WOW - the requirement of licensed harness people to answer stewards WILL NOT hold up in Court
http://news.sheppnews.com.au/2017/11...ence-objection
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WOW - the requirement of licensed harness people to answer stewards WILL NOT hold up in Court
http://news.sheppnews.com.au/2017/11...ence-objection
It's all happening. That may dramatically change any current enquiries and court proceedings around the land. It has set a precedent in law.
With HRV all about protecting the image, reckon they would have looked at the Echuca meeting last night through gritted teeth.
Three of the four, once court was adjourned must have got in the car and headed straight to Echuca for drives.
Rather ironic that Nathan Jack drove the first race winner. Mark Pitt also had a win and Lisa Bartley was unluckily beaten on a short priced favorite.
I know they've been driving but for this to happen now I must say I had a good chuckle to myself.
joke....dream....wake me up am i hearing this !!
The 5th Amendment is live and well in the harness industry - at least in a court of lawQuote:
Originally Posted by DRUIDRACING
ps There is also no 'self-regulation' in our ranks either as none of the accused seem to be missing out on drives
I had an interesting email from someone who knows infinitely more about these matters than me, suggesting the police should not have been relying on evidence gathered by HRV
I would like to think and hope that police and prosecutors know what they can and can't use (but maybe not :confused: ) so must have their own reasons for using it surely?Quote:
Originally Posted by Messenger
I think we will find they stuffed up this time
I think the Cobram Four might have a bit in common with the proverbial Werribee ducks going by today's proceedings (from tomorrow's Herald Sun):
"A HARNESS racing identity was caught in secret police tapes discussing a race-fixing sting that allegedly netted his mates thousands of dollars.
Experienced trainer-driver Mark Pitt stands accused of corrupting the betting outcome of a race in Cobram in June 2015 after allegedly colluding with champion driver Nathan Jack to manipulate the racing position of their horses.
Fellow racing figures Amanda Turnbull and Lisa Bartley — both of whom were in relationships with the accused drivers — are also facing corruption charges.
All have pleaded not guilty.
The court heard on Wednesday that Mr Pitt admitted he rigged a race in which he won with horse Airbornemagic after overtaking Mr Jack’s horse Tooram Lad on the final straight during a race in Cobram.
Secret police recordings played during the Shepparton Magistrates’ Court hearing on Wednesday revealed Mr Pitt and Mr Jack discussing the alleged plot.
“(There is) no proof you or I fixed the race,” Mr Jack said during a phone call on August 23 last year played in court.
The recording was played to Mr Pitt during a police interview hours after the quartet were dramatically arrested at a race meet in Melton last year.
“He (Mr Jack) said he would lead and I would follow. He said let it run fast,” Mr Pitt told a police recording which was played to court.
Harness Racing Victoria’s integrity unit initiated an inquiry into the “Cobram Crew” after becoming suspicious of various elements of the race including betting patterns.
The night before the race betting odds on Airbornemagic plummeted from $32 to $4.60 after a series of bets were placed within hours of each other.
The Herald Sun has previously reported as much as $30,000 was won on the race by figures connected to participants.
The racing figures also stand accused of secretly training Airbornemagic at stables with better strength-building equipment.
Police allege the racehorse, owned by Ms Bartley’s father, had been rehoused at Mr Jack and Ms Turnbull’s stables and that HRV were not consulted.
Failure to do so can result in inflated betting odds.
During police interview, Ms Bartley said: “Dad isn’t as high a level trainer as Nathan and Amanda.”
“Dad only trains slow horses.”
The “Cobram Crew” were charged following a large-scale probe by the Victoria Police sporting integrity intelligence unit.
During the police interview played to the court, Mr Pitt admitted to tipping off his girlfriend, Ms Bartley.
Police allege she and Ms Turnbull each pocketed more than $2200 from the win.
Text messages exchanged between Mr Pitt and Ms Bartley, revealed in court, appear to show they were monitoring the odds on the horse leading up to the race.
Pitt wrote: “Metro (nickname for Airbornemagic) is at $15 now,” the court heard.
In another text Ms Turnbull asked, “Did you tell Nathan to bet for you?” to which Mr Pitt replied “yep”.
Pitt told police he denies collecting more than his $250 rider’s fee for the race.
The hearing continues."
