Sires- Blue Chip Australasian Breeders Crown Finals

2yo Pacing Fillies
5 x Art Major, 2 x Bettor's Delight, 2 x Mach Three, 1 each to Four Starzzz Shark & Jermes Jet.

2yo Pacing Colts & Geldings
3 x Bettor's Delight, 1 each to Christian Cullen, Presidential Ball, Four Starzzz Shark, Blissfull Hall, American Ideal, Mach Three, Art Major & Riverboat King.

3yo Pacing Fillies
2 x Bettor's Delight, 2 x Art Major, 2 x Mach Three, 1 each to Live Or Die, Yankee Sensation, Armbro Operative, Falcon Seelster, Artsplace & Mcardle.

3yo Pacing Colts & Geldings
3 x by Mach Three , 2 X Bettor's Delight, 1 each to Blissfull Hall, Real Desire, Art Major, McArdle, Village Jasper, Riverboat King & Life Sign.

4yo Pacing Mares
4 x Bettor's Delight, 2 x Presidential Ball, 2 x Christian Cullen, 1 each to Dream Away, Falcon Seelster, Village Jasper & Armbro Operative.

4yo Pacing Entires & Geldings
5 x Bettor's Delight, 2 x Christian Cullen, 2 x Blissfull Hall, 1 each to Aces N Sevens, Village Jasper & Mach Three.

Most represented.
Bettor's Delight- 18
Art Major- 9
Mach Three- 8
Christian Cullen-5
Blissfull Hall- 4
Village Jasper-3
Presidential Ball-3

Bettors Delight, Art Major, Mach Three and Christian Cullen.
No surprises there Jaimie, the best 4 stallions in this part of the world over the last few years - all very good.

Bettors Delight in my opinion is an out and out superstar stallion with CC right up alongside him.

Their dam sires make for interesting reading too, if only because it seems to reveal absolutely nothing.

Dam Sires- Blue Chip Australasian Breeders Crown Finals
2yo Pacing Fillies
2 x Fake Left, 1 each to In The Pocket, Presidential Ball, Falcon Seelster, Albert Albert, Armbro Operative, Badlands Hanover, Holmes Hanover, Christian Cullen & Beach Towel.

2yo Pacing Colts & Geldings
2 x Soky's Atom, 1 each to Falcon Seelster, In The Pocket, Artsplace, Badlands Hanover, Albert Albert, Entrepreneur, Village Jasper, Holmes Hanover & Panorama.

3yo Pacing Fillies
2 x Safely Kept, 2 x Armbro Operative, 1 each to Muckalee Strike, Windshield Wiper, Mystical Shark, Albert Albert, Walton Hanover, Jennas Beach Boy, Die Laughing & Soky's Atom.

3yo Pacing Colts & Geldings
2 x Holmes Hanover, 1 each to In The Pocket, Albert Albert, Soky's Atom, Vintner, Abercrombie, Falcon Seelster, Tompkins Hanover, Butler BG, Safely Kept & Vanston Hanover.

4yo Pacing Mares
3 x New York Motoring, 3 x Holmes Hanover, 1 each to Sands A Flyin, Caprock, Northern Lights, Troublemaker, Golden Reign & Placid Victor.

4yo Pacing Entires & Geldings
2 x Classic Garry, 2 x Safely Kept, 2 x Perfect Art, 1 each to Live Or Die, Armbro Operative, Armbro Aussie, Echelon, In The Pocket & Soky's Atom.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Big Max

Bettors Delight in my opinion is an out and out superstar stallion with CC right up alongside him.

He's got a double edged sword to him because gets them going early and a large number of those go on at 3yrs and keep going at 4+. Highview Tommy's a good example. A 2005 foal, he was NZ 2yo Colt of the Year, still racing in 2012 in top company as a now rising 7yo.

Where are the older Art Majors???

Strong form with Bettors Delight having 9x 4yos.

Bettors Delight is doing a super job producing winner's everywhere, number's on the ground also helps his case.

Not sure Breno. Sushi Sushi would have been there and would probably have won it only that he got sore. Bettor's Delight is leaving a gritty, sound, genuine Cam Fella/Cam's Card Shark attribute in his stock. From 2yrs through to Aged, they show up week in, week out, ready to race & to give of their best on the day. I think that's the main reason why so many of them race on into the aged ranks.

So what does everyone think about Roll With Joe's siring prospects ?

John Peck made an interesting comment in his HRI magazine,
"Plenty of discussion about who was the better horse, however, something missing from most discussions is the quality of the opposition.
The 1998 crop that Bettor's Delight belonged to produced only eight 1:52 2YOlds (Bettor's Delight was not one), the fastest being Real Desire 2,1:50.8 while the 2008 crop that Roll With Joe belonged to produced 29 1:52 2YOlds including three in 1:50.
Even when one looks at the horses that finished in the placings in the five big ones that Bettor's Delight competed in - Real Desire, Klingon Hanover, Hawaiian Cowboy, Horselaughter, Four Starzzz Shark, Lotsa Clout, Bagel Beach Boy - there is fair argument to suggest that they were not as good as Roll With Joe's opposition."

