Being controversial here but if winning punters is our lifeblood how much damage does an effort like Adore Me's do?
Being controversial here but if winning punters is our lifeblood how much damage does an effort like Adore Me's do?
I'd say a lot of damage Kev. Tickets confetti at the start! I'm sure there are people that believe, that if a horse stuffs up from no fault of its own at the start, bad luck. What happens when multiple horses stuff up at the start, and wipe out half the field? Either way, it's not a smart move when the risks are so high at the start IMO.
The recent HRA Wagering Report recommended that they be phased out but good luck with getting the participants to agree with that. Probably a case for stands for trotters but they gallop if you look sideways at them anyway.
Is the issue with pacers the lack of regular racing now? Our biggest event for the season is a stand, but outside of Country Cups, you don't see many year round to give horses the regular opportunity to get it right.
There was always usually an M0 Hcp or an M1 or better stand at MV on a Saturday night. 14 runners, wide open betting, keen, last man standing contests. And the horses were trained and educated for it.
Not saying they aren't now but you hardly see pacers from the tapes at the trials except to qualify. And the trotters that go around are in fields of four which enables them to qualify but doesn't give them the practise in a field of say 10 or 12 horses all with individual quirks.
Remember the situation a couple of years back when Smoken Up failed to qualify for the Hunter Cup as he didn't satisfy in a suitable qualifying race?
Perhaps like the Melbourne Cup where we have very few opportunities for our own "bread and butter" horses to work towards a start in it over the year, then scratch our heads when the cash goes overseas.
What you say is true Kyle but on the other hand I do not think they should be going to the races for practice - I wonder whether they are being trained and educated as much.
Admittedly it is extremely unlikely that the All Stars team would neglect this so last night's race just goes to illustrate the more hit and miss nature of SS racing (I know we get the occasional Mobile gallop too)
Just from a marketing/punting perspective I wondered whether the mishap that a SS can produce is something we can afford esp if it happens in our biggest race and burns a lot of punters who have many alternatives.
Then again the doggies dodgem car races don't seem to put the punters off so what am I on about LOL
Yes it is a difficult one - as an example the National Derby greyhound race last night was effectively over after 10 seconds when half the field scrambled over one another on the first corner. Just one of those things but I guess if you can avoid it (stands) then it's a different matter.
$126,000 STAB pool. Throw in NSW Pool, Tatts, TAB Fixed Odds and Corporates and conservative $500,000 wagered on the Hunter Cup. Given her odds a conservative $200,000 wagered on Adore Me.
How many more reasons do we need to abandon SS racing given Adore Me was a 'safe' option from the stand.
There was discussion on the forum during the week about walk up/stand starts and the inconsistency. It's inconsistent for different horses in the same race. Some better behaved ones have stood still and walk up 2m before tapes release, some worse behave horses and/or clever drivers get a 5m walk up and are ready to get into a trot/pace before the horse that stood nicely and only got a 2m walk up.
Some horses do the walk up and get left half a length or more behind still.
P.S Adore Me backer here. But I've had this opinion well before that.
50/50 Breno, I think there's Definitley a place for them as long as the very good horses are handicapped correctly.Quote:
Originally Posted by aussiebreno
hate them. Post #3 says it all.
Quote:
Originally Posted by brent_L
Has anything been implemented as a result of this survey? It has been around for a little while after all.
I think we are all smarting after last nights Hunter Cup upset but I've been going through some stats this morning that might make some sense, The Kiwi's have far more stand starts races over there than what we do here in Oz, Now our racing here has become very much focused on sprint to 2200m racing apart from a few Country Cups and the Interdom, Hunter Cup etc, I've got together some figures for races above 2400m and I'll start with the Kiwi's,
Arden Rooney 16
Franco Ledger 44
Easy On The Eye 20
Adore Me 12
Christen Me 16
Terror To Love 34
Aussie Horses
Restrepo 9
Guaranteed 3
Philadelphia Man 3
Beautide 16(13 of these in Tamania)
The figures are quite staggering and the Kiwi's definitley have a big advantage with their experience in standing starts and are far more experienced over the longer distance races.
Honesty up front I think standing start races are great. It may have something to do with my age but I absolutely think that there is and should be a place for stands in harness racing today and tomorrow. The thing to keep in mind is that it's not only the horses that need standing start education and practice, drivers need the same education and practice. Don't get me wrong I don't for one minute think that the reason any of the horses who galloped away last night was the fault of any driver. There was a time when anyone going for their licence had to complete in a certain number of stand trials and to get a signature you had to get the horse away not just be in the trial. There is none of that today. This not only educated the driver but horses also got more education. Not all horses are suited to stands and just because a horse steps away once it doesn't mean that the horse is ready or fit to start in a race. I think the game needs variety not boring mobile mile racing. Nothing gets up my nose more than hearing young drivers bleating on that a horse didn't go away. Nine times out of ten it's because the driver doesn't know how to get the horse away due to lack of education of the driver. The poor old stand gets the blame.