All that is bad in the sport is in this report for the world to see. The needy and the greedy!
Thanks for the details Trevor
Apologies from me for suggesting the police/prosecutors 'stuffed up' - they had more than just HRV evidence
http://www.harnesslink.com/Australia...ss-race-fixing
Another court report from the Herald Sun
The younger generation - too lazy to talk face to face and too stupid to understand your phone will be your undoing when partaking In a scam.
These four will be nominated for the Australia Racing Hall of Shame, a shoe-in. Placed along side Rick Renzella and Haydn Haitana in the "most desperate for a dishonest quid" category.
I am not sure that we can tarnish all the young generation Trev - maybe just a few that left school early and joined the harness ranksQuote:
Originally Posted by Showgrounds
Thats a bit cruel Kev..:), but showgrounds is right, some of these people are not smart even though they can train and drive a winner with the best of them. Makes you wonder how many are are smart enough to NOT use their phones.
I remember an old (very, and still active) at a training forum a couple of decades ago lamenting that young horsemen (women, persons, et al) cannot tack on a shoe but can hit the jugular vein with a needle blindfolded.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fan of Jate
Similarly, Kev, not ALL of the younger generation can be tarred with the same brush as the Cobram Four. Nonetheless, it is hugely disappointing that our racing media, ever compliant with the industry as it shrinks in numbers, has gladly pumped the tyres and reputations of these four as models of the new generation of harness racing trainers and drivers. We are doomed if these models of modernity are not penalized for their greed and arrogant stupidity. Just reading the evidence put forward from Thursday's proceedings summarized it all - just tell the Police you don't remember! :mad:
From what I have read, if what I have read is correct, and I hope it is not.....if the recordings the cops have put forward as evidence are actually true then however old/young/tech savvy or otherwise the players are they will have to pay a hefty price for this, having said that one of the horses involved "Airbornemagic" has not been heard of for quite a while, I hope he is OK, and its funny when you look at his form that he did very little ( almost to the point of embarressment) in the starts before he had before the "Cobram Crew" took him in their care and very little after leaving their care, in a very brief career, but managed to win in 1.55 or thereabouts in his one and only "15 minutes of fame"....I sincerely hope the horse is OK.
There is a good story if you google Sheparton news, it's about the Police interview with Mark Pitt I don't know how to put the link on here
Good summary of that one DannoQuote:
From what I have read, if what I have read is correct, and I hope it is not.....if the recordings the cops have put forward as evidence are actually true then however old/young/tech savvy or otherwise the players are they will have to pay a hefty price for this, having said that one of the horses involved "Airbornemagic" has not been heard of for quite a while, I hope he is OK, and its funny when you look at his form that he did very little ( almost to the point of embarressment) in the starts before he had before the "Cobram Crew" took him in their care and very little after leaving their care, in a very brief career, but managed to win in 1.55 or thereabouts in his one and only "15 minutes of fame"....I sincerely hope the horse is OK.
Court hears police interview
DECEMBER 06, 2017
An interview with Avenel harness racing driver Mark Pitt was shown in court yesterday, as a hearing involving four people accused of race fixing continued.
Mr Pitt, Lisa Bartley, Amanda Turnbull and Nathan Jack have pleaded not guilty to charges of engaging in, facilitating and possessing knowledge and/or information about conduct that corrupts a betting outcome.
Magistrate John Murphy viewed the interview with Mr Pitt, recorded at Melton Police Station on August 28, 2016.
In the interview, Mr Pitt spoke with detectives about how he first became involved in the industry and his relationship with his co-accused Lisa Bartley.
‘‘I don’t know much else about anything other than horses,’’ he said.
An investigation was launched into the tactics adopted during a harness race at Cobram on June 22, 2015.
Prosecutors allege the footage of race four at Cobram shows Nathan Jack took to the track with Tooram Lad and he allowed Airbournemagic, driven by Mr Pitt, which was close behind, to win.
When questioned about who he knew to be the trainer of Airbournemagic in 2015, Mr Pitt said he thought David Bartley was training it.
‘‘I think he might’ve been taking it to Mr Jack’s place to use a water walker (a therapeutic treading pool for horses),’’ he said.
When asked about his recollection of the race in question, Mr Pitt said he remembered the drive ‘‘vaguely’’.
