Chicago Bull in the last at Perth TerryQuote:
Originally Posted by Halwes
http://www.harness.org.au/racing/fie...20#GPM22052004
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Chicago Bull in the last at Perth TerryQuote:
Originally Posted by Halwes
http://www.harness.org.au/racing/fie...20#GPM22052004
You can stay up late on Friday nights Breno because you can go to bed early on Saturday as Melton's last race is 8pm ! :DQuote:
Originally Posted by aussiebreno
Actually fantastic because sometimes I cant see straight by 9pm.Quote:
Originally Posted by Messenger
Na.. don't get I!! why are u teasing me.. just tell me. I am the greatest .. I am the best judge of great pacers .. I do need to see them.😉
Oh ok .. Thanks..didnt see this when I posted belowQuote:
Originally Posted by Messenger
You must be night owls in NSW as the last at Menangle is not until the unseemly hour of 9.20 !Quote:
Originally Posted by aussiebreno
Thanks KevinQuote:
Originally Posted by Halwes
I need your help again.
Some time ago you sent me a fab link that facilitated me in finding meetings, race results and a horse and in particular, I could click then somewhere on that same page on a little icon off that horse , and bingo it would take me to the video off that race
Can you kindly resend it to me..
http://www.harness.org.au/index.cfmQuote:
Originally Posted by Halwes
Just click on any meeting from Racing or from Results
Just click on any horse and you will see his lifetime Performance Record
and at the end of each start you will generally see an arrow in a circle which takes you to a video replay of that start
You don't have to do that if you are looking at Results for their latest start as at the top of the race result there is the same arrow with the word Play for you to click on
Improve racing by making it easy for the public to find things
Why should someone, wondering why recent Bendigo star Alex Ashwood is not driving tonight should be able to find the suspended drivers list without needing to have access to Harnessweb
Make sure we hand down 8 years or more for cheats so that the new generation coming through are afraid to follow in the footsteps of some of the supposed peers of our industry
http://www.harnesslink.com/Australia...or-eight-years
One cannot possibly believe that this is a one-off. This reflects SO BADLY on our industry, taints his whole family, his friends and all of the industry especially WA
It is unfortunate that Harness Racing has it would seem cheats.
When purses are lowish, and the sport isn't what is was years ago, temptation to 'earn' extra money is present. Mind you as my nana would say there is ( was then) lots of skulduggery going on at the Trots. Drivers whose turn it is not to win, can move to the rails and become trapped there without too much scrutiny. This hasn't changed a lot today. So bookmaker records can be reviewed, or tab records. But there are hidden bookies and all that takes resources to review all this, resources probably not sufficient to do much,
and even if there is a possible issue, proof can be very difficult, and resources to pursue this are thin. So authorities probably look at things like dumb things done by dumb people. The Cobalt issue in racing industry took a long time to delve into. As I watch the Trots on video, unlike the past, they are quite good quality so placing stewards around the track has probably almost disappeared.
I'm wondering whether mobile starts facilitate the cheating, you know 'it's not my turn tonight.. I'm second favourite and getting to the rails and getting trapped in, is not hard to do. In other words, money is made by backing other horses. I'm actually not a conspiracy theorist, I think it would be a rare thing, but the temptation is there. I guess if there is instead, doping going on, and this is becoming more common, that should be the focus. it's scientific , so if you are caught, you're done, proof isn't too hard, you'd think. So if that is pretty tight, you have to look at other issues, like handicapping. To make it more equal, that is to facilitate a greater opportunity for lesser horses to win races, therefore more money, reintro of standing start handicapping, is not only a great look, it will mean that lesser horses will win more races. Well,that's my intuition, and I'm not 'eating' harness racing
like so many of you who have outstanding experience and knowledge of the sport. That doesn't mean you don't have mobiles, you reduce them a little initially, then reduce them more. You also have to give trainers good lead time to do this as it will take time for trainers to retrain their horses. Standing starts can also facilitate cheating but you tighten things up here and there to help. Much more importantly, big races should be handicaps so we can see how good a horse is to come from 10, 20, 30, 40. I hark back to my beloved Halwes who was so good, he'd win from anywhere, but was arresting to see horses winning in these handicaps, but sometimes no matter how good they were, they dont win...all this makes me want to go to the Trots particularly to watch handicapped horses in big races. At present, it's um ' same, same, same to go to the Trots.
