New Handicapping system for NSW (3mth trial)

http://www.harnesslink.com/Australia...News---June-19

To begin in 2 wks time, the keys to the system are:

* Horses placed in races based on stakemoney earned at their past five starts.
* Barrier draws done within those races based on stakemoney earned at past five starts.
* Up to six levels of races with staggered stakemoney down from level one to six.
* 20 per cent discount on stakemoney earned for mares to aid them in barrier draws
* 20 per cent discount on stakemoney earned for pacers when driven by concession drivers to aid them in barrier draws

Our members are very quiet on this one. I am wondering where all the horses have suddenly come from based on David Aiken's statement. At one stage we were running out of horses here in Australia.
This will stay in regardless, an organisation does not spend time developing a system, and then removing it if it is a cockup even if it was another group that provided the idea. That is admitting failure. I will await the results of the trial with baited breath. There are some good points in it. I note that non racing revenue is not mentioned or being used as a quantifiable assessment point. Addington NZ seems to be doing well based on Articles regarding their financial performance so that is something to compare it to.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fan of Jate

Our members are very quiet on this one. I am wondering where all the horses have suddenly come from based on David Aiken's statement. At one stage we were running out of horses here in Australia.
This will stay in regardless, an organisation does not spend time developing a system, and then removing it if it is a cockup even if it was another group that provided the idea. That is admitting failure. I will await the results of the trial with baited breath. There are some good points in it. I note that non racing revenue is not mentioned or being used as a quantifiable assessment point. Addington NZ seems to be doing well based on Articles regarding their financial performance so that is something to compare it to.

You might get a differing view from NZ horsemen. Ask Mark Jones, who is in QLD with Delightful Memphis. Here, the 3yo filly was classed a C2 before winning Saturday night - her seventh win.

In NZ she is rated open class, due primarily from being Spanish Armada's bridesmaid on 10 occasions. I can only see horses such as her as being penalised for being consistent but not even winning . Can't see that being great for owners, OK for punters may be.

This is the problem with kiwi trainers/owners and others, they are whingeing before it has even started and in another country....total. Since when does anyone coming into another country have the right to complain about whats on offer?

Coming 2nd in races worth $120,000, whats the problem ? the horse is 3 y/o and won $260,000. Then coming over here and racing in the same class as horses who have raced against much lesser opposition here in Australia but will have won about the same prizemoney as it. This is where this system may fall down. A very good horse but trainers/owners still want the low hanging fruit not once but twice- in NZ and then over here.

If owners dont like the NSW system DM would be better off in WA with their new system being introduced where only wins are recognised regardless of who you raced against in NZ or NSW or any other place.

???

You misread my comments. In NZ, Delightful Memphis is rated at 102, which puts her in open class against the likes of Lazarus if there are no suitable fillies races. In Australia, she landed as a C2 based on her 6 lifetime wins. No bloody wonder her connections where keen to get her over here! The bulk of her stakes has been earned running second to Spanish Armada. You'd be hard pressed convincing me the NZ system benefits horses or owners once they are out of their age group.

Regardless of what she has earned, DM is a C2 based on wins. As a 3yo filly, connections are entitled to compete against her own age and sex. That is now a very limited option for her in NZ.

The disappointing aspect in Australia is, once again, it appears the states are taking an "every man for themselves" approach. Are we lacking a national, coordinated approach?

If we were to be optimistic, maybe one of the states will get it right and the national body will become just that and convince the others to follow suit

I'm looking forward to seeing the system roll out in NSW. I think it is a sound move making it a trial as amendments can be made without having to admit a "cock-up" as Pat put it.

The mismatch between NZ and AU racing classes has been around forever. As has the mismatch between AU and US. This system will bring us more in line with the US where horses appear to race competitively for a longer time, resulting in a lower level of horse turnover.

In respect of Trevor's comments on each state taking a different approach, I agree this is not ideal - we could end up with the AU / NZ class anomaly being also an intra-Australia anomaly, but surely common sense will prevail whereby if the system works in one state, it will likely be adopted by other states (and hopefully quickly).

