Apart from location (a big point but also relevant to Menangle) and the barns what is the problem with Melton Jack?Quote:
Originally Posted by jackthepunter
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Apart from location (a big point but also relevant to Menangle) and the barns what is the problem with Melton Jack?Quote:
Originally Posted by jackthepunter
Well Big Kev were do I start. The design of the whole place is a joke, is been poorly though out with bits and piceces added here and their and all over the place. The place has no flow its all over the shop. Why would you put the parade ring as far away as possible? Anyone with half a brain would have put the parade ring right next to the stand like menagle and moonee valley were owners and fans can get right up close to the horse without have to walk all the way. You might think its not that far but think of the elderly or people with young kids. I also would have made the parade ring and stands and dinner areas as one like moonee valley so on warm niights(rarely at melton) you could stand out and watch them parade, but on cold windy days and nights(standard at melton). People could still see and get up close to the horses but behind the glass in warm comfort. To get anyone to go to the races you have to give them comfort and good quality food and drink at cheap prices so they have an enjoyable experience and come back, not only that their tell their friends and they come to. Now this has never happen at melton alot of people went once or twice in the early years and have never or raley been back, myself included. The food was over priced and average at best. From last count I think theirs been at least 10 cheifs and mangers come and go probably more by know, hardly a good recommendation for a place. Why would you have the drivers rooms the size of a phone box and not have them as part of the stable block? I'm convince the people that designed and built the place were the same people that build and designed Etihad Stadium(AFL) were the grounds facing the wrong way for sunlight, difference at melton its facing the wrong way for the wind the buildings should have been build on the side that you drive in hence blocking the wind and not letting it blow right it your face. Their just a few things I could go on all day. But its not a facility any one in the industry worth they salt is happy with or proud of.Quote:
Originally Posted by Messenger
Meltons not perfect. But still great place to watch the races.Quote:
Originally Posted by jackthepunter
They had the stuff you mention at Moonee Valley. And what happened? No bugger turned up!! Losing money hand over foot. All going into MV coffers and out of the participants pockets. Not sustainable. So whats the alternative?
We go every week and yes it's very, very cold there some nites. On Sunday there was a cold westerly blowing. If they put the stand where you said it would have been blowing straight in your face. Put it the other way and then in summer (when some buggers do turn up) you cop a hot northerly in your face. The parade ring is a walk but most nights there's no one down there. 20m walk from cafe? So they put it in front of track and on days when buggers do turn up they'd be whingeing about no space. Menangles parade ring is closer?
It's not perfect but the days of 'If you build it they will come' are gone. It's a fast growing area. Hopefully they capitalise on it. Why build something in the middle of town when 'No bugger turns up'?
I remember the days of standing for 5 hours in the outer to watch my footy team play... Wind, rain or shine. No roof. Made me laugh few weeks back when heard someone complain about bit of bird poop on their undercover seat!
Paul you need to read what I wrote properly before you post, I'm all for having a facility at melton just not a shit one. I never said to stay at moonee valley, I said if they had of bulid a facility like at moonee valley at melton where the horse barn lead to the parade ring and out on to the track in front of it and had the buildings built around the parade ring and grand stand and had the dinner area all in one it would be a great facility where people could get out of the cold in the warn comfort of a building but still get close to the horses. As far as no one being at the parade ring watching the horses, it pretty obvious why no ones going to walk down their and freeze their ass off, hence why I said if it was like monnee valley where people could still see the horses parade but be in warm comfort. People need to been able to get up close to the horses in all weather conditions. Its how I first got to get up close to a horse, if no ones taking there kids down their to watch the horses parade and look at the drivers whats the point. To sell the sport you have to sell the horse, not be obsessed with "the punter" most punter are not horse owners, most really don't care about horses it just sometheing to bet on. If you want to get new owners involved or new sponsors you need to a have a first class facility for them to come to, have something to eat and have a good experience and an enjoyable time. Melton can't do any of that, hence why no one goes or most likely will. Watched the Breeders Crown on sunday one of the biggest race days in victoria it look liked they would have been lucky to get 2-3 thousand people their. Happy with that paul? Is that growing the sport? If thats the best Victoria can do, then we are stuffed. It got nothing to do with build it and them will come, its got to do with building a facility where people can go and watch the sport and have a comfortable enjoyable experience. How to you expect to get new people, new sponsors and protential owners to the sport if you build such a hole of a facility?Quote:
Originally Posted by Toohard
Melton has always been a bit of a distance for me but I have been to a couple of beautiful balmy nights and was so surprised at how close the horses seemed for a bigger track, esp in the str that I was just wrapped. I did not think much about the other stuff but I know what you are saying about the wonderful flow and view of the parade ring that MV offered.
