we will be determined in our policing of these new whip rules to do our part to ensure the whip remains. However, it must be remembered that these new whip rules were only considered after the decision was originally made to ban the whip altogether in 2016 and I urge all drivers to commit to adhering to the new rules as this may be the last chance the industry will have to maintain use of the whip.
Well I must be plain stupid because nobody using the 'safety tool' argument has explained to me why drivers cannot carry a whip for safety BUT only use it for such emergencies
Fines do NOTHING to deter drivers from flouting the whip rule
see last night's Gp1 Triad for the fillies at Albion Park
or the Gp2 Derby - both close finishes where the winning drivers abused the whip rule and received a mere fine
Tell the drivers they could lose a race for flouting the rule and it will stop overnight!
AFL followers might remember when Kevin Sheedy had his bombers grab an opponent and hold him up for a sec after they took a mark - they brought in the 50m penalty and the bombers stopped doing it instantly
http://www.harness.org.au/racing/fie...s/?mc=AP210718
And another one, Dave Moran on Lochinver Art last night just needed to be DQed and we'd never see an inside back row horse deliberately OPS ever again.Quote:
Originally Posted by Messenger
I have sent the following email to both HRA's Andrew Kelly and HRV's Brett Day but received no reply
"Can you explain to me why there cannot be a ban on whips but let the drivers carry them as their ‘supposed safety tool’ in case of some supposed emergency"
I have received replies to email from them in the past but not this time.
I think it is because there is no valid reason why the above could not be the policy
It could be brought in slowly:
2yo races in 2019
2yo and 3yo races in 2020
All races in 2021
Just got a reply from Brett Day.
He rightly points out that any decision would have to be a National decision as horses move between states.
He did not rule out 'the whip for emergencies only' suggestion
I don't think we should consider a whip ban until the thoroughbreds do . Their fat padded whip looks far worse than our thin one that can barely be seen on tv . But if it does happen I agree and have suggested before that it should be a gradual introduction as you have suggested.
The way the industry is at the moment I think worrying about the whips is like worrying about the colour of the deck chairs on the Titanic !
You're not the first to point that out to me Rick - it just riles me that HRA have done such a massive back down, diminishing their credibility when it comes to animal welfare, and have achieved ZIPQuote:
Originally Posted by gutwagon
The 'who cares if I win' fines are a a JOKE
When the fine and penalty doesn't deter people from committing the offense that means it's not harsh enough ! But can we trust our governing body to administer these offenses indiscriminately ?
As far as animal welfare goes HRV are in bed with the RSPCA and most people have lost all respect for the RSPCA after the 4 corners report . So that is a whole new problem.
The New Zealand Cup win with Arden Rooney was case in point, that was horrible to watch, driver said post race the owners will pay the fine :(
Not sure how "rightly" that actually is Kev, after all horses move between countries in Europe including into and out of Norway which is the only country that has banned the whip.Quote:
Originally Posted by Messenger
HRA could make a national rule but has no power to enforce the states to adhere to it, but the states can make a local rule and have their stewards panel enforce it, independent of what occurs in other states. The problem would not be the movement of horses but drivers across jurisdictions, but somehow they manage that in Europe too.
In the interests of animal welfare it would not be in the horses best interest to have a uniform ban on whip use in all states of Australia but preferable to have at least one or two jurisdictions that do retain (restricted) use of the whip. It is a utopic thought to believe that all horses will try sufficiently without more vigourous driving and some limited stimulus with the whip to remain viable members of the racing population. And exiting the racing population may have a much more unsavoury outcome for them then more vigourous driving with a limited whip action would. One of the reasons Norway can race with a whip ban without negative implications for the life of the horse is non trying horses can easily be temporarily or permanently moved to a jurisdiction that permits whip use.
Given that changes to handicapping means that juvenile horses are racing at times against older horses means that a graduated introduction of a whip ban based on age wouldn't work either. However those calling for a whip ban introduction beginning with 2yos are perpetuating the misconception that carriage and use of the whip is only ever to punish horses not to educate them. Using Norway as our whip ban model 2 year old racing is the only level of racing where carriage and (restricted) use of the whip to educate horses for racing is permitted.
As for carriage and use only in emergencies it may be more difficult to police what constitutes an emergency then people may think. Bear in mind Norway race only trotters but we like the United States race pacers, and we race far more tightly then the U.S. or Norway does.
A horse galloping in the field, particularly a pacer wearing hopples, is always a danger to itself, it's driver, and the horses and drivers trailing it. It may fall itself or check others and cause them to fall or their drivers to be unseated. Often the remedy to a horse losing concentration and about to gallop, and only the driver may know it's about to happen is a quick flick with the whip to get the horses mind back on the job and pacing properly again.
It was this response from the recently retired driver now administrator, John Campbell at the last World Trotting Conference to Geoff Wants presentation on banning the whip that stopped progression of the whip ban debate in its tracks.
As for HRAs backdown on animal welfare being embarrassing the real embarrassment was HRAs failure to consult properly with member states and participant bodies, and indeed the industries customers, the punters, before announcing the ban. The greatest threat to the welfare of the industry's horses is a non viable industry.
