First the Stands, next the Mobiles! Bring it on fellas.

Quote:

Originally Posted by A BIT DUSTY

Brendan you obviously don't own a calculator Penrith as example prizemoney $5,500 ist 3,713 that's as close to 70% as you can get. You should check your facts before mouthing off.

Check Brendan's stated occupation :cool:

Quote:

Originally Posted by aussiebreno

It's a competition. HRNSW is not an employer of trainers or owners.
The takeout for 1st isn't at 70% either; more like 60%; and a wee bit higher at Menangle Saturday night.
The what if scenarios are silly. What if first sits three wide the trip why should he only $2000 of $4000 grand total while last place sat leaders back beaten 40m and gets $100. See what stupid hypotheticals acheive? Nothing.

Brendan, sometimes it helps to empathise with others. Daryl is a horseman speaking from an owner/trainers/horseman perspective.

I don't know you Brendan but I'm beginning to get the impression that you haven't been around quite as long as some others.

When you've been around for 30 or 40 years and experienced just about every different racing scenario you tend to look at the bigger picture and evaluate things from a wider perspective, which was where Daryl was coming from.

I know we don't always agree with one another but it's good practice to al least listen to and way up other points of view. None of us are right all the time.

Cheers, Dan

Quote:

Originally Posted by A BIT DUSTY

Brendan you obviously don't own a calculator Penrith as example prizemoney $5,500 ist 3,713 that's as close to 70% as you can get. You should check your facts before mouthing off.

I looked up a Menangle Midweeker and a Wagga friday.
Goes to show some races/meetings do look after the also rans - even if is just $50 or so. Some restricted meetings around the Riverina offer fuel vouchers for also rans.

Quote:

Originally Posted by David Summers

Check Brendan's stated occupation :cool:

Nice pick up!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Danno

Brendan, sometimes it helps to empathise with others. Daryl is a horseman speaking from an owner/trainers/horseman perspective.

I don't know you Brendan but I'm beginning to get the impression that you haven't been around quite as long as some others.

When you've been around for 30 or 40 years and experienced just about every different racing scenario you tend to look at the bigger picture and evaluate things from a wider perspective, which was where Daryl was coming from.

I know we don't always agree with one another but it's good practice to al least listen to and way up other points of view. None of us are right all the time.

Cheers, Dan

Yes you are right I am younger.
If total prizemoney allowed it I'd have no problem with giving also rans $1000. I get the point but I think you have to reward the guy that won with more than 50% prizemoney - remembering they also have to take a class penalty.
I accept when people disagree with my point of view so not sure what you are getting at there...it wouldn't be much of a forum if one poster stated his views then others either posted saying here here and the ones that disagreed weren't allowed to reply...I think as it is most people agree on things, or agree to a certain extent, on things anyway.

See what stupid hypotheticals acheive? Nothing.

Brendan,
I think I've not explained myself very well. If it wasn't for " hypotheticals" ie; people kicking ideas around... we would still all be living in natural shelters breaking rocks into some form we can use to kill our dinner mate!

Cheers,

Dan

Quote:

Originally Posted by Danno

See what stupid hypotheticals acheive? Nothing.

Brendan,
I think I've not explained myself very well. If it wasn't for " hypotheticals" ie; people kicking ideas around... we would still all be living in natural shelters breaking rocks into some form we can use to kill our dinner mate!

Cheers,

Dan

You are correct in what you are saying but it's out of context. Using hypotheticals in the manner that poster did for the split of prize-money is silly - there are so many different things that can happen race to race that to govern prizemoney split up by one hypothetical situation is silly. And to the user who made that comment I know it wasn't really the basis of your post and you had other points.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daryl New

Jaimie the question is should I expose a novice 2yo to the stresses and strains of the cauldron of Bulli long after its used by date has expired for the off chance that it survives the first turn let alone the rest, or should look after my horse and wait for the Gold Crown and again pressure it to survive the first turn at bathurst and the risks associated with green and immature horses chasing $s before they are ready.Common horsesense goes out the window at the thought of the $s on these two questionable tracks for two year olds

[VVV] That's all just a tad on the emotive side as opposed to the realistic side don't you think?
If the truth be known I'm not & never have been an overly big fan of half miles tracks in general Daryl. History aside, I wasn't exactly broken hearted when HP was sold & Menangle became the standard. A great leap forward there if ever there was one.

