Harness racing shame

Quote:

Originally Posted by A BIT DUSTY

I did say I wasn't going to post anymore on this thread and was quite enjoying Old Franks Post until this little bit comes along.

The bigots who lambast him simply aren't good enough to train or drive like him and it's just jealousy at it's finest.

And you know what I seem to have read the same rhetoric from supporters of Ben Johnston, Marion Jones, Chris Gleeson , the Chinese Women's Swimming team, etc etc.etc
And those who dared to question their sudden improved performances where also portrayed by the ignorant in a similar fashion as this pathetic statement .

And you know what in all of that inspiring testimony ,I still didn't see an explanation for the dramatic improved performances.

Denny,
firstly i am a Victorian and dont claim to b an expert on NSW Trots...
However i see these points in Lukes favor that i see contributing to his success vs other trainers/drivers...
1. he spent a fair bit of time in the US driving for good trainers, u couldnt help but learn training methods for the US style of racing...
2. his brother Andy has been there for many years, do u reckon they dont talk and give each other ideas and knowledge?
2. oh look, Menangle is a 1400m track which predominantly has mile racing like the US, maybe Luke has a chance to use his skills in mile driving and training????
3. how often does he take horses to bathurst, wagga, penrith and the other SMALL OLD FASHIONED tracks that dont suit his horses who have been trained to the BIG TRACK mile racing? More to this point, he doesnt take them there because even if u have the best horse in the race, its easier to get beat because u r running around a saucepan and there are more chances of not getting out or pushed 6 wide around a 100m turn etc. (yes i have seen horses not get a run in the straight at Menangle!)
so, because he doesnt go to the "little" tracks and subsequesntly lose more races, he keeps a high winning strike rate at Menangle. Basic maths...pretty smart i reckon.
Just my 2 cents worth...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maorisidol

Denny,
firstly i am a Victorian and dont claim to b an expert on NSW Trots...
However i see these points in Lukes favor that i see contributing to his success vs other trainers/drivers...
1. he spent a fair bit of time in the US driving for good trainers, u couldnt help but learn training methods for the US style of racing...
2. his brother Andy has been there for many years, do u reckon they dont talk and give each other ideas and knowledge?
2. oh look, Menangle is a 1400m track which predominantly has mile racing like the US, maybe Luke has a chance to use his skills in mile driving and training????
3. how often does he take horses to bathurst, wagga, penrith and the other SMALL OLD FASHIONED tracks that dont suit his horses who have been trained to the BIG TRACK mile racing? More to this point, he doesnt take them there because even if u have the best horse in the race, its easier to get beat because u r running around a saucepan and there are more chances of not getting out or pushed 6 wide around a 100m turn etc. (yes i have seen horses not get a run in the straight at Menangle!)
so, because he doesnt go to the "little" tracks and subsequesntly lose more races, he keeps a high winning strike rate at Menangle. Basic maths...pretty smart i reckon.
Just my 2 cents worth...

ASH totally agree with every thing you said. ( although I think you'll find he has a near perfect record at Bathurst in the last couple of months)

cheers Denny

Quote:

Originally Posted by Old Frank

Well ABD, opinions are what everyone's entitled too, but your version of opinion is casting aspersions / innuendo based on nothing but 'smells a rat' theory and is poor form in most people's assessement.

Shoe on the other foot, I suppose you'd love people in your circle of life casting versions of 'opinion' on you based on the thought you 'smelt like a rat' hey? I wouldn't have thought you would?

If McCarthy or anyone for that matter get's a positive, well they have to be answerable to that and yes, you'd be right there with the "I told you so", but as facts stands, you've got nothing. (Sorry ABD, 'smells a rat' probably just doesn't stand up to a positive charge!)

I hope as stated before Luke and his team have nothing but continued success. I think he's great for harness racing and good luck to him.

P.S: And please don't go sulking along with your 53yr comment trying to take some high ground 'know better/know all' perspective. Fact stands, your argument was flawed and baseless, nothing more, nothing less.

Wouldn't matter if was 53yrs or 20yrs you can't argue against History, and History shows that over the years there has been plenty of loyal subjects just like you, who have blindly followed, only to be disappointed down the track .

I genuinely hope you are not one of them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by A BIT DUSTY

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Wouldn't matter if was 53yrs or 20yrs you can't argue against History, and History shows that over the years there has been plenty of loyal subjects just like you, who have blindly followed, only to be disappointed down the track .

