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Hello All,
I would have to agree with what Mango has just said. I would have thought that $ 8,800 would have been around the mark. I think that $ 10,000 + gst is a little high, especially for a smaller size 1st season sire. Be interesting to see what happens now with Rock N Roll Hanover.
Yes definitely Mango
He is all of the above as a racehorse but and a big but unproven at this stage even Art Major came here with big wraps but started out around the average price for good stallions he didn't start on top dollar he worked his way up and even now as a premier stallion not all of his stock sold that well at the sales. I'm afraid this is a straight out cash grab of good promos and sparkling lights for me
Hello Nat,
A very good point with Art Major. I believe that his fee was $6,600 with Pepper Tree farm in his 1st season and that was when the economy and sales results were in better shape.
Hi Nat/Love Of Courage
I think Rocknroll Heaven would attract heaps more mare's at $8800 than $11000 and it would even itself out $$$$ wise in the end. Example if he gets 150 at $11000 thats 1.65mil and if he got 200 at $8800 thats 1.76mil and i do think there would be a big difference in number of mare's served if he was priced right. And your right Art Major started out at a good price and got the foals on the ground which has helped him make a horse with Heaven starting up at $11000 he wont get know where as many mare's and the thing is you need the numbers on the ground if you are to make it as a stallion.
He will get a full book I'm sure and he would have paid his way there and back several time if he stood for $5000 I think $6500-$7500 would have been more the mark but we seem to be getting out of hand on these service fee's and even $5000 is a fair investment for the average family breeding a mare or two in this industry. Look at Sportswriter has been labled the Artsplace clone and has a 2yld record to boot stood for just $6000 SBSW $13,000 the best 2yld and 3yld ever
And yes I agree alot of foals on the ground at a lesser fee is a better investment for the stallion owners than a little at $alot
so much for service fees going down to be in line with the sales
amazing how one stallions hype (rocknroll heaven) has resulted in an 11k service fee and another stallions hype has made everyone hate the horse and couldnt get a mare at stud (auckland reactor)
I have to agree. I really do like the horse BUT it's worth remembering that BOTH Bettor's Delight & Art Major made their debuts at $6,600 incl. GST if I recall correctly and Christian Cullen made his at $4,400 incl. GST. I think R N R Heaven is high side at 11k. His right price here is anywhere between 6.6 & 8.8 incl. GST.
Hi Triple
I think by putting that price on him he has lost 50+ mare's already.
Hello Mango,
Got to agree with you there, the service fee will cost a few mares. I like the stallion but in todays market think that this service fee is too high and will cost mares for sure.
Look forward to Rock N Roll Hanover announcement because if his fee is sensible he will get a lot of the mares that Heaven would have got.
I caught your earlier post Mango which you edited. All I can say is if he grew six inches perhaps they feed him Penis enlargement pills:o
Hi Love Of Courage
Yeah that was my stuff up as i read it wrong whilst trying to type watch Bathurst and talk on the phone i can't multi task but i must admit it was worth putting on there to get your reply what a crack up. And i think in an earlier post someone said Hanover will be $12000 + gst and i think there on the mark.
Gee's not one positive comment on the sister web site Harnesslink about the announcement of R&R Heavens coming to Australia and his service fee
Hi Nat
Some comments made about Heaven's service fee when in general converstion with a few mate's can not be repeated on this forum. So far not one positive and everyone agree's a 1st season sire should be $8800 max. I suppose when it comes back to it you go to the one you can afford as there's plenty out there to choose from. I think stallion's with a service fee of between $4000-$7000 will get a hammering by the sound of it and looking at the sale results it's probably a smart move.
If R&R Hanover comes out at a reasonable price say somewhere between $12-15,000 it might shake down some of the big boy and their prices.
Hi Nat
$13,200 has been mentioned by alot of people that are up there in the breeding industry. It will be interesting to see if there is a discount structure for multiple mare's served by Hanover, one can only hope. For me personally and thats if Hanover comes out i'd probably lean towards him over Heaven as he is a proven sire that has thrown great progeny, i do agree with everyone else that Heaven was the better racehorse but is a little pricey and even though they say he is 15.2h he looks small and that is a worry when breeding to sell cause if you get a small bay filly you won't even get your service fee back at a sale so to speak.
RNRH will stand at 12500 + GST
Hi Mightymo
Thanks for setting the record straight, what do you think of the price of both Hanover/Heaven and will you be sending mare's to both and do you think there will be any studs lower service fee's on certain stallions.
Something that's worth keeping in mind...the fee that a horse stands for in the US/CAN is largely irrelevant to that which they stand for down here.
Over & above the syndicated sire/resultant yearling sale aspects, the US/CAN fees are directly influenced by the $$$ available in the associated Sires Stakes program, programs financed to a significantly greater degree than anything going down this way. There are anomalies of course, M3 for example and in reverse, Artiscape...but generally speaking the Yearling Sales $$$ and the $$$ that's available to race for down here versus that which is on offer up there in both categories, cannot be reasonably compared.