That being said, if I had what I thought was the right horse and if I thought said horse was ready to go at that time then I would almost certainly still take a shot at both races. I'd love it if both were conducted on a track of Menangle proportions/quality however that's not going to happen. Also, the fact is that many horses are all they'll ever be at 2 & 3 and some are all they'll ever be at 2yrs & do not improve so much as an inch nor a second on their 2yo form.

There also seems to me to be a fair bit of 'Nanny State' involved in your view of 2yo racing.
From that perspective I think it's yet another example of one of the fastest growing Industries in Australia...that of people being outraged on behalf of others.
The fact is that, just like yourself & your own horses, people will make their decisions & do whatever they want to do with their own horses...be they ready or not and in your eyes be that right or be that wrong....& that's where it begins & it ends. It is also a fact that 2yo racing per se is not and it never has been of itself responsible for young horses falling by the wayside.
Rather, exactly as you probably quite rightly bemoan the fact that some drivers can't get their charges away from a stand, I've no doubt that some trainers simply can't train juveniles. Maybe they're too hard on them, maybe they're not hard enough, maybe they don't read the go ahead signs or back off signs well...God only knows the reasons why.
If I knew that I'd be living in Monaco next door to Mick Doohan.
There's no shame in any of that either by the way. I know of horsemen/women who are excellent at their profession as far as older horses are concerned but for whatever reason they can't get 2yos up and going.
On the other hand there are those out there who will come up with a handy 2yo year after year.
By and large it has long been my experience that those who seek to bag 2yo racing the most are also those who'd secretly like to be in it but either they don't have the horseflesh required or if they do then they can't ever seem to get them going early enough.

Here's a related thought.
Given the current state of play as far as fillies & mares racing is concerned, anyone who owns a 2yo filly should be leaving no stone unturned in their efforts to get them to the track. I say this because once they've past 3yrs, the pickings are getting pretty damned slim & continue to get slimmer for the females. Try regularly starting in 4yo+ mares only races. If you give up on a filly's 2yo season then you've effectively given up 50% of her racing career and as much if not an even greater % of her earning capacity.

Hi Trip V,were you moonlighting on 2ue this afternoon with G Hughes talking about Arthur Beetson? If not there are 2 Triple V's around.Lordy, Lordy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daryl New

Out comes your commercial breeder side.
[VVV] Aspiring to be a commercial breeder is bad because........? You make that comment as though it is something I should be ashamed of and that identifying with their ranks somehow engenders a lack of objectivity in this discussion. You've always been a big one for the old 'US vs THEM routine so maybe this is another manifestation thereof? The fact is 80% of the Breeders in Australia breed to race. We used to breed to race but having found it hard to have your cake and eat it as well, now we mainly breed to sell and occasionally we'll race one.
I freely admit that I do dream of the day we could be full-time commercial breeders but alas, right now like the vast majority of the 20% remaining, we're part-timers doing our absolute level best to knock out quality horses that'll go on & race & win for their owners. So far so good.

That crutch you referred to kept a lot of participants in the game.
[VVV] Incorrect. That crutch I referred to was that which presided over and made financially viable the raft of mediocre sires that used to make their homes here in NSW. One only need to review the resultant progeny of the last 10 years of NSWSS operation and then make note of their regularly repeated inability to make a dent on the National stage when in against the progeny of VIC, NZ and at the time QLD bases sired to see how far below par the NSW product had gotten.

The only problem as I see it is that the Stallion importers didnt offer the quality of stallion at that time.
[VVV]...and unless the NSWSS was abandoned & eligibilities were altered by way of the addition of a mares based component, nothing would have changed. NSW owned & domiciled mares were making HUGE contributions to the VIC product at the time.

No I havent discussed this with Don but quite oten D J Heath and I discuss the inadequacies of the Alabar series and the positives of the NSWSS.
[VVV] John's a good bloke, always good to have a chat with him.
Obviously you are very much for a protectionist view of the NSW Breeding Industry then Daryl, that being the very same thing that saw it slowly but surely wither & die on the vine as the quality of horse produced during its tenure dropped through the floor.
When we got to the stage where we had 3rd rate sires serving the daughters of 3rd rate sires who were themselves the daughters of mares by 3rd rate sires then it was finally time to call it quits. Thankfully someone saw the PRESS IN AN EMERGENCY button and jammed their digit into it....ending the nightmare once and for all.