I genuinely hope you are not one of them.

We'll agree to disagree ABD. There are plenty of great trainers over the years who have had great careers with no positives and to my mind, relying on simple effective methods. (Baldy Hancock comes to mind as not receiving a positive through his great career, I could be wrong, but certainly not off memory?)

Thanks for patronising me by being a 'loyal subject', but I do know the game having been involved previously and know there are plenty of trainers 'doing something', however I genuinally believe McCarthy's got his training methods right, getting plenty of stock coming into his barn at either the right grade, or with the right ability and not yet fully exposed so he improves it automatically under better training and driving, I think he's an exceptional driver and has a strong, committed staff, plus utilising superb facilities all working towards those horses being in the best shape going to the races.

Everyone will cast their 'opinion' on his success, but as I said in earlier posts, I think his 'success' isn't overnight as he was acheiving fantastic results in Brisbane, it's now because he is down here, a young man in his own right that we are seeing it first hand week-in, week-out so to speak.

Time will tell with where his career pans out, but he's the best thing to happen to harness racing in this state in 20yrs, no doubt.

Moari's,

Along with what ABD was saying, McCarthy has dominated on the recent nights he's gone to Bathurst, along with Wagga there one night where he had 3-4 winners off memory also. He's winning multiples at Newcastle as well when there and Penrith as well although seems to focus his energies on Menangle.

McCarthy brought the old set-up at Cobbitty that P.Walsh, followed by D.Wilson trained out of and both men had plenty of top-flight success training there. It's a superb half-mile track, balanced and cambered well and in my opinion, horses training down well on half-mile tracks only grow a leg then when going to the bigger tracks as it's even more comfortable racing on the bigger circuits. From what I hear Luke's also put another track down as well (maybe a heavier base for the galloping methods he utilises?) so by the sounds of it, along with his swimming facility there, he really has a top-notch, diverse set-up developing there.

Gone are the days of working them at your local track with two heats of two miles and then on off days, jogging for 40minutes.

'so, because he doesnt go to the "little" tracks and subsequesntly lose more races, he keeps a high winning strike rate at Menangle. Basic maths...pretty smart i reckon'

Ash, he goes go to the 'little' tracks. As Old Frank stated Bathurst,Wagga,Penrith,Newcastle, he also has 5 in at Maitland on Sat.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Old Frank

We'll agree to disagree ABD. There are plenty of great trainers over the years who have had great careers with no positives and to my mind, relying on simple effective methods. (Baldy Hancock comes to mind as not receiving a positive through his great career, I could be wrong, but certainly not off memory?)

Thanks for calling me a loyal subject, but I do know the game having been involved previously and know there are plenty of trainers 'doing something', however I genuinally believe McCarthy's got his training methods right, getting plenty of stock coming into his barn at either the right grade, or with the right ability and not yet fully exposed so he improves it automatically under better training and driving, I think he's an exceptional driver and has a strong, committed staff, plus utilising exceptional facilities all working towards those horses being in the best shape going to the races.

Everyone will cast their 'opinion' on his success, but as I said in earlier posts, I think his 'success' isn't overnight as he was acheiving fantastic results in Brisbane, it's now because he is down here, a young man in his own right that we are seeing it first hand week-in, week-out so to speak.

Time will tell with where his career pans out, but he's the best thing to happen to harness racing in this state in 20yrs, no doubt.

Nathan as I have said countless times I am actually a fan of Lukes
This all started when I made a comment that I had never seen such dramatic improvements on this scale, the likes of Mandy Rambo no wins last 10 strs at places like Young, Wagga, Canberra etc and then wins eight out of 13 all at menangle in sensational fashion, Artifactor no wins last 17strs for B Hancock then wins 1st start for Luke .Roman Stride had not won in it's last 7 strs for N Day but wins 6 out of 8 including a 2nd for Luke.

My mistake was saying "if he is achieving these results on training alone then he is the best trainer we have ever seen" and it has Snowballed to were it is now .

I certainly did not accuse Luke of using Drugs, ( and clearly stated that in an earlier post) I now see that some people may have seen it that way,, but as I started to get attacked for MY opinion I started to get my back up.