It's a skill knowing how to get a horse away from a stand. Rant over.
I am not really a punter nowadays Toni and therefore like you I like the variety (You have to hate nothing but mobile miles) - I suppose I asked the question in regards to whether they can cost the industry but turnover analysts should be able to calculate that.
I think your point about driver education is a very valid one. I suspect the trainer driver who has has ample opportunity to practise when working his charges at home may get more practice than many nowadays
Just want correct some misconceptions,
1) Adore Me has NEVER been a safe bet away from the stand in her life,.quite the opposite in fact.
2) "punters losing their dough on stands start races....they do their dough on horses that miss the start in mobiles also, just like gallopers have issues with the contraptions they make them go into in the name of a "fair start" and the dogs have similar issues and then wipe themselves and half the field out on the first corner in approximately 40% of races.
3) Standing start races hold less turnover than mobiles.... there is NO evidence to support that theory, in fact there is more evidence to support that more turnover is bet on stands...quite likely because there are fewer super short fav's in stands that stifle the betting.
Is there a problem with the quality of standing start races today??? OF COURSE there is and you don't have to be a Rhodes Scholar to work out why.
Standing starts were phased out during an era when the commercial breeders were having more influence on our game than they were entitled and why??? because they were chasing fast times against horses names to falsely raise the value of the stock they were marketing, which in turn had a negative effect on our game because it made purchasing a horse just that little bit harder and when you make it harder for people to participate they will find something else to do......and they DID!!!
Standing starts were the most effective way of handicapping standardbred racing when we were running sufficient of them for not only the horses to get educated, but much more importantly the trainers and drivers, fair dinkum you see MANY people driving today that have F___ing no idea ( blind elk mating) how to get a horse back in it's gear if it makes a break....when we had standing start races those people wouldn't get a drive! Not that it is rocket science, you just need to have the opportunity to learn.
Our game has many problems and one of them is too many short priced favourites and another is boring, boring, predictable racing, partly brought about by all mobile racing and the predictability of certain barrier draws.
If our game should EVER reintroduce more standing start racing it would not be the silver bullet that fixes everything, but would absolutely assist with handicapping given the smaller and smaller pool of horses we have for handicappers to work with. Provided the reintroduction was done very gradually and consisted of training trials not just for horses, but also for trainers and drivers.
Thats my rant over with...it is VERY easy to bag something if you don't understand it and I see most of the negative comments on here come from those that have not had the opportunity to do so.
cheers,
Dan
Good call Dan!Quote:
Originally Posted by Danno
And i agree with the significant stats of the NZ horses SS races and even more alarming lack of 2700m type distances for FFA horses or any grade horses in Australia.
+1Quote:
Originally Posted by Danno
So many of the books on past champions frequently refer to ...yd handicaps that they made up and it must have been exciting stuff and just like pro running - a perfect form of handicapping.
I don't remember such exciting handicaps from my visits to the Showgrounds in the early 70's but that could just as easily be my memory.
My main memory of handicap racing is the trotters and even recently at Ararat, I still found that exciting.
There have of course been the odd tough handicap in the pacers in 'fairly recent' days like Master Musician off 40m in the Hunter Cup, a couple of notable ones off 30m in the Kilmore Cup, etc and of of course NZ
Great points DanQuote:
Originally Posted by Danno
I also believe it's all factory training here in Australia at the moment -get them in get them going if they don't go get rid of them get the next one ,and the trainers don't put the effort into getting them ready for the stands
Ones I break in are perfect stand horses rarely gallop away couple of recent 2yo I've gotten look like they haven't had much standing so everything I do is a stand ,when I jog it's a standing start ,when I fast work it's a standing start , doesn't take them long to realise what you expect
Quote:
Originally Posted by djgood
Dead right Dave, and in my humble opinion this is being driven PARTLY by an over emphasis on 2YO racing where IMO there is just too much money and people are trying to get a piece of the action but in doing so the horses overall education is a little underdone. You can see why educating a young horse to stand gets neglected these days....their not asked to do it at the races so why bother??Next thing you know they get up in grade and your trying to teach an old horse new tricks!
Personally, I like mine to stand when I want them to just because they are easier to manage when they get a bit fired up, they know the command and they respond....and its not hard...takes about 2 minutes longer each day for each horse when they are worked in the cart, which for mine isn't every day as they often get slow days behind the jogger, which is also a great educational tool for mobiles.