If you remember the big thread we had on how Harness must improve you would remember that nobody is disagreeing that Harness needs to be a wonderful entertainment experience - unfortunately I have not experienced what Melton has to offer having only been on my pat malone on beautiful evenings where I was happy to grab a hamburger and coffee on the promenade.
ps Beautiful evenings not planned - just lucky they were the nights I was heading home from the big smoke on my way to the Gap
Jack.. not want to get in a blue but you didn't answer any of the questions I asked. So I ask again. The last time you went to Melton? The last time you went Moonee Valley? The last time went Menangle when the patade ring was closer to the track and could be viewed from behind the glass in the grandstand?Quote:
Originally Posted by jackthepunter
Whats your point? are you talking in riddles? You didn't ask any questions you made a statement in your first post your didn't ask the above questions and I already gave you the answer why I don't go to melton., Its not a blue its a heathly debate. My point is unless you build a good facility for horses/participants/owners/general public which in imo melton is not how to you ever expect to grow the sport or keep people in it. People these days will not go anywhere unless theirs a good faciility that provides everything they need. Which is why most people stay at home.Quote:
Originally Posted by Toohard
Jack you say it is not a blue (and Viv would probably say we were initially not blueing in Breeding the other day) but I think sometimes we have to look at the slightly aggressive way we post.Quote:
Originally Posted by jackthepunter
You may not give a rats but having spent some time on Big Footy forum and seen how unpleasant it can become between fans of the same team(!) - I think we have to be vigilant
"Paul you need to read what I wrote properly before you post"
It just reads differently to
'Paul you have not got my point' or 'Paul you need to read what I wrote again'
I think Paul has stated he does not want to get in a blue because it sounds aggressive, well aggressive between mates on a forum anyway
You don't get this point either for then you start with
"Whats your point? are you talking in riddles?"
You won't like this post because it sounds like I am lecturing you - exactly what it sounded like you were doing to him
I make no apologies for sticking my beak in as I am not interested in another Big Footy testosterone fuelled forum
(I am sure I will get around to reconciling with Viv)
Kev, Im not being aggressive their was no questions asked in the first post from paul, and its clear why I don't like melton hence why I dont get his question and no I don't have a problem with you having an opinion, everyones entitled to their opinion. I don't take things personally on here or in life. I clearly stated my points, to which paul made no reley to what I asked him and then he posted the next post pretty simple really.Quote:
Originally Posted by Messenger
No problem here Jack. Sorry I should have worded it differently maybe. You say above. I say they had all that at Moonee Valley. And it was bang slap in the middle of Melbourne. Public transport too and what happened? No one turned up.Quote:
Originally Posted by jackthepunter
You compared Melton to Menangle. NSW had the money from the Harold Park sale. Vic had nothing. So who pays for what you want built at Melton? Where does the money come from? And whats the point of building something like that if no one turns up? They didn't turn up at Moonee Valley so why build something like that at Melton?
My other questions we just to see if you were one of the people that did turn up at Moonee Valley and one of the people who still does.
It would have been great if somehow it could have been closer to the CBD. 48km is just to far for most in today's people, even though there's better transport & facilities etc.. I don't know if Melton can ever compete with MV for different reasons, one of them being that I just don't think the trots is nowhere near as popular as it once was. I can tell you guys that Trigger got me interested big time back in harness, that's why Champions like him are so very important for the industry.
Bums on seats......Take a look at Randwick, they have just spent mega millions to create a world class facility but except for major carnivals the crowds are down. Reality is that with Sky Channel and Commercial stations broadcasting live and every betting agency having Apps etc, you no longer need to go to the track. In fact the TV coverage zooms in and gives you a closer look at the action, even leading TB trainers say they watch the race from a TV screen at the races.