I recognise that standing starts need management by having stewards there to supervise all that. But I'd be first to put my hand up to be trained ( whs is always an issue but today people are more aware, you just choose wisely. I'd go into a roster, I'd also be happy to a manager of that ..All this means..' inclusion, something very much missing in many walks of life today. You also get more people at the Trots. However, you probably are aware I am very cynical about CEOs . They don't care, they say they listen, but I doubt any of them would ever consider what I have written here. Such a shame, as listening to others is so important. Responding though, it the real test for CEOs.. they don't
Stewards are still placed around the track Terry
All the racing codes are about betting nowadays and that is the reason the standing start for pacers disappeared - people were upset if they did not get a run for their money
With all today's technology I think we could have MOBILE HANDICAPS - maybe a little slower than at present but still faster than walk up starts
Maybe keep the mobile barrier vehicle for the front line
then you have those off the second line as the first level of handicap
Then you can have a couple of other handicap distances at whatever handicap you wish 20m, 30m, 50m, ....
These races would start in the home straight where we have a sprint lane
These handicapped distances of say 20m and 40m would be paced/lined up by a noiseless electric scooter on the inside (who can then pull off easily into the spr lane)
The scooter riders (possibly with a passenger so that one is concentrating on driving and the other on the horses) would be in communication with the front row starter/mobile vehicle and as is the case now the starter can issue instructions to numbers to move up or pull back. The harness drivers know that they cannot be ahead of their pacing scooter
There would be technology that tells the scooter driver that he is the right distance from the front line (a set speed for the vehicles would of course help them get their distances right)
What do you think?
It would be interesting to see if front row drivers would learn to make use of their advantage. In pro Athletics and Cycling you will never see the frontmarkers make it easy for the backmarkers to eat up their handicap
Thanks Kevin. I am still a standing start fan. It's great to see them get away from simply the standing position. I am memorised and very bored by watching mobile after mobile after mobile. I am talking from the viewpoint of what looks good. In theory you get
a dead heat in handicaps. If done reasonably, every horse gets a chance to win, so I don't agree that punters would be too aggrieved. It is hard to come from say 30 or 40, but there is heightened excitement to see a handicapped horse win, and also see a lesser horse win too good for owners etc too.. I'm also advocating standing starts to mix things up. We used to have mix in standing starts and mobiles at the Melb. Showgrounds as I recall.. it was great viewing. And most importantly you'd hope that you will get more trainers , drivers and owners winning rather than a concentrated few, simply because coming from behind can create more difficulties. So to me it's firstly about the spectacle.. ie mobiles and starts from absolute stop . The punters just have to wear any issues, and as as I say, a handicap in theory should result in dead heats . The industry is simply just doing what they are used to.. mobiles.. they need to mix things up.
I like stands and handicaps but if the powers that be are correct - it was costing us punters. Not really a punter anymore but do understand how it funds the industry and we have to compete with the dogs and the gallops where a runner rarely blows its chance at the start
It would seem that you cannot say "The punters just have to wear any issues" for punters will look elsewhere they say.
It was after the Hunter Cup in 2015 that it came to a head when the favourite Adore Me never got away. It was heavily pushed by some harness journalists but you have to imagine the uproar if the Melbourne Cup field was dispatched via a walk up start and the favourite didn't compete (it was pretty much the equivalent of that). Here is the race
http://www.harness.org.au/racing/fie...15#MXM07021501
ps Do you thinking a mobile handicap like I suggested in post 232 could work?
Yes I do think it might work. It should be put to the authorities along with what I propose too. You know the virus raises what is possible when people meet and share ideas like great scientists do. That's what CEOs new norm should
be. Roll up your sleeves, meet with people of passion and implement new things. That's the spirit. Invite people in, be inclusive. Great results can occur when you are inclusive. That's why we will get a vaccine more quickly for COVID-19 than we would have achieved years ago. People in leadership in all walks need to fully and openly and sincerely do that .
Yes looked at the race. It doesn't alter my opinion about what I say. Trainers certainly need to educate horses from day 1 of their lives. That's part of what harness racing is.
as . ,To dismiss it is part of the problem of holding fixed views
Can't see a mobile handicap ever working with the current batch of drivers and starters that are ignoring the rules and allowing so much cheating as it is. We need about 25% of races to be standing starts just so we can fairly combine all the classes into a race. With our current small horse pool we need stands more than ever.