Just adding my thoughts to what Richard said in #8, does seem contentious the Cup isn't a handicap, being a stand. I know, no point in what ifs but what if the mare was of a handicap, or if of the front with less horses (less pressure) and her being known to be iffy (Danno #14)...was she too short priced anyway?
I realise the title of the thread isn't specific to Saturday night but in regards to the Cup, possibly the two best credentialed stand horses did run one two although ironically Kez's horse missed the start a bit. Numerous other fancies failing to fire, even though getting away ok, has put the spotlight on stands via Adore Me?
Side note, I see Arden Rooney is now ODS. Seemed a bit harsh for a few hops and skips.
Edit: I don't think Kerryn or the Butterworth's will be too worried about AR's barrier moves...I'd be naming a dance move after it!
Kev,Quote:
Originally Posted by Messenger
we went to metric in racing in the early seventies, about 1973 I think, we changed to mostly mobile racing in the early eighties so there is not a big load of material on 10/15/20 metre handicaps in total. The inters in the late 70's early 80's had loads of these marks reserved for the likes of Pure Steel, Paleface ( I think he is entitled to a one word name) Hondo Grattan etc before we moved to mostly mobiles.
I think the really big handicaps that people saw years before that was probably brought about by factors such as distance...transport these days is quicker and safer ( I know my Dad's old mentor Perc Warby used to tell us stories about jogging his horses from Newcastle to Maitland and Cessnock for big events in the 20's and 30's.) roads are better etc and so the better horse were racing against locals and therefore needed to be heavily handicapped to ensure the races was not a farce.
A very good trotter Albey Logan, trained at Maitland by Noellene Kirkwood and driven by her husband Grahame who ran second in the 1979 Trotters Interdominion Grand Final at Addington used to race and win off marks of up to 100 metres locally in the Hunter Valley because he was just head and shoulders above any other Trotters here, the Kirkwoods took him away to race from time to time ( I think he won a Dullard cup at one stage) but like most people they had jobs to attend to so a life on the road tangling with the best week in week out was out of the question.
Cheers,
Dan
lets take tradition out of everything!!I don't think so!saturday nights race had every thing drama, excitement the lot.it fulfilled that any thing is possible in racing,i love stand start racing,they should bring the hunter cup back to a handicap,why do these generations want to change every thing? perhaps they would like our greatest horse race to be wfa?
I don't know whether anybody has noticed if ever you look up NZ race fields. You may notice Ur in the barrier position for many horses. This means the horse is classified unruly and is similar to ODS or ODM.
It may interest you to know that these classifications are 95% at the request of the trainer, mostly for the purposes of educating the horse in barrier manners.
Only 5% are banished there by the stewards.
As a side point, for me, teaching the horse to stand is part and parcel of the long reining process at breaking in. All work in the cart starts from pacing/trotting successfully away from a stand. A workout doesn't start from a gallop. (go back and start again.) You may say have the time for this but I learned it working in one of our biggest stables and see it at the more successful ones too. Getting this right early has paid dividends for me with my horses.
re the NZ horses in Saturday's Hunter Cup, all three of the big guns are prone to breaking stride at the start. TTL , never a real fast beginner at the best of times, made a real hash of the start to his third NZ Cup win which is what made it all the more meritorious, Franco Ledger has a penchant for bobbling away and both Adore Me and Christen Me have at best only 50% records at the stand which made me nervous as both have not seen a barrier strand on raceday since NZ Cup day and surrounded by Aussie horses who may see it only once a year. In hindsight Arden Rooney which can fairly be claimed an Aussie now as he has been granted "permanent residence" (so we can share the victory can't we?...LOL) has always been the best of them at the barrier.
As such, while practice should make perfect as they say, we are dealing with the unpredictable animal.
In Victoria, at least, a trainer used to be able to request ODM/S at the start of a horse's career, but not for a long while. Having been made OD you can choose to either requalify or race. A driver might be able to ease away from the start without breaching rules but if still tardy remain OD. Would need to check the rules if once made OD by the stewards you can request to remain OD.
As a theoretical, would any of the Kiwi trainers requested ODS Saturday night if they could?
only read the first to paragraphs of carhills post....i never thought i would ever agree with him on anything,but on this one i do....my father broke young harness horses in in the buisy streets in the middle of warrnambool...cars,bike riders,trucks and cheeky kids...he rolled his own smokes,cigarette holder and all,when he felt the need he would stop the youngster,put the riegns over his forearm pullout the havelock and roll his smoke....no mobile starts in those days...he was renowned for having horses with good barrier manners and getting 10yds on the rest...no matter what his horse could do,he always won the first half mile.
