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What are your feelings about the changes in the harness whip rules over the last year or so?
Personally, I am quite happy with them now myself, but have the feeling from talking to some harness "people" that they think that reverting back to how it used to be in the "good old days" would be better.
I most certainly do not share their opinion , and have expressed that vigorously on a couple of occasions (usually after one or two drinks!)
I think that it makes a lot of the driving look a bit ungainly & unbalanced a lot of the time.
That being said I don't think unloading on a horse is the best way to get it rolling anyway so that's a small price to pay. The really talented drivers I've seen over the years don't need to flog them to get them to give their best. Loud noises, shouting is just as good or a couple of serious cracks of the whip on the wheel disk/shaft/dust sheet even, that does a lot more to shift them than slashing away like some half arsed Samurai.
I can remember the not so long ago bad old days where they'd come off the track with welts on their rears, sometimes pretty decent sized cuts etc. and some of the really mean pricks around thought nothing of landing really hard stifle shots on them etc. Good riddance to all of that. Thankfully I haven't seen anything that was even remotely like it in recent times.
Yes, good riddance to that. I well remember a few years back , and cringe thinking about it now , a 2YO filly having it's first race start was flogged with the whip 66 times in the last 600 metres. Utterly disgraceful.
Another thing I have noticed on occasions recently , is drivers choosing to not use the whip hardly at all , in the straight shouting and shaking and pulling the reins high in the air seems to be having the effect of horses actually throwing their head back. This is especially noticeable in tight finishes.
It seems to me that some drivers are getting too excited and overly animated with the reins and are actually having the effect of pulling the horse's head back and upwards. That really , I don't think , does anything other than confuse the horse.
I hate seeing Drivers jumping up and down in the sulky, just hate it. Don't they realise what it is doing to the momentum of the horse? It really is a pet hate of mine. I think anyone who drives like this should carry a driver in the sulky and see how it puts them off stride. I know this from countless years of pretending to be a horse at home as a kid and pulling my friends around in Dad's sulkies. Watch a race at globe and you will see a couple of drivers in every race do this.
as far as whip rules I love seeing the horses only being tapped up and not flogged. Much more appealing to the eye.
That whole routine of flapping about in the bike like an errantly caught and recently dragged aboard Stingray does absolutely nothing good for a horse's momentum.
The adopted tactic of some by way using the lines in a kind of flapping motion akin to the way you might try from a distance to clear your garden hose of a snag is ridiculous as well. All that seems to happen is the lines yank on the horse's mouth not surprisingly causing it to then throw its head up in their air & backward in response.
Each horse to their own really. Some need a few to remind them there in a race. I hate seeing a bloke flog a horse when its 50m behind the leader. Its cruel. However Im all for the rule were after the 200 you can cross em and go for your life. As long as the horse is competitive and looking like earning a cheque than I think it should be up to the drivers opinion. Ive seen few drivers get 2 weeks recently and it didnt really warrent 2 weeks on the sideline which can cost someone $1000 bucks plus. So basicly if your gonna earn, have a go. But it is true, you can flog some of them as much as you want, they arent going to run any faster or try any harder. As for the flopping around in the gig, yeah its does get a bit much sometimes, but once again each horse to their own.
you 2 fellars must not watch drivers whip actions much
rule is flicking motion only whip not to go past drivers head
stay inside sulky not to the out side of sulky oh yes go have
look at horses being washed you will see welt markes
I feel as long as there are no welts, then the horses have not been hit too hard. I'm with Triple V with this one.
Love the whip rule you guys have got. I agree that seeing drivers throwing their arms, bodies, heads around like some African highland tribal dance does nothing to help a horses balance. Take a look at the best drivers and you'll find none of them do that.
Totally agree that the odd horse needs a reminder every now and then. I have one at the moment that if you go out a drive her with the reins she gives you nothing, in fact she will stop and smell the roses. A simple flick with the stick and she switches on.
