Frozen Semen v Fresh Semen

I have never been a big fan of frozen semen but some stallions have been sucessful with only their frozen semen available in NZ. Artsplace is one that springs to mind. However the success enjoyed by the stock of Majestic Sons 2yr olds has once again confirmed to me that fresh is better. Two small crops via frozen semen totaling 13 foals for two winners did little to suggest that his first crop of foals from fresh semen would dominate the 2yr old sire rankings as they have this season. On type they look like time will only help them so maybe, just maybe the next sire superstar has arrived. Back in the flesh next season and standing for $5000 means other sires at the top end may struggle for mares. So for me all this episode has reaffirmed is that fresh is best

I dont share your concerns about frozen semen. My only issue is that frozen semen generally is not as fertile and the costs are higher. However, I dont believe there to be any difference in ability in the resultant progeny.

Muscles Yankee and Love You have both done exceptionally well down under with only frozen semen

For two stallions who have been leading sire in their respective countries i think both have under performed in NZ. Love You has been a super sire in France but has been slighty dissapointing in nz. 40 foals 3yr old or older for 4 good enough to win an age group classic not that four have. He received the very best mares yet has not reproduced his European dominance in NZ. Muscles Yankee has been a great percentage sire in NZ but if not for one horse in I Can Doosit he would been classed as a big underachiever in NZ. 80 plus foals for 2 $100,000 earners is not a shadow of his dominance in America. I would have loved both sires to have come down in the flesh and I know that Ernie Martinez thought long and hard about Muscles Yankees last season but European money won the day. I wish to make it very clear i am not knocking either horse. I hold both in high regard but am convinced their contribution to NZ racing could be so much bigger if they stood in NZ rather than using frozen semen

Hi Viv

I think it's hard for stallion's that are only available to us using frozen semen, they don't get to serve the number's of other stallion's and for me it's purely a number's game. More foal's on the ground more winner's. I might be wrong but wasn't Bettor's first 3-4 crops to race out here using frozen semen and if it was he got some very handy horses. SBSW was frozen for the first 3yrs so given time it will be interesting to see how they perform.

I also do not share Viv's concerns regarding frozen semen.
Bettor's Delight sired a NZ 2yo colt (Highview Tommy) and a NZ 2yo filly (Arden's Delight) from a very small frozen semen derived crop...(20-25) or somewhere there. In the same vein, from 30 frozen semen derived foals produced over 4 seasons from 2003/2004 through 2006/2007, he sired 19 winners of $1.51 million.
Similarly, Muscles Yankee has done an exceptional job here in AUS with 20 starters, 14 winners of over $1.6mil, average earnings of over 69k, from just 31 foals of racing age.

IMO, there is no evidence to support the belief that horses resulting from frozen semen are any better or any worse than those who are not.
Bettors Delight in particular was extremely successful, as has been Muscles Yankee and SJ's Photo.
13 foals are not enough to draw any valid conclusions.
A list of top horses bred down under via frozen semen would be impressive if I had the time to put one together.

The Nz experience is way different. When Muscles Yankee was first made available to Nz breeders he stood at $20,000 and attracted in excess of 50 mares in his first season. That halved in subsequent seasons as breeders waited to see how they went.The results were mixed. A lot of nice horses but no stars. In his next six seasons in Nz he attracted a total of 28 mares which reflected how he was seen in the marketplace. I Can Doosit has changed that in the last two years but even at $9000 he has only averaged 20 mares a season. I have no doubt at all that if he shuttled to Nz he would serve 100+. Why the difference if frozen or fresh is the same. Artsplace is probably the next most sucessful sire via frozen semen in Nz but again his results in Nz are not a shadow of what he has achieved in North America. Leading sire several times, $200,000,000+in earnings, Sire of Sires, the pacing equivalent of Muscles Yankee. So how has he gone in Nz. Over 150 foals, the best of them being Twist and Twirl who was top class.But their impact was minor compared to his record. His sons are doing a great job in Nz so its not an issue of the sireline not working in nz. There are numerous examples of sires who have served mares in Nz via frozen semen who when shuttled to Nz serve numbers way in excess of what they had done previously via frozen. Muscle Mass is the latest. With his oldest crop of 5 via frozen semen unraced, he shuttled to Nz this year and served 70 at $5000. So there is an obvious resistance to frozen semen in Nz and all the breeding numbers back that up. Are our expectations too high. Maybe. But until a stallion via frozen semen dominates our racing scene, the status quo will remain.