Longtime reader, first time poster.
I agree with the majority of what has been said here - horses not educated enough, same for the drivers, the differing methods of starting in each state, that it is the best method for handicapping etc.
However, the post asks whether there is a place for them with regards turnover. And I would say no to that question, unfortunately.
For those of us that grew up with them being commonplace, we are used to 'fallables'. But the modern gambling landscape has changed. And the product isnt as digestable for them. They are forever run late which makes them less palatable for Sky also. When I watch old replays, horses always missed away and always will so the education issue may well be moot.
I would take it a step further, and say that Im not certain that mobile racing(with 2 lines) even appeals to the 'rank and file', and its all to do with perception - rightly or wrongly.
In horse racing they all start in-line. Every horse has his chance to lead or take up a position that THEY WANT. Greyhound racing they all start in-line and each dog has its chance to lead should it be fast enough. But in Harness racing, if you draw the backline you are condemmed to a fate thats decided generally by the horses drawn in front of you. Its perception, and to the unitiated Harness racing form is complicated. Its is no where near as 'user friendly' as the dogs are - either as a punting medium or to broadcast.
They think if I have a bet at the footy, they start nil all and they wont break gate or gear after 2mins and the game will end.
My own thoughts are the harness racing will continue to struggle for relevence in the moden gambling landscape - the other modern day gambling options are just better as a product. Its a dinosaur from another time to most. I dont think sliding mobiles is the answer, and maybe if money was no object an infa-red beam or similar might be thw answer, but the game is struggling to pay for its self as it is.
The answer has to be in the handicapping. A ratings based system was mooted here in WA but like most modern ideas in Harness, its was killed by those that cant think outside the square. If we could at least start with a system that doesnt allow classic winners into C0's.....do you know how ridiculous this looks to 'joe blow in Tabland'.
Welcome aboard Jason!
Great post by Jason, this very much sums it all up. Having all Horses coming of the gate as one is what the younger person likes to see. Not having your investment controlled by what another horse you are following out decides to do. We need to find a much better form / method of how we handicap our horses. This is what HRNSW are trying to develop in NSW. We all have our feelings / thoughts on what is taking place in NSW. I do feel what we have today can and will develop into what is needed to take our sport into the future. Having said that we need to find answers to the issues we don't agree with and at the same time continue to be progressive and constructive in our thoughts and ideas, as it is a massive issue in taking our sport in the right direction for others to be drawn into our great sport.
"I would take it a step further, and say that Im not certain that mobile racing(with 2 lines) even appeals to the 'rank and file', and its all to do with perception - rightly or wrongly.
In horse racing they all start in-line. Every horse has his chance to lead or take up a position that THEY WANT. Greyhound racing they all start in-line and each dog has its chance to lead should it be fast enough. But in Harness racing, if you draw the backline you are condemmed to a fate thats decided generally by the horses drawn in front of you. Its perception, and to the unitiated Harness racing form is complicated. Its is no where near as 'user friendly' as the dogs are - either as a punting medium or to broadcast"
Top post Jason. The above is a real crunch point
Jason makes some great points, in particular the last one.... If we could at least start with a system that doesnt allow classic winners into C0's.....do you know how ridiculous this looks to 'joe blow in Tabland'.
I would like to also say that if all horses coming off the gate together was what people are keen to see, then why does the turnover at tracks like Menangle and Newcastle not display this preference? It clearly doesn't I'm not defending two tier starts, just making the point that needs to be made if the debate is going to be fair dinkum.
Certainly in NSW our handicapping is struggling to create open contests which maximise turnover and NSW is not on it's own in that department. The latest initiative to compile fields from a bank of nominations does not seem to be working unfortunately, I was/am one of the people who was keen to see it make the right sort of difference but I am beginning to change my stance as i can't see a significant reduction in the number of odds on pops.
I would like to make one very strong point....we need to engage younger people in order for the game to remain relevant into the future and we need to take into account what younger people see, say and do......what we also need to take into account is to remember our own attitudes when we were the same age...I know I was inclined to form my opinions much more quickly than I do now and I see the same in my kids...it's a part of growing up and should NOT be ignored but taken into the balance of things.
I know I am beating on an old drum of mine about standing starts and make no apology about that as I believe there is a place for a greater number of stands in the game, it was run out of town by people who thought they had something to gain...but in fact getting rid of stands was just one many bullets to the foot our game has hit itself with.
I know I am asking people to accept some thinking that is contrary to everything they have heard in the last twenty five years, but we need open minds if we are going to resurrect/save our game.