We have lost the challenge of "Beating the bookies" with a plunge because they are gone or almost gone to on line betting.
As Smoken said lets get our Superstar pacers and Trotters more publicity in an effort to create more interest. I suspect Triggers last start on the 6th September at Melton will get some promotion and draw a bigger crowd than usual...but that's also a one off.
Their no dramas here Paul, yes I did go to the valley regularly because its close to where I live and been on a saturday night I could go their first, then go out in the city.Quote:
Originally Posted by Toohard
With Melton on a friday night, its not worth going for me with by the time I finsh work and tracffic it would be all but over by the time I got their. Obviously for the industry the biggest problem with the valley was the rent and the main one in my opinion that with the track inside the galloping track you couldn't get up close. But with the valley you did get some big crowds their by harness racing standards when they had the summer carnival, I sure at times even it was only for 2-3 weeks of the year. They did get 10,000 plus a few times, I don't think melton can even handel that.
By thats not my point, If your going to build a brand new facility do it right and do it well. The ceo and board have to be postive that they can get new people/owners involved. And I just don't think that the way Melton been designed and built that will ever happen. Will makes me angry because I love the sport and I think everone deserves alot better. You have to try at all costs to grow the industry and I don't think the current ceo or board have really done anything to grow it. The Breeders Crown just past the only advertising I heard about it was mainly on rsn and the odd bit on sen.
Rsn being all racing and some sport, sen being mainly afl and some sport. So all your doing is peaching to the people who already love the sport, its not going to get outside interest when most people don't listen to those stations. So whey wouldn't you put it on Triple M for an example, get Billy Brownless or someone with a big media profile to promoteit . Its what every other sport does bar harness racing. Im pretty sure it was some goverment money and a loan that build melton, either way imo the sport deserves alot better. I don't want to sit here and watch the sport die.
A few years ago I had a hoilday in New Zealand and when along to Alexandra Park( Auckland) WOW what a facility by far the best for harness racing in this part of the world. The barn for the horses are massive their so much room for the horses to walk around before and after races and get geared up. Their not jammed in like cattle on a truck, the food and restaurants are first class. Hrv could have easily got the blueprints and done something similar and then they would have had a first class facility. Any one who gets the chance should go over for a look you will really notice the differnt compared to melton.
http://www.alexandrapark.co.nz/racing/
Do they have a roof on the grandstand at Alexandra Park Jack?
The two most recent metro tracks built in Melbourne, The Meadows and Melton, have very limited grandstand style seating for the public. Even on the big nights at Moonee Valley, you could still get a seat up the top in the Burston Stand, rathen than having to stand on the grass.
The Sandown greyhounds stand is a good example (all seating fully indoors with the restaurant tiered style opposite the winning post). This idea was even copied by Caulfield when they did their rebuild. A facility such as Sandown caters for crowds of up to 3000-4000 on their busiest night, so it could have easily been replicated at Melton. The bar/food/tote etc is on a flat level at the top, behind the seating.
On a slightly related matter - they were getting 20,000 to the Hunter Cup around 10-15 years ago, admittedly the course is on the other side of town now but where have all these people gone?
The silly part is when designing Melton the only thing HRV had to do pretty much copy the design of Ballarat's facilities! The most patron friendly venue in Victoria.
Small confession time for Kev:
Although it is a long way from the Eastern suburbs, staying in Port Melbourne last weekend I have come home from the city today and decided to time it
Surprise surprise Melton would only be 35mins tops by car from Southern Cross railway station in Melbourne's city centre
I am now interested in knowing where the Melton attendees are coming from
I wonder whether HRV have done any on track postcode surveys to find out if they are attracting anybody other than Meltonites
Big suburbs like Altona, Williamstown, Footscray, Essendon, Werribee, Sunshine, Tullamarine plus all those to the west of these are much closer than I realized
Do we put on any city buses? I remember in the old days catching buses from the city to the trots - I think it must have been to Kilmore
Hopefully we might hear from Cody or else I will send this off to HRV
Quote:
Originally Posted by Messenger
What time of day was it Kev?
I've only headed out, part, that way once. Leaving Melbourne 5 pm Friday. Doubt I'd have got to Melton in 35 mins.
