VVV & Mightymo
I agree to run races for fillies and mares no matter how many starters at full prize money maybe run it as a non TAB race like they do for the trotters and to keep the TAB happy run a full field at half prize money people will soon hook into line.
G'day Nat,
Having somewhat but by no means fully expunged my extreme levels of frustrations over this subject in post #283, I'm growing increasingly confident that things will soon begin to improve dramatically, at least as far as fillies & mares racing opportunities in NSW are concerned anyway. Hopefully other States will then follow suit with a similar focus.
Now, one more time just in case anyone missed it.
WE DON'T NEED TO BREED MORE FOALS, WE NEED TO MAKE BETTER USE OF THE FORGOTTEN 50% OF THE ONES THAT WE ARE ALREADY PRODUCING, THE FILLIES & MARES.
Hi VVV
You have me believing you I have 5 fillies and mares of different ages to race, 2 are over age racing and the other 3 are weanling, yearling and 2yld now the sad part is once they are over aged racing unless they are extremely good they will sit in the paddock till they are bred or moved on. So how many owner breeders are out there like me that have these horses in the paddocks I see so many good mares always running a good race that just cannot crack it against the stallions & geldings
agree with nat. under the current system we do need more foals, but only colts.
It's clear from the report that they don't have any major plans to increase racing chances for females so we need to keep breeding big numbers.
Firstly, much love to VVV.Quote:
Originally Posted by gutwagon
Now Gutwagon...why would a breeders report focus on race programming? :s
Maybe we could sex breed them like dairy cattle but in a role reversal just for colts and just have a 30-50 good mares that we embryo flush and do embryo transfers to the top stallions every year for our foal numbers
PS. I'm only taking the piss before anyone takes my comment seriously
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Ua-7YpUtPAQuote:
Originally Posted by aussiebreno
Hey BrenoQuote:
Originally Posted by aussiebreno
I couldn't honestly tell you the reason for the big drop in mare's being served in n.z the reason it was sent to me is we were discussing the drop in mare's being served in Aus whilst i was in n.z and he said n.z just hit an all time low so he sent it through to highlight how big of a drop it was compared to other years.
Well maybe they could see that half the horses we breed are being wasted just because of their sex !Quote:
Originally Posted by aussiebreno
They also should be looking at the industry as a whole , not dividing it up and only trying to help one section that they have financial interests in .
Lance Justice: the drop in foal numbers would correspond perfectly with the withdrawal of the nz governments support that was boosting prizemoney, ie the 600k nz great northern derby
I doubt that there is any linkage here. A former minister put up $3 million per annum initially to have a few elite $1 million races provided the clubs and codes matched the funding. Hence the $2 million NZ Derby for t'breds. It was a very poisonous chalice. Harness NZ negotiated a better deal that spread the money over about ten Group 1 races. The funding ended last season.
The reasons for the drop in numbers according to our NZSBA survey of 500 breeders were (a) drop in stakes primarily due to a significant drop in wagering in NZ over the last two years due to GFC, (b) rises in costs associated with breeding (vets, working fees etc), (c) stallion fees, (d) people being cautious with money after GFC and Christchurch earthquakes (50% breeders in Greater Canterbury) (e) the loss of over $7 million in funding from the community trust disributing pokie profits, and (f) a general negative feeling towards racing.
The prime boost to stakes four years ago came when the then government reduce industry taxation to match that of the pokies.
John Mooney
Lance, agree regarding losses to overseas corporate bookmakers and the like, about $50 - $70 million missing from stakes to all three codes on some estimates. Not just TAB down though, spend on pokies down also. And yes there are NZ TAB issues that need to be resolved, big ones. Cheers John
Given all the shit that has emerged in NSW in the last 2 days makes you wonder why anyone wants to race harness horses at all, doesn't matter where they come from.
It looks like horse numbers is even a bigger problem in NZ. They are so worried about whats happening in Aust, they fail to see the problem in their own back yard.
A second MEETING(in just the last few weeks) has been cancelled next week due to insufficient nominations. Not to mention all the trials that have been cancelled recently as well.
it appears that so many horses are being exported, they cant even fill fields.
Midfrew - whats going on?
Roosters, not sure. Trying to work it out by getting the numbers together from vaious sources. In addition to the above Forbury could only muster seven races and this Sunday at Rangiora was not overly full on the noms. Hopefully just seasonal. But I fear given the drop in foal numbers and almost 800 exports to Australia we may have a problem. Perhaps we need an Export Fee! Going to be hard to fill 12-race programs from mid March next year when harness becomes a Thursday to Sunday sport.