As I said in my earliest post on this subject, look at the starting methods of the dogs and gallopers, they are flawed as well so the argument that the starting method is the silver bullet for our games woes does not hold water in my humble opinion, we have issues on a number of fronts and the current biggest problem is too many short priced favourites stiffling betting, partly because our racing is TOO PREDICTABLE.
I think our administrators need to start focussing on this factor more than they ever have.
cheers,
Dan.
Wayne, Can't open that one mate.
Quote:
Originally Posted by aussiebreno
:cool:
What do you think Wayne - did our forum prompt this survey :confused:
just read the results of this survey, around 600 respondants and overall people are in favour of Stands (73%) but would like to see them better done?? no surprises there to me,good to see a healthy number pf respondants, at least.
Good to see this result, dare I say people like a variety of race types.
Sorry I can't do a link for this info, but with permission from HRV I think it's worth a read.
Thank you to everyone who took part in our recent survey on standing start racing in Victoria.
Overall we had 827 responses to the survey, which aimed to gauge the views of industry participants, punters and trots followers as to whether there was still a place for standing start racing in our sport.
We have tallied the results and will present them in this email, along with some of the comments that were written by some of the survey respondents.
It is clear from this survey that the majority of respondents feel there is a place for standing start racing in Victorian harness racing.
However, while the vast majority of respondents felt standing start racing does belong on our calendar the strong view from almost all respondents was that standing start races need to be "successful".
The opinion of both those in favour of standing start racing and those against it was that horses galloping away from the stand start is not a good look for harness racing and situations like favourite Adore Me galloping out in the Hunter Cup aren't a good look for our sport.
HRV is always interested in hearing the views of participants, owners and punters and once again we thank everyone who took part in this survey.
Q1: Is there a place for standing start racing in the modern sporting environment?
Yes: 610 (73.76%)
No: 217 (26.24%)
Q2: Should there be more or less standing start races in Victoria?
More: 355 (42.93%)
Less: 241 (29.14%)
No change: 231 (27.93%)
Q3: Does the fact that a race is a standing start race influence the amount you bet on that race?
Bet more: 106 (12.82%)
Bet less: 229 (27.69%)
No difference: 492 (59.49%)
Some of the comments
"Standing starts allow horses to be handicapped which should promote more competitive racing and fewer short-priced favourites."
"More value in standing start races."
"Constant mobile racing is boring. Standing start races give a variety."
"People never know what the horse could do in the standing start when the tapes release."
"There is too much uncertainty."
"(I) don't bet on standing start races at all."
Q4: Should the Hunter Cup remain a standing start race?
Yes: 594 (71.83%)
No: 217 (26.24%)
No opinion: 16 (1.93%)
Some of the comments
"I think the stand start gives a point of difference to other feature races."
"History is important."
"It's a tradition."
"Tradition is the key to our success."
"The elite level should race as a mobile."
"No. Harness racing needs to get out of the dark ages."
"The Hunter Cup is ruined by standing starts."
"Only trotting races should have standing starts, not pacing events."
"It is raced under NZ conditions for NZ horses giving them Australian money."
Q5: Should the Hunter Cup remain at 3280 metres or be reduced to 2760 metres?
Remain 3280m: 631 (83.47%)
Reduce to 2760m: 113 (14.95%)
Other: 12 (1.59%)
Some of the comments
"I like the distance. It gives every horse a chance to win the race."
"We have too many short races."
"A good staying contest adds to the diversity of racing we are lucky to experience. There are plenty of shorter races for the top grade already."
"Make it 2200m to 2400m."
"Perhaps as there are not many longer races these days it would be better at 2760m as horses are not used to running the extra distance."
Copyright © 2015 Harness Racing Victoria, All rights reserved.
You are receiving this email because you are on HRV’s database listed as either an owner, trainer, driver, media, licensed person or associate with Harness Racing Victoria.
Our mailing address is:
Harness Racing Victoria
P O Box 184
Moonee Ponds, VIC 3039
Australia
Standing Starts highlight the skill of the trainer and driver in the training of the horse. Many an average horse has become competitive from the stand. If you want a recent example, click on the final of the Mt Gambier Gold Cup from Saturday Week and watch the great Jim Barker lead the, a merry dance from the stand on Magical Bazz. A limited pacer, but a cup winner in his own right. The Barkers and others of their ilk (master horsemen) are experts at making average horses competitive through education in stands. There should be more of them. If we follow the yanks all the time we will end up in the same place they are.
The question in the title is whether they are a good way of attracting punters. Is there any likelihood that a casual punter burnt eg. Hunter Cup, steer away from SS races or even harness altogether?