The more people gave me, the more I felt I had to respond as my response to the( jealous bigot comment,)was " I remember supporters of those disgraced sportsman saying the same"
As with anyone who is passionate about something I probably go over board sometimes when trying to make a point , ( something that I will try to curb).

So for the second time I'll Retire from this subject and hope that Luke goes on to greatness.

Quote:

Originally Posted by peteboss4

'so, because he doesnt go to the "little" tracks and subsequesntly lose more races, he keeps a high winning strike rate at Menangle. Basic maths...pretty smart i reckon'

Ash, he goes go to the 'little' tracks. As Old Frank stated Bathurst,Wagga,Penrith,Newcastle, he also has 5 in at Maitland on Sat.

Peteboss and Old Frank... "firstly i am a Victorian and dont claim to b an expert on NSW Trots..."
I hear ya...
My point being he primarily concentrates on Menangle as his mainstay, after all that's why he moved from Qld...No Menangle no Luke...

Quote:

Originally Posted by A BIT DUSTY

Nathan as I have said countless times I am actually a fan of Lukes
This all started when I made a comment that I had never seen such dramatic improvements on this scale, the likes of Mandy Rambo no wins last 10 strs at places like Young, Wagga, Canberra etc and then wins eight out of 13 all at menangle in sensational fashion, Artifactor no wins last 17strs for B Hancock then wins 1st start for Luke .Roman Stride had not won in it's last 7 strs for N Day but wins 6 out of 8 including a 2nd for Luke.

My mistake was saying "if he is achieving these results on training alone then he is the best trainer we have ever seen" and it has Snowballed to were it is now .

I certainly did not accuse Luke of using Drugs, ( and clearly stated that in an earlier post) I now see that some people may have seen it that way,, but as I started to get attacked for MY opinion I started to get my back up.

The more people gave me, the more I felt I had to respond as my response to the( jealous bigot comment,)was " I remember supporters of those disgraced sportsman saying the same"
As with anyone who is passionate about something I probably go over board sometimes when trying to make a point , ( something that I will try to curb).

So for the second time I'll Retire from this subject and hope that Luke goes on to greatness.

Anyone is free to make an opinion however you can't make facts. Just look at the raw facts and you will see that his improvements are similar to that made using performance enhancing drugs. Read Thomas Tobins books on the percentage improvements that he gets using various drugs. A lot of trainers use drugs/treatments and some are legal. I don't know and I bet that none of you know whether LM's are legal or just not detectable.
Read some literature or review results of human/equine performances over time. It usually takes a long time to make big improvements. This is the point that Denny is trying to make. It's an old book, however see how long it took Tom Iver's to get improvements through interval training. This might put things into perspective for a few people.
The other thing is that LM makes big improvements on race fit horses which is hard to do. Usually when a horse changes stable, it will go off it's feed and be unsettled for a few weeks. So then, this is the hardest time to get the biggest improvements.
There is so much BS on this forum about LM having better day yards, tracks, yardsticks, swimming holes, blacksmiths, driving styles, selection of horses etc. Doesn't any other trainer have these things? They help but don't account for the scale of improvements that he makes in the time that he makes them.
LM is smart enough to drive his horses to their ability and doesn't drive the slower ones in the same way.
Doesn't the likes of Fitzpatrick, Day etc. know how to train horses anymore? They buy and train well bred horses and just aren't in the game at the moment against LM.
Some mention that LM gallops and swims them. Yeah, we'll I would too because it saves a whole lot of time versus gearing a horse up with hopples when you have so many horses in work. I'm not sure that it's just because it's a better way to work them.
Take a step back without emotion and look at the raw facts. Speak to anyone involved in sport performance and discuss the results that this guy is getting. If they are without drugs then they defy alot of science and knowledge around sports training/performance.
Whether he's using drugs or not then it doesn't bother me. I just think that it's funny when we see such results and so many people think that it's impossible that he's using PED's. It's just as possible that he's using them as it is that he's not.
There is a rule in Harness racing requiring a log book of all treatments. Maybe a steward should sit posted for 3 weeks/24/7 to see if LM's log book is consistent with what he actually gives them. Then we won't need to bother to try and detect anything and could make a judgement on the use or non use of undetectable drugs.

Slightly off topic Jett...but Tom Ivers? As far as equine related mythological beasts go...his Interval Training & Carbo Loading mantras, they were up at the top of the list along with Jack Walmsley's Cycle Breeding theory.