People will tell you that racing is a numbers game and here again you can make the number support any viewpoint if you choose the right ones.
Taking stats of the two stallions mentioned and how they have performed in NZ IMO it bears the numbers game viewpoint out, but I don't think it bears out much else. Against these and other aforementioned stats it should be remembered that access to frozen semen is much more restricted numerically as opposed to fresh / chilled semen. In my experience the numbers of breeders lining up for frozen shots for their mares is not to be sneezed at when taking into account the overall numbers being bred.

Muscles Yankee
Services 147
Live foals 86
% 59.7%
906 starters 153 wins,126 seconds, 87 thirds,....$2,408,928
I Can Doosit's offering ....47 starts, 30..4..4.......$1,047,117
The $1million + earned by the remainder 106..122..83..is IMO a reflection on the poor stakes and racing opportunities available to trotters in NZ.

Artsplace
Services 245
Foals 154
64.2%
1219 starts, 155wins, 148seconds, 137 thirds....$1,792,312
Twist and Twirl has only earned $234,095 from her 17starts for 5..2..4

In Australia,

Muscles Yankee is sire of 32 foals of racing age, total earnings is $1.38 million, average earnings is $43k, winners include Let Me Thru $453k, Lord of The Gym $262k, Down Under Muscles $217k, Magic Interest $142k
SJ's Photo is sire of 65 foals of racing age, total earnings is $3.05 million, average earnings is $47k, winners include A Touch of Flair $569k, Bad Boy Paparazzi $419k, Elegant Image $223k, Marong $220k, Just Glorious $191k, Flase Gem $178k, Zesta $143k, Calder Sensation $143k
Pine Chip is sire of 4 foals, total earnings is $502k, average earnings is $125k, winners include Sumthingaboutmaori $461k
Artsplace is sire of 51 foals of racing age, total ewarnings of $1.78 million, average earnings of $37k, winners include Flightpath $290k, Guaranteed $243k, Veranjee $211k, Governor Art $188k, Dougs Place $162k
Western Hanover is sre of 17 foals, total earnings of $1.00 million, average earnings of $59k, winners include Camlach $367k, Petousa $180k, Wild Wild West $136k
Grinfromeartoear is sire of 26 foals by frozen semen, winners include Make Me Smile $517k, Kyalla Dreamtime $136k, Karloo Titian $104k

Bettors Delight frozen semen progeny include HIghview Tommy $1006k, Bettor's Strike $890kl, Emjayem Grand $389k, Percy The Punter $332k, Vegas Bound $274k
Life Sign frozen semen progeny include For Dear Life $322k, Real Life $308k, Money Twitch $345k, Akido Whitby $270k, Life In The Fast Lane $264k, Way of Life $238k, Mister Anthony $231k

Who thinks these stallions would have done better with fresh semen ? Not me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by teecee

People will tell you that racing is a numbers game and here again you can make the number support any viewpoint if you choose the right ones.
Taking stats of the two stallions mentioned and how they have performed in NZ IMO it bears the numbers game viewpoint out, but I don't think it bears out much else. Against these and other aforementioned stats it should be remembered that access to frozen semen is much more restricted numerically as opposed to fresh / chilled semen. In my experience the numbers of breeders lining up for frozen shots for their mares is not to be sneezed at when taking into account the overall numbers being bred.

Muscles Yankee
Services 147
Live foals 86
% 59.7%
906 starters 153 wins,126 seconds, 87 thirds,....$2,408,928
I Can Doosit's offering ....47 starts, 30..4..4.......$1,047,117
The $1million + earned by the remainder 106..122..83..is IMO a reflection on the poor stakes and racing opportunities available to trotters in NZ.

Artsplace
Services 245
Foals 154
64.2%
1219 starts, 155wins, 148seconds, 137 thirds....$1,792,312
Twist and Twirl has only earned $234,095 from her 17starts for 5..2..4

You make some valid points Tony with regards to limited semen for some stallions and the earnings potential of horses in Nz. I have sold numerous horses to Australia who have had earnt $100,000+ over there where as they would never have earnt half that here. I just think anyone looking at the performance of the sires in North America via fresh semen and the performance of the same sires in nz via frozen semen who cant see the enormous difference in quality that is so apparent doesnt want to see. These stallions have revolutionised the standardbred breed in North America and lifted the breed. Their stock have not done that in Nz.