John
Midfrew the other way to look at it - does NZ really need these 14/15/16/17 horse fields?
It appears that all horse codes in many countries around the world are experiencing a similar decline. Not all places, but many. Maybe it quite simply is a sign of the times and the huge foal numbers from years gone by are simply an abherration in the modern day.
It goes without saying that racing isn't as popular as it once was. I had a lunch this week with a bloke who was 74. He owned gallopers and he said his dad (whom would be say +/- 100 now) and all his mates were all into racing. All of them. So through sheer wieght of numbers, we have to expect some sort of decline because there are so many challenges to it as a relaxation / hobby medium.
In this day and age you can get a stack of entertainment for very, very little outlay. Look at what SKY channel provides in terms of sport coverage. The kids of today are growing up with sports betting and a bucketload of sports, while up to 30/40 years ago it was all about racing.
Maybe we have to realise that our position on the sporting landscape is smaller than what it currently is.
exactly BM, everyone i know that punts, punts on sports or pokies, sports through multi\\\'s and pokies when there pissed
never on the trots, a very small number on the greyhounds - they love the lottery factor
Post #304 and #305 exacty. I yearn for the day every track has a restaurant / bar on premises just to get people near the track.
perth last night 109 starters 56 from new zealand 50 percent imported
All good for the Australian Breeding Industry must make breeder's in the west feel rosey seeing this and some people wonder why this report was done to try and assist breeder'sQuote:
Originally Posted by trigger
TBM, do not disagree about the big fields. What the wagering turnover figures do prove conclusively is that you need 12+ equally rated horses in a field to maximise turnover. Drop even one or two below 12 and the wagering drops by a greater proportion.
Your second point is on the money. My personal biggest concern is not the lack of foal numbers but the diminishing number of owners. This is one reason why I think HRA is crazy to deter cheap purchases of going horses from NZ with the Import Fee because access to NZ enables current and new owners to get into and/or stay in the industry relatively cheaply, and have a chance of a win!
One figure I would like to see published is total number of NZ imports that had at least one start in a race v. total number that recorded a win for the last five years. I suspect that the percentage is very high. We all know, as you pointed out in an earlier post, that the sport/industry is for enthusiasts who like to win races. An NZ import increases your chances of winning.
Firstly Midfrew I find your insights to the NZ side of things really interesting so thanks for posting them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Midfrew
From what I understand here in Australia 12 is roughly considered the near optimal level of runners in a race. Personally I think 12 is too many, 10 for mine but if the general punting public vote with their dollars it must be closer to 12. I just don't get these 14-15-16-17 horse fields. I really don't. Where's the good for the sport in the eyes of the punter if your horse is buried 8 fence?
I have said it so many times before over the years but the biggest failings of harness racing has been the simple neglect of keeping owners in the sport or enticing new ones.
The only time people hear about harness racing is when there is scandal like whats going on in NSW. Its the only time people hear about it. The problem with promotion is that the local papers now seem to demand payment for carrying printed material related to racing. A massive change from the olden days where if your paper didn't carry a form guide, then its popularity would diminish. Apparently TABcorp pay for the racing supplements and so forth to appear in the major papers. Thats why harness racing gets so little coverage, it is a backwater and the TAB seem to revel in promoting it as that (because they love the churn and burn of greyhound races at every available second).
Harness racing has failed to play to its great strengths - affordability and proximity to the races. The fact that the horses go slower due to their gate means you can actually catch the last 400m and revel in it against the gallops that start as blips on the horizon and go past you so fast you barely know whom has won (live on track that is).
Harness racing as part of the sporting and social landscape has diminshed so so quickly. We have to realise that. I think foal numbers reflect that, the massive drops in registered people (about to get bigger in NSW :eek:) and drop in the numbers of owners is simply a sign of the times. Problem is - as the report suggests with the foal drops - is that it could become a self-fulfilling prophecy if things are not arrested on all fronts.
The brilliant increases in prizemoney at Menangle only paper over the cracks in the greater harness racing fabric. If the sport did not own Harold Park, it would be dead and buried in NSW within 30 years.
I think we all have to wake up and realise thar harness racing simply isn't as popular as it was, it is clearly and ageing sport with no overtures to entice younger people into the game and with the competition for the entertainment dollar the ability to entice new people into it is rapidly diminishing.
This is why anything that potentially decreases the possiblity of ownership has to be opposed. I sympathise with the breeders plight, I have made that known on more than one occassion. But when you have an avenue - that I will stake my life on has brought more people into the sport than the purchase of yearlings, being partially shut off, it quite simply cannot be good for the sport.