I understand many of your points Dot
Unless it is a dainty flick the harness whip in action looks bad - we are in business so anything that looks bad has to change
It looks worse for us than the gallops because our whip is 4 times as big - 4 times as visible
If you can't go 'Norwegian' then you have to get serious about enforcing the flick rule - protests and loss of races is one such measure
Have to agree with Rick, I think visually the TBs whip is far more visible particularly on TV then ours, though the action of some of our drivers is more ungainly then many jockeys
The issue of sufficiency of penalties and efficiency of policing whip rules, be they what they may, is really the issue at hand, not banning the whip.
I don't see why in the future Australian Harness Racing could not be known for, not banning the whip as Geoff Want intended, but for having the highest penalties and most rigid adherence to the whip rules in the world.
As an aside Mr Want prophesied that if we didn't ban the whip government would ban our sport as the NSW government had banned greyhound racing there. Well very interesting turn of events there, not only is greyhound racing not banned it now receives additional support from government and has announced with the aid of funding from the NSW government they will be staging the richest greyhound race series in the world with total prizemoney in the vicinity of $1.7m and $1M to the winner.
Makes our sport and ID series look truely the "poorest" of the codes and I'm afraid continues to dishearten me for our future.
Don't get me started on the Doggies Dot. They are a disgrace - the number of animals they go through! Why should everybody adopt a greyhound to solve their problem - they are not the perfect breed for a pet for most
I hope the do gooders realize that most cows, sheep, pigs and chickens are bred purely to be slaughtered and put into the food chain. They kill about 99% off them. The racing industries try to save and provide a good quality of life for a huge % of our stock but a small amount will end up in the food chain. I bet the horses and dogs in the racing industries have a much better life than that first group ! Most of the trainers I know look after their animals welfare better than they do their own.
Kev, Doggies aside, we should focus on our own issues, not those of others I believe. In respect to the whip, the people who believe it should be banned are not the people training or driving them..WHY?? I think you need to ask yourself that question and have a serious look at what the answers are going to be. Experience should never be invalidated, its the best teacher in the world bar none. Horses like kids respond better to the carrot than the stick no doubt in a very high percentage of occasions, BUT do you remember the results of banning the cane at schools? Poor old teachers have been battling to get day to day respect ever since from sections of their students ( not all of them and not all the time) there IS a place for the stick/whip/cane/kick up the arse in life, and the sooner the people who think they have all the answers acknowledge they don't the better off everyone will be. There is no single answer to all situations in any walk of life. Nuff said.Quote:
Originally Posted by Messenger
Point taken Dan. Not a horseman (I wish I had been - compensated by taking daughter to Ponyland every week for 10yrs) but I was a teacher for 20 years and I could never have picked up a ruler/strap to hit a child even if it was permissible in my time (last century). When you think about it - not all the teachers gave corporal punishment in our days either, some obviously could while others couldn't. I was a shocker of a kid and received the cane etc often and I cannot say it worried me but I just cannot imagine doing it myself.
My biggest problem with whips is 'how' some use it.
Definitely nuff said
If our current whip rules were properly enforced with penalties harsh enough to deter repeat offenders, most of the controversy would go away.
An astute follower has pointed out that it would be good to have some research on what the public thought about them (especially 18 - 30 yo's) as we have to know the opinion of the market place on many matters such as this in our endeavor to attract new fans
Possibly nothing too pointed but I was thinking it would be good to get a sample of our intended market to comment on some videos in terms of what they liked about them and what they didn't. The research would be about more than just whips but the variety of short clips would make it possible for the viewers to notice some minimal/zero whip use and some over the top use
My thoughts are 80% may say ban the whips, but how many of them would come along the trots anyway? A lot of the 20% who are ok with keeping whips would be the ones more likely to get involved in the industry.Quote:
Originally Posted by Messenger
Sorry Kev but I think what your astute follower is suggesting would be a waste of resources. We already know if asked the vast majority of the general public regardless of age would support a ban on the whip. But they would be doing so from the same position you do, as an observer with a preconceived negativity about all "whip" use, and without knowledge of the alternative positive uses of the whip.Quote:
Originally Posted by Messenger
Peer pressure alone ( apart from in the TAB section of a pub or club probably) would likely see those who are undecided or ambivalent side with those in favour of banning the whip.
As for showing videos of minimal and over the top whip use what would be the purpose of that, other then reinforcing a negative message. I'm not a supporter of banning the whip but I am offended more then most in the industry by excessive or over the top or inappropriate whip use.
We don't need a marketing survey Kev, we know what we need, rules that minimise whip use with appropriate penalties and enforcement to ensure they are adhered to.
And outside of raceday an education program ( as previously promised by HRA in the form of a series of video presentations from Dr McLean) for trainers to ensure they understand the appropriate way to use a whip in the education of horses.
Kevin, I think they should be surveying people that bet on racing,dogs and sports but not on harness racing. Try to find the reasons they don't bet on our sport and see if those issues can be addressed .
All of us on here are already fans of harness racing so we are blind to what is keeping new people away . I think that we have a perceived integrity problem. I have never heard anyone mention whips as an issue, the main comment I hear from outsiders is "all the races are fixed aren't they". Most of the trainers and drivers that I speak to genuinely believe that certain people are getting special treatment from authorities. Until this perception goes away we are in trouble.