Quote:

Originally Posted by eliteblood

In Australia,

Muscles Yankee is sire of 32 foals of racing age, total earnings is $1.38 million, average earnings is $43k, winners include Let Me Thru $453k, Lord of The Gym $262k, Down Under Muscles $217k, Magic Interest $142k
SJ's Photo is sire of 65 foals of racing age, total earnings is $3.05 million, average earnings is $47k, winners include A Touch of Flair $569k, Bad Boy Paparazzi $419k, Elegant Image $223k, Marong $220k, Just Glorious $191k, Flase Gem $178k, Zesta $143k, Calder Sensation $143k
Pine Chip is sire of 4 foals, total earnings is $502k, average earnings is $125k, winners include Sumthingaboutmaori $461k
Artsplace is sire of 51 foals of racing age, total ewarnings of $1.78 million, average earnings of $37k, winners include Flightpath $290k, Guaranteed $243k, Veranjee $211k, Governor Art $188k, Dougs Place $162k
Western Hanover is sre of 17 foals, total earnings of $1.00 million, average earnings of $59k, winners include Camlach $367k, Petousa $180k, Wild Wild West $136k
Grinfromeartoear is sire of 26 foals by frozen semen, winners include Make Me Smile $517k, Kyalla Dreamtime $136k, Karloo Titian $104k

Bettors Delight frozen semen progeny include HIghview Tommy $1006k, Bettor's Strike $890kl, Emjayem Grand $389k, Percy The Punter $332k, Vegas Bound $274k
Life Sign frozen semen progeny include For Dear Life $322k, Real Life $308k, Money Twitch $345k, Akido Whitby $270k, Life In The Fast Lane $264k, Way of Life $238k, Mister Anthony $231k

Who thinks these stallions would have done better with fresh semen ? Not me.

Trevor, those same stallions just havnt cut it in Nz

Western Hanover-----21 foals ----No $100,000 earners

Life Sign----232 foals---- 2 $100,000 earners

Pine Chip----14 foals----No $100,000 earners

SJs Photo----33 foals--- 1 $100,000 earners

Artsplace----154foals----6$100,000 earners

Muscles Yankee--86---- 2 $100,000 earners

Every stallion listed above has underperformed in Nz compared to North America. And the difference is huge.

I dont know how to explain the reason for it, but that doesnt mean frozen semen hasnt been as good, it just hasnt been any good in NZ.

Clearly in Aust frozen semen has been every bit as successful as fresh semen

Agree Harvey. There seems to be major differences between the two countries. Very difficult to explain how that could be.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Viv Strangman

Agree Harvey. There seems to be major differences between the two countries. Very difficult to explain how that could be.

I think there are a couple of things to note :

When you are looking at NZ results and suggesting that Muscles Yankee for example has only one horse of note, you are missing horses exported to Australia, including another top class trotter in Skyvalley. Besides Twist and Twirl, Artsplace has sired in NZ horses like Strike Up The Band $204k, Flles Like Magic $169k, Sir Artsplace $166k, Jacka Twain $161k.

When evaluating the performance of Artsplace and his 154 NZ bred foals, keep in mind that they are racing against large crops of foals by Christian Cullen, Bettors Delight, Mach Three and Art Major. Don't underestimate how good these stallions are. These horses are world class with BD, MT and AM currently 1st, 4th and 6th in the current season all aged standings. Note also, it is a long time since Artsplace dominated the northern hemisphere breeding scene.

Trevor, they didnt race against the large crops of BD--MT or AM. They raced against the ITP, CC, FS. And not very well im afraid. The four horses you mentioned were not classic horses. The term we use in Nz is intermediate grade which pretty much sums up his record in Nz. At the time he was widely used in Nz , he was the leading sire in North America for several years. He just didnt reproduce anything like that in Nz.

Artsplace live foal numbers in NZ were 2004 (16), 2005 (29), 2006 (20), 2007 (23), 2008 (44).
Although he was leading sire in NA in 97, 98, 99, 00, 02 and 03, at the time he was being used down here and falling short of expectations, he had also curiously stopped producing top horses in USA.
If you think Artsplace was disappointing, have a look at Abercrombie's results in Australia, also a leading NA sire on several occasions, bred to the best of the best broodmares in Australia.
I've bred quiet a number of frozen semen foals (Abercrombie, Artsplace, Jenna's Beach Boy, Western Hanover, Somebeachsomewhere, Life Sign, Bettors Delight, Grinfromeartoear, Artiscape, Arturo) and my personal results have been very poor so I understand where you are coming from. I don't however hold "frozen semen" responsible. There are plenty of good results achieved by other stallions to indicate to me that frozen semen works as well as fresh semen and that the disappointing results of Artsplace and Abercrombie in particular were just two of breeding mysteries. You don't know that they would have done any better in the flesh, none of the ones who have subsequently come out have performed any differently to what they did as frozen semen sires.
Incidentally, the same knock used to exist in the early days of artificial insemination with the old school arguing that the offspring were somehow inferior to those conceived by natural breeding.