A horse that has been racing week after week in mobiles and then lined up in a stand expecting them to get away smoothly is very dicey. They have been educated to anticipate the start in mobiles and to get to the lead as fast as they can then expecting them to stand patiently waiting for the start is asking a little too much - it is not the horse's fault. There is nothing that irritates me more at the trots than to see horses galloping out or breaking in a race such as our useless trotters over here ( trotting races in WA should be banned unless all held behind a mobile and even then we have gallopers) We have one trotter that is faultless and nearly always ends up in the money at good prices.
Many years ago before the introduction of mobile barriers at GP very few horses galloped out at the start it was a great spectacle I am not a fan of standing start races now and I'm sure the public isn't when a horse that they have backed cannot get away safely. Unless you have a very good stand horse don't nominate.
I did say that training for standing starts must/could begin as a horse is broken in, certainly to mix it in with it's learning, another one. I fear though that no one is really going to listen to me..they'll say "its too late to bring them back, horses broke or galloped too much so as punters they wouldn't accept it. I have seen quite a few horses breaking in mobiles too at present putting them out of the race. What I have noticed mostly though is that there are a large number of 1609 and 1720?? races...too many which are very short races so winning from the second row is harder. Many years ago the number of short races like 1609 could be counted on the fingers of one hand. I have to tell you that in my view, this significantly detracts from the racing spectacle. It is mesmorisingly boring. Watching the longer races is interesting. Scheduling standing starts ( after consultation ( and giving quite a lot if notice) makes these races very interesting . Remember I said mix it up. I also did not say ' introduce handicap standing starts overnight ' . But the authorities can approach drivers about all this . But remember that the trainers are not the only people to satisify. It's the people. The knockers often get entrenched in their views and I am sure that the overriding thought would be , " crowds wont come back" and ' we get funding mainly from the tab etc so I couldn't care what a racegoer thinks" BTW once upon a time, the miracle mile was a big spectacle, they are just another race now. In my strong view, the spectacle is so cloned, so process driven. They have got it very wrong.They'll get me and my friends returning if they do what I suggest. Even more significantly, standing starts add skill, horsemanship to the spectacle. Isn't that what we want.. I have seen in a number of posts criticism of drivers... so won't what I suggest change that somewhat. To present your own unique 'product' also called in marketing terms " product differentiation" That in short means having a different product to show .
I must admit that after I read Rod's comment above, I really felt disillusioned. I hope you at least reflect on everything I say here.
Rod may be right Terry
1609m dominance was IMO all about the fascination of posting fast times (to go on a horse's record), copying of the North American scene, and competing with the gallops and dogs codes who's races take less time (for broadcasting). Not that I can see how that is really relevant with the gallops as they take forever to get them in the barriers but then again they are the dominant code and the time generally goes hand in hand with previewing their race - something they don't really do for us.
A huge number of people would agree with you about continuous mile racing being boring but I cannot agree that the MM is just another race now (although I have said that it often falls flat and IMO that is due to it being a mile)
The people they need to get interested are also the young. I have rarely got to Melton and have only been to Menangle for one big night but I think they are endeavoring to attract families from their regions - I wouldn't know their crowd breakdowns. Some believe that where these 'metro' tracks are located is a big problem. The off track offering needs to compliment the racing as competition for the entertainment dollar is red hot nowadays. Time between races has to be utilized or reduced. Us oldies who used to be happy dashing up the concrete steps at the Showgrounds now want a good meal and a comfy seat :D. In this regard I can recommend a couple of tracks such as Ballarat. It has been along decades since I have been to Bendigo and Shepparton and must get there to see how they stack up nowadays.
You, I and everybody cannot be disillusioned by people who disagree as we don't know it all
Kevin I hear what you say, I do.
You raise the issue of crowd attraction. It is of course relevant. However the crowd issue is in fact a separate matter. Whats important is to list topics and tease each of these topics and flesh out points in a problem solving way. In the Quality Management world there is a tool called Ishikawa Diagram, also called Fishbone Diagram. This is a tool to facilitate identify key areas where inter-relationships exist. Where there are issues that cross overs, these become part of the equation to help arriving at potential solutions.
It's a shame you and me and others aren't heard.
Crowd attraction is difficult and does need a lot of discussion as indeed does the issue of the spectacle.