We had a good racemare that was a bit laid back at times and she needed some sort of a jazz up in the prelim. in order for her to put her game face on. The trick was to wander out like it was just a training trip then catch her unaware by yelling/banging the shaft/dust sheet/wheel disk etc. Another good one was to pull up right alongside one of those thin metal sponsor's signs and give it a good solid kick or whack it with the whip. BANG! It was just like turning on a light switch. In time, when she got used to that sort of routine, we'd put her in the bike the day before a race & let her gallop flat out for as far as she wanted to go. That used to work a treat too. Changing it up on them in a race can do wonders also...as long as you let the Stewards know your intentions prior to the race, of course. :p
I had a filly a few years ago who would not go unless I ran the handle of my whip along the corrugated iron fence surrounding the track. Oneday one of the young girls who used to help me took her out and when I came onto the track the girl was yelling and urging the filly to move forward. Later when the filly raced she didn't need the running of the whip along the fence but always needed urging verbally.
I dont mind the rule, but its governance is inconsistent and a shamble. No mention of G Hall Jnr hitting Our Toto no less than 20 times in the Gloucester Park straight on Friday night. How is this not excessive? That is every 7 metres on the 140 metre straight.
Anyone old enough to remember the bad old days of the cane whip will realise that the whip rules have improved immensly. I think it's just the interpretation of the rules that need some work.
I agree. The days of the cane whips were 110% animal cruelty.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucky Camilla"s Lovechild
Digging up an old thread here I know but some drivers whip actions appear as though they are beating the horse - just have a look at little Kerryn giving it to Gotta Go Yanky winning the 3rd at Melton tonight
http://www.harness.org.au/meeting-re...ic#MXM14081511
I don't think it is a good look
Kerryn appeared to hit that horse a fair bit from the point of the corner to the finishing line, No not a good look at all Kev but to be fair, A friend pointed out that she also hit the shaft a lot.
From HRV Integrity Department. 17 August 2015
Whip Use
Drivers are not currently permitted to use the whip in a freehand manner prior to the 200m and whip use at any time within a race or trial is required to conform to the provisions set out under Rule 156(3)(b). Most importantly, a wrist and elbow flicking action is required, regardless of whether a driver crosses his / her reins to use the whip.
At the recent Chairmen of Stewards conference, the use of the whip was discussed and some proposed Rule changes were considered. Before any implementation, these proposed Rule changes will need to be endorsed and approved by the Harness Racing Australia (HRA) Executive members, however for all drivers’ awareness, the proposed changes to the whip rules may include, but not be limited to:
Please note: These are only proposals, however further notice will be given prior to any permanent change to the current whip rules. HRV Stewards will in the interim maintain a proactive approach to ensure that drivers comply with the required whip action and furthermore that any whip use is not “excessive” in frequency or the overall number of occasions in which the whip is utilised.
- A requirement to maintain a rein in each hand unless activating gear;
- Not applying the whip in a continuous manner or without allowing the horse time to respond.
I have looked at that rule a few times Wayne.
They need to leave out the elbow bit and make it simply wrist flicking action and enforce the non-continuous /allow the horse time to respond part and problem solved
ps Kerryn was fined $400 for it was her second offence in a month
....HRV Stewards will in the interim maintain a proactive approach to ensure that drivers comply with the required whip action and furthermore that any whip use is not “excessive” in frequency or the overall number of occasions in which the whip is utilised. The stewards are enforcing the rules Kev, a 'la $400 fine.Quote:
Originally Posted by Messenger
Furthermore, the proposals would help address the look? A requirement to maintain a rein in each hand unless activating gear; Not applying the whip in a continuous manner or without allowing the horse time to respond
Thinking further on the over use of whips, I wonder whether connections of a horse could ever protest against an opponent on the grounds that the driver broke the rules through over-use of the whip?
It has been done Kev. 2011 Ballarat cup.Quote:
Originally Posted by Messenger
http://www.harness.org.au/stewards-r...fm?mc=BA290111
Thanks Nate - very interesting. I can see their dilemma but the margin was only a HD so I would like them to err AGAINST the offenderQuote:
Originally Posted by Njcstables
http://www.harness.org.au/meeting-re...A290111&ms=vic
Quote:
Originally Posted by Messenger
I would like them to err AGAINST the offender. To the letter of the law, both drivers offended Kev. The other for free reining.
In this case Wayne but it would be interesting to see some balls when there is only one offender
You have to say looking at Prix d' Amerique how any whips are barely noticeable
Is it any wonder that no one is going to trots. It's not just because of TV either. I used to take my girls to Harold Park often when they were younger. I live a couple of hundred metres from the atrocity it is now but as they got older and got into it more it really upset them to see their favourite horses "flogged". By 13 and 14 they weren't interested anymore and were bemused I was.