Head to head the single biggest difference I can see is that Ron Pierce tended to drive Roll With Joe with cover, he would invariably come off a helmet to do his thing...whereas I don't recall Mike Lachance driving Bettor's Delight that way. He was much more of a get into it early & mix it with them on the front end sort of horse & was driven accordingly.
I think Roll With Joe might have had a step or two more in the point to point speed category as opposed to Bettor's Delight and Roll With Joes a bit bigger and is different gaited too...but Bettor's Delight was most definitely a tougher racehorse all over, IMO.
Any examination of his race record now is kind of a moot point anyway.
Bettor's Delight already has the runs on the board as a sire & quite extensive runs they are, some $98,021,730 in total progeny earnings and counting. Sometime between now and the end of 2012 or very early 2013 he will top the $100,000,000 mark. Not bad. ;)

Jaimie,

Examination of Bettor's Delight's race record is now a moot point with respect to Bettor's Delight but a comparison between him and RWJ is reasonable in trying to evaluate the siring potential of the latter.
I am warming more to RWJ and think he is a good prospect and represents excellent value, but at the same time I cannot imagine that he will replicate the results of his older brother.

In my humble opinion, a sire's success often is hinged on the quality of the mares they can attract in those first 2/3years. The formula for success for the equine paternal line(s) is still a very unknown thing. Personally, in my observations, racetrack performances do but one thing...attract bigger books of better mares, which inturn produce racetrack success for the offspring.
There are many examples of wonderful racehorses that are flops at stud and similarly race track duds who beat the odds and are successful sires.
I realise that sounds like I'm having a foot in both camps, but really it is all such an unknown...all we try to do increase our chances and reduce the odds of failure as breeders... the age old adage "breed the best to the best and hope for the best " is just that, an adage that people believe in and hence send their mares to the entire they perceive as the best fit for their mare and hope for the best result.

I do believe a horse has the ability to throw attitude to work into a large percentage of their offspring, and this characteristic may be one of the most powerful factors in the mix, afterall, they wont be successful if they don't want to be...which reminds me of another old adage " you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink"

I always loved the story about James Harrison (The Care & Training of the Trotter & Pacer) who back in the 1950's asked Lawrence Sheppard of Hanover which colt, Tar Heel or Solicitor, was likely to become the better sire. Sheppard replied "How the hell would I know?".

Quote:

Originally Posted by eliteblood

Bettors Delight, Art Major, Mach Three and Christian Cullen.
No surprises there Jaimie, the best 4 stallions in this part of the world over the last few years - all very good.

The big 4 mentioned above dominated Breeders Crown Day and took almost all of the pacing money on Sunday.
CC sired 1 winner and 1 3rd placegetter
AM sired 1 winner and 1 2nd placegetter
MT sired 1 winner, 1 2nd placegetter and 1 3rd placegetter
It was however a super siring performance by BD who produced 3 winners, 2 2nd placegetters and 1 3rd placegetter

Blue Chip Farms, who stand both Bettors Delight and Art Major in the USA, were a major sponsor on the day. They would have to be very happy with the results.

Sire wise, the thing that impressed me the most was that Bettor's hit a Breeders Crown winner across all 3 Age Divisions...2,3 & 4. I was particularly impressed with Bit Of A Legend. He hung tough up outside the leader and took a lot of air for long way yet he refused to give in. There's not that much of him and apparently he does a few things wrong, especially early in his races...but mentally & physically, he is as tough as a block of concrete.
It's interesting how maternal families ebb & flow too, I've mentioned that before. He comes from the damline of Nero & Seahawk Hanover & while that family has largely dropped off production wise in the US/CAN in recent times (with the exception of 500k winner Lady DM) a couple of branches of it have continued to fire in the Sthn. Hemisphere producing Bit Of A Legend, London Legend, Classy Filly, Classic Line, Wouldn't It Be Nice, Marquess De Posh, Arctic Fire etc.

Quote:

Originally Posted by eliteblood

So what does everyone think about Roll With Joe's siring prospects ?

John Peck made an interesting comment in his HRI magazine,
"Plenty of discussion about who was the better horse, however, something missing from most discussions is the quality of the opposition.
The 1998 crop that Bettor's Delight belonged to produced only eight 1:52 2YOlds (Bettor's Delight was not one), the fastest being Real Desire 2,1:50.8 while the 2008 crop that Roll With Joe belonged to produced 29 1:52 2YOlds including three in 1:50.
Even when one looks at the horses that finished in the placings in the five big ones that Bettor's Delight competed in - Real Desire, Klingon Hanover, Hawaiian Cowboy, Horselaughter, Four Starzzz Shark, Lotsa Clout, Bagel Beach Boy - there is fair argument to suggest that they were not as good as Roll With Joe's opposition."