It was midday and I did it in about 32 I think but 5 pm Friday would be different - I will try to remember this Friday to ask the missus to check on her ph app to see how long it will take at 5pm and 6pm.
All the suburbs I listed should still be quicker, doable in 35, I would think
I just checked it on Google maps now and I have to amend my numbers in that I thought Bay St Pt Melbourne would be the same as Southern Cross station but it is not. Right now Southern Cross would take 37min compared to 31min Southern Cross. Will check again on Friday 5pm
I work in Rialto (corner of King and Collins St) and finish work at 6pm.Quote:
Originally Posted by Messenger
Depending on the traffic, leaving from 522 Flinders Lane (just near Southern X Station) heading over the Westgate, it can take between 35-45 minutes on average. On a good day closer to 30 minutes. On a long weekend easily an hour! There doesn't seem to be any rhyme or reason for the delays.
Over the Westgate heading to Geelong can be reasonably slow then the run improves when you bear left to the Ring Road. However, recently there have been delays at turnoffs to Caroline Springs and/or Werribee for what appears to be no reason.
Its a real headache for all and a real pain in the a.... when meetings start around 5pm during winter.
I find I regularly miss at least the first four races on a Friday
Yabbie, I believe it may be the duck season and we all know about Werribee ducks :). I cant find it but this may be one of the reasons Melton is low in the pecking order of best harness tracks in Australia posted just recently. This is the great beauty of Gloucester Park, so very easy to get to and a superb location plus fairly good facilities. Have not been out to the wild west suburbs for a while now but Friday night getting to Melton would be quite painful if you have to work the full day in the city.
I hope Carol can get off work at 4pm today as the 12 race Vicbred semis program kicks off at 4.54
(I will have to do a google travel time check for 4pm too!)
Rightio Kev reporting to you from the chopper in the sky
Travel times between Southern Cross Station Melbourne and Tabcorp Park Melton tonight were expected to be as follows:
3.30pm 41min
3.40pm 46min
4.00pm 54min
5.05pm 51min
5.45pm 47min
6.00pm 40min
Wow if you are knocking off now Carol, you will miss/have missed 4 races due to early start but you should FLY down the highway :)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Messenger
Left town (Bourke St) 3.30pm. Home to Gisborne via the Tullamarine Car Park. Grab son Luke and back to Melton in time for the 2nd at 5.30pm.
Decent crowd there last night. Got mighty cold by time the last rolled around at 10.30pm (3°).
Great night out watching some nice horses bowl around and seeing some owners that are there most weeks come rain or shine get some success. 'Team' Whirily School maybe the standout as always good to see passionate people that put heaps in get a win.
And although un-said where I have looked, what a remarkable achievement by Anne and Bill Anderson (Lauriston). 6 competitors as owners / breeders all through to the finals next week.
School holidays in Vic next 2 weeks which could see the Tulla Car Park change from a standstill to a trickle so no excuse not to be there to witness same again. Might even make it for the 1st..
I live in Ascot Vale and cannot do Melton in under 45mins on a Friday night - I leave around 5.45. Racing at Melton should only be of a Sat night IMO
I love GP not just because of its proximity to the CBD but the racing on a smaller track is more exciting
The difference between Friday and Saturday night (for travel times) would be interesting to monitor - no doubt Saturday would be considerably less. I am not 100% sure of this but I think David Martin said either Friday or Saturday night would be the chosen night if you were summarizing your ideal raceQuote:
Originally Posted by Ivomec
The excitement is what we have to market Terry, living in Ascot Vale I wonder whether are you old enough to have experienced the Showgrounds - if I had never experienced the excitement of the Showgrounds, I doubt I would be a trots fanQuote:
Originally Posted by Ivomec
Thanks Paul. Looking forward to Saturday night but will be nervous come Race time. The 6 horses that have made the finals deserve to be there. Most have had some issues over the journey; there is an orphan foal who had a Caesarian birth and was taken to Goulburn Valley Vet Hospital in the back of a Landcruiser at 2.30 in the morning, his best mate Ben born with conformation issues that vets said wouldn't race and prevented his sale as a yearling, a little fella that many said was too small, a 4 year old mare whose mother died of snake bite when the foal was 6 months old and another mare looked after her hence the name 'Without You ' ,Quote:
Originally Posted by Toohard
A filly who was an impulse buy at the yearling sales , and of course the blue blood 'Poster Boy' .