I was taking a look at the results from last night and see that A M Grives was reprimanded for unacceptable whip use. I counted and I'm pretty sure I missed a few, no less than 60 strikes on Lochinvar, which included a short pause probably because her arm had gone numb.
Up at Albion Park, K L Dawson on Destreos. 12yo, nearly 400th start in a race and she gave it a flogging up the straight.
Now we can debate whether in both instances it made a difference. Would Lochinvar have finished 3rd and would Destreos of held on, probably not but who knows ?
This is I do know. For quite a few months in the year I'm fortunate to watch some of the best drivers in the world in action around The Meadowlands and Yonkers. The whip is used but sparingly. The majority of our best aren't prolific users either.
Real action is required. Education, fines, suspensions and the odd relegation in severe cases. It's a blight on an industry suffering an identity crisis with younger racegoers.
Bring back Beattie .He was very proactive in enforcing the whip rule plus many others that seem to be in the too hard basket.
http://www.harness.org.au/news-artic...?news_id=29141
The rules and a new video are linked to this article.
No mention of penalties
The essence of the rule which needs to be enforced is 156.4e - that the whip can only be used in a flicking motion
Greg Sugars is pretty impressive on the video
Check out Mark Pitt's whip action on Gumdrops
It was a cracker of a race
I wonder when a horse might lose a race because of incorrect whip use - maybe never as that margin was a SHFD in a group race
http://www.harness.org.au/meeting-re...ic#MXM07051605
Watching Kerryn win the 5th at Hamilton today.
She may be able to argue that she is only using wrist and elbow but there is no way that it is the required 'flicking motion'
What do you think? What effect will it have? Do you agree?
http://www.harness.org.au/news-artic...?news_id=31814
Wtf?
http://www.harness.org.au/news-artic...?news_id=31814
Mr Want said many drivers were concerned that control over a horse would be curtailed without a whip, especially when horses shy (leap sideways) or back up. He said HRA Executive accepted the challenges the ban presented for ensuring safety was maintained for drivers, people, horses, trainers, stablehands, and people nearby.
“Between now and the implementation of the whip ban, we will consult widely in the industry, especially with drivers and trainers, and with animal welfare advocates, such as the RSPCA,” Mr Want said.
“Whatever tool evolves from this process it will only be allowed to avoid or guide a horse out of a dangerous situation to itself, other horses, drivers or anyone nearby."
Australia’s leading driver – and 11-times winner of the national drivers’ championship – Chris Alford said he supported the ban.
“Drivers are very sensitive to their horses and appreciate and support moves to ensure high standards of animal welfare that are aligned with community expectations,” he said.
“We also know that a shying horse is a danger to itself, drivers, people and other horses nearby. I fully support the decision to ban the whip, plus maintain safety for all involved”."
http://www.harness.org.au/news-artic...?news_id=31814
bye bye harness racing its nearly over............
What does this do to the breeding? It is the biggest game changer ever! Some stallions careers will be over in 9 months time. More horses getting turned to dog meat as they wont try. Less horses to make it to track. how can this be a good thing? I have 9 months left with one of my horses of racing as she doesn't try without the whip. she will be retired when ban comes in. What happens to track records? New records without the whip? What a dumb decision to please the people who don't support the industry!
Everywhere we turn the governing bodies make decisions for the industry. every year it gets harder!!! ..........they dont name the sources of there studies ? or are they what a chosen few think will be good and and excellent speech writer attempting to get the participants to believe what is said.
Turnover ? Horses ? all going to be improved ? doubtful..............As other threads have said in the past there are fewer horses bred............fields are smaller (I have no Evidence) but it seems i could make a study up to reflect this.
We the Industry Participants need to see this evidence and now before this great sport disapears.
Taking the whip away from drivers is like taking the whip away from Madame Lash in her sado masochistic dungeon . Its just not going to be the same.
One would hope that a sensible, well thought through, new set of rules for whip use is where we are going, this announcement displays a want for diplomacy, a want for consultation, a want for a sensible way forward and it seems a want to please the RSPCA rather than a want to learn some half decent problem solving skills.
What I want to know is who wants Want? damn sure I don't.
That would just be going too far Trish :-)Quote:
Originally Posted by trish