‘‘I can’t really recall the day ... I ended up behind the leader and ended up winning a good race,’’ he said.
‘‘It seemed like we were travelling fairly fast, I was always behind the leader and made a run when the leader was dying out a fraction.’’
Mr Pitt told detectives he did not think it was surprising that Airbournemagic won, as it had been ‘‘pretty strong’’ during a previous race.
‘‘(David Bartley said) ‘Do your best and try and hold a forward position’, as close a position to the leader as I could,’’ he said.
‘‘(There was) nothing out of the ordinary in that race ... Tooram Lad got a bit tired late.’’
Mr Pitt denied discussing racing odds with anyone before or after the race, but did admit someone made mention to his partner Ms Bartley about winning money.
‘‘I can’t afford to be doing stuff like that, it affects my career and income ... I’m trying to make a living out of it,’’ he said.
On Monday, Mr Bartley did not give evidence in court with Magistrate Murphy deeming the consequences to be too severe.
Last week, the court heard evidence from betting agency employees about the pre-race betting patterns of the alleged fixed race.
Harness Racing Victoria evidence was also thrown out and not used during the hearing as it was found to be involuntarily obtained.
The hearing continues today.
The prosecution's key evidence is the mobile phones. I will be interested to see how many mobile phones the police obtained. You would think, with 4 people charged, there will be 4 phones. I reckon there will be more.
I carry 2 mobiles but one is supplied with my job and is strictly work related. My grapevine tells me the, as yet, unnamed trainer arrested in the Bendigo area the other week on suspicion of "historic" race fixing charges, handed over one phone when asked. When hung upside down and shaken (metaphorically speaking) another 3 or 4 phones were obtained.
Given the relatively small amount of money (a couple of grand each) said to be won by the Cobram Four, it seems they underwent a lot of planning to win a small amount of money by today's standards. Interesting that Bet365 ad Ladbrokes disclosed that Airbornemagic had been backed from $35 to $3.60. One would think somebody got a fair bit more out of the win,
It's the use of multiple mobile phones that is my concern. It seems multiple phones are common, one for "official" use other (probably pre-paid) ones to talk with others about less savoury topics. Unfortunately, for the needy and the greedy, the cops are all over this and know that mobile phone records leave foot prints, not fingerprints. These 4 industry participants appear to have been wearing gumboots just to make the job a bit easier for the police.
Anyone who has watched a crime movie or the proliferation of CSI or similar shows in the last 15 years knows that any crim worth his/her salt has at least 2 phones and a couple of throw away ones as well, the gendarmes would surely know this. As Trevor indicated some people need to have two phones. The people concerned would have had friends in on the action maybe even the nasty type and they would not hesitate to plonk some big money on the horse. All betting outlets have to have records of bets laid. I do know one of those concerned and have found their attitude/behaviour regarding a racehorse to be above board in any communications. I would imagine the penalty would be harsh if found guilty.
Case now into the third week:
http://www.sheppnews.com.au/2017/12/...gations-denied
[QUOTE=Fan of Jate;53568]Thats a bit cruel Kev..:), but showgrounds is right, some of these people are not smart even though they can train and drive a winner with the best of them. Makes you wonder how many are are smart enough to NOT use their phones.[/QUOTE
Like many who choose a gambling vocation stupidity is not a handicap even though as you say Pat some of them can train and drive a winner.:o
After reading the Shepp New's excellent update I think at least one of the four can be gainfully employed operating an excavator. Appears to be very skillful at digging a deep hole!
I have heard the term 'teflon Turnbulls'
But it is only fair that you have a 'cast iron' case to find someone guilty of anything
well well well it may be time for me to walk away from this industry with all the corruption allegations, my love of my horses may just keep me here a little longer to finish their careers.
HRV have issued a reminder about their Social media policy for participants
http://www.harness.org.au/media-room...?news_id=35739
There may be times that I edit posts for the poster's protection in light of this policy
http://www.hrv.org.au/integrity/stew...-participants/
As Basil Fawlty was advised "Don't mention the war"Quote:
Originally Posted by Messenger
The official line could be if you have an opinion, best keep it to yourself. Going through old racebooks (that should have been pulped decades ago) I realized I have been a hands-on, money on the the table participant in the trots caper for 45 long years. And a sucked-in wannabe for a few years before that.