While everyone's banging on about the top end of the market and how that relates to yearling sale returns....to put it in some perspective the fact is such a discussion ecompasses a small percentage of that which is already representative of a minority of all foals produced annually here in Oz. It means something to most of us here but overall, like it or not, better than 75% of all Breeders in this country couldn't give a Fat Rat's Arse.
At the top end of the market we have SBSW, RNR Hanover, Art Major, Mach Three, Bettors Delight, RNR Heaven, and at the next level down Mister Big, Sportswriter, Jereme's Jet, Four Starzzz Shark, American Ideal, Grinfromeartoear, Shadow Play, Real Desire, Modern Art, McArdle, CUF and probably quite a few others that I haven't thought of.
There has been some big money paid for some of these stallions and competition for mares will be intense. I am sure that some service fees will be reduced and there will be a lot of discounting.
Hi Eliteblood
Wecome to the forum , first of all i will agree with you that big money has been paid for stallions and people will continue to do so. Now i noticed you put Heaven in the top end of the market which as a racehorse and on breeding he probably deserves to be, now SBSW is the fastest 3yr old ever and equal fastest horse in a race and with 20 wins and a place from 21 starts and you have included him. Now for me SBSW service fee at $13,200 out here is right on the money as he was a great horse and there won't be many on the ground so they will sell good even though he is not proven. Now Heaven who will be standing in Australia and is unproven but will be standing at $4,000 more than Art Major and Mach 3 and $3,000 more than Bettor's when they started out here so why the big difference, cause when them stallions come out the Aus $1 was buying at the most 80cent US and now our $1 sits above there's. They tell me breeding's a number's game so more on the ground means more winner's and so on. I'll throw a figure at you for example if Heaven serves 180 at $11,000 the = 1.98mil but if his service fee was $8,800 and i'm sure he would at least get an extra 50 mare's so that means 230 and that = 2mil. So it means they are still getting the same money what ever way you look at it. Back in mid January Mr Bellino made a comment that Heaven would only serve about 150 mare's over there but could serve 300 in the southern hemisphere. So could you please tell us is there a cap on number of mare's that he will serve and explain to myself and other forum members why the price difference compared to some of the other stallions Art Major, M3 and Bettor's. Or is the reason having his fee at that price mean that he will get the better mare's and that the market won't be flooded with them (yearling sale's).
Hi Mango,
The moneys paid to buy the SH breeding rights to RHR Hanover and RNR Heaven were much much more then for Art Major and Bettors Delight, despite the exchange rate movement.
The service fee however is not necessarily a function of how much the stallion cost but rather how much the broodmare owners are prepared to pay.
In setting the fee at $11000 Pepper Tree Farm obviously believe they can attract a full book at that price. Time will tell if they are right but I personally think both RNRH's will find it tough at their stated fees.
The point of my post was that there are many good stallion choices out there all competing for the higher end of the market. I expect that competition to result in service fee reductions, discounts, deals, etc. Those that get the fee wrong will not have a good year.
Hi Eliteblood
Thanks for your reply and i did understand your first post so i thought i'd fill you in on the frequently asked questions. Do you think the prices the Americans are asking for there stallions are way over the top. I'm not sure if there books will fill or not but if Bettor's had over 400 booking's last year i can't see why a proven stallion such as RNR Hanover can't get a full book, i think on the other hand Heaven might struggle a little due to not being a proven sire as yet but who knows. I have heard the asking fee for Hanover is there much difference compared to Heaven and if you had to choose 1 which would it be and why.
I don't know if RHR Heaven is going to have semen shipped to NZ. Pepper Tree have been reluctant to do that in the past. If not and he has to fill his book just with Australian mares then I think it will be a challenge given the level of dissatisfaction broodmare owners have with yearling sale prices and the level of competition from other stallions, especially his dad. I think the two RNRH's will be fighting each other for the same bunch of Australian mares. If only one had come they would have found it so much easier.
Maybe I'm being overly cautious, PTF have got it right and he will serve 300 mares.
I am pretty sure RNR Hanover will ship to NZ and I think he will do very well there. I have heard a fee for RNR Hanover of $12500 plus gst.
I would be excited about breeding to either horse. The plus for RNR Hanover is that he has runs on the board. A negative for RNR Heaven is that he is smaller then you would like but I regard RNR Heaven as the better racehorse and like the fact that his mother is a $600k winning Artsplace mare whose only other foal also won $600k. I will certainly be sending mares to him and possibly RNR Hanover as well.
I think the current service fees and the prices being paid for some of these high profile stallions are not aligned to the state of the downunder racing and breeding industries and something has to give. That is not the American stallion owners faults. They will know when they are asking too much when our studs turn their backs and walk away.
It makes Sportswriter look attractive at his service fee of $6600 as he was the better 2yr old and won the North American Cup as a 3yr old before soundness issues. People say Sportswriter was and looked like his father Artsplace more than any of the other Artsplace stallions and as i've never seen either up close i can't comment on that. What i do wonder but know one will ever know would Heaven of been so successfull had Sportswriter still been racing.