Under condition 3 in the HR NSW introduction document for the new system it states that horses in the lower classes have to have had 4 starts in NSW before being allowed to enter those level of races so this will impact again on some horses owners/trainers trying to get some low hanging fruit. This rule should help lower class NSW horses I would think. Maybe others will be able to engage on this one, but if the trainers all like it as suggested by HR NSW then it is staying. The assessment of deliveries on this new system will be the tricky point. Results have to be clear and transparent. NSW harness have got stacks of money/resources so it should stand up.

My frustration is with the National Body and their inability to tie it all together as suggested by others. WA will have a different system soon and other states may be locked into their handicapping system. Good luck with that.

Wont happen in Queensland- couple of horses from NZ picked up some easy money on Saturday night- one in the Premiers cup race 6 ,The More the bettor which has won $460,000 in NZ and raced against Queensland horses that were luck to have won $40k each.

In race 8 the provincial Oaks, Partyon a winner of $500k (mostly at Menangle) won that race easily, the beaten favourite (mentioned in post #5) also from NZ who had won $270k- the average earnings of the other horses in this race (all from NZ- gee whiz!!) was about Malcom Turnbulls weekly spending money $20k.

Guess who the trainer was?

I have a theory as to why the best horses seem to win.

It's because they are better! Have a look at Partyon's record, Pat. She won the Harness Jewells and Breeders Crown as a 2yo as well as the NSW Oaks and NZ Northern Oaks. Despite her brilliant record, it would be fair to say nobody would argue that she is a better filly than Spanish Armada. More the Better, NZ 2yo Colt of the year but has not gone on as well as 3yo as Ultimate Machete (earlier in the season) or Vincent. With another Derby and Oaks up for grabs, is it better for the struggling QLD harness racing industry to attract horse of their calibre to boost the image of its premier carnival?

Successful NZ juveniles get penalized by their handicapping system. They end up staying in NZ racing in a limited number of open class races or going to Australia or the US.

So, enlighten me. What is to be gained by changing our handicapping system(s) to the advantage of lesser horses?

NZ are an amazing country. That recent TV ad for the rugby that highlights the fact that they only have a pop of 4.5M and yet they take on the United Kingdom does not really go far enough
NZ are World class competitors in Rugby, Cricket, Netball, Hockey, Sailing .... They have had their share of top Olympic performers, cyclists, jockeys, .....
They are fantastic horse breeders but with racing having to share such a small population with all of the above pursuits, they only have about 4 harness meets a week.
Horses to NZ are like our iron ore. We don't just produce enough for our needs, it is our strength so it is an export industry

I know you guys all know that - I am just sucking up to Teecee :p

Quote:

Originally Posted by Showgrounds

I have a theory as to why the best horses seem to win.

It's because they are better! Have a look at Partyon's record, Pat. She won the Harness Jewells and Breeders Crown as a 2yo as well as the NSW Oaks and NZ Northern Oaks. Despite her brilliant record, it would be fair to say nobody would argue that she is a better filly than Spanish Armada. More the Better, NZ 2yo Colt of the year but has not gone on as well as 3yo as Ultimate Machete (earlier in the season) or Vincent. With another Derby and Oaks up for grabs, is it better for the struggling QLD harness racing industry to attract horse of their calibre to boost the image of its premier carnival?

Successful NZ juveniles get penalized by their handicapping system. They end up staying in NZ racing in a limited number of open class races or going to Australia or the US.

So, enlighten me. What is to be gained by changing our handicapping system(s) to the advantage of lesser horses?

G'day Trevor, mate if you need enlightening, it's a very simple answer .....betting turnover

Thanks for your enlightened opinion

As I have said before, if its all about turnover then get rid of the horses for the pokies or flies crawling up the wall.

Pardon my struggling with your concept, but I am a horseperson first and foremost. I do no burn my money on the punt

Trevor, I dont thank you for sharing your theory, sarcasm is the lowest form of wit. I am also aware of the horses racing records. The gist of my posts on this issue has been consistent for quite some time in this forum and other media so I wont go into that again but most of those posts are in some way connected to the issue I raised. Post #4 is a prime example. Regarding the successful NZ juveniles getting penalized by the NZ handicapping system, get over it. That is their problem-what has that got to do with Australian harness racing? You expect people to feel sorry for someone who has a horse that has won $500k in NZ and cant win no more there due to a system that doesn't help them win another $500k ?