Its just that the record here in Nz is so poor. Their will always be sires who dont cross here for some unknown reason. But the difference between the results achieved in Australia and that achieved in Nz with frozen semen are poles apart. Why i have no idea at all. But the facts here dont lie. Anything new in this industry will always attract its share of knockers but frozen semen has been around for ages now but in Nz the knock hasnt gone away

Another Artspalce

Quote:

Originally Posted by eliteblood

I think there are a couple of things to note :

When you are looking at NZ results and suggesting that Muscles Yankee for example has only one horse of note, you are missing horses exported to Australia, including another top class trotter in Skyvalley. Besides Twist and Twirl, Artsplace has sired in NZ horses like Strike Up The Band $204k, Flles Like Magic $169k, Sir Artsplace $166k, Jacka Twain $161k.

When evaluating the performance of Artsplace and his 154 NZ bred foals, keep in mind that they are racing against large crops of foals by Christian Cullen, Bettors Delight, Mach Three and Art Major. Don't underestimate how good these stallions are. These horses are world class with BD, MT and AM currently 1st, 4th and 6th in the current season all aged standings. Note also, it is a long time since Artsplace dominated the northern hemisphere breeding scene.

Another Artsplace is Carpenters Daughter $168k

Quote:

Originally Posted by Simple One

Another Artsplace is Carpenters Daughter $168k

She is one of the six $100,000 winners to have been bred and raced in Nz from his 154 live foals.I am sure the breeders of those 154 foals were hoping Artsplace would leave a colt like Art Major 2.7m--Grinfromeartoear1.7m--Sportswriter1.5m--Artiscape1.4m-- Dreamaway1.3m or a filly like Worldly Beauty1.9m--Glowing Report1.9m-- Galliera1.8m--Steinams Place1.4m--Armbro Amoretto1.2m. For a stallion that left 44 in 1:50 and 17 millionaires in North America, his record of 6 $100,000 winners in Nz is not an indication of what a sensational sire he was.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Viv Strangman

She is one of the six $100,000 winners to have been bred and raced in Nz from his 154 live foals.I am sure the breeders of those 154 foals were hoping Artsplace would leave a colt like Art Major 2.7m--Grinfromeartoear1.7m--Sportswriter1.5m--Artiscape1.4m-- Dreamaway1.3m or a filly like Worldly Beauty1.9m--Glowing Report1.9m-- Galliera1.8m--Steinams Place1.4m--Armbro Amoretto1.2m. For a stallion that left 44 in 1:50 and 17 millionaires in North America, his record of 6 $100,000 winners in Nz is not an indication of what a sensational sire he was.

[VVV] Adios/Abercrombie/Artsplace blood has never really taken hold in NZ...certainly to nowhere near the extent that it has fired here in AUS. You could level the same critique in reverse insofar as Direct Scooter blood is concerned. That has invariably fired in NZ whilst to date it has largely not done so here in Australia. So great has been the relative disparity in siring performance of that sireline that it's very possible the great Somebeachsomewhere will end up producing his best of his Southern Hemisphere bred offspring as a result of fresh chilled semen exported from AUS to NZ.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Triple V

[VVV] Adios/Abercrombie/Artsplace blood has never really taken hold in NZ...certainly to nowhere near the extent that it has fired here in AUS. You could level the same critique in reverse insofar as Direct Scooter blood is concerned. That has invariably fired in NZ whilst to date it has largely not done so here in Australia. So great has been the relative disparity in siring performance of that sireline that it's very possible the great Somebeachsomewhere will end up producing his best of his Southern Hemisphere bred offspring as a result of fresh chilled semen exported from AUS to NZ.

Oh so true. He has had such an impact with his first crop in NA and he looks such a great fit with Nz mares but maybe a question mark in Australia. Not about being successful, just the level of success.

No deal has been struck for Somebeachsomewhere to stand in either Oz or Nz, for this coming season, so Frozen might be the only option with him. Have a look at Art Major with Direct Scooter line mares in NZ, the cross is showing some promise.