I think Sportswriter is very attractive at $6600.
As you say, we can only surmise about whether he would have maintained the advantage that he had over RNR Heaven prior to his injury. I thought RNR Heaven was just sensational as a 3YO and my gut feeling is that Sportswriter would not have stood in his way.
you dont see a problem with going to a stallion with a problem that ended its career (quarter cracks i think)?
I personally would not lose 1 minute of sleep worrying about that
I agree EB. Non-issue and especially so with a sire. I'd be more worried about a mare with QC's because in my experience they're something that's maternally and not paternally driven.
That aside, if you dig around for long enough you'll find that just about every sireline has some sort of a negative aspect to it, one that seems to haunt it more than most. Two examples that come to mind are Abercrombie & No Nukes. It's anecdotal however I believe the Abercrombie line to be more predisposed to Founder/Laminitis than other lines while the No Nukes line seems to me at least to produce an overt number of horses with palate/airway issues & also parrot mouths.
I worry more about what they are racing on than injuries, Sportswriter was a super star 2yld, the 3yld season just gone in the US the competition was average for Heaven, he won the big races and posted good times as he should have look at the SBSW 3yld season he trounced nearly all before him but there were 2-3 good horses chasing him at all times Art Official and Shadow Play to name 2 won some good races and money and posted top times
Hi Nat
Last year's 3YO's may not have had the depth of SBSW's year (or was it just that RNRH turned up at every major race and totally shut the others out). It's a judgement call but his world record 1:49.2 in both the heat and final of the LBJ were awesome. Shadow Play by comparison won his heat in 1:50 and the final in 1:50.1. Art Official won his heat in 1:52.3 before finishing 3rd in the final.
What distinguishes RNR Heaven from others as a sire prospect is that his racetrack deeds are backed up by a state of the art pedigree.
Hi eliteblood
Nothing against the horse and its great that studs like Pepper Tree go and hunt down these quality stallions for our breeding seasons I would breed to him any day. But this horse has been on a media juggernaut for his 3yld season and I personal enjoyed watching his race and reading about him on the net it's just sometimes people can get a little overwhelmed with the media and loose sight of some perspective there wasn't this much talk even when Pepper Tree made SBSW available to the souther hemisphere.
agreed nat
Nat, SBSW didn't win the jug which from what I understand people from the southern hemisphere think a lot of and he didn't go to the southern hemisphere he only shipped semen. I don't have a dog in the fight here but Heaven deserves all the credit he gets . He raced on every size track didn't shy away from any race and started way early in the year .
Hi Fullerton
I hope it doesn't sound like I'm having ago at Heaven he is a wonderful horse and deserves his cudo's I posed the question is he that special he is worth $12000 straight up is he a better horse in whole than Sportswriter, Well Said, SBSW, Art Official & Shadow Play to name a couple. I think now with the net and live broadcasting down here of US races we are starting to look past the Jug and look at the whole picture but you are right in that the winners of the Jug have done quiet well down here at stud. In juvenile racing we see allot that just dominate and post the best times due to the lack of contenders and being able to run to suite then when they go to FFA status cannot cope being muscled around (Auckland Reactor is one that comes to hand)
Hi Fullerton just to add to last post
It just seem a lot of breeders down under are disappointed in his fee most were braced for $6500-$9500, we don't often see the big boys come down here or the service fees are astronomical so we tend to breed to the best sons and they are normally half to a third of the price of that their sire. Believe me no one hates the horse everyone is in admiration its just his high service fee we don't have limited books as to drive the sales prices so he could literary serve 300+ mares if the demand is there in the southern hemisphere
Thanks nat, but you keep talking about Sports Writer he never won a race on a track besides his home track he never finished in the money anywhere else. Also I dont think there were a lack of contenders I am one who think Heaven was just that good.
Hi Fullerton
I don’t know what the media was like up there this year but wouldn’t know if another horse existed up there and Sportswriter is the only horse of his age group that we have herd about that I can compare him to other than that nothing else exists, it's hard to compare any racehorse to SBSW his only let down not racing the Jug a bit like BAF not winning a Miracle Mile but its good to get your opinion of the horse.
What are the horse that will go on to FFA racing from this years 3Yld's is there anything to watch out for any hard luck storys
Good question One More Laugh won the Medowlands pace $1,570,000 ,We Will See Pa sire stakes Champ $803,408, Kyle Major ,Fred and Ginger $518,000, Meirs Hanover just won the Cam Fella Pace last week , Thats just some off the top of my head.
One More Laugh has great closing speed, Did I see Valintino has had a stable change and how dose he fare in the scheme of things normally good FFA horses are there about in the juvenile racing then come of age.
I think Valentino is a good horse I also like AJ Corbelli I think you will see the better ones starting to Qual soon . The Levy at Yonkers this weekend will show some of the top contenders.
Thanks Fullerton
Just watched race 10 from Yonker boy the caller did a good job that fog shocking allot of down under horse's on the card and noticed a few racing a Mile and 1/16