In my next post I an going to talk about AFL and Soccer and how it is difficult to get heard too about critically important issues.. I just can't seem to log on on my lap top. I find it painful and error prone to wrote posts on my phone as I do all the time
I don't like Peter Vallandi much.. But occasionally he says good things. He is in the news today re the Premier's decision not to proceed with an $800 million upgrade of the ANZ stadium in Sydney. He wants to spend good money on mostly regional places... this pleases the locals..youre doing more things at regional places rather than spending heaps on one stadium with the $800 million..though I think it would be less than 800 millions due to the need for dough everywhere...His idea about crowds is similar to your one. He says that places can become community assets , if the customer experience is a very good one... he said all.this today but of course he is talking about a code, rugby, ( although he might be thinking more broadly) the rugby code has more grip than Harness.. he talks about crowds of 20000. Despite the very cold place of Ballarat, I do agree with you, largely for the reason that Ballarat is a festival place, sport is a big thing there, and Eureka stuff is still powerful but should be even more powerful. The Council are proud, Premier Andrews was behind the AFL playing regionally there. The problem with Melton is that it has no soul, it's populated by families too buggered to go to Harness, plenty of undesirables etc etc. Melton Harness was thrown money to get its home track set up, but not a Zac was provided after that in essence. So in my view it has failed. It suits trainers to be at Melton, but if they are making a modest living... It's ok as far as they concerned.
Ballarat is s good choice.. Scheduling winter races requires more discussion but it's too cold in winter. The set up years ago was awful...The betting area was down in a low area ... I thought it shocking..but I am a fan of Ballarat. Meetings could be scheduled to dove tail in with an AFL game on the same day. Again though if Harness Racing ignores or only consults who it thinks it should, it will likely fail... of course if I dont see improving the spectacle like I suggest,I won't be interested . I am a good person to attract as living far away, I'd use Ballarat
accommodation, probably go to the sound and light show again (blood on the southern cross.. fabulous) and the sovereign hill dinner etc etc
Kevin, they will have to find money among competing interests. The AFL fanatics wherever they are, will want a lot of dough thrown at ground redevelopment for the footy ground.. And every govt is broke because of COVID so getting dough for Ballarat Harness will be exceedingly difficult . Pray to the Lord and get the rosary beads out too to pray to Our Lady
PS we here at albury wodonga suffer because of the tyranny of distance... forgotten, yet the region is large and earns a lot of money in agriculture.. But harness up here is not nascent, it's dying...
Finally, it's instructive to look at the demographics.Melb pop is 4.9 mill so is Sydney's rounding up . But when you compare pop in NSW and Vic , the difference is stark...8 mill in NSW and 6.49 mill. That suggest on the surface that NSW regions might attract more crowds because there are simply more people in the Regions.. though it's not that simple.. as NSW is so big. Lots of things for discussion... again such a pity we don't become part of the discussions.
.. you know I the next 10 years or less, people will demand to be consulted...im certain of that... so the position description of CEOs will mandate community consultation and expect these people to bring very very good data with them.
Hi Kev, you are right it's the younger brigade we have to entice back to harness racing it's going to be a struggle. A huge problem there is no media coverage or very little when it comes to harness racing unlike thoroughbreds so the Millenials just don't know much about it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Messenger
When I was a very young bloke back in the 70's newspaper coverage in WA was on par with the gallops. I used to cut out full-page ads advertising the horses/trots. Never liked the word trots it conjured up some bad images but no one called it harness racing back then. Remember running up the lawn embankment to the betting ring (barely legal gambling age) then over to the tote for my quinellas having no idea what I had in my hand then down to the rails close as I could get to the action. That's what we gotta get back to the fun and the excitement of the horses racing although big ask I think these days. I still have many newspaper cut-outs from way back showing the extent of marketing harness racing it would be a huge boost if we could replicate this today. I've posted a couple below circa 1968.