I love my horses and it's been my life ever since growing up in the Ascot Vale area where my father always trained a couple at Dales Stables and we went to the Showgounds every week. Great memories especially of Cocky Raider scraping the paint from the outside rail as he charged home: you could almost touch him as he flew past !
Less traffic this week, Saurday night racing is the way to go at Melton although with all the road works on the Hume it will be a long trip from Euroa.
Great story there Bonnie, all the best and hope you take a few trophys' home.
Thank you, one would be lovely !
Never had the opportunity to go to the Showgrobds but watch plenty of the trots from their on the Penthouse Club growing up as a kid - my 1st metro meeting was at Moonee Valley - Interdominion when the fog won - along with what seemed like 1 million people!Quote:
Originally Posted by Messenger
Ray Chaplin of Equineexcellence has prepared a short report on 'How Important was Excitement'Quote:
Originally Posted by Messenger
This is the intro:
"Lack of excitement today is probably one of the key reasons why harness racing has
declined in popularity since the 1960’s thru 80’s
In a much more competitive market harness racing as an entertainment has
transitioned from exciting then to boring now
This has occurred because of Australia’s decision makers followed the American
product model of big tracks, majority mobile racing and an obsession for fast times"
This is the conclusion:
"This comparison of the two major events in USA and Australian harness racing
suggests that creating an exciting atmosphere is an important component of a
successful Harness Racing Brand
It is difficult to envisage how this brand requirement can consistently be delivered to
the level required at all metropolitan tracks apart from Gloucester Park
Boring racing, combined with a total of about a half an hour of actual action, and no
buzz of a crowded betting ring is no incentive to attract new followers to the sport –
hence the decline in participation and wagering continues"
The red is my emphasis - like I said in the initial quote 'if I had never experienced the excitement of the Showgrounds, I doubt I would be a trots fan'
I have to get to GP to see if it rekindles Showground memories
There is definitely a "buzz" at GP that is not present at most tracks Kev, you should go if you get the chance.
You should go to my hometown track, Busselton, too Kev if you make the trek to WA. Tiny little track, stand starts only, falls at least twice a season and gets a massive turnout for its short summer season. Also, best donuts in the land (I've been known to eat 5 :o )
Katie,
I am doing a trip west some time between November and March and Busselton is on my wish list due to the standing starts and small circumference ( cut my teeth on those types of tracks here in NSW many moons ago)....any tips you can PM me will be gratefully received.
Update on last Friday/Saturday travel times
I did not try for the Semi Finals night on Friday as it was the last day of financial year and a first race time of 4.45pm made it nigh on impossible.
However, last Friday night, I left work at 5pm. It took me 20 mins from car park in Flinders Lane to get onto Westgate Freeway leading to the Bridge; not too bad over the bridge and on the Westgate Freeway - very heavy (even though it was school holidays) but moving, off at the Ring Road (flying along at the speed limit); around the bend onto Melton Highway and DEAD STOP. Averaged approx. 40kph from Ring Road to Melton and took about an hour in total to get from my car park to Melton car park.
Saturday night, I travelled from local football commitments at Wallan to Melton via Hume Highway, Ring Road and Melton Highway and it took me 50 mins total.
Enough said :)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Messenger
Spoke to a chap last night who lives near me - we are approx. 125 kms east of Melb so you then need to add the distance from the tunnel to TP onto that.
He raced at the recent weekday meet and left the course at around 3:15pm - took him over four hours to get home.
Another quote from Les Carlyon's The Master:
The trotting trainers had their stables near the Showgrounds, which abutted the racecourse, and their names were as well known as those of the thoroughbred trainers. On Saturday nights 20,000 people sometimes turned up to watch the trots - no one called it harness racing then - on the tiny three-furlong Showgrounds track.
I know he is describing 'Flemington, the place' back in the 1950's BUT where did we go wrong
Too many different reasons but if you want to bring it back to a few;
1. We assumed that everything that happens in America is better (Let's face it, it's not)
2. Society changed and we didn't change with it
3. We lost the intimacy when we became obsessed with speed