I was not born into the sport. I fell into it by accident. The amount of people that happens to these days is rarer than an iceberg in the Sahara. The greatest shame is, when you showcase it to people whom haven't experienced it before, greater than 90% say how much they love it. Biggest problem - and I lay the blame squarely at the feet of the sports administrators - is the failure to capitalise on those initial impressions. Its left to current owners themselves to do all the work if they can be bothered.
This very subject grates me badly......
Call me a Heretic however the more I think about it the more it makes sense to me that HRA should flip the import charges on their head. Put 5k on the hit-runners /short term stays and charge the permanents $250 or whatever it is.Quote:
Originally Posted by Midfrew
Well done big fella, there's hope for you yet!Quote:
Originally Posted by triplev123
Nearly 2 years ago I convinced 3 new people to get involved in a horse, he was a yearling that had broken in nicely so a few hurdles were jumped. Needless to say he then developed breathing problems and after a couple of enforced lay offs he has finally got to the point of trialing, 1 month short of turning 4.
There's absolutely no doubt in my mind that when getting new folk involved you want an up and ready to run horse, preferably at the races. I took a chance, not that we're not out of the woods yet, but had he not shown us what he can do in his latest trials I would have lost all three them. Thankfully it seems to be turning out OK and one of them has already brought along his in-laws and interest is being shown. I know for certain if they want to buy one it will have NZ next to his name!
Regards
Mark
Here's a thought
Import fee $1200 x 700 = $840,000 ( $2500 for short stay horses not included in import no )
Foals Born 7000 x $50 = $350,000
Fillies Born 3500 x $25 = $87,500 (extra on top of foal payment )
Fillies Raced 3500 x $50 = $175,000 (to be paid by whoever races the horse must be paid for filly to be eligible for bonus )
= $1,452,000
Shortfall to be made up from industry fund's from each state
This was just a thought as a breeder and owner who races i would be happy to pay the above fees to support mare's and fillies first win bonus races on 2,3,4yo races for horses bred in Aus
these are only guesstimates on the number of fillies raced as being half of the foal's born and yes people who breed and race fillie's will pay more than other's
i think breeders crown would fight you on the import fee that way greg, they'd lose every single nz horse from nominations
a VERY simple solution, allow breeders to use sperm sorting to breed the sex of horse they want - if you race your horses and like colts surely you will breed more if you are 90% sure of getting a colt and vice a versa for fulltime filly breeders/retainers... some drawbacks obviously with increase cost and not everyone has the technology that was designed for dairy cows and would also be a concentration of families
maybe its better having less fillies bred over all ; if a higher % of those fillies race for 5 years and then have 10 foals??/ thoughts people
It was just a thought as i haven't seen any other suggestion's and was just putting it out there to see if their was any other possibilities to raise fund's.
These were just number's to see where it was possible to raise the fund's from to support the mares bonus scheme if something isn't done to try and help promote our breeding industry we will be in trouble in a few year's timePeople seemed to think that the short stay horse's were the one's taking all the money any that come for the Breeder's Crown would be able afford the fee at whatever price.
Their has been a steady decline in number's bred for the last 20 year's i know of probably up to 25 people who no longer breed and that is just in my area because of poor return's not only from selling horse's but also from prizemoney we won a race in 1989 and got $1400 first money and still don't get that at graduation meeting's and just a touch more at restricted meeting's if you win. I know just in my immediate family their is at least 15 foal's not being bred due to the return's versus outlay.
Hi Greg
Return's versus outlay's that can be a worry, but i also think people's selection in stallion's play a big part in this problem. To many people want A- Major, Bettor's and M 3's and there expensive they should be looking at tried and proven or up comming stallion's at the $3k-$4k mark where it's not a huge outlay and they still have a great chance of a return, there is some value there with horses as Armbro Operative, Village Jasper, Aces, Live or Die, Changeover, Santanna Blue Chip, Art Official, Alway's A Virgin and the list goes on. Some time's you just have to go to the one you can afford and not the one you want.
Mainly talking about prizemoney return's
Quote:
Originally Posted by doubled123
[VVV] Who gives a bugger? At the same time the Kiwis have steadfastly made it virtually impossible for an Oz owned/performed horse to get into the Jewels...and they continue to block the use of Oz made racebikes. Nice. It's a two way street Trooper. At the moment it is ALL one way Traffic.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mango
[VVV] Right now I reckon that Artistic Fella is by far & away the most BANG you can get for your $. You get a Hell of a lot of horse for not a whole lot of $. This time around he's only $4,000 less multiples...and his weanlings just about to turn yearlings look really good too.