It's pretty difficult for me to reconcile that, having witnessed countless baffling decisions by industry leaders, red-hot rorts on and off the track and countless dubious incidents that have gone unnoticed (perhaps, some just un-publicized) by stewards that I am not allowed to publicly comment on some of these. Not without being summonsed by a please explain session issued by a faceless person.
Makes you wonder a bit on how the much-flaunted word "integrity" is interpreted by the custodians of our sport.
Only one thing for it Trevor, we will all have to enter our posts in the "positives only thread, no ifs or buts" thereby removing most of the opinion from posts. :)
Having said that there may be a few backhanders off the ball in this forum but generally pretty good robust discussion which should not be seen as improper or going against "policy" After all, that's why we have moderators "dont we" ?
Turnbull, Pitt and Jack about to drive the 3 chances in Race 2 at Bendigo tonight - I wonder who will win?
http://www.harness.org.au/racing/fie...ic#BNC14121705
Be fair to say that Amanda Turnbull stole the show tonight with her training efforts ( 3 winners) from about the same opportunities at Bendigo
She did better than that Pat, she had 5 runners in 4 races and she achieved the ultimate by winning all 4 with a quinellaQuote:
Originally Posted by Fan of Jate
http://www.harness.org.au/racing/fie...ic#BNC14121705
Am I the only one that finds it disturbing that many trainers are happy to use the accused drivers in the interim?
I know one is innocent until proven guilty but there is some pretty damning evidence on public display that is doing our industry harm and there will no doubt be HRV charges still to come
I think it says something about many more in our industry - what they are willing to accept or not accept, and thus something about our industry itself
Along with a couple of other matters in the news - it actually makes me contemplate whether our industry is too seedy to warrant one's support
Cheers kev, I missed that last winner.
I basically agree with your thoughts on using drivers under suspicion or charged with an offence. Although I do think we have to take the general society procedures/rules with other employment where people have been charged such as the police who are usually suspended on full pay until a lawful decision is made. If we stopped them driving/training etc they would have to get some type of compensation or basic wage. Maybe I am on the wrong track with that one but worth thinking about.
All our participants are basically self-employed.
Your reputation is as much your living as your skill, if a self-employed plumber mucks up or is even under suspicion of having done so then he would probably expect it could affect his/her livelihood - his mates and family would hopefully be there for support
It would seem that accused and numerous offenders that have returned from suspensions have lots of friends in our industry.
Some may see it as loyalty and I agree that best mates and friendly have to be there under just about any circumstance
My present frame of mind finds the size of the their network of friends worrying
I am clearly at odds with the RAD board as a friend has pointed out that decision on Feb 8 regarding the current matter before the court in Vic, included:
We are not satisfied that the need to protect the integrity of the industry outweighs the damage to the reputation and livelihood of these applicants. Indeed nor are we satisfied that the integrity of the industry will be harmed by the continued involvement of these applicants in the sport pending the outcome of charges.
Accordingly, the decision of the Stewards to suspend all the applicants is stayed.
Latest HRV update on the matter
http://www.harness.org.au/media-room...?news_id=35786
"HRV is unable to make any further comment in relation to the matter."
Surely HRV will be stating before April whether charges are to be laid against Amanda Turnbull
Fully understand HRV cannot legally make a comment. However, the seriousness of the charges would normally demand some kind of action (you would think?).
As I indicated the other day HRV has stated it will crush an ant that dares to question the games's integrity but there will be an invasion of ants if this matter is just allowed to linger.
It would appear, even before it's conclusion this case is asking more legal questions than can be answered by the rules as they stand, and legal argument being what it is today means no set of defined rules will be immune to attack.
Time for our administrators to clearly define who they will licence and who they will not. I know for an absolute fact there have been some steps towards making it difficult for some to gain or regain licences but there needs to be a line in the sand drawn that discludes as many people as possible that have track records that display their lack of respect for the prosperity of the game and all the other participants.
And some people and administrations will need to grow a spine or go, the time has come in my humble opinion, for the small percentage of grubs (and hanger-on desperates) in this game to be gone.
not any easy task even though the numbers are small, but the weeding out is entirely necessary otherwise I fear the game will disappear.
Maybe karma has caught up ?