Trevor I think RWJ with his pedigree and race record is comparable to many other 1st season shuttle sires that have been available in recent years. I think that ultimately the Bettors Delight factor though will be a bit of a curse though, as BD has set the bar at a level that is unattainable for almost any sire. It's not that I think that RWJ won't succeed just that he will probably always be in the shadow of his older brother, which will probably evoke unfavourable comparisons. There is another brother I believe who wasn't as successful on the track, but I believe he is at stud, unsure as to how he has gone.

In the 1O years between BD and RWJ, there has been a lot of changes, no longer unlimited books in the US, There economy/industry is way in decline, Bettors after a season or two of frozen semen was one of the early shuttle sires, RWJ faces far more competition from an increased number of shuttle sires in a market were the mare population is in decline. I also think that BD slotted into a very good for him opportunity in time and place with the mostly NZ mare population he served in huge numbers in the southern hemisphere. RWJ has a different, and IMO a not as compatable mare population here in oz, and even if he proves to be outstanding is unlikely to cover as many mares as BD has.

Its allways hard to compare horses that raced in different seasons, in this case a decade apart, with a lot of opinion and subjectivity involved. John Peck has made what appears to be an objective assessment based on the number of 1:52 2yo in each season but I'm not sure if that is a valid comparison. It assumes that the only reason there were more in RWJ's year is that they were better then in BD's year, but how do you factor in things like improvements in track geometry and sulky design/availability, medications (%pop racing on Lasix) etc in the intervening 10 years. Even the prevailing climatic conditions in each year could have made a difference.

I think RWJ is worth of consideration on his own merits against his peers but that is a huge shadow that BD has cast

Quote:

Originally Posted by dizzy

Trevor I think RWJ with his pedigree and race record is comparable to many other 1st season shuttle sires that have been available in recent years. I think that ultimately the Bettors Delight factor though will be a bit of a curse though, as BD has set the bar at a level that is unattainable for almost any sire. It's not that I think that RWJ won't succeed just that he will probably always be in the shadow of his older brother, which will probably evoke unfavourable comparisons. There is another brother I believe who wasn't as successful on the track, but I believe he is at stud, unsure as to how he has gone.

In the 1O years between BD and RWJ, there has been a lot of changes, no longer unlimited books in the US, There economy/industry is way in decline, Bettors after a season or two of frozen semen was one of the early shuttle sires, RWJ faces far more competition from an increased number of shuttle sires in a market were the mare population is in decline. I also think that BD slotted into a very good for him opportunity in time and place with the mostly NZ mare population he served in huge numbers in the southern hemisphere. RWJ has a different, and IMO a not as compatable mare population here in oz, and even if he proves to be outstanding is unlikely to cover as many mares as BD has.

Its allways hard to compare horses that raced in different seasons, in this case a decade apart, with a lot of opinion and subjectivity involved. John Peck has made what appears to be an objective assessment based on the number of 1:52 2yo in each season but I'm not sure if that is a valid comparison. It assumes that the only reason there were more in RWJ's year is that they were better then in BD's year, but how do you factor in things like improvements in track geometry and sulky design/availability, medications (%pop racing on Lasix) etc in the intervening 10 years. Even the prevailing climatic conditions in each year could have made a difference.

I think RWJ is worth of consideration on his own merits against his peers but that is a huge shadow that BD has cast

Dot,

The other brother you mentioned is No Pan Intended. He is in fact a half brother being by Pacific Fella and was also a very good racehorse (Breeders Crown and Little Brown Jug winner, Horse of the Year, winner of $1.58 million) and a successful sire with 9 x $500k+ performers and average earnings per foal of $60k.

The huge success of Bettors Delight may in some respects be a cross that RWJ has to carry, but on the other hand I think it is more of a plus.
I think breeders will correctly mark him up because he is a full brother to the great Bettors Delight and a half brother to No Pan Intended, while at the same time being 3YO Colt of the Year in his own right.
A lot of your points are valid and I don't think there is anyone who expects him to match the achievements of his older brother.

Sorry Trevor I should have been more specific I wasn't refering to NPI, there is another full brother -Classic Card Shark he is at Winbak now but I don't think he has been there all along, he is a 2003 foal.

NPI is a success story in his own right but not as well thought of as BD, being by PF rather then CCS would have a bit to do with that

There is. Classic Wish had 12 foals, 6 by Cam's Card Shark, 3 were fillies, 3 were colts...and so along with Bettor's Delight & Roll With Joe there's another full brother foaled in 2003, his name is Classic Card Shark. He paced in 1:52.1 as a 6yo and earned $167,782. He stood stud/is at stud now at Winbak in Canada & his oldest progeny were foals of 2011.

My mistake. I wrongly assumed you were referring to NPI.

No Trevor my bad I should have been more specific, most people would have thought of NPI