Hi Terry, you probably got stacks of Halwes pics but this is one I found after his Miracle Mile win 1968 (black and white, unfortunately). The caption below read: Tasmania's Pegasus on wheels, Halwes at Harold Park recently, Jack Watts, the doyen of Sydney trotting trainers, was even moved to say he might be better than Walla Walla.:cool:
Hi Kevin
Thanks so much I hadn't seen the words in the caption, so good to find something new. You know, the doyen of trotting In NSW, Jack Watts really knew who was the best horse horse ever in Australia. It was such a pity he was scratched in the 68 Inter.. he was so superior to any horse. I keep remembering that I never ever saw him weaken on any run. He was fast and training was different then, so forget the times of others, and nothing could beat him over 3000 m. Blacks a Fake didn't look like a top horse in running, but Halwes would beat him from the death seat if they met .. which of course couldn't happen
Thanks Rod :D
I know HRA http://www.harness.org.au/media-room/top-stories/#lead is the place for news
But searching for an announcement I looked at HRV's https://www.thetrots.com.au/news/articles/
When you hover on News on the homepage and select All News you will get 5 large pics/stories and 8 smaller pics/stories to choose from (on my desktop anyway)
BUT this site is wasting opportunity and somewhat insulting as the 5 large stories are from October 2019 ????!!!!! :confused:
I wrote a detailed post about harness and included a related and also detailed rationale about the notion of improvement in sport , it took me 40 minutes .. I lost all of it ... it is trying to recall it but it’s a goner. It included a very Very detailed Rationale about afl too... detailed arguments to improve that sport a lot.. all lost .. not happy
But in relation to standing starts. This is a bare bones summary of what I lost. I’d start to reintroduce them in the premier race .. the interdominion. I’d make the longest heat ( probably) a standing start. I’d give trainers notice to adjust 12 -18months . This would reintroduce the skills of horsemanship, diligence, persistence, patience and spectacle.. the miserable punter can then do their homework and see what trainers and horses do the work with selected horses and prepare them. You might have heats of pacing cups and also have a standing start in those. We need to get races with the top horses entered, so pacing cups and interdominions would contain a standing start You might have to shave small amounts of winning dividends of other races, or have meetings which drop of the last race to divert winnings to the premier races. If we get more horses like Poster Boy to enter the premier events, the better. The name Group 1 is well known but it’s not really a marketing term really, nor does it distinguish harness from thoroughbred racing. Having said all this, yes it’s improvement but not game changing. We need more Hunter Cups, we need more of those tortuous 3000 metre races and 3000 metre heats in big races .
Terry, you will have to convince the industry there is a benefit to returning to stand starts again - $$$
The top horses already target the premier events. The bigger the prize the more you attract. These big prizemoney events are already generally receiving more money than they bring in - money diverted from general revenue - people understand this and seem to agree with the system
Surely every job has a person who is responsible
It is now 10pm and the replays for the 7.30, 8.00 and 8.30 races at Terang are still not up
Still not up
Edit: Told they had internet issues last night and will be onto it today
I think the Melton – Country tracks combo Victoria have used during the lockdown should be the blueprint for the future
By that I mean, splitting the Metro prizemoney races between Friday and Saturday and between Melton and the big Regional tracks.
It gives followers 2 excellent meets to follow in 2 popular timeslots. They need to be the evening time slots (Mildura Friday night doesn’t really cut if for most)
Of course we have the Big country cups already and there will be some big nights of all Metro for Melton but for the majority of the weekends I think we should split the metro races between Melton and Major Regional – Friday and Saturday
Looks like the board could have some inside knowledge about the curfew being lifted or put back further !
The Melbourne curfew is now 9pm not that we had to follow it as drivers and trainers are going to work
One of the reasons we don't rank with the gallops is our performance
It needs to be best practice every time - I cannot understand why there isn't someone responsible to see that it is
Take todays Vic Cup barrier draw on Sky
Jason and Brittany are good performers but that was about it
The replays intro was poor quality video (even the recent ones)
I can just picture the great video the French would produce
If you are going to do ball and barrel barrier draws in future
get some large balls with black on yellow (or colour coded to match the race numbers)
There should have been a list of the field on display
and of course we should be able get an evening time slot even if it is 2 chunks of 10mins
If Sky won't come to the party, do it on TrotsVision (good to promote our own channel) and just give Sky a replay
I won't accept Covid as an excuse
Somehow I receive emails like this from the gallops
We should be doing something similar
Following on from the above, Do we care about getting people to the trots?
I left Horsham early last meet because it was too l-o-n-g between races
I would go to Maryborough on Thursday (despite it being 1˝hrs each way) but once again we have plenty of 40min gaps (even a 43min)
Imagine going to a concert and the band play one song and then take a 40 minute break - that is what we are offering attendees
We have debated Drivers Colours on the forum before and they are in the news again
http://www.harness.org.au/media-room...?news_id=47478
http://www.harness.org.au/media-room...?news_id=47457
Not going to debate it again but have to say, shouldn't the colours be clearly identifiable (without binocs) even when in the back straight - only a couple of those pictured stand out IMO
Maybe give them greyhounds colours.
I would like to throw up an idea on how to make Harness Racing fairer and potentially generate some new interest by doing something different.
I put the idea in a web-page to make it easier to explain.
http://pjdata.com.au/idea/