Your the bean counter Brenno I thought you'd know that everything always comes down to the bottomline. I think you have misunderstood my question, it wasn't about your ability to judge pace. Brenno we may all feel the same lactic acid build up etc but are you saying that we all transition from the use of aerobic energy to anerobic energy at the same threshold? I'll have to decline your offer of a race though, I couldn't match VVV for 20m let alone you.