We cant all own Bettors or Machs etc.
[VVV] They don't win all the races either. Look at Menangle on Saturday night.
Nuke Of Earl, Mach Three, Washington VC, Courage Under Fire, Bettor's Delight, Badlands Hanover, Sundon, Tinted Cloud, Art Major and a US bred who's sire isn't available here & even so isn't exactly a big ticket item anway. 6 of those aren't big $ fees. Harness Racing's one of the most egalitarian sports there is in that respect.

remember if all the Daryls leave NO harness racing.
[VVV] With all due respect, nobody's asking anyone to stay. Not you, not me, not Breno or David or Greg or Dallas or Harvey or Trev or anyone. I could throw a wobbly and walk tomorrow & that's my decision. I'm not going to of course, I'll stick even if they're racing for ribbons. Its a moot point anyway. We're entering an era of unprecedented prizemoney and so prosperity and if people can't make some sort of a go of it now then they never will.
Continuing from the previous point, the beauty of Harness Racing is that you don't neccessarily need to be a big spending owner/breeder to get the best horse. Thankfully it has always been that way & it will always be that way.

Another elephant in the room. Prizemoney breakdown.As it stands the winner takes 70%, leaving 30% for the rest. Geez sounds like the TAB distribution doesnt it.
Any way with this new money how doe you feel witha revised breakdown to say 50% for the winner( 22,000 metro race ) = 11,500 and say 4,300 for 2nd, and 2300 for 3rd,1200 for 4th and 700 for 5thand 400 each 6th to 10th.More money across the board, more incentive to keep horses racing, more incentive to reinvest in horses etc. The same to apply to the improved provincial prizemoney scales. after all the horse that ran second beaten by a nose in 1.55 possibly led up, ensured the winner is credited with a fast time and may/probably worked harder. Afterall if you go to a show at the theatre ( and they keep telling me we are in the entertainment industry) even the stage hand behind the scenes gets paid. Our stagehands are those 6th to 10th (Bulli 5th to 10th) only get $55 and $40 of that goes to the driver (whether they deserve it or not) Hang on what does the trainer get for having to be there2 hours before the race Nothing oops another elephant in the room. ps just because you dont like the NSWSS model doesnt mean it wasnt the right one
[VVV] I agree that the purse breakdown should be changed however there's simply no point changing it unless it goes hand in hand with full on Conditioned Racing. Cherry picking and then grafting various bits & pieces of the US system onto our framework is madnes.

Regards

Jaimie

"It is also a fact that 2yo racing per se is not and it never has been of itself responsible for young horses falling by the wayside."

With all due respect to you Jamie, you are consistently referring to your opinions as FACT, when " in fact" it's simply your opinion.
I realise you are most likley doing this on "auto pilot" but it's probably about time to be fair in debate.

2yo racing is complicit in the early demise of many young horses.. certainly there are many other factors like the existence of bloated prizemoney, the lure of a "quick buck" and trainers who, for one reason or another, have no luck in getting the young ones going but to claim it a fact that 2YO racing plays no part is just hot air mate. Albeit it sounds convincing but thats about where it ends.

I mean how can you on the one hand say "we have 2YO racing" and then claim it's a fact that the racing ( let alone the preparation) plays no part in horses falling by the wayside???

Cheers,

Dan

G'day Dan,

I think you're making the mistake of taking the old 'guns kill people' argument and applying the same line of thought to 2yo racing. Guns are a factor BUT they are neither complicit nor responsible. Same applies to 2yo racing. It doesn't cause horses to fall by the wayside. People do that. You're at once both blaming juvenile racing itself for any negative outcomes and giving absolution to the owners & trainers who've succumbed to the 'lure' (your word) of big early $. That my friend is every free born citizen's own decision to make. Nobody is forcing anyone to do anything. Free will Brother, free will. We were all born with it. It is ours and ours alone to exercise.

Regards

Jaimie