No doubt the Queensland racing industry will forever be in Harness racing NZ's debt for the privilege of having some of their successful juveniles and others to come over here to rescue them from poverty ,but most importantly boost their image. I also have no doubt that the owners/trainers of these said NZ horses have at heart the best interests of the QLD racing industry and the local participants. I bet they even hand out bags of lollies to the kids. Now that's sarcasm.

I will also answer your other question and hope that you are enlightened. What is to be gained by the Australian harness racing industry and its participants by allowing successful overseas horses to come here and continually suck the lifeblood out of the local industry and by using the excuse that they are being penalised out of existence in their own country and therefore they should get a leg up in this country via a weak handicapping system to enable them to win more local money?

Take a powder Pat.

Please. No sarcasm, just an (edited) response to a pretty ordinary (edited) response I got.

OK, so you're a protectionist. Hope you didn't break too many knuckles when Mr Feelgood won the Inter a few years ago. Last time I checked at was free trade between Australia and NZ.

Trevor, Mr Feelgood had to jump a few hoops before racing here but did start at the highest level from memory with no excuses and not as a 2/3 yo with $500k in his kick. So he never got any free kicks unlike the current crop and that is how it should be. He also had the United states factor and Brown Jug win going for him which created intrigue.He also attracted a lot of interest because he was a genuine star. That is the type of horse who brings in crowds so a different kettle of fish altogether.

I have owned a few NZ horses myself which takes away the protectionist angle, but I wont support what has been going on for a couple of years at least now in relation to what the discussion has been about.

Free trade does not mean a couple of bites at the cherry for racehorses in my opinion. And if you like free trade so much , send over a half a dozen of your best all blacks to play for the wallabies then and see how that goes down.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fan of Jate

Trevor, Mr Feelgood had to jump a few hoops before racing here but did start at the highest level from memory with no excuses and not as a 2/3 yo with $500k in his kick. So he never got any free kicks unlike the current crop and that is how it should be. He also had the United states factor and Brown Jug win going for him which created intrigue.He also attracted a lot of interest because he was a genuine star. That is the type of horse who brings in crowds so a different kettle of fish altogether.

I have owned a few NZ horses myself which takes away the protectionist angle, but I wont support what has been going on for a couple of years at least now in relation to what the discussion has been about.

Free trade does not mean a couple of bites at the cherry for racehorses in my opinion. And if you like free trade so much , send over a half a dozen of your best all blacks to play for the wallabies then and see how that goes down.

"My" All Blacks?

Mate, I have just spent an enjoyable couple of hours celebrating the Mighty Saints win over Fremantle. Played in Perth, where most of the standarbreds neigh with a funny accent.

I don't get what you mean by horses having a "couple of bites at the cherry". How is that so?

And, mate, I only ever owned Aussie bred horses. I grew up watching people burning their savings on too many high priced duds coming from NZ. It was always an ambition of mine to sell a Kiwi a horse for 100 grand only for it to be a dud. Karma. Those times, thankfully, have gone. Thanks to Sky Channel and the internet if you buy a dud from there these days, there is only yourself to blame.

And it's gotta be good for Australian Breeders that Purdon and other NZ trainers and owners are paying good money for our yearlings. It goes some (small) way to offsetting the trade from NZ.

And, Pat, this forum should not be taken as a test of your knowledge. Each person is entitled to their own opinion, whether you (and others) agree or not. I haven't noticed too many posters on it; it reads sometimes like a social chat. If some of the rancid stuff put my way recently because, presumably, somebody doesn't like my alternative view is consistent with the mindset of other forum members then I understand.

Anyway Pat, its too late so let's call it a night. I have run out of wisdom.

If an Australian horse had won the same amount of races and prizemoney as Partyon, The More The Better etc they would have been able to go in those races as well. This isn't giving Kiwis a leg up or a double dip...

My knowledge is nothing compared to a fair few people on this forum. But if a NZ horse runs 2nd in the Northern Derby race for example at Auckland and then can actually come over here and enter in the very similar races in NSW, QLD, Tas and Victoria with no fear of any penalty, wins, $won etc then that is double dipping all day every day. Provide me with the facts on why my statement isnt true, prove me wrong and then I will shut up.
An Australian horse is entitled to enter any race they are selected for or qualified for in Australia, they should not need to win $500k to get entry into a local race. We are are talking about overseas horses in this subject and what they are being allowed to do. I pointed out the major differential in the these two QLD races even supplying a field average of $won. In case anyone hadn't noticed State bodies are slowly bringing in rules to combat this due to complaints. So what are you going to do then? Unfortunately the state bodies are not doing enough.

No other country would allow this in any sport, they would be handicapped that much that they would have to be exceptional to win ala Lazarus or similar. So why are they getting a free kick here?

As for posts, my understanding is that any one person can give their view on any harness racing matter, that is what it is all about. If someone does not like a post then they have the right of reply or ignore it. Our gallant moderators' sort out the rest.

Kev, I have enjoyed a lot of good times with maoris' and pakihas over the years but I will give you some free advice ....never suck up to a kiwi :)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fan of Jate

My knowledge is nothing compared to a fair few people on this forum. But if a NZ horse runs 2nd in the Northern Derby race for example at Auckland and then can actually come over here and enter in the very similar races in NSW, QLD, Tas and Victoria with no fear of any penalty, wins, $won etc then that is double dipping all day every day. Provide me with the facts on why my statement isnt true, prove me wrong and then I will shut up.
An Australian horse is entitled to enter any race they are selected for or qualified for in Australia, they should not need to win $500k to get entry into a local race. We are are talking about overseas horses in this subject and what they are being allowed to do. I pointed out the major differential in the these two QLD races even supplying a field average of $won. In case anyone hadn't noticed State bodies are slowly bringing in rules to combat this due to complaints. So what are you going to do then? Unfortunately the state bodies are not doing enough.

No other country would allow this in any sport, they would be handicapped that much that they would have to be exceptional to win ala Lazarus or similar. So why are they getting a free kick here?

As for posts, my understanding is that any one person can give their view on any harness racing matter, that is what it is all about. If someone does not like a post then they have the right of reply or ignore it. Our gallant moderators' sort out the rest.

Kev, I have enjoyed a lot of good times with maoris' and pakihas over the years but I will give you some free advice ....never suck up to a kiwi :)

A horse could have run 2nd in the NSW, Vic, SA, WA Derby and headed to the QLD Derby etc.
A horse can win 10 on end at Menangle and then go to QLD for those races.
Its the same rules for everybody. We aren't barring 10 win Aussies from races but letting 10 win Kiwis in races. We aren't barring $500K Aussies from races but allowing $500K Kiwis into races. It is the same rules to ascertain what they are graded.

Less prize money is one result of this .........July 2015 , 8 races $159140. July 2016 , 8 races $165760. July 2017 , 9 races $148020.

Trish, I do remember a while back NSW saying their investments were not returning what they had hoped for so I guess this is what happens

The prizemoney at both Gloucester Park & Melton was about $50k more than Menangle on the weekend for what that's worth.

To be fair Pat, Melton was only $40k more thanks to 2 extra races and 3 Gp3 races compared to Menangle's 1 Gp3
(GP had an extra race too)

Spot on Kev, but never be fair to a cockroach. I was only supplying some basic info to work with. I am sure Menangle prizemoney has dropped off as compared to say 6 months ago as per Trish's calculations. I am talking the average race meeting not meetings stacked with Group races etc. I recall reading an article not that long ago that said they were flying in NSW in regards to their investment.

NSW have released Race Programming and Handicapping Guidelines which will provide increased transparency for stakeholders

If you click on the 'here' near the bottom of the article you will get all the details

http://www.harness.org.au/media-room...?news_id=37553